Im with you guys, I am ripping my hair out already, its so frustrating..Originally Posted by TMS
i dont think we have to worry, there is no way its happening, cash and torre are not that stupid to give away a pitcher right now without getting a better one in return
The way I see it, the difference between Proctor and Smith/Beam/70%Dotel is nowhere nears the gaping chasm of difference between Miguel Cairo and Betemit.
We have an aging/hurt roster and a lot of ABs to spread around to give guys rest and fill in. Betemit is a solid bat/glove to do that. And because he's young and cheap he solidifies the bench for years to come if we choose to keep him, or gives us solid trade material to deal for pitching if we need that.
Proctor is a 3rd reliever at best. He is, for the most part, replaceable. And hopefully whomever does replace him won't be worked into the ground as Torre is doing to Proctor now. Because I know Joe is not going to stop doing that.
What's frustrating is that you think Proctor is good. HE wont keep this up and when he reverts back to form we will be stuck with the same bad pitcher he always has been instead of a young stud infielder. Remember Tanyon Sturtze, another mediocre pitcher who got hot for a few months, if you could go back in time I bet youd trade him for Betemit.
I could see if this trade was being done for a Cairo-level middle infielder. But we're talking a 26 year old with an .844 OPS over 200 AB's this season. We DON'T have anyone in our system like this. We do have people who can potentially throw between a 4.00 and 5.00 era in the bullpen.
My guess is that the deal was Proctor + for Betemit, otherwise it would have already been done and rightly so.
Just as a reminder. As recently as the beginning of THIS month, did anyone reasonably expect to get ANYTHING for Scott Proctor?
Exactly, a string of good innings shouldn't overshadow the entire body of his career when evaluating Proctor.
Alex Rodriguez
Career OPS: .965
Postseason OPS: .977
I wasn't mulling over any ideas to trade him to begin with when our pitching is so thin as it is. If Betemit could play the OF, I'd have much less of a problem with this trade. As it stands now, you're filling a hole that doesn't need to be filled (at least, won't need to be filled in another 2 weeks), & you're weakening yourself in an area where you can't afford to be weakened in. Get Flash Gordon in another trade & this trade makes a ton of sense.
Since Matt Smith, Jesus Colome & TJ Beam are so wonderful, I'm sure the Phillies would love to make a deal to get 3 solid middle relievers for an overpriced aging veteran, right guys? Get it done Cashman! It's a no brainer.
If Betemit is as good as billed we trade Proctor for him and worry about the rest later. We can simply insert Villone in Proctor's role and call up Matt Smith.
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Exactly, but I have a feeling the Braves wanted Proctor and a prospect because if they didnt the deal should be done right now.
Everything is relative. Do we potentially have a hole at 1B? Sure do. Are we a deep offensive team right now? Nope. Could our bullpen "survive" the loss of a pitcher who put up two consecutive 5.00 era months...THIS SEASON? I'm guessing yes. The whole you're saying doesn't need to be filled, absolutely does need to be filled. now and for the future. If a team like the Braves is foolish enough to buy into 2 successful months as a reliever, then you appreciate your good fortune and move forward. But then again, middle reliever for young hitter never turns out badly for the team acquiring the reliever right? (Bagwell, McGriff).I wasn't mulling over any ideas to trade him to begin with when our pitching is so thin as it is. If Betemit could play the OF, I'd have much less of a problem with this trade. As it stands now, you're filling a hole that doesn't need to be filled (at least, won't need to be filled in another 2 weeks), & you're weakening yourself in an area where you can't afford to be weakened in. Get Flash Gordon in another trade & this trade makes a ton of sense.
Since Matt Smith, Jesus Colome & TJ Beam are so wonderful, I'm sure the Phillies would love to make a deal to get 3 solid middle relievers for an overpriced aging veteran, right guys? Get it done Cashman! It's a no brainer.
BTW, the trade deadline is 4 days away and youre saying well worry about the rest later? What if you trade proctor and Villone or Smith are not effective at all in their NEW roles????? Bottom line is your F#$*ed. You got no more options, buts thank gd youll at least have a backup utility player who will keep the bench nice and warm for us - that seems to be the most important thing.
