7 or 8 inning Pitchers

[Lifelong Fan]

I think we should start an effort in the minors to groom pitchers to go 7 or 8 innings. At least 7 should be expected. When scouting other Major League pitchers for trades and free agent moves we should look at guys who would look to finish games. The days of looking over your shoulder, when you have a lead after five should be over. If we started in this direction we would have to spend less money in the bullpen, less manager's time spent on pitching change strategy and a need for 1 or 2 less pitchers which would increase bench strength.

Your thoughts?

[BRNXBMRS]

I always thought thats the way to go, If the pitcher is pitching well why take him out. This would be bad for Proctor b/c he wouldnt get used in the blow outs.

[cmaff05]

I always thought thats the way to go, If the pitcher is pitching well why take him out. This would be bad for Proctor b/c he wouldnt get used in the blow outs.

Joe, for anybody not named Randy Johnson, had a problem with them pitching any more than 100 pitches. I believe all of our pitchers should be able to go upwards of 110 pitches.

[Driveblind]

I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge of how pitching works. I mean, stamina is important...but the reason why certain pitchers go 7-9 innings is because they have great command of their pitches and throw lots of strikes and dont waste too many per inning (see Halladay, Wang). The only thing the Yankees can do as an organization is target pitchers who throw strikes (Hughes and Clippard are good examples so far), and make sure they take care of their arms as they come up the ranks.

[Ducky]

I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge of how pitching works. I mean, stamina is important...but the reason why certain pitchers go 7-9 innings is because they have great command of their pitches and throw lots of strikes and dont waste too many per inning (see Halladay, Wang). The only thing the Yankees can do as an organization is target pitchers who throw strikes (Hughes and Clippard are good examples so far), and make sure they take care of their arms as they come up the ranks.

Why in the world does this post mean he doesn't know anything about pitching. What makes you so qualified, or are you just being a jackass.

[Driveblind]

Hes saying we need to groom them to go 8 innings, like theres some magical method of grooming pitchers to pitch a certain amount of innings, or that some organizations groom their pitchers to only go 5 innings. Thanks for the useful input though

[Ducky]

Hes saying we need to groom them to go 8 innings, like theres some magical method of grooming pitchers to pitch a certain amount of innings, or that some organizations groom their pitchers to only go 5 innings. Thanks for the useful input though

I know what he said... I just didn't think there was any reason to dog him.
You're welcome.

[Taylor]

people need to ignore the 100 pitches and your done philosophy and alot of pitchers would be 7 or 8 inning pitchers

since there is alot more invested young guys don't throw 130+ pitches anymore

[Taylor]

I'm guessing you don't have much knowledge of how pitching works. I mean, stamina is important...but the reason why certain pitchers go 7-9 innings is because they have great command of their pitches and throw lots of strikes and dont waste too many per inning (see Halladay, Wang). The only thing the Yankees can do as an organization is target pitchers who throw strikes (Hughes and Clippard are good examples so far), and make sure they take care of their arms as they come up the ranks.

im guessing you don't

the current era of baseball has a 7 inning pitcher, a setup man, and a closer

starters are only asked to go 6 these days and anything else is a bonus. Aces usually can stay in longer because they're aces and they're just flat out dominant but for the regular average pitcher, today people are happy with 6.

I dont agree with it but that's the way it is

[BRNXBMRS]

Hes saying we need to groom them to go 8 innings, like theres some magical method of grooming pitchers to pitch a certain amount of innings, or that some organizations groom their pitchers to only go 5 innings. Thanks for the useful input though

There is a magical method of 100 pitches per start for some reason.

[Rob Rocco]

There is a magical method of 100 pitches per start for some reason.

Unless you're old enough to throw a knuckle-ball

[ymike673]

Joe, for anybody not named Randy Johnson, had a problem with them pitching any more than 100 pitches. I believe all of our pitchers should be able to go upwards of 110 pitches.

I agree with you. Other than Randy, Joe seems to think no one can go over 80 pitches. 20 years ago a pitcher could have a rough 1st and 2nd inning and then settle down and pitch a complete game. Now whenever one of our pitchers gets to the 7th inning Joe has the hook ready even if the pitcher had retired 10 in a row.

