No idea if this was posted on here before (sorry if it was), but MGL released the 2005 UZR numbers for the Yankee defenders in this interview.
Giambi 0 (chastized for his defense, which isn't THAT bad)
Cano -1
Jeter -8
A-Rod +1
Matsui -2 (not that bad at all, he had some solid days in LF this year along with some not-so-solid ones)
Bernie/Damon -12/-6
Sheff -20
Posada +4 (GO JORGE!)
Discuss.
Originally Posted by 27IsNext
@ Sheff.
And I'm surprised about Jeter, I thought he'd be closer to zero.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
Someone help me out here. How could Bernie be -12? Wasn't he something like -42 in 2004 or am I having a false memory?
Normally I don't subscribe to the "moderator police" system. But this should be in Sabermatics, where I won't see it, because I'm not interested in it.
Andy
Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.
I think that's because Bernie played less games at CF this year. I could be wrong though.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
That is what I thought originally but baseball-reference says otherwise (112 in 2005, 97 in 2004). But that does not seem right either. Where is one of those stat guys when I need him?
Someone should ask Soriambi, he'd know.That is what I thought originally but baseball-reference says otherwise (112 in 2005, 97 in 2004). But that does not seem right either. Where is one of those stat guys when I need him?
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
When Bernie put up his -44, he suffered from injuries which seriously limited his range.
Also, Bernie's biggest weakness is his arm, which is not accounted for in UZR.
If you factor in DP/Arm Runs, Bernie is about another -12.
Nope.
UZR is per 162 games played.
Got it. Thank you.
Thanks SODM.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
3-year totals are usually much better data for UZR (per Bernie, for example). Too bad he doesn't release that stuff for free anymore.
An excellent point. Apparently a single year's data isn't very reliable, and regularly consistent players have large variations in their defensive contributions from one year to the next (e.g. Kotsay 2004-5, Jeter 2003-4, etc.) Bernie's probably somewhere between his -12 last year and his -44 the year before, which is plenty bad enough.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
How does a catcher have a zone rating?
Mainly pop-ups, I think. Maybe fielding bunts. I wouldn't put too much stock in it.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
That was my thought. I would assume it's a fairly useless measurement for a catcher.
Yeah, it's pretty unimportant, and has a small spread. The traditional stuff, throwing out runners, passed balls, are pretty important for catcher defense.
UZR for a catcher is basically worthless.
True, but there's no real measure to quantify how bad Posada can be. He doesn't block balls in the dirt too well, and those are recorded as wild pitches. He never blocks the plate, he is a horrible receiver of pitches, etc. He does have a good arm, which is his only real above average characteristic as a defender.
Agreed. Can't take too much from 1 season of UZR. Giambi is worse than a 0, that's for sure.
“I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.”
I know.
wow! Sheffield really needs to improve on his D, Torre should consider moving him to DH and Bubba to RF.
He has Jeter here at -14:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...l_gold_gloves/
So which one is it?
Calmer than you are.
How can they extrapolate what Bernie would have done had he been forced to play 162 games? I don't have a quarrel with you but given his age and health situation if Bernie had played say 150 games in CF his rating would be much worse than it is.
Single-year UZR numbers are close to meaningless anyway.
Brian "Stick" Cashman will never let his fans down
The system is constantly being refined.
"I love Hughes, really I'm not kidding here, I am in love with him, I'm a straight male and I don't even know what he looks like, but I am in love."-JeterRodriguezSheff
The stat is meant to isolate defensive ability. Giving an advantage or disadvantage because of playing time doesn't make sense.
Think of it more like a rate stat.
Perhaps.
That's why sample size is critical in using this kind of analysis.
Foul balls (which are the majority of pop-ups a catcher makes plays on)are also not considered "in the zone".
Saying UZR for catchers is not very usefull is quite an understatement.
man i cant believe Jeter is at -8 I never would have thought. SS is a tough position though.
Interesting the guys we consider our worst defenders (Cano, Giambi) are statistically (by this, anyway) among our best
You're on the right track in that it is exrapolated, but it is actually per 150 games.
From 2000-2003 he was at -28/150 games.
I probably should've mentioned that those numbers are probably more accurate, since they are over a span of several years. (MGL says so.) Of course, this doesn't factor age, which probably explains Damon's negative number this year vs. his positive number from 2000-2003.
Do you know what he is for 04/05 only? I remember not liking him much as a SS until 04. I mean I didn't hate him as a SS, but personally thought he was near the bottom. If this stat is worth anything I think it will show he's improved quite a bit in 04/05...by eye he looks like a different player.
'04 Jeter's UZR was 0. '05 Jeter's UZR was -8. I wish MGL would factor those two in and do an "'00-'05" UZR count.
Just like I thought. Its way down from -28. I don't watch enough other SS consistantly to give an honest prediction of where Jeter is at, but I'm comfortable with him and would estimate he's better than average the last two years.
