Yanks Looking At Wilson Betemit

[BJG]

Well will you feel that way in the future when Hughes, and Tabata are talk of trades (if and when) they make it to the big leagues safely? I see no reason why people complain about trading prospects then. If this is a talked about player amongst fans, a player coveted by the front office, a player who's been off limits in trades through the minors, then in the majors he gets a "Thanks for the ride, you've been traded."

If it made the team better short and long term, I'd trade anyone (yes, anyone). 'Untouchable' is a word that gets used to express value, but it doesn't actually mean 'untouchable'.

Anyway, the Hughes and Tabata analogy just doesn't fit here. I guess if the Yankees had Hughes, Bailey, Garza, Sanchez, etc. it would be a similar analogy, because then they would have the depth to move some of that. Besides, we aren't talking about dealing prospects here...we are talking about dealing an average middle reliever for a much better player, thus giving the team the depth necessary to make a second move that improves the team as a whole...no downgrade at 2B, but substantially better somewhere else all for the price of right handed relief pitching.

[bambam51]

Hello Yankee fans! Great thread all-around. I've been following it for awhile and finally became a member.

Looking at this potential Betemit deal has me really excited. I do feel that Proctor will be missed in the bullpen because he provides so many quality innings. I also worry about the health of Dotel and Farnsworth. So I undersand as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But the way I see things, losing Proctor won't ruin our playoff hopes because we have survived the losses of big impact players: Matsui, Sheffield and Cano. We really don't know when/if we'll get any of them back or how productive they'll be upon return. If it's broke, you have to fix it so we need offense right now. If we can add Betimit and get Matsui and Cano back, we can put some games out of reach so the bullpen receives more rest.

Also, as a poster mentioned earlier, Villone would take Proctor's spot.

Proctor ERA 4.08
Villone ERA 2.12

Proctor BAA .239
Villone BAA .210

Proctor WHIP 1.29
Villone WHIP 1.24

Proctor K/BB 2.61
Villone K/BB 1.61

Their stats are nearly identical. Although Proctor K's more hitters, he allows alot of hard hit balls thus increasing his ERA. I'm not sure about the HR/9 stats on them but I would bet Proctor has the higher rate. The veteran Villone, seems to know how to pitch around hitters and waste pitches at the right time. Although it's a gamble and he surrenders more walks, he usually wiggles out of a jam while Proctor doesn't.

Other posters have mentioned how Matt Smith would take Villone's spot in middle relief. I agree. It's not fair for to insinuate Smith would be thrust into Proctor's 7th and 8th inning situations. Smith won't see that kind of pressure with Villone in the same pen. Smith would see action in the 5th-7th. Like Villone, he surrenders BB's because he might throw a pitch out of the strike zone to get a hitter to chase, but he has been unscathed thus far. I also would bet Smith can post an ERA around 4.08 in Villone's role.

So essentially, we're looking at the difference between Smith and Villone in the middle innings. Not much of a downgrade considering Betemit represents a significant upgrade over Cairo and could be transitioned to 1b along the way so that when Cano take over 2nd, Betemit pushes Phillips to the bench which strengthens the bench and gives Joe another versatlie PH.

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason. Also, I think Cox could take Proctor's place next season.

[bambam51]

Hello Yankee fans! Great thread all-around. I've been following it for awhile and finally became a member.

Looking at this potential Betemit deal has me really excited. I do feel that Proctor will be missed in the bullpen because he provides so many quality innings. I also worry about the health of Dotel and Farnsworth. So I undersand as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But the way I see things, losing Proctor won't ruin our playoff hopes because we have survived the losses of big impact players: Matsui, Sheffield and Cano. We really don't know when/if we'll get any of them back or how productive they'll be upon return. If it's broke, you have to fix it so we need offense right now. If we can add Betimit and get Matsui and Cano back, we can put some games out of reach so the bullpen receives more rest.

Also, as a poster mentioned earlier, Villone would take Proctor's spot.

Proctor ERA 4.08
Villone ERA 2.12

Proctor BAA .239
Villone BAA .210

Proctor WHIP 1.29
Villone WHIP 1.24

Proctor K/BB 2.61
Villone K/BB 1.61

Their stats are nearly identical. Although Proctor K's more hitters, he allows alot of hard hit balls thus increasing his ERA. I'm not sure about the HR/9 stats on them but I would bet Proctor has the higher rate. The veteran Villone, seems to know how to pitch around hitters and waste pitches at the right time. Although it's a gamble and he surrenders more walks, he usually wiggles out of a jam while Proctor doesn't.