We let Flash walk because we didn't want to pay him for 3 years. Now we are going to trade 3 guys to the Phils to take on the exact same contract we didn't want to pay in the first place?I wasn't mulling over any ideas to trade him to begin with when our pitching is so thin as it is. If Betemit could play the OF, I'd have much less of a problem with this trade. As it stands now, you're filling a hole that doesn't need to be filled (at least, won't need to be filled in another 2 weeks), & you're weakening yourself in an area where you can't afford to be weakened in. Get Flash Gordon in another trade & this trade makes a ton of sense.
Since Matt Smith, Jesus Colome & TJ Beam are so wonderful, I'm sure the Phillies would love to make a deal to get 3 solid middle relievers for an overpriced aging veteran, right guys? Get it done Cashman! It's a no brainer.
And one of the articles said the Yanks thought they could try Betemit in the OF as well as 2B and 1B. If he's even semi-competent at 1B he is a huge offensive upgrade to Phillips. If he can swing the OF without embarrasing himself we never have to watch Bernie bat against righties again (in theory, although not likely with Joe filling out the lineup card). And as I mentioned he's agreat insurance policy for the rest of the IF as well, considering how badly we have had it with injuries this year.
I think he brings more value and makes us a better team then keeping Proctor, especially considering I expect Proctor to revert to form before year's end.
If we get Betemit to play 1B, we can then toy with the idea of sending Beam/Crosby/Phillips/Thompson/Myers or whoever for a reliever to fill Proctors role.
Let's face with. With Matsui, Damon, Cabrera, Crosby, Bernie, and Guiel, management doesn't seem impressed with Thompson. Betemit is better than Andy, Crosby is a joke, and Beam is a big ?.
I mention Myers because he's a waste of a roster spot. We need depth in the pen, having a LOOGY is ok if you have shut down pitchers you can rely on. Villone has been solid, Proctor is going to burn out, Farns is erratic, Chacon is the long man (yuck), Mo is still Mo.
I realize we can flip him for a quality arm, but I'd try to hang on to him while still getting that quality arm. Best of both worlds. We need to stop being the other teams bitch at the deadline. No more fleecings.
Or someone who could hit for Bernie, Phillips, Fasano late in games in August and September, play a little 1B maybe, learn the OF a little bit in spring training next year if necessary. But hey, going forward, I don't think we can use a 26 year old switch hitter with an .800 OPS who can play any infield position.
Flip side to that argument, what if Joe starts overusing Proctor again and predictably he puts up a 5.00 era the rest of the way. Think Atlanta will want to make this trade then? But luckily we still have Miguel Cairo and Andy if someone gets hurt down the stretch or Robbie's hamstring never recovers completely this season as hamstrings can sometimes do.
He would be an everyday player and replace Andy Phillip's god awful bat once Cano comes back. What happens WHEN(because it will happen) Scott Proctor returns to his career form? We are stuck with a mediocre reliever and thats it.
Betemit at 1B or a corner outfield spot seems a bit of a waste. He loses most of his defensive value and he becomes an average hitter. Better than Phillips, yes, but if you can get Betemit for Proctor, than you have to turn him around to someone who is looking for a SS or 3B and has a legit 1B/RF/LF to offer.
Even just using this season as an example, Cairo and Phillips are each around a VORP of -5.0. Betemit was at 11 or so. Proctor was at 14. Smith (in 12 innings) was at 8.0 A theoretical trade of Proctor and either Cairo or Phillips vs. Betemit and Smith would leave the Yankees at plus 10 just for this season, not to mention Smith and Betemit are the more valuable players going forward.
What does Betemit do for us once Cano returns off the DL? Play a game maybe once a week? Is that making full use of his value? If you want to trade for him so that you can flip him in another deal for pitching, fine. Otherwise, to give up a main part of the BP for a bench player is silliness.
I'm saying that if we don't find a replacement reliever, I am content with sliding Villone in Proctor's slot (no loss and even an improvement) and slide Smith into Villone's old slot. IF this season falls on our 3rd or 4th middle reliever, we are done now. Many veiw Betemit as a player equal to or even better than Cano and if that's the case, we don't suffer any loss at 2B this year and have Cano as a chip for the off season.