[ryanm1058123]

I love how people say; oh we should make our pitchers throw 130 or 140 pitches and throw more innings just because we need it! Lets ignore all the evidence that throwing that many pitches how pitchers are conditioned these days leads to TJ and other types of arm injuries

[AlbanyColonieYankee]

I love how people say; oh we should make our pitchers throw 130 or 140 pitches and throw more innings just because we need it! Lets ignore all the evidence that throwing that many pitches how pitchers are conditioned these days leads to TJ and other types of arm injuries

So what should the solution to that be - to continue with the pitch counts or to look at the conditioning programs to see if there is any way to change that?

[ryanm1058123]

The amount of pitchers needed nowadays plus the cost of pitchers nowadays means the pitch count limit is here to say.

[ymike673]

I love how people say; oh we should make our pitchers throw 130 or 140 pitches and throw more innings just because we need it! Lets ignore all the evidence that throwing that many pitches how pitchers are conditioned these days leads to TJ and other types of arm injuries

Maybe not 130-140 but I don't see why our starters can't throw 100-110. I saw quite a few opposing pitchers able to reach that mark in Sept. The Yankees should be pitching guys more innings in the minors. There is no reason a young pitcher can't throw 100 pitches when he gets to triple A. Guys used to throw over 100 pitches on 3 days rest. Why can't pitchers equal that total today when they are working on 5-6 days rest between starts.

[Taylor]

I love how people say; oh we should make our pitchers throw 130 or 140 pitches and throw more innings just because we need it! Lets ignore all the evidence that throwing that many pitches how pitchers are conditioned these days leads to TJ and other types of arm injuries

theres no evidence that throwing 130 pitches causes arm injuries. That's just a meaningless assumption with NO evidence to back it up. What causes arm injuries is not conditioning the arm to throw 130 pitches which you did address. When you arm fatigues your mechanics change, many pitchers drop their arm, or they begin to sling their arm which obviously can cause alot more stress on the elbow or shoulder depending on the individual and his original mechanics

Its just like running. You don't just go run a marathon, you train for a marathon, you condition for a marathon, you build up your endurance and strength.

Pitchers today are pampered. The best pitching coach in history Leo Mazilli preaches to throw every single day. He's the one that created the little analogy I used.

[ryanm1058123]

everybody throws their pitchers 100 pitches.. i'm not sure what you mean. joe torre occasionally takes them out early but most managers make their pitchers throw 100 pitches to 105

[Taylor]

Maybe not 130-140 but I don't see why our starters can't throw 100-110. I saw quite a few opposing pitchers able to reach that mark in Sept. The Yankees should be pitching guys more innings in the minors. There is no reason a young pitcher can't throw 100 pitches when he gets to triple A. Guys used to throw over 100 pitches on 3 days rest. Why can't pitchers equal that total today when they are working on 5-6 days rest between starts.

Because they're not throwing 100 pitches hard on 3 days rest and they're only doing it every 5 days. People think it can prolong careers but genetics, hard work, knowledge, and luck prolong careers, not limited pitch counts.

[Taylor]

and btw, the new pitch count rule in little league is stupid as well. I think its 60? Maybe 70? Players won't even be able to pitch complete games in little league now if they have one lengthy inning.

[ymike673]

Because they're not throwing 100 pitches hard on 3 days rest and they're only doing it every 5 days. People think it can prolong careers but genetics, hard work, knowledge, and luck prolong careers, not limited pitch counts.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Plenty of pitchers today have TJ that do not throw 140 pitches in a game. There is no corilation between pitch count and if you injury your arm.

[In Mo I Trust]

theres no evidence that throwing 130 pitches causes arm injuries. That's just a meaningless assumption with NO evidence to back it up. What causes arm injuries is not conditioning the arm to throw 130 pitches which you did address. When you arm fatigues your mechanics change, many pitchers drop their arm, or they begin to sling their arm which obviously can cause alot more stress on the elbow or shoulder depending on the individual and his original mechanics

Source?

[Taylor]

That's the point I'm trying to make. Plenty of pitchers today have TJ that do not throw 140 pitches in a game. There is no corilation between pitch count and if you injury your arm.

I thought you were saying there was evidence 130 pitches causes arm injuries any moreso then throwing 50 pitches causes an arm injury

[Taylor]

Source?

What part do you want a source for.

For arm conditioning you can read Leo Mazzone's book, i said Mazilli first cause I always mix those two names up

as far as arm fatigue, you can just watch any game and its easy to see pitchers start dropping down. I thought that was common sense

[ymike673]

and btw, the new pitch count rule in little league is stupid as well. I think its 60? Maybe 70? Players won't even be able to pitch complete games in little league now if they have one lengthy inning.