Other posters have mentioned how Matt Smith would take Villone's spot in middle relief. I agree. It's not fair for to insinuate Smith would be thrust into Proctor's 7th and 8th inning situations. Smith won't see that kind of pressure with Villone in the same pen. Smith would see action in the 5th-7th. Like Villone, he surrenders BB's because he might throw a pitch out of the strike zone to get a hitter to chase, but he has been unscathed thus far. I also would bet Smith can post an ERA around 4.08 in Villone's role.

So essentially, we're looking at the difference between Smith and Villone in the middle innings. Not much of a downgrade considering Betemit represents a significant upgrade over Cairo and could be transitioned to 1b along the way so that when Cano take over 2nd, Betemit pushes Phillips to the bench which strengthens the bench and gives Joe another versatlie PH.

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason. Also, I think Cox could take Proctor's place next season.

[SINCE77 2]

Hello Yankee fans! Great thread all-around. I've been following it for awhile and finally became a member.

Looking at this potential Betemit deal has me really excited. I do feel that Proctor will be missed in the bullpen because he provides so many quality innings. I also worry about the health of Dotel and Farnsworth. So I undersand as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But the way I see things, losing Proctor won't ruin our playoff hopes because we have survived the losses of big impact players: Matsui, Sheffield and Cano. We really don't know when/if we'll get any of them back or how productive they'll be upon return. If it's broke, you have to fix it so we need offense right now. If we can add Betimit and get Matsui and Cano back, we can put some games out of reach so the bullpen receives more rest.

Also, as a poster mentioned earlier, Villone would take Proctor's spot.

Proctor ERA 4.08
Villone ERA 2.12

Proctor BAA .239
Villone BAA .210

Proctor WHIP 1.29
Villone WHIP 1.24

Proctor K/BB 2.61
Villone K/BB 1.61

Their stats are nearly identical. Although Proctor K's more hitters, he allows alot of hard hit balls thus increasing his ERA. I'm not sure about the HR/9 stats on them but I would bet Proctor has the higher rate. The veteran Villone, seems to know how to pitch around hitters and waste pitches at the right time. Although it's a gamble and he surrenders more walks, he usually wiggles out of a jam while Proctor doesn't.

Other posters have mentioned how Matt Smith would take Villone's spot in middle relief. I agree. It's not fair for to insinuate Smith would be thrust into Proctor's 7th and 8th inning situations. Smith won't see that kind of pressure with Villone in the same pen. Smith would see action in the 5th-7th. Like Villone, he surrenders BB's because he might throw a pitch out of the strike zone to get a hitter to chase, but he has been unscathed thus far. I also would bet Smith can post an ERA around 4.08 in Villone's role.

So essentially, we're looking at the difference between Smith and Villone in the middle innings. Not much of a downgrade considering Betemit represents a significant upgrade over Cairo and could be transitioned to 1b along the way so that when Cano take over 2nd, Betemit pushes Phillips to the bench which strengthens the bench and gives Joe another versatlie PH.

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason. Also, I think Cox could take Proctor's place next season.

Welcome and nice post. I agree with you about the bullpen. I really have great confidence in Smith.

[TMS]

Which ex-Yankee farmhands are you pissed at seeing succeed in other places?

Soriano

[ppa79]

Well will you feel that way in the future when Hughes, and Tabata are talk of trades (if and when) they make it to the big leagues safely? I see no reason why people complain about trading prospects then. If this is a talked about player amongst fans, a player coveted by the front office, a player who's been off limits in trades through the minors, then in the majors he gets a "Thanks for the ride, you've been traded."

And people wonder why our farm system "sucks", we trade them all away because we're never satisfied. Sure some go on to other teams to have success. Then we try to bring them back for us at triple the cost of either money or prospects at the deadline. Soriano anyone?

It reminds me of Stienbrenners love for an All-Star at every position. We the deplete the future of the franchise to say "Hey look who we got!" Our core goes off to become another teams core. Then we get pissed when we see them succeed, and say "you know, we should hang on to a few of these guys." That is until the next best trade comes along. Rinse and repeat. Then the Yankees become the same destination team to cash in one more time before you retire. Not the team that finally says you know what, instead of winning 1 this year, lets win a bunch within the next 10.

This post is ridiculous. Do you even know what we are discussing anymore? Try to stay on topic next time. It really helps.

[Kulish29]

Hello Yankee fans! Great thread all-around. I've been following it for awhile and finally became a member.

