Yankee fans: are you rooting for the Mets or Red Sawx this series?

[blueguitar322]

They have arguably the best closer in baseball, arguably the best set up man in the baseball in Mike Timlin and they can get quality innings from a combination of MDC, Rudy Seanez, Julian Tavarez and even Craig Hansen, though each of them has the potential to melt down as well... but name more than a couple of bullpens in all of baseball that don't have the same problem with their middle relievers.

I don't see any reason to say the Sox' bullpen isn't capable of getting this team through a championship.

As much as I wish it were the case, Tavarez and Seanez are the types you only use in extra extra inning playoff games. Hansen and MDC will make a lot of mistakes over the season but they'll mature as well.

I think our best bet at having a pen that's better than the Gordon-Rivera-Nobodyelse bullpens that Yankees had the last few years is for Foulke to come back healthy and pitch like 2004 - and like he did in his bright flashes earlier this year.

BP is not a strength, but it's not particularly a weakness either. If we can get one or two more guys to step up, it has potential to be upgraded to "championship-caliber" but until then, not in my book.

[cmaff05]

They have arguably the best closer in baseball, arguably the best set up man in the baseball in Mike Timlin and they can get quality innings from a combination of MDC, Rudy Seanez, Julian Tavarez and even Craig Hansen, though each of them has the potential to melt down as well... but name more than a couple of bullpens in all of baseball that don't have the same problem with their middle relievers.

I don't see any reason to say the Sox' bullpen isn't capable of getting this team through a championship.

Yeah.. the best closer in baseball.. that's Papelbon. If you want to talk about over the first few months, I think that award goes to B.J. Ryan. Come on, you can't think Papelbon will seriously keep up this pace. Papelbon is having an incredible hot streak, probably the best he'll have of his career. I think he'll revert into a 2 or high 1 ERA pitcher.. you can quote me on that too. Don't get me wrong, that's incredible for a rookie. And Mariano Rivera hasn't retired yet, so I don't see how Papelbon is the best closer in baseball. Timlin is a great setup man, I'll give you that. I just don't think he'll keep up his high 1 ERA this year. In any case, he'll be better than Farnsworth this year and maybe Octavio Dotel. And, are you talking about the Rudy Seanez of the 5 ERA variety?

The Red Sox have a better setup man, but the Yankees have arguably better middle relief, and the better closer in the long run.

[Lucen]

As much as I wish it were the case, Tavarez and Seanez are the types you only use in extra extra inning playoff games. Hansen and MDC will make a lot of mistakes over the season but they'll mature as well.

I think our best bet at having a pen that's better than the Gordon-Rivera-Nobodyelse bullpens that Yankees had the last few years is for Foulke to come back healthy and pitch like 2004 - and like he did in his bright flashes earlier this year.

BP is not a strength, but it's not particularly a weakness either. If we can get one or two more guys to step up, it has potential to be upgraded to "championship-caliber" but until then, not in my book.

My point is that Papelbon and Timlin make it a championship caliber bullpen. Seriously, how many bullpens in baseball go deeper than their closer and set up man being automatic? After that, most bullpens (and I mean nearly all bullpens) have question marks. Otherwise, these guys wouldn't be middle relief. They'd be setting up or closing.

Rudy Seanez and Julian Tavarez are certainly questions, but you will still get quality innings out of them, especially if they're used properly. No bullpen in baseball is immune to giving up runs. But few can have the confidence in their set up man and closer that the Sox do.

[cmaff05]

And I'm going to be more specific here..

Lineups: The Red Sox have a great lineup, but the Yankees have the overall better lineup...no question.
Starting Pitching: both teams have better starting pitching than they did last year. Moose and Schilling are having incredible years, Wang and Wakefield are having great years, and Johnson and Beckett are inconsistent. The rest is up in the air.
Bullpen: Nobody has the clear advantage here. The Yankees have the better middle relief and obviously the best closer, but the Red Sox have the better bridge to their closer in Mike Timlin. The Red Sox middle relief isn't too shabby either, and it's close to a draw, but I think the Yankees have the slight advantage here.

[knickfan23]

Yeah.. the best closer in baseball.. that's Papelbon. If you want to talk about over the first few months, I think that award goes to B.J. Ryan. Come on, you can't think Papelbon will seriously keep up this pace. Papelbon is having an incredible hot streak, probably the best he'll have of his career. I think he'll revert into a 2 or high 1 ERA pitcher.. you can quote me on that too. Don't get me wrong, that's incredible for a rookie. And Mariano Rivera hasn't retired yet, so I don't see how Papelbon is the best closer in baseball. Timlin is a great setup man, I'll give you that. I just don't think he'll keep up his high 1 ERA this year. In any case, he'll be better than Farnsworth this year and maybe Octavio Dotel. And, are you talking about the Rudy Seanez of the 5 ERA variety?

