Manny and Ortiz are the best I've ever seen, and unfortunately they are still around to do it.
Manny and Ortiz are the best I've ever seen, and unfortunately they are still around to do it.
That's funny- a sawx fan complaining about favorable park dimensionsOriginally Posted by SoxfaninNY
Read my post about EQA above- it's adjusted for park effect
" They turned Pete into a hornytoad!!!"
PS- life in the "209" near Yosemite- I was on a road bike ride yesterday and encountered a ( large ) bear in the middle of the road
That's funny- a yankee fan claiming I'm complaining about park dimensions when I'm merely stating a fact.
I saw your post about EQA, and I'll reiterate that I never claimed Manny and Ortiz are better than Ruth and Gehrig were.
Just having some fun. Too bad you let it get under your skin.
To the foul pole. And 490 to left-center, 487 to center and 429 to right-center. Try again.
http://www.ballparks.com/baseball/index.htm
But, but, the green wall has a fuzzy dolly named Wally named after it and you can buy one to take home with you- doesn't that count for anything???
" They turned Pete into a hornytoad!!!"
PS- life in the "209" near Yosemite- I was on a road bike ride yesterday and encountered a ( large ) bear in the middle of the road
I think it was that they were the first to do that in back-to-back seasons. I know there is a record that they set - Eddy's right that they were not the first to do it at all, but they may have been the first to do it back to back.Gee, ya think?
1927
Ruth: .356, 29 2B, 60 HR, 164 RBI
Gehrig: .373, 52 2B, 47 HR, 175 RBI
Guess Babe should have stopped at 2nd on 11 of those homers.
Why must people make comments like this when we're trying to talk about baseball? As Sox fans here we are forced to be respectful to fellow posters (we'll be banned otherwise, which is fine). So why belittle someone else's point of view when everyone thus far has been doing their best to keep the level of conversation at least somewhat high?
Sorry if you think I'm being overly sensative - I just don't understand what comments like these add to the conversation.
Manny and Ortiz actually were the first to do it. You'll notice that Ruth didn't have 40 doubles...but regardless, we could cherry pick stats to prove anything we want. Manny and Ortiz certainly are playing in a different era than Ruth and Gherig - there's no way the latter would put up the same numbers if they were playing today. But it's pointless to compare eras - both sets of 3-4 hitters have the luxury of saying that they were the best of their day, IMO.
You're not going to get me to argue about the ability of Babe Ruth. that's absurd. But YS obviously had a deep parabola back then, because left field was 280ft., and yes, deep right center was 429, and short right center was 350. and right field was 294.
The main point I'm making is that with modern pitching, and park effects (to a MUCH smaller effect in this case) allow a certain amount of discussion about the two pairs of 3-4 hitters involved.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. There's no way of comparing when you go back 80+ years.
FWIW, in Rob Neyer's "Baseball Dynasties" book, he says Ruth hit 511 home runs during the seasons he played in Yankee Stadium — 259 at home, 252 on the road. So at least with regard to that stat, the park had pretty much a neutral effect (don't know Gehrig's splits).
Actually, where great 3-4 duos are concerned, I don't know why Woodie Held and Willie "Boom Boom" Kirkland aren't getting more play:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1962.shtml
Gehrig played the field. Nuff said.
If I had 3 wishes... One of my wishes would be to make a select few of you Pirates Fans.
I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about batting lineups. Bonds plays the field also, although I have a feeling he'd be more valuable to the Giants if he could DH.
EQA is adjusted for league offensive totals.
So... yes. There is a way. It was posted a few posts up.
Brian "Stick" Cashman will never let his fans down
Even in modern day, Pujols and either Edmonds-Rolen is better. Bonds was such a beast the last few years, that he coupled with just about any one of the Giants regulars is better. Delgado-Cabrera last year. Giambi-ARod last year. Beltran-Berkman in 2004. Olerud-Piazza in 1998. There are probably many, many others that are comparable or better over the last decade or so, nevermind baseball history.
It has been a nice run for Manny & Ortizzle, but it's hardly historic. The entire lineup has been very deep in Boston for the last three years.
Sigh. Hasn't this conversation been about their tandem as hitters? Yeah, I know - they need to be run down because the are Sox players. Silly me.
sigh.
If I had 3 wishes... One of my wishes would be to make a select few of you Pirates Fans.
No, that was Ruth. Oh, you mean DURING the game ...
sigh.
If I had 3 wishes... One of my wishes would be to make a select few of you Pirates Fans.
Sorry, but even if I give you all your other points, Manny and Ortiz's 2004 is certainly historic, like it or not.
See....
Now that is the proper response to my post.
Well done.
If I had 3 wishes... One of my wishes would be to make a select few of you Pirates Fans.
Then he'd really be above the rules, eh?
But... not really. A player is the sum of all parts, so by playing the field, he is inherently more valuable. This is how systems like VORP adjust for defense - by position. (LF, by the way, is not that much higher than DH, but DH adds no value.)