Looking at this potential Betemit deal has me really excited. I do feel that Proctor will be missed in the bullpen because he provides so many quality innings. I also worry about the health of Dotel and Farnsworth. So I undersand as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But the way I see things, losing Proctor won't ruin our playoff hopes because we have survived the losses of big impact players: Matsui, Sheffield and Cano. We really don't know when/if we'll get any of them back or how productive they'll be upon return. If it's broke, you have to fix it so we need offense right now. If we can add Betimit and get Matsui and Cano back, we can put some games out of reach so the bullpen receives more rest.

Also, as a poster mentioned earlier, Villone would take Proctor's spot.

Proctor ERA 4.08
Villone ERA 2.12

Proctor BAA .239
Villone BAA .210

Proctor WHIP 1.29
Villone WHIP 1.24

Proctor K/BB 2.61
Villone K/BB 1.61

Their stats are nearly identical. Although Proctor K's more hitters, he allows alot of hard hit balls thus increasing his ERA. I'm not sure about the HR/9 stats on them but I would bet Proctor has the higher rate. The veteran Villone, seems to know how to pitch around hitters and waste pitches at the right time. Although it's a gamble and he surrenders more walks, he usually wiggles out of a jam while Proctor doesn't.

Other posters have mentioned how Matt Smith would take Villone's spot in middle relief. I agree. It's not fair for to insinuate Smith would be thrust into Proctor's 7th and 8th inning situations. Smith won't see that kind of pressure with Villone in the same pen. Smith would see action in the 5th-7th. Like Villone, he surrenders BB's because he might throw a pitch out of the strike zone to get a hitter to chase, but he has been unscathed thus far. I also would bet Smith can post an ERA around 4.08 in Villone's role.

So essentially, we're looking at the difference between Smith and Villone in the middle innings. Not much of a downgrade considering Betemit represents a significant upgrade over Cairo and could be transitioned to 1b along the way so that when Cano take over 2nd, Betemit pushes Phillips to the bench which strengthens the bench and gives Joe another versatlie PH.

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason. Also, I think Cox could take Proctor's place next season.

You friggin rock. Welcome.

[RIYankeeFan]

Yeah I know it could help the team. Proctor for Betemit, yeah I'd do it. But it just seems silly that we'd keep trading away our prospects for what's behind door number 2. Then we follow the next crop of young talent, only to go down the same road. What happened if we traded Jeter, Mariano, Bernie, Pettitte, and Posada for "someone" better. Who the hell would be the face of our franchise? I just think there comes a point when you say "You know what, as good as the other guy is, we're going to stick with our guy. We like what see, and he's a perfect example who we want in the long run."

[IrishYankee]

I like it.

[ppa79]

Yeah I know it could help the team. Proctor for Betemit, yeah I'd do it. But it just seems silly that we'd keep trading away our prospects for what's behind door number 2. Then we follow the next crop of young talent, only to go down the same road. What happened if we traded Jeter, Mariano, Bernie, Pettitte, and Posada for "someone" better. Who the hell would be the face of our franchise? I just think there comes a point when you say "You know what, as good as the other guy is, we're going to stick with our guy. We like what see, and he's a perfect example who we want in the long run."

Who was better than Jeter, Bernie, Mariano, Pettitte, and Posada back then and at the same age? Do you even know what everyone here is discussing?

[BJG]

Yeah I know it could help the team. Proctor for Betemit, yeah I'd do it. But it just seems silly that we'd keep trading away our prospects for what's behind door number 2. Then we follow the next crop of young talent, only to go down the same road. What happened if we traded Jeter, Mariano, Bernie, Pettitte, and Posada for "someone" better. Who the hell would be the face of our franchise? I just think there comes a point when you say "You know what, as good as the other guy is, we're going to stick with our guy. We like what see, and he's a perfect example who we want in the long run."

If the Yankees had 2 derek Jeters in the system in 1995 and were locked up at 2nd base and CF, I would have had no problem trading one of them. That's what we are talking about here...two guys of comparable age and skill with one position at which they both fit as the roster is currently constructed. When you have depth, you turn it into a piece that better fits...like trading the homegrown Roberto Kelly (arguably the best player on the team) for Paul O'Neill because they also had Bernie Williams.

[yanksphan]

Well thought out post bambam51.

Welcome to the forum.

[BJG]

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason.