The Red Sox have a better setup man, but the Yankees have arguably better middle relief, and the better closer in the long run.

However, as of this moment. Through the first 3 months of the season. Papelbon has been better than Rivera. There no shame in saying that. Mo has an ERA of 1.9 something. But Papelbon has one of 0.40. How can you say Pap hasnt been better than Mo this season.

[Lucen]

Yeah.. the best closer in baseball.. that's Papelbon. If you want to talk about over the first few months, I think that award goes to B.J. Ryan. Come on, you can't think Papelbon will seriously keep up this pace. Papelbon is having an incredible hot streak, probably the best he'll have of his career. I think he'll revert into a 2 or high 1 ERA pitcher.. you can quote me on that too. Don't get me wrong, that's incredible for a rookie. And Mariano Rivera hasn't retired yet, so I don't see how Papelbon is the best closer in baseball. Timlin is a great setup man, I'll give you that. I just don't think he'll keep up his high 1 ERA this year. In any case, he'll be better than Farnsworth this year and maybe Octavio Dotel. And, are you talking about the Rudy Seanez of the 5 ERA variety?

The Red Sox have a better setup man, but the Yankees have arguably better middle relief, and the better closer in the long run.

I said he was "arguably" the best closer in baseball because, yes, Ryan has been lights out too. But there is no justification for declaring BJ as the superior closer at this point, especially since Papelbon is right there or slightly ahead of him in every statistic.

As for Rivera... this season, right now, at the present time, Papelbon is a superior closer. No one is talking about over the course of the last 10 years, no one is talking about career performances. We're talking about 2006, from April until July. Papelbon has been quite a bit better than Mo in that span, so yes, he can be the best before Mo retires. That's not a knock on Mo, but Papelbon has been remarkable.

So yes, Papelbon isn't likely to finish the year as a .45 ERA closer, but you can't honestly think it's likely Ryan will either. So your inference that Ryan is clearly above Papelbon just isn't accurate.

As for Seanez, yes, he's a question mark. But again, show me a bullpen in baseball where middle relief is lights out... that just doesn't happen. The Sox have a championship caliber bullpen. That's really all I'm saying.

[cmaff05]

My point is that Papelbon and Timlin make it a championship caliber bullpen. Seriously, how many bullpens in baseball go deeper than their closer and set up man being automatic? After that, most bullpens (and I mean nearly all bullpens) have question marks. Otherwise, these guys wouldn't be middle relief. They'd be setting up or closing.

Rudy Seanez and Julian Tavarez are certainly questions, but you will still get quality innings out of them, especially if they're used properly. No bullpen in baseball is immune to giving up runs. But few can have the confidence in their set up man and closer that the Sox do.

There are very few set-up men better than Mike Timlin right now. But I wouldn't call him unhittable. He's got a whip of 1.22 which certainly is good but he's almost giving up a hit an inning.. in 27 innings he's giving up 26 hits. He certainly doesn't walk many people and my favorite thing about Timlin is that he doesn't give up the long ball very often. You are going to get no argument from me; Timlin is a very good set-up man. He'd certainly be on my team if I was a GM.

Middle relief I give to the Yankees because of the how good Ron Villone has been so far. I didn't expect him to be a 2 ERA pitcher, and although he might raise that up a bit, that's certainly very reliable. Scott Proctor has been good so far this year, but he's still the victim of the long ball more often than not and gets very overworked. With the Red Sox, I see Rudy Seanez improving..he's not a 5 ERA pitcher and I expect that to change. Julian Tavarez I see staying where he is and being the kind of pitcher you only use in the 5th or 6th inning.

Kyle Farnsworth on the other hand..

[Lucen]

And I'm going to be more specific here..

Lineups: The Red Sox have a great lineup, but the Yankees have the overall better lineup...no question.
Starting Pitching: both teams have better starting pitching than they did last year. Moose and Schilling are having incredible years, Wang and Wakefield are having great years, and Johnson and Beckett are inconsistent. The rest is up in the air.
Bullpen: Nobody has the clear advantage here. The Yankees have the better middle relief and obviously the best closer, but the Red Sox have the better bridge to their closer in Mike Timlin. The Red Sox middle relief isn't too shabby either, and it's close to a draw, but I think the Yankees have the slight advantage here.

The Yankees do not have a better line up right now. If they were entirely healthy, that would be a no brainer, but as it currently stands, the Sox have the superior lineup.

I agree with all of your statements about starting pitching, except lumping RJ and Beckett together. Beckett has had 3 rough starts all year. The rest of the year he's been very good or excellent. He's having a more productive year than Johnson, and is far less of a question right now. That could change, of course, but up to this point, you really can't compare the two.

And again, Mo isn't the best closer in baseball this year. That's an assumption based on history, and not on current statistics. It's just plain wrong. Papelbon is the better closer right now. Again, this could change, but as of right now, Mo is not better than Papelbon.