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Hed replace Phillips who is awful for the remainder of the season. Then you have quite a few options in the offseason and a valuable trade piece.
You play him at 1B. Sure you can trade him for a legit position player, but everyone knows the Yankees need. They'll start asking for Betemit and others in the deal. Not worth it IMO, especially if those other players were going to be used to aquire a pitcher.
Not to say for certain that he'll continue to improve, but Betemit's .840 OPS this season would put him at 7th in terms of AL first baseman and would be higher than say Mark Teixeira. You could make this trade and not flip him ANYWHERE and you'd help your team out a great deal, not to mention have a great contingency plan if something were to happen to A-Rod, Jeter, or Cano. Depth is very important, as we're finding out this season.
To be in the lead in the wild card, and 1 1/2 games out in the East with Matsui and Sheff out 90% of the season so far and Cano out the last month and with A-rod not hitting and Giambi in a slump (hopefully broke that last night), I would say were doing pretty fine. We're not playing with 9 all stars like we have had the last 5 yrs. but with guys like melky and cairo and aaron guiell of late filling the roles and coming through. With our hitters coming back soon i just dont see a need for another bat. Pitching right now is the most important thing, we have no 4th or 5th starter and our bullpen blew it last night
If this season depends on Scott Proctor, well we'll win it next year.
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Correct.
Either Lieber or play with the AAA guys currently in our system.
Depth in the BP is equally as important, as we saw last night. Look, you're not going to convince me that it's a smart deal to make w/o a suitable contingency plan, just as I'm not going to convince you that it's a deal we shouldn't make. It's all a question of what you value more. Personally, I value depth in the BP more than I do depth on the bench.
Yes, my point is, it's a waste for him to replace Phillips when he has substantially more value on the trade market to get a piece that the Yankees actually need, rather than filling him in at 1B where he loses almost all of his value (his defensive value at 3B and SS is gone and he is a below average hitter for the position).
Is he a better hitter than Phillips? Yes. However, a team that can actually play Betemit at SS or 3B does not lose his positional value and therefore makes a good trading partner for the Yankees. What can they get back? How about a 1B/LF/RF who is to that position what Betemit is to SS/3B? How about starting pitching?
In other words, for the sake of argument, if we call Betemit an average 3B right now, a 25 year old average 1B does more good for the Yankees than playing Betemit out of position.
Betemit wouldnt be on the bench if we dont slip him...Hed be playing first and some corner outfield once Cano got back. To be honest if the Phillys are asking for Lester for Lieber(yes that is not a mistake) then I think this might be the best deal we are going to get. Considering Proctor isnt good id do this trade easily.
Thats a good point, I was just going worst case scenario.
Fine - ignore the misguided faith comment.
Elementary level math shows he isn't going to have a low 3 ERA.
I only brought up Colome b/c someone asked how he was doing. He's got a 2.5ERA in the minors - expecting him to put up a 4.5 in the bigs isn't unreasonable.
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I don't see the Yankees trading Cano. This is how we keep ending up in holes. Trade a stud 24 year old 2B, one of the best in the AL, and for what? A pitcher that we hope wont flop? This is Stienbrennerish. Unless we get a Liriano in return, no thanks. The last thing I want to see is Cano traded for a pitcher who can't make it to the All Star break.
However, if Betemit is indeed as good if not better -- and can play 2B, that frees up Can for a trade.
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Or better yet, we can hang on to both of them, especially given the fact that we have a roster of aging stars. Count me among the people that wouldn't mind having Betemit as a utility infielder and melky cabrera as a 4th OF. There are AB's to be had at all of those places.
Unless of course you're blown away with an offer of a top notch SP and some high level prospects.
haha, its funny how were talking about what were gonna do with him in 2007 before we even got him - dont count on this trade happening
That's fine too, BTW, I never meant trade Cano automatically, just if a deal helps us.
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Obviously if we traded Cano it would be for a good SP, and while we just traded a 24 year old stud we would have a 25 year old one to take his place.
Especially since it likely won't happen. Although you can picture the conversation with Joe and Cashman about this one.