Nomar moved to first due to an inability to effectively play at ss anymore. Betemit's value is tied up in the positions he can play. He doesn't hit enough to be a first baseman, and the defensive value he does have is almost entirely lost there. This is why, if the Yankees were to get Betemit, long term either he or Cano would likely have to be moved for a better fitting piece.

[ppa79]

Nomar moved to first due to an inability to effectively play at ss anymore. Betemit's value is tied up in the positions he can play. He doesn't hit enough to be a first baseman, and the defensive value he does have is almost entirely lost there. This is why, if the Yankees were to get Betemit, long term either he or Cano would likely have to be moved for a better fitting piece.

Exactly. I consider Betemit and Cano pretty much interchangable.

Package one of them up for a player that can really help this team.

[RIYankeeFan]

Who was better than Jeter, Bernie, Mariano, Pettitte, and Posada back then and at the same age? Do you even know what everyone here is discussing?

Yes I know what you're talking about. This was in regards to the whole Cano thing. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to stand pat once in a while, like other teams. Rather than chase that 1 missing puzzle piece every year.

[MassNYYfan]

You friggin rock. Welcome.

I hope he emailed that post to Cashman.

[justin32099]

Yeah I know it could help the team. Proctor for Betemit, yeah I'd do it. But it just seems silly that we'd keep trading away our prospects for what's behind door number 2. Then we follow the next crop of young talent, only to go down the same road. What happened if we traded Jeter, Mariano, Bernie, Pettitte, and Posada for "someone" better. Who the hell would be the face of our franchise? I just think there comes a point when you say "You know what, as good as the other guy is, we're going to stick with our guy. We like what see, and he's a perfect example who we want in the long run."

I disagree with you in general, but not because I think Jeter, Mariano, Bernie etc should have been traded or that Hughes, Tabata, etc should be traded now. In the end, the most important thing is that the best team possible is put on the field. Say for example that we were offered Chase Utley for Cano (obviously, this would never happen). Would you want Cashman to say "we're going to stick with our guy, we like him"? Of course not! Being loyal to "your guys" past their time of usefulness is sacrificing wins and championships.

Of course, when your franchise's guys are also great players (such as we were lucky enough to have happen with Jeter, Posada, Bernie, Mariano), you get the best of both worlds. But we can't expect Cano, Melky, Hughes, Tabata to all succeed like those guys have and if we can improve the team by trading them away, we have to do it and not worry about "who's going to be the face of the franchise?" The face of the franchise isn't really worth having if the team's winning 85 games a year.

[ppa79]

Yes I know what you're talking about. This was in regards to the whole Cano thing. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to stand pat once in a while, like other teams. Rather than chase that 1 missing puzzle piece every year.

Betemit and Cano are pretty much the same player. Both are young, cheap, and have similar offensive abilities. Having both enables you to trade of one of them for a significant player that can help the Yanks for many years. At the end of the day, you still don't lose anything at 2nd and you pick up a very good player.

[In Mo I Trust]

Great post BamBam.

[27IsNext]

Hello Yankee fans! Great thread all-around. I've been following it for awhile and finally became a member.

Looking at this potential Betemit deal has me really excited. I do feel that Proctor will be missed in the bullpen because he provides so many quality innings. I also worry about the health of Dotel and Farnsworth. So I undersand as the saying goes, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

But the way I see things, losing Proctor won't ruin our playoff hopes because we have survived the losses of big impact players: Matsui, Sheffield and Cano. We really don't know when/if we'll get any of them back or how productive they'll be upon return. If it's broke, you have to fix it so we need offense right now. If we can add Betimit and get Matsui and Cano back, we can put some games out of reach so the bullpen receives more rest.

Also, as a poster mentioned earlier, Villone would take Proctor's spot.

Proctor ERA 4.08
Villone ERA 2.12

Proctor BAA .239
Villone BAA .210

Proctor WHIP 1.29
Villone WHIP 1.24

Proctor K/BB 2.61
Villone K/BB 1.61

Their stats are nearly identical. Although Proctor K's more hitters, he allows alot of hard hit balls thus increasing his ERA. I'm not sure about the HR/9 stats on them but I would bet Proctor has the higher rate. The veteran Villone, seems to know how to pitch around hitters and waste pitches at the right time. Although it's a gamble and he surrenders more walks, he usually wiggles out of a jam while Proctor doesn't.

Other posters have mentioned how Matt Smith would take Villone's spot in middle relief. I agree. It's not fair for to insinuate Smith would be thrust into Proctor's 7th and 8th inning situations. Smith won't see that kind of pressure with Villone in the same pen. Smith would see action in the 5th-7th. Like Villone, he surrenders BB's because he might throw a pitch out of the strike zone to get a hitter to chase, but he has been unscathed thus far. I also would bet Smith can post an ERA around 4.08 in Villone's role.