[SubwayFanatic]

And I'm going to be more specific here..

Lineups: The Red Sox have a great lineup, but the Yankees have the overall better lineup...no question.

We need Cano, Sheffield and Matsui back. Until then, there is no way the Yankees have unquestionably a better lineup.

[cmaff05]

I said he was "arguably" the best closer in baseball because, yes, Ryan has been lights out too. But there is no justification for declaring BJ as the superior closer at this point, especially since Papelbon is right there or slightly ahead of him in every statistic.

As for Rivera... this season, right now, at the present time, Papelbon is a superior closer. No one is talking about over the course of the last 10 years, no one is talking about career performances. We're talking about 2006, from April until July. Papelbon has been quite a bit better than Mo in that span, so yes, he can be the best before Mo retires. That's not a knock on Mo, but Papelbon has been remarkable.

So yes, Papelbon isn't likely to finish the year as a .45 ERA closer, but you can't honestly think it's likely Ryan will either. So your inference that Ryan is clearly above Papelbon just isn't accurate.

As for Seanez, yes, he's a question mark. But again, show me a bullpen in baseball where middle relief is lights out... that just doesn't happen. The Sox have a championship caliber bullpen. That's really all I'm saying.

I think by that logic you could consider the Yankees of 2004 and 2005 having a championship quality bullpen because they had Flash setting up and Mo closing... but they had Tanyon Sturtze and Felix Heredia as middle relief. But there's more to a bullpen than the set-up man and the closer. Although they are very important pieces.

[Lucen]

I think by that logic you could consider the Yankees of 2004 and 2005 having a championship quality bullpen because they had Flash setting up and Mo closing... but they had Tanyon Sturtze and Felix Heredia as middle relief. But there's more to a bullpen than the set-up man and the closer. Although they are very important pieces.

I'd say the Yankees had championship caliber bullpens those years. I'm pretty sure I didn't indicate otherwise. Again, show me all of the bullpens in 2006 that don't have questions in their middle relief. That's just how middle relief is. So to say Rudy Seanez or Julian Tavarez, or the youth of MDC or Hansen keeps the Sox pen from being good enough to help them win a title is just plain silly.

[BronxByTheBay]

I said he was "arguably" the best closer in baseball because, yes, Ryan has been lights out too. But there is no justification for declaring BJ as the superior closer at this point, especially since Papelbon is right there or slightly ahead of him in every statistic.

As for Rivera... this season, right now, at the present time, Papelbon is a superior closer. No one is talking about over the course of the last 10 years, no one is talking about career performances. We're talking about 2006, from April until July. Papelbon has been quite a bit better than Mo in that span, so yes, he can be the best before Mo retires. That's not a knock on Mo, but Papelbon has been remarkable.

So yes, Papelbon isn't likely to finish the year as a .45 ERA closer, but you can't honestly think it's likely Ryan will either. So your inference that Ryan is clearly above Papelbon just isn't accurate.

As for Seanez, yes, he's a question mark. But again, show me a bullpen in baseball where middle relief is lights out... that just doesn't happen. The Sox have a championship caliber bullpen. That's really all I'm saying.

I'd take Rivera over Papelbon for the rest of the season if given the option.

[jonnyc39]

Yeah.. the best closer in baseball.. that's Papelbon. If you want to talk about over the first few months, I think that award goes to B.J. Ryan. Come on, you can't think Papelbon will seriously keep up this pace. Papelbon is having an incredible hot streak, probably the best he'll have of his career. I think he'll revert into a 2 or high 1 ERA pitcher.. you can quote me on that too. Don't get me wrong, that's incredible for a rookie. And Mariano Rivera hasn't retired yet, so I don't see how Papelbon is the best closer in baseball. Timlin is a great setup man, I'll give you that. I just don't think he'll keep up his high 1 ERA this year. In any case, he'll be better than Farnsworth this year and maybe Octavio Dotel. And, are you talking about the Rudy Seanez of the 5 ERA variety?

The Red Sox have a better setup man, but the Yankees have arguably better middle relief, and the better closer in the long run.

Why is BJ Ryan a better closer than Papelbon this year? And you think Paps will become a high 1/low-2 releiver? Damn. I guess we'll have to settle for that. I'll reluctantly quote you.

[cmaff05]

The Yankees do not have a better line up right now. If they were entirely healthy, that would be a no brainer, but as it currently stands, the Sox have the superior lineup.

Agreed. But, When I was talking about the Yankees having a better lineup, I was talking about the playoffs and being a championship caliber team. And we would get back Robinson Cano, Gary Sheffield and Hideki Matsui back by then.

I agree with all of your statements about starting pitching, except lumping RJ and Beckett together. Beckett has had 3 rough starts all year. The rest of the year he's been very good or excellent. He's having a more productive year than Johnson, and is far less of a question right now. That could change, of course, but up to this point, you really can't compare the two.