The only thing that should be banned in little league is throwing curve balls. Now they are mandating pitch counts for everyone. Home come when kids played on sandlots all day there arms were not hurt? By the next generation I guess the pitch count number will be 50 and pitching staffs will have.have 20 guys on it.

[CUBuffEQMgr]

This thread is absurd. I'm sure you all know that hitters these days work the counts more than ever before because of the new found importance of OBP. Therefore, pitchers have to throw lots of hi-lev pitches earlier in the game and get more fatigued even though they might be throwing less pitches. Pitchers might be throwing 100 pitches, but in 4, 5, or 6 innings. Such examples of lineups are the '03, '04, and '05 Red Sox/Yankees and the present-day Toronto Blue Jays, Oakland A's, and NY Mets. The exception to this rule is the free-swinging Detroit Tigers. The '03 Red Sox was the best lineup of all-time as well, btw.

[In Mo I Trust]

What part do you want a source for.

For arm conditioning you can read Leo Mazzone's book, i said Mazilli first cause I always mix those two names up

as far as arm fatigue, you can just watch any game and its easy to see pitchers start dropping down. I thought that was common sense

This isn't my field, but I thought most of the research done by BP concluded that high pitch counts lead to arm problems, and that no amount of rest can fix the damage.

[Taylor]

This isn't my field, but I thought most of the research done by BP concluded that high pitch counts lead to arm problems, and that no amount of rest can fix the damage.

lack of knowledge, lack of conditioning lead to arm problems. I dont have any evidence to back up the following but this is what I feel.


Today guys throw
1. "light bullpen sessions"
2. "long toss" - but the long toss is a light toss to stretch the arm, and go through the motions and mechanics. To over emphasize everything.
3. They may have one regular session of maybe 50 pitches probably throwing 90% effort.
4. I've read many organizations won't let their pitches throw ANY breaking pitches during non-game days.


so you have "preparations" like that between starts. Plus you have some running exercises and work with the weights, probably two days with rotator cuff specific exercises.

But anyway, if we're looking mainly at the throwing aspect of it, pitchers do something like what I mentioned between starts. Then every 5th day they're expected to go out 100%, they break off those curveballs and sliders. They throw 100+ pitches. They push themselves past their limit.

IF they were conditioned to pitch 150 pitches, and they threw hard everyday like the old days I don't think there would be nearly as many problems.

Its EXACTLY like running. If you just go out and try to run a marathon your going to fail. Your going to get dehydrated, your legs are going to be wobbly and give out on you, your not going to be able to take in enough oxygen, and your more then likely going to collapse at a certain point because your not prepared for a marathon. It's like going to a track and jogging two laps everyday to prepare for a marathon.

[Random]

I agree with you. Other than Randy, Joe seems to think no one can go over 80 pitches. 20 years ago a pitcher could have a rough 1st and 2nd inning and then settle down and pitch a complete game. Now whenever one of our pitchers gets to the 7th inning Joe has the hook ready even if the pitcher had retired 10 in a row.

I agree, except for the "other than Randy" part. He typically pulls Randy at 100 pitches as well -- for the year he averaged about 97-98, when his last year in AZ he averaged about 115. He may give Randy *a little* more leeway, but not much.

[Random]

http://actasports.com/sow.php?id=68

This article shows that the more pitches thrown per start early in the season, the BETTER the ERA later in the season.

I agree with the others who have said 100 pitches is meaningless. Bill James said it best when he said (paraphrasing) that throwing a lot of pitches is not bad, throwing pitches with bad mechanics is.

If you are at 110 pitches, and you are still holding your mechanics, there is no reason to pull you.

Look at some of the 40+ pitchers: Randy, Clemens, etc. They routinely threw 120+ pitches in a game. It's worth noting that Randy has NEVER had an injury to his arm or shoulder.

[In Mo I Trust]

Pitchers in part don't throw as many pitches because, for the most part, your 7th or 8th inning guy is more effective than your starter after 110-115 pitches.

[Random]

Pitchers in part don't throw as many pitches because, for the most part, your 7th or 8th inning guy is more effective than your starter after 110-115 pitches.

That's one of the rationales that is often used, but I don't know that I agree. The only reason a starter is not effective after 110 is because he's never allowed to throw 110. You have to build up the arm strength first, but once you do, there is no reason you would pitch worse at that pitch count.