So essentially, we're looking at the difference between Smith and Villone in the middle innings. Not much of a downgrade considering Betemit represents a significant upgrade over Cairo and could be transitioned to 1b along the way so that when Cano take over 2nd, Betemit pushes Phillips to the bench which strengthens the bench and gives Joe another versatlie PH.

Betemit can be converted into a 1bman in the offseason ala Nomar. If Cashman can do that, he frees up even more money for pitching in the offseason. Also, I think Cox could take Proctor's place next season.

Welcome, and thanks for gracing us with a great post. I agree completely.

Although Betemit's value is diminished at first, it gives us the option of trading him or Cano in the offseason while sticking him there temporarily.

[boo_427]

Word on the streets, doesn't look good for this deal.

Could the Braves be asking for more than just Proctor? Or is it the Yankees saying Proctor isn't going to be moved?

Betemit for Linebrink

Scott Proctor: The Yankees have said he isn’t going to moved. So be it.

And all this time I figured the Braves probably wanted another player.

[ppa79]

Word on the streets, doesn't look good for this deal.

Could the Braves be asking for more than just Proctor? Or is it the Yankees saying Proctor isn't going to be moved?

Betemit for Linebrink



And all this time I figured the Braves probably wanted another player.

I wonder who the other player was. I can't see Cashman turning down a Betemit for Proctor straight up. He is too smart of a guy to reject that.

[boo_427]

I wonder who the other player was. I can't see Cashman turning down a Betemit for Proctor straight up. He is too smart of a guy to reject that.

No telling, the Braves really aren't much for trading for prospects. Historically, they go after veterans to fill spots and give leadership.

What really sticks out to me, according to the writer Dave O'Brien (AJC Braves beat writer) he spoke with Schuerholz yesterday (which means nothing), is that the Yankees seem adamant about not trading Proctor.

IMO, getting Betemit is the prize. Apparently, San Diego is hot after Betemit. Removing the Yanks as the middleman which was previously mentioned in this thread seems ideal for the Braves/Padres.

[TMS]

I wonder who the other player was. I can't see Cashman turning down a Betemit for Proctor straight up. He is too smart of a guy to reject that.

& if he rejected would he be dumb in your eyes because he doesn't share the same view as you? Maybe the Yankees don't value Betemit as much as you do?

[Snatch Catch]

Word on the streets, doesn't look good for this deal.

Could the Braves be asking for more than just Proctor?

I've been saying this from the beginning.

[ppa79]

& if he rejected it he'd be a moron in your eyes because he doesn't share the same view as you?

Cashman is a smart GM and smart GMs don't reject deals like this.

[RIYankee23]

Word on the streets, doesn't look good for this deal.

Could the Braves be asking for more than just Proctor? Or is it the Yankees saying Proctor isn't going to be moved?

Betemit for Linebrink



And all this time I figured the Braves probably wanted another player.

Good. I said it before and I'll say it again: we can't afford to start trading away any pieces of our bullpen if we expect to win this year!

[BJG]

Good. I said it before and I'll say it again: we can't afford to start trading away any pieces of our bullpen if we expect to win this year!

Nor, and more importantly, can Migeul Cairo, Bubba Crosby, Bernie Williams, Andy Phillips, and Aaron Guiel be regular players. Nor can the Yankees give away every 5th game by starting Ponson, etc. Trading middle relief to shore up positions of greater impact is a net positive in terms of helping the team win this year and, given what you could likely get back for Cano or Betemit, beyond. Every day players and starting pitchers simply have more of an effect on the game then a guy who pitches in the 7th inning 3 times a week.

[TMS]

Every day players and starting pitchers simply have more of an effect on the game then a guy who pitches in the 7th inning 3 times a week.

I don't think that's necessarily true. First of all, Betemit would not be an everyday player on this team once Cano comes back off the DL. Second, I don't think you could tell me that the Yankees would have won the WS in '96 without Mariano pitching the 7th & 8th. I also don't think the Red Sox wouldn't have made it to the WS in '04 without Timlin pitching the 7th & 8th either. Good, reliable setup men are a very underrated commodity to have imho.