If you are going to eliminate Beckett's bad starts, you should also eliminate the equivalent amount of Randy's starts, which would lower his ERA down a substancial amount. Now, I am not saying that Randy has been better than Beckett this year.. he hasn't, but they both have been inconsistent. And Randy showed last year that he could bounce back from a pretty bad first quarter (not this bad though) and be dominant. Beckett on the other hand has the recurring blister problem.

And again, Mo isn't the best closer in baseball this year. That's an assumption based on history, and not on current statistics. It's just plain wrong. Papelbon is the better closer right now. Again, this could change, but as of right now, Mo is not better than Papelbon.

By the end of the year, I'll put a bet on the fact that Mariano has a better ERA and all the important stuff than Papelbon. I'll buy you a hot dog or something if I'm wrong..

[Lucen]

I'd take Rivera over Papelbon for the rest of the season if given the option.

You're more than welcome to do that. And as a consolation prize, he's a pretty frickin sweet fall back. But that doesn't change the fact that statistically, Papelbon has been better than him by a pretty solid margin so far.

[BronxByTheBay]

You're more than welcome to do that. And as a consolation prize, he's a pretty frickin sweet fall back. But that doesn't change the fact that statistically, Papelbon has been better than him by a pretty solid margin so far.

I didn't argue otherwise. Statistically, Papelbon has been elite and there's no two ways about it. And I even think it's fair due to his age to suggest this could be the real deal.

But of course, I'm sure Dodgers fans believed the same as well as Astros fans. Closers are a funny breed. This is the reason I'd take Mo for the rest of the season, if not next year as well. They're all awesome until they're not so awesome. Mo's been the one guy who has been continually awesome.

[cmaff05]

I'd say the Yankees had championship caliber bullpens those years. I'm pretty sure I didn't indicate otherwise. Again, show me all of the bullpens in 2006 that don't have questions in their middle relief. That's just how middle relief is. So to say Rudy Seanez or Julian Tavarez, or the youth of MDC or Hansen keeps the Sox pen from being good enough to help them win a title is just plain silly.

Sometimes you aren't going to get 7 or 8 innings from your starters and be able to go straight to Timlin... you are going to have to use those guys in a playoff series. Not to mention extra-inning games and so on... having spotty middle relief isn't going to help you any in the playoffs. The Red Sox middle relief isn't mediocre by any means, but to overlook it as not important in the playoffs is stupid.

[Lucen]

Agreed. But, When I was talking about the Yankees having a better lineup, I was talking about the playoffs and being a championship caliber team. And we would get back Robinson Cano, Gary Sheffield and Hideki Matsui back by then.

There's a very real chance they won't get back and return to the form you're hoping for. I'd be hesitant to assume anything there... Cano is probably as close to a lock to return to form as it gets in that list, but Matsui might need extensive rehab before he can get his stroke back, and who knows how the surgury to Sheff will impact him.

If you are going to eliminate Beckett's bad starts, you should also eliminate the equivalent amount of Randy's starts, which would lower his ERA down a substancial amount. Now, I am not saying that Randy has been better than Beckett this year.. he hasn't, but they both have been inconsistent. And Randy showed last year that he could bounce back from a pretty bad first quarter (not this bad though) and be dominant. Beckett on the other hand has the recurring blister problem.

My point was that Beckett has had quite a few less "bad" starts than Johnson, and thus has been much less inconsistant. Both seem to be enjoying interleague lately, however, and there is obviously room for optimism with Johnson, but we just recently looked at quality starts here, and Johnson has quite a few less than Beckett to this point in the season. Beckett is far from Cy Young consideration, obviously, but I think he's a few steps ahead of Johnson, and seems to be hitting a good stride.

And how many games has he missed due to that blister problem so far? Oh, right... none.

By the end of the year, I'll put a bet on the fact that Mariano has a better ERA and all the important stuff than Papelbon. I'll buy you a hot dog or something if I'm wrong..

I'll take that bet any day of the week. Heck, it'd give me a good excuse to get to the stadium at some point this summer.

[jonnyc39]

They're all awesome until they're not so awesome. Mo's been the one guy who has been continually awesome.

Maybe my favorite bbtb quote.

I'd agree, obviously, though I think it'd still take Papelbon for the rest of this year. Next year? Who knows what might happen. But I don't think Papelbon will be the closer next year anyway, especially if he continues to develop his secondary pitches.

[Lucen]

I didn't argue otherwise. Statistically, Papelbon has been elite and there's no two ways about it. And I even think it's fair due to his age to suggest this could be the real deal.

But of course, I'm sure Dodgers fans believed the same as well as Astros fans. Closers are a funny breed. This is the reason I'd take Mo for the rest of the season, if not next year as well. They're all awesome until they're not so awesome. Mo's been the one guy who has been continually awesome.