Assuming he's a few shades below average (and I really have no feel for how good/bad a defender he is), he's more valuable than replacement level. Plus, it would take a very big effort on his part to offset his offensive production based on his defense.
ROFL. Fair enough.
Sometimes it just feels like there is an unnecessary need to run down all things Red Sox on this site. I know that the teams are rivals, but it gets old after a while. Sorry for the remark JD.
When the word "ever" is invoked, it invites comparison between eras -- doesn't it?
No apology necessary.
If I had 3 wishes... One of my wishes would be to make a select few of you Pirates Fans.
What do you mean unfortunately? Do you not like them?
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
Yes, this is true, sure. Even if Loretta qualified it with a "maybe" or a "one of the"... Anyways, it's friday and my ladyfriend is home, so you guys have a good night.
As for stats, you have to use a measure that throws out defense, because alot of Arods value in VORP etc comes cheaply (as a 3B/SS, he gets credit for gimme ground balls that go to him, even though he doesn't nessicarilly do anything special [no range] to earn it).
Arods offense by itself only earns him about 50 VORP, which honestly isn't that special.
Granted, he is a infielder doing these things together (defense, steals and ofense), which makes Arod a great player, but hes really not the dominant offensive force that Ortiz or Manny is.
I for one would rather see Arod hit in the clutch to win a World series, than to see him compile fantasy stats, and see the team lose in the playoffs year after year. I mean hes been on an all All-Star team with a 200M payroll for three (?) years, and he hasn't done sqaut in the playoffs. Someone needs to call him out on it.
Wow, I can't believe there are still "Yankee" fans that need convincing but here goes.
Without ARod the Yanks wouldn't have beaten the Twins in 2004. In fact if Mo saves game 4 I bet ARod would have been the MVP of the ALCS. Last year ARod struggled as did several Yankees and it's stupid to blame him more than others.
Is Jeter a lock? Does he have HOF type numbers? I am sorry I am not up to date on my Yankees stats.
I actually like and respect Jeter because he is a team player and plays his heart out and I would like to see him in the hall over any of the other Yankees. I am just not sure if he is a lock.
2004 and 2007 Boston Red Sox World Series Champs!
Marietta_soxfan = guy
Alex Rodriguez is a better player than Ortiz or Ramirez strictly on offense, before bringing defense into the equation. You noted yourself the difference in VORP (99.7, compared to 85.8 and 68.6).
Want a strictly offensive statistic? How about equivalent average, where he still completely trounces either of the two (.350 compared to .336 and .329.)
Nope. Playing a position near the bottom of the defensive spectrum doesn't auto-magically give you 50 VORP, or Vinny Castilla would have a higher VORP than Gary Sheffield.Arods offense by itself only earns him about 50 VORP, which honestly isn't that special.
Again, wrong.Granted, he is a infielder doing these things together (defense, steals and ofense), which makes Arod a great player, but hes really not the dominant offensive force that Ortiz or Manny is.
I for one would rather see Arod hit in the clutch to win a World series, than to see him compile fantasy stats, and see the team lose in the playoffs year after year.First of all, two years, and were it not for him, Gordon wouldn't have been given a chance to squander the 2004 ALCS.I mean hes been on an all All-Star team with a 200M payroll for three (?) years, and he hasn't done sqaut in the playoffs. Someone needs to call him out on it.
And as for someone needing to call him out... have you ever read Newsday? The Daily News? Hell, even half of this forum before they were scared off with statistics.
He'll be in the Hall of Fame, but not for the statistical reasons he deserves it (OPS+, etc). It's the 4+ rings that the sportswriters go for.
Why is A-Rod even part of this arguement? I could have sworn it was an arguement for or against Manny/Ortiz being one of the best 3-4 ever. There have been soem sick 3-4 and Manny and Ortiz are one of the better ones. Are they the best? No, they arn't the best but they are however the best in a while as far as dominating baseball the last 2 years. But then again its not like the golden days where you stayed with your team forever. With the player movement now there will never by a Babe/Gerhig because people simply are not teammates long enough. Its a stupid pointless arguement thats just going to make people go in circles.
dont get me wrong I love Loretta and hate to see him end up with the redsox. HOWEVER For this guy to think he can be the AL Batting champ over the likes of Arod Texeira Ichiro.. well then again we did see Bill Mueller win one. so who knows.
You talk about winning batting titles, yet you use Arod and Mark Teixeira? Arod, based on what, 1996? He's never hit within 36 points of that before, or since. Mark Teixeira?! Come on.
If he said "one of the...etc." then he's somewhat right IMO. They're one of the best in Boston Red Sox history. One must give props to other team's past sluggers.
No, I think it's based on last year. That .321 average of Alex's was what had him in so many Triple Crown discussions last year. A-Rod doesn't hit lightly buddy.
this thread is a joke.
You can use EQA to compare their contributions across eras but I hope you are not saying EQA predicts how Ruth and Gehrig would would actually fare playing in 2006, or how Manny and Big Pappi would play in 1927.
No one can reliably answer that ?.
It's our game, the American game... and a blessing to us. --Walt Whitman
Love how there is a 4 page thread because the website misquoted loretta.