[RIYankee23]

Nor, and more importantly, can Migeul Cairo, Bubba Crosby, Bernie Williams, Andy Phillips, and Aaron Guiel be regular players. Nor can the Yankees give away every 5th game by starting Ponson, etc. Trading middle relief to shore up positions of greater impact is a net positive in terms of helping the team win this year and, given what you could likely get back for Cano or Betemit, beyond. Every day players and starting pitchers simply have more of an effect on the game then a guy who pitches in the 7th inning 3 times a week.

Wrong. Pitching > Offense. It really is a simple concept. You underestimating to importance of relielf pitching. It's often the weakest and most overlooked area on many teams, while the teams that actually have good bullpens are the ones that win. See the Yankees from 96-01 or the 02 Angels, 04 Red sox, or 05 Chisox. Like Tino Martinez just said on Baseball Tonight, he likes the Yankees to make the playoffs especially if they can get one more reliever to help get the ball to Mo. How can we afford to start giving arms away when we actually need more?

Actually, this team has been winning over an extented period with the backups. However, I believe Cano will be back and effective in a few weeks. There's also a pretty good chance that we see Matsui by the end of August so that may prevent us from trading for a corner OF. That makes an OF of Melky in RF, Damon in CF, Matsui in LF.

Finally what do you mean "given what we could get back for Cano or Betemit?"

You mean you'd actually consider trading a young kid as talented as Cano? A kid who may win batting titles for years to come, plays a solid 2B, will be an All Star for many years to come, and has alredy drawn comparision to Rod Carew?

[TMS]

Don't forget RIYankee, Wilson Betemit's better.

[BJG]

I don't think that's necessarily true. First of all, Betemit would not be an everyday player on this team once Cano comes back off the DL.

That's why everyone who is in favor of trading Proctor for Betemit wants to then trade Betemit or Cano to fill one of the Yankees many holes at 1B, LF, RF, or in the starting rotation. Betemit is a much greater commodity than Proctor, and if the Yankees can get the greater commodity simply because the Braves bullpen is in shambles, good for them for taking advantage of the situation.

Second, I don't think you could tell me that the Yankees would have won the WS in '96 without Mariano pitching the 7th & 8th. I also don't think the Red Sox wouldn't have made it to the WS in '04 without Timlin pitching the 7th & 8th either. Good, reliable setup men are a very underrated commodity to have imho.

I didn't say they had no value, I said they had less value. The sheer number of opportunities that everyday position players and starting pitchers get has a greater impact on the game. Maybe it doesn't seem as glaring because the relief pitcher's appearances are so few versus all of the plate appearences and chances in the field and batters faced that those other guys get that what the reliever does seem magnified.

Besides, Scott Proctor is not Mariano Rivera circa 1996. Nor, for that matter, is he Mike Timlin, who was Foulke's primary setup guy. The 7th inning for Boston was reserved for the likes of Scott Williamson, who wasn't acquired until the trade deadline, and before that a revolving door.

[RIYankee23]

That's why everyone who is in favor of trading Proctor for Betemit wants to then trade Betemit or Cano to fill one of the Yankees many holes at 1B, LF, RF, or in the starting rotation. Betemit is a much greater commodity than Proctor, and if the Yankees can get the greater commodity simply because the Braves bullpen is in shambles, good for them for taking advantage of the situation.



I didn't say they had no value, I said they had less value. The sheer number of opportunities that everyday position players and starting pitchers get has a greater impact on the game. Maybe it doesn't seem as glaring because the relief pitcher's appearances are so few versus all of the plate appearences and chances in the field and batters faced that those other guys get that what the reliever does seem magnified.

Besides, Scott Proctor is not Mariano Rivera circa 1996. Nor, for that matter, is he Mike Timlin, who was Foulke's primary setup guy. The 7th inning for Boston was reserved for the likes of Scott Williamson, who wasn't acquired until the trade deadline, and before that a revolving door.

Sorry but I don't see Betemit helping this team more than Proctor who's been doing a a very good job as the 7th inning setup man.

[BJG]

Wrong. Pitching > Offense. It really is a simple concept. You underestimating to importance of relielf pitching. It's often the weakest and most overlooked area on many teams, while the teams that actually have good bullpens are the ones that win. See the Yankees from 96-01 or the 02 Angels, 04 Red sox, or 05 Chisox. Like Tino Martinez just said on Baseball Tonight, he likes the Yankees to make the playoffs especially if they can get one more reliever to help get the ball to Mo. How can we afford to start giving arms away when we actually need more?

