Bob Klapisch: Mark McGwire won't get his vote

[Jersey Yankee]

I'm wondering who else amongst the top writers feels this way. Mark refused to reply honestly to questions when asked, and Klapisch won't vote for him until he does.

Your thoughts on this?

Klap: Strictly hall of shame for McGwire

If you enjoyed the steel-cage match between Bruce Sutter and Goose Gossage this week, just wait until 2007 when Mark McGwire, the human pharmacy, stands before the Cooperstown jury.

Actually, Mac and his muscles (most of which have melted away in his post-juicing days) won't have to wait that long to hear this verdict: for starters, he won't be on our 2007 ballot and may never get our vote until he comes clean on steroids.

We're not holding our breath. Given McGwire's sorry performance before Congress last March, where he had the audacity to dodge questions about his tainted records, he'll probably hold onto his lies forever. In that case, McGwire will have to campaign elsewhere for his votes.

[DiMaggio5CF]

Your thoughts on this?

Good.

[Jersey Yankee]

Good.

I figure that Mark will have to talk first. Knowing him, he'll do the Pete Rose thing of not talking, since it'll kill his Cooperstown chances, and if he doesn't talk, he's not getting in anyway.

Won't get in if you do or don't talk. Perhaps he should've played drug-free. Then again, nobody would've known his name as much.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

At some point, McGwire's numbers may overcome the ill will that he created for himself with his congressional testimony, but I don't see it happening soon. Tim Kurkjian, another hall voter, said on Sportscenter (sorry no link) that, although Mac would get his vote, his conversations with other voters led him to believe that Mac had no shot next year.

I hope that, in rejecting some from the steroid era, the voters consider Rice and Dawson more seriously.

[hellonewman]

Sadly, if McGwire had just waggled his finger and lied through his teeth like Rafael Palmeiro, he'd probably be home-free by now. He's not playing anymore, so no tests to flunk.

[jimmyclark]

At some point, McGwire's numbers may overcome the ill will that he created for himself with his congressional testimony, but I don't see it happening soon. Tim Kurkjian, another hall voter, said on Sportscenter (sorry no link) that, although Mac would get his vote, his conversations with other voters led him to believe that Mac had no shot next year.

I hope that, in rejecting some from the steroid era, the voters consider Rice and Dawson more seriously.

Isn't a 312 foot left field wall a PED-performance enhancing device? As for McGwire's chances, who knows. There are a lot of people who whitewash Joe Jackson's outright throwing games in arguing him for Cooperstown, although baseball has never put him in. A coke head like Keith Hernandez is now a highly-respected Mets broadcaster. The most sacred New York baseball moment was Bobby Thomson "sign-stolen" home run. McGwire and others were doing this when the most popular film star/head of the Presidents Council on Physical Fitness and current California governor was a steroid user named Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[DiMaggio5CF]

I figure that Mark will have to talk first. Knowing him, he'll do the Pete Rose thing of not talking, since it'll kill his Cooperstown chances, and if he doesn't talk, he's not getting in anyway.

Won't get in if you do or don't talk. Perhaps he should've played drug-free. Then again, nobody would've known his name as much.

Shouldn't it be a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation?

The way I see it is if you use steroids and you admit to it, you can't get in; and if you use steroids and you lie about it, you can't get in.

If you use steroids at all, I think you should be kept out. It's just a matter of whether you go down as a guy who took accountability or a liar.

The only way you should get in is if you don't do steroids at all.

Telling the truth shouldn't earn back credit for doing something bad. Telling the truth should just prevent you from going down as a bigger scumbag than you already are.

You're not supposed to use steroids. If you go clean, you earn 0 points. If you use, you lose points.

You're not supposed to lie. If you tell the truth, you earn 0 points. If you lie, you lose points.

People should not get points for doing what they're supposed to.