[In Mo I Trust]

That's one of the rationales that is often used, but I don't know that I agree. The only reason a starter is not effective after 110 is because he's never allowed to throw 110. You have to build up the arm strength first, but once you do, there is no reason you would pitch worse at that pitch count.

There is no reason you'd pitch worse after already throwing 110 pitches? I don't agree, it probably varies from pitcher to pitcher, but many will tire.

This topic kind of bugs me, if it was so easy to stretch out pitchers, some organization would already be doing it.

[Taylor]

There is no reason you'd pitch worse after already throwing 110 pitches? I don't agree, it probably varies from pitcher to pitcher, but many will tire.

no, you pitch worse after you become fatigued. if you condition yourself to throw over 110 pitches then you shouldn't be fatigued at that point. When you get tired is when you start dropping down, that's when your breaking pitches lose their snap and start consistently hanging.

Now because of lack of conditioning pitchers may be fatigued at 110 but the point is it shouldn't be a set number, and pitch count should have nothing to do with pulling a pitch or limiting a pitcher. Even a guy who can easily throw 130 can get tired at 80 pitches depending on what he ate, the heat of the day, the amount of sleep he got the night before, etc....and Vice versa, a pitcher like Jaret Wright who never hardly pitches 100 could pitch 130 one day. Jaret Wright as never given that chance even when he WAS effective at 100 pitches and clearly not yet fatigued.

[Taylor]

This topic kind of bugs me, if it was so easy to stretch out pitchers, some organization would already be doing it.

They have already done it, look at the list of 300 game winners. Like i said, todays pitchers are pampered because of the $$$ and people are scared to push anybody but in fact they're doing more harm then good by not pushing the limits.

[In Mo I Trust]

They have already done it, look at the list of 300 game winners.

They don't do it anymore.

[In Mo I Trust]

no, you pitch worse after you become fatigued. if you condition yourself to throw over 110 pitches then you shouldn't be fatigued at that point. When you get tired is when you start dropping down, that's when your breaking pitches lose their snap and start consistently hanging.

Now because of lack of conditioning pitchers may be fatigued at 110 but the point is it shouldn't be a set number, and pitch count should have nothing to do with pulling a pitch or limiting a pitcher. Even a guy who can easily throw 130 can get tired at 80 pitches depending on what he ate, the heat of the day, the amount of sleep he got the night before, etc....and Vice versa, a pitcher like Jaret Wright who never hardly pitches 100 could pitch 130 one day. Jaret Wright as never given that chance even when he WAS effective at 100 pitches and clearly not yet fatigued.

Conditioning is better now than it has ever been in the history of sports. Wright's numbers this year got increasingly worse as his pitch count increased (this has been discussed in another thread). If there is an easy solution that we (non experts) can figure out, I don't see why it wouldn't already be employed.

[BronxBaumer]

Maybe not 130-140 but I don't see why our starters can't throw 100-110. I saw quite a few opposing pitchers able to reach that mark in Sept. The Yankees should be pitching guys more innings in the minors. There is no reason a young pitcher can't throw 100 pitches when he gets to triple A. Guys used to throw over 100 pitches on 3 days rest. Why can't pitchers equal that total today when they are working on 5-6 days rest between starts.

That's why pitchers in the past had notoriously shortenned careers.

[Random]

If there is an easy solution that we (non experts) can figure out, I don't see why it wouldn't already be employed.

See the book "The Wisdom of Crowds" by James Surowiecki.

[BronxBaumer]

They have already done it, look at the list of 300 game winners. Like i said, todays pitchers are pampered because of the $$$ and people are scared to push anybody but in fact they're doing more harm then good by not pushing the limits.

It's called Albert Belle Syndrome. The fact of the matter is, if I can protect my investment in a pitcher by allowing him to pitch 100 pitches instead of 120, then you better believe my sweet ass that I will. Not to mention the fact that a bulk majority of pitches lose effectiveness as the pitch count increases. See Martinez, Pedro Game 7 ALCS 2003.

[Random]

There is no reason you'd pitch worse after already throwing 110 pitches? I don't agree, it probably varies from pitcher to pitcher, but many will tire.

But the point is that 100 or 110 is not a magic number. Remove your pitcher when either a) he loses his mechanics, or b) he is not pitching effectively. Don't remove him just because he reaches some arbitrary number.

Earlier in the thread I provided a link to an analysis that showed more pitches early in the season = better ERA later in the season.