True, but both the Dodgers and Houston got at least a full season out of their guys before they went south. For this season, I'm willing to bet on Papelbon... considering what he's done in the first half.

That's why comparisons to Mo's career are so silly. No one has done it like him before. I doubt anyone will any time soon. I don't think it's likely that Papelbon ends up being a 10 year closer who dominates every season. If they get 3 dominant seasons out of him, they've beaten the odds by a good margin.

Plus, there's still the possibility they'll put him in the rotation, so he might not even get the chance to give them more than a season of relief pitching.

Seems like we agree here.

Sometimes you aren't going to get 7 or 8 innings from your starters and be able to go straight to Timlin... you are going to have to use those guys in a playoff series. Not to mention extra-inning games and so on... having spotty middle relief isn't going to help you any in the playoffs. The Red Sox middle relief isn't mediocre by any means, but to overlook it as not important in the playoffs is stupid.

I'm not dismissing it as unimportant. Just saying that the Sox' middle relief really isn't much worse than most of the best teams in baseball, and that overall the pen is more than good enough to help the team win a championship. When Seanez has been used well (IE: not brought in with the bases loaded), he's been effective. Taverez is the arm I least trust in the pen, so he should be kept for mop up duty and emergency situations.

Hansen has been pretty solid, and seems to improve a bit with each appearance. He's learning on the job. MDC has also gotten better as the year has gone on. I'm not worried about the middle relief. I think it's good enough, especially when you consider the make up of the rest of the team, to help this team win a title.

[cmaff05]

There's a very real chance they won't get back and return to the form you're hoping for. I'd be hesitant to assume anything there... Cano is probably as close to a lock to return to form as it gets in that list, but Matsui might need extensive rehab before he can get his stroke back, and who knows how the surgury to Sheff will impact him.

To be honest, a 75% Matsui and 75% Sheffield in addition to a completely healthy Cano make the Yankee lineup better than the Red Sox lineup still.

My point was that Beckett has had quite a few less "bad" starts than Johnson, and thus has been much less inconsistant. Both seem to be enjoying interleague lately, however, and there is obviously room for optimism with Johnson, but we just recently looked at quality starts here, and Johnson has quite a few less than Beckett to this point in the season. Beckett is far from Cy Young consideration, obviously, but I think he's a few steps ahead of Johnson, and seems to be hitting a good stride.

Beckett has had more quality starts, but Randy has been very good lately and should be a very good pitcher for the Yankees down the stretch like last year. Beckett will be too, but he's giving up homers at a Randy rate this year.

And how many games has he missed due to that blister problem so far? Oh, right... none.

History shows he'll be on the DL sooner or later. It got a little better last year, but it's still apparently a chronic problem with him.

[blueguitar322]

Agreed. But, When I was talking about the Yankees having a better lineup, I was talking about the playoffs and being a championship caliber team. And we would get back Robinson Cano, Gary Sheffield and Hideki Matsui back by then.

I tend to think only one of the Sox/Yanks/Jays will make the playoffs. Then again, the Tigers could be just like the '05 Birds who, as I recall, were in first place at this time last year with pundits saying all the same things about them.

Now, I am not saying that Randy has been better than Beckett this year.. he hasn't, but they both have been inconsistent.

Yes both have been inconsistent...but 9 of 16 Beckett starts have been 7+ innings...compare to Johnson where only 6 of 17 games have been 7+ innings. Apart from that, both have been marred by a few terrible starts.

Beckett on the other hand has the recurring blister problem.

Beckett is not 42 with bad knees though. This is already the longest Beckett has been able to go in a season without missing a start (by 2 weeks) so hopefully the blister problems have largely disappeared for him (like they largely did for Lowe at one point in Boston; there was a lot of talk when they traded for Beckett about how their past experience with Lowe's blisters could prove invaluable)

[jonnyc39]

To be honest, a 75% Matsui and 75% Sheffield in addition to a completely healthy Cano make the Yankee lineup better than the Red Sox lineup still.

How can you be so sure? It wasn't much better than Boston's before they got injured, and now Boston is playing much better.

I'm not saying Boston's "healthy" offense is better than New York's, but nothing is hands-down. No way.

[Lucen]

To be honest, a 75% Matsui and 75% Sheffield in addition to a completely healthy Cano make the Yankee lineup better than the Red Sox lineup still.

Getting 75% with them isn't a given. They might not even hit their stride until October, at which point the Yankees will have had to make the playoffs without them. Honestly, I think that's asking a lot unless a few of your pitchers have much better second halfs than they had first halfs.

Beckett has had more quality starts, but Randy has been very good lately and should be a very good pitcher for the Yankees down the stretch like last year. Beckett will be too, but he's giving up homers at a Randy rate this year.

Again, it's entirely possible Beckett has a major meltdown and finishes the season like Clement did last year. But at this point, he's been more consistant than Randy, so at this point, I don't think they can be lumped into the same category. Might change, it might not. But as of now, Beckett has been more consistant.