[JDPNYY]

I think Klapisch should have spent more time writing columns before this years voting expressing how Goose Gossage deserved to be voted in, than writing columns now that he won't be voting for McGwire next year.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Isn't a 312 foot left field wall a PED-performance enhancing device? As for McGwire's chances, who knows. There are a lot of people who whitewash Joe Jackson's outright throwing games in arguing him for Cooperstown, although baseball has never put him in. A coke head like Keith Hernandez is now a highly-respected Mets broadcaster. The most sacred New York baseball moment was Bobby Thomson "sign-stolen" home run. McGwire and others were doing this when the most popular film star/head of the Presidents Council on Physical Fitness and current California governor was a steroid user named Arnold Schwarzenegger.

As I've said here many times before, I'm probably the least bothered person on this board by steroids. As I said above, over time, I think that the strength of Mac's numbers will out weigh the questions about PEDs, just as time has healed the other wounds that you mentioned.

I'd vote for McGwire next year, but I don't believe that he'll make it for quite a while.

Another interesting question; if (and it is a big "if") Bonds surpasses Aaron (I'm hoping he doesn't), will Bonds' association with PEDs keep him out of the hall? That would mean that the all time and single season HR leader as well as the all time hit leader would be out.

I'm not campaigning for Rose (and I do not want to reopen that debate). I think that gambling is far worse for the game than PEDs (not even close). I'm just bringing up that a hall without the holders of those records would be somwhat incomplete.

[LuckyLopez]

Without there actually being any evidence against McGwire I find it hard to believe that he won't get in. If there was actual evidence instead of just a strong opinion it might be a different case, but then again I have no doubt that Bonds will get in and probably on the 1st ballot.

I think McGwire will fall to 2008. With Ripkin and Gwynn as locks for next year the ceremony and everything leading to it will be a VERY positive thing for baseball. You don't want to disrupt that with steroid talk. And then when McGwire gets elected in '08 (in what looks to be a weak pool) you can deal with all of those headaches and his admittance can carry a little invisible asterik about why it took him 2 years with his numbers. But short of something new presenting itself in the next 2 years I can't imagine that he won't get in. Bonds is getting in, so I find it hard to believe that the bar is going to be set at "guys we really, really, REALLY think took steroids" like McGwire and Sosa.

[Stupid Flanders]

Voters hold the numbers of players in the 80's in low regard by comparison to those of the 90's, and hold those in the 90's in low regard because of possible steroid use.

Honestly you can't do anything about the past and he's hit well over 500 HR.

He deserves to go in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he deserves to be in there.

[Johnny O]

As I've said here many times before, I'm probably the least bothered person on this board by steroids. As I said above, over time, I think that the strength of Mac's numbers will out weigh the questions about PEDs, just as time has healed the other wounds that you mentioned.

I'd vote for McGwire next year, but I don't believe that he'll make it for quite a while.

Another interesting question; if (and it is a big "if") Bonds surpasses Aaron (I'm hoping he doesn't), will Bonds' association with PEDs keep him out of the hall? That would mean that the all time and single season HR leader as well as the all time hit leader would be out.

I'm not campaigning for Rose (and I do not want to reopen that debate). I think that gambling is far worse for the game than PEDs (not even close). I'm just bringing up that a hall without the holders of those records would be somwhat incomplete.

I agree with everything you said here. Gambling nearly destroyed baseball, PEDs have been used by baseball players since the game began and are impossible to objectively factor out, there is no comparison.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

He deserves to go in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he deserves to be in there.

Although I was never a big McGwire fan, common sense would dictate (and I hope) that you are correct.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

He cheated BIG TIME. Plain and simple. When he was given the opportunity to refute under oath such charges he punted. Fine, but then the HoF should punt on him.

It's not malice. Mark got to live the life most can only dream of. He's accomplished a lot, has heard adulation and made money we never will. GOOD FOR HIM. By any possible measure, he's been already well compensated for his achievements in baseball. There is no wronging of McGwire by not putting him in the HoF.

[YankeePride1967]

I wonder if Mr. Klapsisch voted for Gaylord Perry or Don Sutton who actually committed acts that were against the rules of baseball?