I love how certain fans jump up and are quick to defend their boys when we're ragging on them.True, it was misquoted but that happens from time to time with people trying to start threads. I got one of mine locked once because I mixed it up so badly.
Ortiz hits alot of HR and doubles to Left/Left Center, old Yankee Stadium would have killed alot of his power.
So do Mickey and Roger.
Hey, look at the context. The post I was responding to was a sawx fan making a dim comment on how Ruth really had the edge because he played in YS, where the right field foul pole distance was short- ignoring the other dimensions and the fact that he hit the same on the road. The idea of a swax fan complaining about how the unique dimensions of a park made it easier to hit tickled me
It was a joke- chill out
" They turned Pete into a hornytoad!!!"
PS- life in the "209" near Yosemite- I was on a road bike ride yesterday and encountered a ( large ) bear in the middle of the road
the best in a while as far as dominating baseball the last 2 years
Again, youve been shown stats that show many duos that equal or surpass Ortiz/Manny and you continue the same mistaken notion
" They turned Pete into a hornytoad!!!"
PS- life in the "209" near Yosemite- I was on a road bike ride yesterday and encountered a ( large ) bear in the middle of the road
In a discussion of Manny/Ortiz vs. ARod/Giambi over who was the better 3/4 combo in 2005, I don't think VORP is an appropriate stat to look at. That's because VORP is a position dependent stat, and we aren't discussing positional offensive value but overall offensive value. Thus, looking at EqA can lead us to a better conclusion. However, EqA is not playing time dependent, and time on the field matters, so I think EqR is more fair.
That gives ARod/Giambi a total of 256.1 total runs to Ortiz/Manny's 259.5. That's only a 3.4 difference, or about a 1/3 of a win. Hardly a considerable difference. But, EqR is computed in a vaccum. It is situation independent. When looking back at a season to determine overall offensive value, the timing of when the stats that makeup EqA/EqR occur does matter as it results in actual runs. I'm not talking about C&L or RISP splits, those reduce the sample size too much IMO. However, RBI Opps. is a large enough sample and it encompasses all types of game situations.Code:Player EqA Outs EqR ARod .350 417 150.8 Giambi .344 304 105.3 Ortiz .336 421 137.6 Manny .329 392 121.9
R1 - runner on 1st, R2 - runner on second, R3 - runner on third, TBR - total base runners, BI - (RBI-HR), rate - (BI/TBR)Code:Player PA R1 R2 R3 TBR BI rate ARod 715 252 180 84 516 82 0.1589 Giambi 545 201 116 59 376 55 0.1463 Ortiz 713 262 175 69 506 101 0.1996 Manny 650 248 151 94 493 99 0.2008
The Ortiz vs. ARod comparison shows that they had almost identical numbers in each of the opportunity categories, but Ortiz produced 19 more runs from those opportunities. The Manny vs. Giambi comparison is a little more complicated. On the lower end, which favors the Yankees because it produces a smaller difference, Manny's rate would produce 75 RBI with the number of TBR Giambi had. That is a 20 run difference in the Sox' favor. On the upper end, which favors the Sox because it produces a larger difference, Giambi's rate would produce 72 runs with the number of TBR Manny had, which is a 27 run difference in the Sox' favor.
The balance sheet total [ 3 + 19 + (20 or 27)] shows that Boston's 3/4 produced 42 - 49 more runs in 2005 than NY's 3/4 did. Now, I know that Giambi didn't hit cleanup for most of the year, however, I didn't throw his name into the mix either.
EDIT: Math - I forgot to carry the 1; ARod/Giambi had 256.1 EqR combined not 156.1. Ortiz/Manny 259.5 not 159.5.
Last edited by OneRedSeat; 02-25-06 at 11:39 AM.
Ignorance reigns supreme, eh? Manny sure. Although A-Rod had a better 2005, Manny has been the better hitter over their careers, pretty consistently. But A-Rod has been better than Ortiz over their careers and pretty much every year but 2004. It's always amusing seeing people spew inaccuracies in attempts to bash A-Rod.
So what duo has been as good as them for the past two years? Lets name some because I can't think of any that have BOTH had TWO great years in a row. I really can't. A-Rod and Giambi? Well Giambi was nothing in '04 and last year he was horrible for half the season and an MVP for the other half. I seriously can't think of any that over the course of the last two years, hell or even three years have been as good and consistent as them.
The argument was Arod/sheff v ortiz/manny
Sheff's EQR was 118 last year- giving the yanks pair a total of 168.8 v 159.5 for the sawx pair- clear win to the Yanks
Giambi struggled through the first part of the season, so I assume you know using him would bias things the sawx way
Nice try.
The argument posed was best ever/clearly dominating-- good luck there
" They turned Pete into a hornytoad!!!"
PS- life in the "209" near Yosemite- I was on a road bike ride yesterday and encountered a ( large ) bear in the middle of the road
No one's trying to say Manny/Ortiz are garbage, but to DOMINATE would mean lapping the field, which they haven't.
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