Another way to look at it is the saying "The minimum you ask for is the maximum you will get." If you never let someone throw more than 100 pitches, they'll never be able to throw more than 100 pitches when you need them to.

[BronxBaumer]

Wang was caudled last year, and this year he led the team in innings...

[Taylor]

Conditioning is better now than it has ever been in the history of sports. Wright's numbers this year got increasingly worse as his pitch count increased (this has been discussed in another thread). If there is an easy solution that we (non experts) can figure out, I don't see why it wouldn't already be employed.

As far as throwing its' definetly not. Professional pitches today don't throw everyday like they used to, they don't throw as many innings, they don't have as long of careers.

Just because people in general are in better shape does not mean their rotator cuff muscles are, and the stamina of their arms. When I was in high school and college the coaches emphasized leg strength and running. Actual throwing and rotator cuff work was secondary

I obviously don't know the exact difference between arm injuries now compared to back in the day but they seem much more abundant NOW then back 50 and 70 years ago.

It doesn't matter how many exercises you do, how many laps you run, how many internal and external rotations you do....NOTHING SUBSTITUTES FOR THROWING A BASEBALL. That is how you build arm strength. You can build your legs into tree trunks but if you don't condition you arm by throwing and throwing and throwing your gonna have arm problems

[Taylor]

It's called Albert Belle Syndrome. The fact of the matter is, if I can protect my investment in a pitcher by allowing him to pitch 100 pitches instead of 120, then you better believe my sweet ass that I will. Not to mention the fact that a bulk majority of pitches lose effectiveness as the pitch count increases. See Martinez, Pedro Game 7 ALCS 2003.

As simple as I can say it, because I've already proved my point in more detail


pitch count has nothing to do with arm injuries. arm injuries either happen or they don't based on your work in the offseason and in between starts.

Lack of conditioning or overpitching yourself after your fatigued and lose your ability to control your mechanics result in injuries. A fixed number has nothing to do with that. Like I said someone on a certain day could pitch 80 pitches and fatigue while in the next start he could pitch 130 and still be as effective as ever

[BronxBaumer]

Tell that to anyone on a team managed by Dusty Baker

[Taylor]

Wright's numbers this year got increasingly worse as his pitch count increased (this has been discussed in another thread).

Your missing the point. Wright doesn't matter. Your going by a full seasons numbers when I'm referring to a single start or two. You don't have to think of Wright you can think of anybody.

Pitcher A can be effective after 120 pitches, while the next start he can be fatigued after 80 based on a variety of factors. Theres no magic number.

[Taylor]

Tell that to anyone on a team managed by Dusty Baker

I dont know what your referring to but Kerry Wood and Mark Prior were injury prone long before Dusty came to town and plus Prior is always on some ridiculous pitch count where he never gets out of the 5th inning on the rare occasion he actually does start

[Nettles]

Let's not forget. It was our team that started the present trend of the 6 inning starter. That's because we had Mo as our setup guy in 1996. Now every team does it.

If we can start a trend, we can end a trend. Don't you think?

[Spiker101]

You all are making something complex out of something very simple. The reason why managers can't wait to get the game deep enough to get into the bullpen is simple: It works. A competent manager with a decent bullpen can mix and match to set up advantageous one on one situations in which his team will come out ahead.
IF you would just take the time to examine team ERAs for startes and relievers, this would be obvious.
The Yanks starters' ERA, for example, is 4.54. Their relievers ERA is 4.18. And that's one of the less extreme cases.
How about Minnesota? With Santana, Lirano for most of the season and Radke performing above expectations until late, you'd think their starters ERA would be terrific. It's almost exactly the same as the Yank's 4.50. Their relievers' ERA is 2.91. Wow!
Detroit leads the majors in starters' ERA with 4.00. Their relievers are better: 3.51
Mets: 4.67/3.25
San Diego (second in starters' ERA) 4.10/3.42
Oakland 4.50/3.60
Texas 5.11/3.74

Even the White Sox which are held up in the article cited just above as a paradim of the benefits of pushing the starters deep into the game have a starters' ERA of 4.65, compared to a relievers' ERA 4.53.

I'm not sure that the way to go in the future isn't grooming a bunch of guys who can throw 125-150 innings and let the manager have some fun.

[chanman7483]

people need to ignore the 100 pitches and your done philosophy and alot of pitchers would be 7 or 8 inning pitchers

since there is alot more invested young guys don't throw 130+ pitches anymore

Unless your name is Kerry Wood or Mark Prior