Pitching is not now, nor has it ever been > offense. The goal is to score more runs than the opponent. How it happens doesn't matter. The White Sox last year did it with STARTING pitching (not their bullpen) and by outslugging their opponents in the playoffs. Etc. Besides, we are talking about Scott Proctor here, not Francisco Rodriguez or Mariano Rivera 1996. He's a middle of the road RH reliever, and you can get something close to his production from a lot of places.

Actually, this team has been winning over an extented period with the backups. However, I believe Cano will be back and effective in a few weeks. There's also a pretty good chance that we see Matsui by the end of August so that may prevent us from trading for a corner OF. That makes an OF of Melky in RF, Damon in CF, Matsui in LF.

Yet the threshold set for keeping Proctor is 'winning it all this year. That is not going to happen with below average production out of 1B, RF (and Melky is, at this moment, still below average) a significant health ? in Matsui. 1 hole in the lineup maybe you can carry.

Nor can the Yankees win it all this year getting 90 pitches out of Jaret Wright and ? in the 5th spot. If you want to focus on pitching, then focuse on starting pitching.

Finally what do you mean "given what we could get back for Cano or Betemit?"

You mean you'd actually consider trading a young kid as talented as Cano? A kid who may win batting titles for years to come, plays a solid 2B, will be an All Star for many years to come, and has alredy drawn comparision to Rod Carew?

Yes, I would rather have Betemit and the kind of young starting pitcher that teams have been willing to give up for Cano than Cano and Proctor. Or, if I could make a better deal by keeping Cano and trading Betemit, who might have more value because he can play SS and Cano can't, I'd do that. I'd trade either one if I had both of them to fill a real need for this team. Dealing from depth is good.

BTW, the Rod Carew comparison was one made to describe the way Cano's swing looks, not his potential. If you want to play the comp game, though, there have been some great ones for Betemit over the years. Anyway, the end result is that Betemit has a .275 EQA this year, Cano a .274. Their career numbers are also eerily similar and, once you get Betemit's actual birthday, Cano is just 1 year and 10 days younger.

[TMS]

That's why everyone who is in favor of trading Proctor for Betemit wants to then trade Betemit or Cano to fill one of the Yankees many holes at 1B, LF, RF, or in the starting rotation. Betemit is a much greater commodity than Proctor, and if the Yankees can get the greater commodity simply because the Braves bullpen is in shambles, good for them for taking advantage of the situation.

You don't fill a hole at a backup position & create 1 in the BP of all places. The only real hole this team has right now is in the starting rotation & in RF. Betemit fills neither. I don't dispute the fact that Betemit is probably a more valuable trade chip to have, but our focus needs to be on winning a championship this year, not on accumulating trade chips for future trades, not with all the money George has invested in this team. I don't see this trade helping us win a title this year. If we were talking about this during the offseason, then I would probably have no qualms whatsoever in making the deal because you still have time to find a replacement for Proctor.

[RIYankee23]

Pitching is not now, nor has it ever been > offense. The goal is to score more runs than the opponent. How it happens doesn't matter. The White Sox last year did it with STARTING pitching (not their bullpen) and by outslugging their opponents in the playoffs. Etc. Besides, we are talking about Scott Proctor here, not Francisco Rodriguez or Mariano Rivera 1996. He's a middle of the road RH reliever, and you can get something close to his production from a lot of places.



Yet the threshold set for keeping Proctor is 'winning it all this year. That is not going to happen with below average production out of 1B, RF (and Melky is, at this moment, still below average) a significant health ? in Matsui. 1 hole in the lineup maybe you can carry.

Nor can the Yankees win it all this year getting 90 pitches out of Jaret Wright and ? in the 5th spot. If you want to focus on pitching, then focuse on starting pitching.



Yes, I would rather have Betemit and the kind of young starting pitcher that teams have been willing to give up for Cano than Cano and Proctor. Or, if I could make a better deal by keeping Cano and trading Betemit, who might have more value because he can play SS and Cano can't, I'd do that. BTW, the Rod Carew comparison was one made to describe the way Cano's swing looks, not his potential. If you want to play the comp game, though, there have been some great ones for Betemit over the years. Anyway, the end result is that Betemit has a .275 EQA this year, Cano a .274. Their career numbers are also eerily similar and, once you get Betemit's actual birthday, Cano is just 1 year and 10 days younger.

Pitching wins championships. Pitching > offense. Always has been and always will be. You win be shutting the other team down. In case you never noticed there are alot better pitchers in the playoffs where you simply can't rely on outslugging the other team to win. The only way to win is by having great pitching yourself.