I like his chances going forward. He's younger, and still has 97 mph heat.

History shows he'll be on the DL sooner or later. It got a little better last year, but it's still apparently a chronic problem with him.

Blueguitar hit the nail on the head. They were able to minimize Lowe's blister problems to the point where they weren't even a concern anymore. I see no reason to assume it'll be a significant problem for Beckett going forward at this point.

[BronxByTheBay]

Maybe my favorite bbtb quote.

I didn't think such a thing even existed.

I'd agree, obviously, though I think it'd still take Papelbon for the rest of this year.

I wouldn't. My belief is a correction is coming. The only question is how much of one. Then again, maybe Papelbon really is the heir to the throne. I guess that's why we watch the games, eh?

[blueguitar322]

To be honest, a 75% Matsui and 75% Sheffield in addition to a completely healthy Cano make the Yankee lineup better than the Red Sox lineup still.

No, a 75% Matsui and 75% Sheffield will give the Yankees a more recognizable lineup than the Red Sox, at least to the average Joe. It might end up being better, but realize that at this point the Red Sox are top two in OBP and runs scored. The Red Sox lineup now reminds me more of the 96-2000 Yankees lineup - featuring solid, dependable role players like Lowell and Loretta anchored by a great leadoff hitter (Youks) and one of baseball's best 3-4 combos.

Two areas where I think the Sox have a huge advantage over the Yankees, now and for the rest of the season:

(1) Bench - especially when Pena returns
(2) Defense

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

How can you be so sure? It wasn't much better than Boston's before they got injured, and now Boston is playing much better.

I'm not saying Boston's "healthy" offense is better than New York's, but nothing is hands-down. No way.

Well Matsui was in a slump before he went down, he did the same thing last year and then had a killer second half. Sheffield was just starting to come around before going down. A-rod has been in a season long slump hopefully that walkoff gets him going, and he carries our asses along with Giambi until reinforcements arrive. I firmly believe that if everybody was healthy we would have the best offense in baseball, pretty easily. Sheffield and Matsui are both intiminating hitters and provide protection for everbody else, its sad that we lost them both on two huge flukes.

[cmaff05]

How can you be so sure? It wasn't much better than Boston's before they got injured, and now Boston is playing much better.

I'm not saying Boston's "healthy" offense is better than New York's, but nothing is hands-down. No way.

Boston is on a winning streak where they are doing everything right. You can't expect people like Gabe Kapler and Alex Gonzalez to consist hit 2 and 3 run bombs every day. They'll revert back to form.

RF: Sheffield/Nixon: Nixon's having a contract year type performance, but even a 75% Sheffield can be as effective as Nixon.
CF: Damon/Crisp: Damon will put up better numbers this year.. the next few years, we'll see.
LF: Ramirez/Matsui: Ramirez no question...but Matsui is not shmuck either.
1B: Phillips/Youkillis: Youkillis because he gets on base a ton.
2B: Loretta/Cano: Cano's a better hitter but Loretta gets on base more.. I think this is pretty equal.
SS: Jeter/Gonzalez: Are you kidding me?!
3B: Lowell/Arod: I love Lowell, he's one of the best defensive third basemen I've ever seen and he swings a nice bat, but we are talking about Arod here.
C: Posada/Varitek: Posada is having a better year
DH: Giambi/Ortiz: Giambi is having a better year this year.. although Big Papi is Big Papi.

[jonnyc39]

The Red Sox lineup now reminds me more of the 96-2000 Yankees lineup - featuring solid, dependable role players like Lowell and Loretta anchored by a great leadoff hitter (Youks) and one of baseball's best 3-4 combos.

I would agree with you for the time being, but, the Sox are the playing the best ball they could possibly play right now. Earlier this season they were frustrating the hell out of me. I expect the rest of the season to fall somewhere in between, in which case a comparison to the '98-ish Yankees might not be warranted. I do hope to see it, though.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Getting 75% with them isn't a given. They might not even hit their stride until October, at which point the Yankees will have had to make the playoffs without them. Honestly, I think that's asking a lot unless a few of your pitchers have much better second halfs than they had first halfs.



Again, it's entirely possible Beckett has a major meltdown and finishes the season like Clement did last year. But at this point, he's been more consistant than Randy, so at this point, I don't think they can be lumped into the same category. Might change, it might not. But as of now, Beckett has been more consistant.

I like his chances going forward. He's younger, and still has 97 mph heat.



Blueguitar hit the nail on the head. They were able to minimize Lowe's blister problems to the point where they weren't even a concern anymore. I see no reason to assume it'll be a significant problem for Beckett going forward at this point.

Im not worry about making the playoffs without Sheff and Matsui, I am pretty confident we will win the division. The problem is I dont expect much from them until next year.