No he wasn't. People have to understand something-Jeter fields well when he can get to a ball. However, he doesn't get to nearly as many balls as other SS do-his range is pretty bad. For example, his catch against the Sox a few years ago was good, but people were hailing it as an all-time great play. He actually caught the ball AT the foul line; he didn't dive into the stands to catch it (his momentum carried him in). The point is that most SS wouldn't have gone into the stands.
I think the big difference in rating Jeter between '00-'03 (when data was publicly available) and '04-'05 (when MGL was hired by the Cardinals and only "leaked" a few scores) is the move of ARod to 3B for the Yankees.
There isn't a modern defensive measure on the planet that really likes Jeter at SS. (SI did a look at this a little while ago, some of the more conventional/worthless (like feilding%) do like him.)
ARod's extra range is an excellent cover for the one thing that Jeter doesn't do well (go to his right). Most defensive analists think that defensive skills peak earlier than Hitting skills, so it makes a bit of sense that Jeter wouldn't really improve by great amount latter in his career. But putting another (and better) SS at 3B gives extra lateral movement coming into the hole. It also allows Jeter to position himself a bit more towards 2B.
IIRC, one thing UZR has a hard time with is accounting for player positioning. If Jeter is cheating left and letting ARod handle some of his balls it's actually going to penalize ARod as some of the hits between them will be counted in ARod's zone. This would pull Jeter's number up and push ARod's done (which might partly explain how a SS who was +13 '00-'03 has dropped to barely above average as a 3B).
I'm looking forward to BIS's release of The Feilding Bible, which takes similar PBP data that UZR uses and turns out publicly available feilding stats. I'm sure there will be some revisions to their methodology, but it will be a great boon towards the general fan rating defense.
Oh, and that poor infeild defense is going to kill Wang if he tries to pitch a full season...
"The abuse on Matsuzaka's arm so far is the sort of thing Dusty Baker masturbates to at night. " - OCD SS
I think you need to watch that video again. The foul line is so close to the stands that the next step after he caught the ball his leg was almost against the wall to the stands. Any other short stop would have been in the stands(or would have been hurt more than Jeter was) and he has increased his range to around average in the last 2 years.
That play has nothing to do with his range as a shortstop. His range is refering to how he moves laterally on grounders to his left and right, and his is subpar mostly because he has a pretty bad first step/reaction time to his left.
For all I know, catches on pop flys near the stands might be counted as part of shortstop's range in UZR, but they happen so infrequently that it is not a significant factor and Jeter handles them very well in any case, they are NOT what makes his range bad.
It wasn't an all-time great play, but it was a great play because most shortstops DO NOT get to that ball (for lack of effort, assuming its the 3b man's ball, and inability to judge popflys that are 30 feet over your shoulder, very hard to do). Jeter knew where it was the whole time and had to run full speed to get there, you don't see too many catches like that (they definitely happen, but not too often). He did break his fall in a different way by diving into the stands, but parks are different from another and the wall is very low there.
What made it a great play was that Jeter went all out, with complete disregard for his own safety. It's completely irrelevent that another SS might have made the play easier. Most other players would have backed off and allowed a ball to drop if they were in danger of crashing into the stands with the force that Jeter did.
~John
Very few people remember Pokey Reese's play in that same game, which was actually a better play.
Based on what?
The bigger story was why Reese was in the game in the first place.
~John
Yes, it was.....
Based on Reese catching the ball closer to the stands, but getting there faster so he was able to stand right next to the little wall and catch it by leaning in; he didn't have to catch it on the run and fly into the stands, he was good/fast enough to get to it and remain standing on the feild. Less spectacular, but a better play.
But, in full disclosure, I listened to the game on the radio, and only saw the replays. None of the replays really show the trajectory of the balls in question, they just show the feilders. It's completely possible that the balls have nothing in common other than about where they were caught. The pop up the Jeter ran for may have had a much lower trajectory, rather than a "towering" pop up, nescestating that he run all out, whereas Reese may've had more time.
To my mind this is the real problem with using one's eyes to judge feilding: you'll remember the occasional highlight reel play, but a defensive reputation is built on the regular plays made durring the daily grind of the season (the highlight reel is anecdotal and subject to the whims of conventional wisdom, which I think most of us realize is often wrong). It's not reasonable to try to prop Jeter up as a stellar SS based on one play made 2 years ago.
"The abuse on Matsuzaka's arm so far is the sort of thing Dusty Baker masturbates to at night. " - OCD SS
No he wasn't what? Much better in 04/05? I think you need to pay closer attention. Maybe its because he's bennefiting from A-Rod maybe its not, but he's playing much better D for whatever reason. What are other URZ numbers from that time? I'm sure he's close to the middle in 05/06.
You answered your own question-A-Rod's presence has benefited him greatly.
Totally OT, but welcome back!
Cheetos
EDIT: I hate you guys.
Which should tell you about how significant this stat is as a standalone for defensive ability.
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