[RIYankee23]

You don't fill a hole at a backup position & create 1 in the BP of all places. The only real hole this team has right now is in the starting rotation & in RF. Betemit fills neither. I don't dispute the fact that Betemit is probably a more valuable trade chip to have, but our focus needs to be on winning a championship this year, not on accumulating trade chips for future trades, not with all the money George has invested in this team. I don't see this trade helping us win a title this year. If we were talking about this during the offseason, then I would probably have no qualms whatsoever in making the deal because you still have time to find a replacement for Proctor.

Excellent post.

People forget that we won 4 WS playing the likes of Curtis, Spencer, and Ledee in LF. The reason we won was b/c of pitching; a great rotation and pen. Melky is more than adequate in the OF now, especially with Matsui supposed to return.

[wileedog]

Soriano

Uh, we got A-Rod for Soriano.

Yes I will happily trade farmhands for the best player in the game.

[TMS]

Pitching wins championships.

What? Are you sure about that? I know Joe Torre's always maintained that pitching wins championships, but what does he know? Since when does 4 rings make anyone an expert?

[TMS]

Uh, we got A-Rod for Soriano.

Yes I will happily trade farmhands for the best player in the game.

No kidding, so would I. I never had a problem with that trade. I was just answering your question.

[bambam51]

You don't fill a hole at a backup position & create 1 in the BP of all places. The only real hole this team has right now is in the starting rotation & in RF. Betemit fills neither. I don't dispute the fact that Betemit is probably a more valuable trade chip to have, but our focus needs to be on winning a championship this year, not on accumulating trade chips for future trades, not with all the money George has invested in this team. I don't see this trade helping us win a title this year. If we were talking about this during the offseason, then I would probably have no qualms whatsoever in making the deal because you still have time to find a replacement for Proctor.

Andy Phillips sports a .270 OBP. He's making more outs than any other Yankee in the lineup. I'd say that's a hole at 1b, the size of the Grand Canyon. Even when Matsui and Cano return, the hole remains at 1b.

[TMS]

Andy Phillips sports a .270 OBP. He's making more outs than any other Yankee in the lineup. I'd say that's a hole at 1b, the size of the Grand Canyon. Even when Matsui and Cano return, the hole remains at 1b.

Since when is Betemit a 1st baseman?

[RIYankee23]

Andy Phillips sports a .270 OBP. He's making more outs than any other Yankee in the lineup. I'd say that's a hole at 1b, the size of the Grand Canyon. Even when Matsui and Cano return, the hole remains at 1b.

Still not as major as losing your 7th inning guy and depth in the BP. Especially when you have both Cano and Matsui coming back to shore up the lineup. Hell, the team has gotten enough offense as it is now, it'll be more than enough once the reinforcements come back. BP is still more of a concern than worrying about Phillips getting AB's.

[matt27]

Even if such a sweet deal were possible, Torre would probably veto it. Didn't he have a hand in nixxing a deal for Edmonds long ago because Mendoza was in it? Same idea, bleh...

[In Mo I Trust]

Uh, we got A-Rod for Soriano.

Yes I will happily trade farmhands for the best player in the game.

Yup, it isn't like the Yankees have been trading farmhands left and right who have developed into studs for other teams.

[wileedog]

Yup, it isn't like the Yankees have been trading farmhands left and right who have developed into studs for other teams.

I wouldn't mind having Nick Johnson back, truth be told.

[wileedog]

Since when does 4 rings make anyone an expert?

Apparently since Torre won 4 rings...

[BJG]

Pitching wins championships. Pitching > offense. Always has been and always will be. You win be shutting the other team down. In case you never noticed there are alot better pitchers in the playoffs where you simply can't rely on outslugging the other team to win. The only way to win is by having great pitching yourself.

You keep saying it like it's true, so prove it. Take ever World Series winner. Give me the ranks in their respective leagues in runs allowed and runs scored. Over the same time frame, take the best pitching clubs from each league and the best hitting clubs from each league and tell me where they finished in the standings. If pitching really does trump offense, I'm sure we'll see it in the results. My guess (and maybe it isn't really a guess), is that teams that offered the best overall combinaton of scoring and preventing runs are the ones who did well.

[BJG]

btw, as I've already said numerous times, if you want pitching, I would swap Cano or Betemit for a comparable starting pitcher in a second.

Cano/Betemit and a young, solid starting pitcher I'll take any day over

Cano and Proctor

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

You keep saying it like it's true, so prove it.

How many times does it need to be said before it's simply accepted as truth. Sheesh, you with your "evidence" and "proof".