[blueguitar322]

][/FONT]I wouldn't. My belief is a correction is coming. The only question is how much of one. Then again, maybe Papelbon really is the heir to the throne. I guess that's why we watch the games, eh?

Comparing a rookie to Rivera (outside of the very specific one-time "Papelbon pitched just like Rivera last night)is absolutely premature.

The reason I think Paps has a good shot is because he was nails in the playoffs last year (just about the only Sox pitcher to be), had a long winter to think about it complete with typical Boston/NY hype and unrealistic expectations...and came in this year only to surpass (so far) even the most optimistic expectations.

Surviving the post-season + having the type of Boston winter he did has greatly increased his odds at longevity.

[Lucen]

I didn't think such a thing even existed.



I wouldn't. My belief is a correction is coming. The only question is how much of one. Then again, maybe Papelbon really is the heir to the throne. I guess that's why we watch the games, eh?

I think even the most optimistic Sox fan sees a correction coming. As you mention here, the question is how much? At this point, if he finishes the year with 80 innings pitched, he'll need to allow 15 runs in his last 40 innings to end up with a higher ERA than Mo.

That's a 3.37 ERA for the rest of the year, which is a major collapse relatively speaking.

My guess is he finishes with an ERA around the 1.0 mark. Either slightly below or slightly above.

If he allows 6 more runs in the second half, he finishes with a .90 ERA. That's 1.35 for the second half. 7 runs in the second half has him finishing at 1.01. That's an era of 1.57.

If I had to guess right now, I'd say he's probably likely to throw somewhere around the 1.5 range in the second half, which leaves him just over 1 for the year. I could be wrong, though.

[Lucen]

DH: Giambi/Ortiz: Giambi is having a better year this year.. although Big Papi is Big Papi.

David Ortiz: .271/.380/.559/.939 23 HR 70 RBI
Jason Giambi: .271/.431/.624/.1055 23 HR 62 RBI

Seems like Giambi may have the edge right now, but it's still a little too close to simply declare Giambi better this year.

[JDPNYY]

What was the question?



Edit...

Oh, I looked it up:

Yankee fans: are you rooting for the Mets or Red Sawx this series?

[cmaff05]

David Ortiz: .271/.380/.559/.939 23 HR 70 RBI
Jason Giambi: .271/.431/.624/.1055 23 HR 62 RBI

Seems like Giambi may have the edge right now, but it's still a little too close to simply declare Giambi better this year.

That's why I said Big Papi is Big Papi. I think there is room for improvement.

[cmaff05]

Im not worry about making the playoffs without Sheff and Matsui, I am pretty confident we will win the division. The problem is I dont expect much from them until next year.

I agree. I think the Yankees have a good enough team to win the division, even with all the injuries. The Red Sox have a really good team. But somehow the Yankees find out a way to win the division every year.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

David Ortiz: .271/.380/.559/.939 23 HR 70 RBI
Jason Giambi: .271/.431/.624/.1055 23 HR 62 RBI

Seems like Giambi may have the edge right now, but it's still a little too close to simply declare Giambi better this year.

Umm more than 100 point advantage in OPS is having the better year, and its not that close. I dont see it changing unless teams for some reason take the shift off Ortiz, or he finds a way around it.

[Lucen]

I agree. I think the Yankees have a good enough team to win the division, even with all the injuries. The Red Sox have a really good team. But somehow the Yankees find out a way to win the division every year.

I'd be careful about relying on the past to carry you in the present. I'm not saying the Sox have it locked down. But it's going to take a good run in the second half for the Yankees to surpass them. Considering the injuries and the 4 game lead, the Sox have the advantage. The Yankees, even being depleted, are definately capable of taking the division, but this Sox team isn't going to hand it to them. They're too good defensively, and the pitching is just good enough that they aren't going to lose too many games that they shouldn't.

The offense is going to cool down at some point, and the 5th starter (who knows who it'll be) and Beckett are obviously going to have a few bad starts before the season ends. And of course, Lester will go through growing pains. But overall, the pitching staff should keep them in most games, and give them a chance to win on most nights.

[cmaff05]

I'd be careful about relying on the past to carry you in the present. I'm not saying the Sox have it locked down. But it's going to take a good run in the second half for the Yankees to surpass them. Considering the injuries and the 4 game lead, the Sox have the advantage. The Yankees, even being depleted, are definately capable of taking the division, but this Sox team isn't going to hand it to them. They're too good defensively, and the pitching is just good enough that they aren't going to lose too many games that they shouldn't.

The offense is going to cool down at some point, and the 5th starter (who knows who it'll be) and Beckett are obviously going to have a few bad starts before the season ends. And of course, Lester will go through growing pains. But overall, the pitching staff should keep them in most games, and give them a chance to win on most nights.

The Yankees have yet to go on a substancial winning streak... and the Red Sox have had probably their best winning streak of the season and still haven't put the Yankees away. This division is up for grabs, and the Red Sox do not have to hand it to the Yankees. There are still plenty of games to be played between each other.. and that's where the Yankees will make up games and can move ahead in the standings.