I agree, I would be shocked if Atlanta agreed to this 1-1.
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That's my point MT. Unless the deal is stellar, Cano stays put. Even if Betemit is better. Think of that infield. Betemit, Cano, Jeter, A-Rod.
I'll be shocked if Torre doesn't pull a gun on Cash for suggesting it.
Torre: "You traded Proctor? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
you mean -
Torre: "You traded Proctor? MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"
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If they throw in Joey Devine, I'd give them Proctor and Henn for Bet. and Devine
Lead the way, Mr. Girardi.
Theoretical question:
If Scott Proctor showed up today with a sore shoulder and ended up out for the season, would some here give up?
In a perverse way I feel like Proctor is Torre's 'crutch' and that the team would be better off, both this season and in the future, if Proctor were gone and Torre had to be a little more resourceful in his bullpen management.
Utilizing Betemit, however, would require another degree of resourcefulness that I fear Torre lacks as well.
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Betemit looks like he is better than Cano in many ways.
AB AVG HR RBI OBP SLG OPS SO BB
Betemit 197 .281 9 29 .341 .497 .838 56 17
Cano 271 .325 4 27 .353 .439 .792 28 11
He is about 1.5 years older than Cano but still, I wouldn't mind having them both together or using Betemit as our version of Chone Figgins.
Betemit, right now, is a legitimate starting infielder. In a couple years, like Cano, he will be top-tier. Both can hit. Both can field. I give the fielding edge to Betemit though. Betemit is also more patient at the plate. It'd be sweet to get him for Proctor.
But like I was saying, I don't understand how he is not considered by most people as better than Cano when he has the same amount of RBI's, double the HR's, a .50 higher OPS, and done it all with sporadic playing time and in 80 AB's less than Cano. All the while he has the versatility to play all over the infield and possibly the corner outfield too. I'm now all about getting this guy.
This is when the FO puts their foot down. It makes no sense for them to try and aquire these guys, only to have them sit on the bench because Torre plays favorites. I'd tell him, "Listen, we picked up these guys because we feel they can help the team, enough is enough Joe." I could only imagine if we got someone like Mench, that we'd still see Bernie and Crosby share time with him in RF.
Dynasty, yes it would be sweet. Hell I'd even throw in Thompson. This is why I'd hate to see us flip him if we ever got him. We risk loosing a sweet deal that would instantly help us. Especially if it's just Proctor for Betemit. We have to look for long term value here.
Can we get anyone better for Proctor, who are FA's that we're already targeting? If we trade him, will the player in return fit our plans for next year, or is he a crutch for us to make it through this year?
See, if the deal isn't something stellar we hang on to Cano and Betemit. Why? Well whats the point of trading good young talent for poop in return? If we're going poop for poop, trade some of our lesser valued guys and just hope for the best. That way if a player flops, we'll we still have the good talent. If Betemit flops, well all we lost was Proctor. It's worth the gamble. but as they say with gambling, quit while you're a head.
Cano's 2 years younger & has already made the Allstar team in his 2nd year in the majors, & yet you are now making the argument that Betemit's a better player than Cano is? I guess Cano for Betemit straight up would be a fair offer in your eyes? In that case, Proctor for Betemit's a no brainer since I'm sure FLA would have no problem trading Dontrelle Willis to us for Betemit during the offseason. *sarcasm*
Cano's been a regular player which Betemit hasn't, and that's a meaningful distinction. But it seems a little hard to deny that Betemit's been a more productive hitter when he's played than Cano has.
You think at any point if the trade offer was made Cano for Dontrelle straight up the Marlins would do it? Aside from the fact that Cano made the All-Star team at a position where the other all-star was the future HOF Mark Loretta I'm just not seeing anything that makes Cano stand out from Betemit. With that said, I'm all about holding on to both of them if we get Betemit, making him our first baseman, and let them both blossom into a sick fielding and even better hitting right side of the infield.
I love Cano but Betemit outhit him slightly last year and moreso this year. He also walks more and is more versatile defensively. And according to Baseball Reference his actual date of birth is November 2, 1981, making him just less than a year older than Cano.
I wouldn't say its clear case of Betemit being better, just that the argument can be made.
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