The point is, the difference in the two teams is remote: They can both win the World Series and/or the division. And those Mets, who this original post was about, can also win the World series.

[JDPNYY]

What was the question?



Edit...

Oh, I looked it up:

Yankee fans: are you rooting for the Mets or Red Sawx this series?

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Euclis]

Maybe I'm wrong.

Well, since the series is over, it needs something else to keep it near the top...much easier to bump come October

[Hitman23]

Stupid Mets.

This must be what it's like to be a Mets fan. We needed them to win more then anything and they choked for 3 games.

Crisp's catch is up there with the best of the season. Awesome catch at what couldn't have been a better time. The sheer clutchness of it makes it bigger then how pretty it looked.

[Smithers]

Rowand

Eh that's for Rowand...but certainly that was the catch of the Red Sox year. What a great catch though.

i'm surprised. i would have thought NY fans would have been up in arms because even i think Melky's catch was the best so far this year.

[35Knucklecurve]

I felt weird rooting for Pedro, but it didn't help him much. He pretty much imploded along with the rest of the team. I thought they might pull one out last night, but I swear, Ortiz is NOT from this planet. I didn't know he was a speed demon too, although I suspect he was administered oxygen when the inning was over.

Just goes to show that even the best NL team is still not in the same league (pun intended) with the AL. I'm hoping the Mets are still reeling this weekend.

Of course I'm rooting for Pee-dro (Who's your daddy? ) and the Amazin' Mets! Unfortunately the BloSux are killing them today. Of course Little Pee-dro got slaughtered, the one time I wanted him to do well.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

i'm surprised. i would have thought NY fans would have been up in arms because even i think Melky's catch was the best so far this year.

Melkys catch was great, but Rowand's was something else, he went face first into a wall to take away either a homer or a double without any fear at all.

[hunter05]

well, it wouldn't have been a homer, not even an inside the park, but it would have been pretty easily a bases clearing triple or double.

[Lucen]

Melkys catch was great, but Rowand's was something else, he went face first into a wall to take away either a homer or a double without fear.

Rowand's catch did not bring back a homer. He took two steps after making it before hitting the wall. It was his momentum that drove his face into the wall, and what makes that catch so spectacular is how he was willing to sacrifice his body to get to that ball. Most guys hesitate or pull up... he just kept going and to hell with the consiquences. That's what makes that play so great, and I agree that it sits ahead of Coco's catch.

As for the Mets against the Yankees, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Mets win a game or two. The Red Sox are absolutely on fire right now. Everything is going our way. I don't think this series is an accurate indication of the seperation between the two leauges. It's just what happens when a hot team stays hot.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Rowand's catch did not bring back a homer. He took two steps after making it before hitting the wall. It was his momentum that drove his face into the wall, and what makes that catch so spectacular is how he was willing to sacrifice his body to get to that ball. Most guys hesitate or pull up... he just kept going and to hell with the consiquences. That's what makes that play so great, and I agree that it sits ahead of Coco's catch.

As for the Mets against the Yankees, it wouldn't surprise me to see the Mets win a game or two. The Red Sox are absolutely on fire right now. Everything is going our way. I don't think this series is an accurate indication of the seperation between the two leauges. It's just what happens when a hot team stays hot.

I agree with the catch part, I didnt know if it would have been a homer or double so I put both. The main part of the sentence was the without fear part.

As for the Mets and Yankees, I am predicting a hot streak for the Yankees, or more like one for A-rod, which would pretty much make it a hot streak for the Yankees, so I wouldnt be surprised if we even sweep if I am right(id say im right like 2% of the time)

[Lucen]

I agree with the catch part, I didnt know if it would have been a homer or double so I put both. The main part of the sentence was the without fear part.

As for the Mets and Yankees, I am predicting a hot streak for the Yankees, or more like one for A-rod, which would pretty much make it a hot streak for the Yankees, so I wouldnt be surprised if we even sweep if I am right(id say im right like 2% of the time)

I'm not saying the Yankees can't win the series. They certainly have the advantage in the pitching matchups. I'm just saying that people shouldn't set the bar for how good the best of the NL is by what happened in Fenway the last three days. The Sox are insanely hot right now, and it's not fair to say that the Mets aren't "in the same league" (har har) as the AL teams because the Sox swept them.

If the Yankees lose a game or even two, it won't be surprising. The Mets are a good team with a solid offense and some good pitching. They didn't get a chance to show it in Boston, but their bullpen is decent, and Wagner is pretty good a closing the door.

If ARod does get hot, and the Yankees pitchers come through, they can and probably should win. But a Mets win shouldn't be a shock.

[26 and counting]

Well, for once I get to watch every single game of a Mets-Yankees series. God bless paid vacations from work!