[Jace]

Voters like Bob Klapisch who express strong opinions about steroid type stuff and "coming clean" and base their votes on it are usually being hypocritical in many ways. The steroid insanity is definitely overblown and its absolutist moral historians like Klapisch in this case are keeping it going.

I think this "tell the truth" stuff is the biggest insanity. He won't vote him in unless he tells the truth? The thing is, Klapisch has already convicted him! If he says he didn't do steroids he is automatically lying (i am making no judgement on that matter, just on the matter of what Bob's judgement is)! Its like the Salem witch trials. By McGwire admitting his guilt, whether true or not, we all get to feel better about ourselves cause WE sure arent witches so we give him a pat on the head and let him off easy. Giving people incentive to lie is so crazy.

Whatever though, its his vote. If he doesn't want McGwire in the Hall of Fame it doesn't matter why because he isn't accountable for his decision.

This is such silliness. I hope they come out with a cleat that makes people 2x faster and then call it performance enhancing footwear after 20 years of overlooking it and try to make people "tell the truth" about whether they used it or not (as long as the truth is that they are guilty) after stolen base numbers and web gems quadruple. Wait are these guys actually Hall of Fame worthy or is it just their shoes? Jim Rice definitely would have had 30000 stolen bases if HE had them, thank god for him and his untainted numbers.

[LuckyLopez]

He cheated BIG TIME. Plain and simple.

But the clear flaw in your arguement is that he did NOT "plain and simple" cheat. I'm not arguing whether he cheated or not. You're free to believe he did. If you make me go one way or another I say he probably cheated. But we don't KNOW he cheated. Its just become - as the last poster put it with the Salem reference - a witch hunt at this point. And guys who look like they might have/probably cheated like McGwire and Sosa are just considered guilty without any evidence. And then we look at ANY player who has an abnormally large upper body (Abreu, Tejada, etc) or who saw a recent drop in power (Lowell, Pudge, etc) and we think they're probably guilty. Self righteous fans and media talk enough and suddenly everthing gets shifted so that everyone's one degree guiltier than we know they are. Guys we have no valid reason to believe did steroids probably did. Guys we have good reason to believe did steroids definatelly did. Guys we know definatelly did steroids are the worst bastards in this sport. Its completely screwed up.

And it gets to the point where people say and think things exactly like you just did. "He cheated, plain and simple." By what standard can you say that? We've collective lowered the standards.

But you know who DID cheat plain and simple? Bonds. And Sheffield. And Palmeiro. And Bonds is in. And Sheff is going to have a chance. And Palmeiro has the numbers but more than likely not the support. So how do you look at a player like McGwire or Sosa who you figure "probably" cheated and say "no, you can't get in because I KNOW you cheated even without evidence or a confession"? How can you do that when you know there are people coming down the line who you DO actually KNOW cheated and who are still going to get consideration?

[Sheff_Rod]

Similar story on the Post the other day.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/01122006/sports/61481.htm

Which brings us to the big name on the next ballot - Mark McGwire. Until Big Mac comes clean and lets the world know exactly how did he get so big, and stay so big, he's not a Hall of Famer in my book. Sure, McGwire broke Roger Maris' single-season home run mark, but that does not make him a first ballot Hall of Famer. He hit 583 home runs, but Eddie Mathews, who hit 512 home runs in a much more difficult home run era, had to wait five years to get elected to the Hall.

[ChewieTobbacca]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

I think McGwire will get in eventually, but will not on the first ballot

Next year's class is going to be Gwynn and Ripken, two great baseball guys and if McGwire isn't in, oh well...

[BobbyMurcerFan]

But the clear flaw in your arguement is that he did NOT "plain and simple" cheat. I'm not arguing whether he cheated or not. You're free to believe he did. If you make me go one way or another I say he probably cheated. But we don't KNOW he cheated. Its just become - as the last poster put it with the Salem reference - a witch hunt at this point. And guys who look like they might have/probably cheated like McGwire and Sosa are just considered guilty without any evidence. And then we look at ANY player who has an abnormally large upper body (Abreu, Tejada, etc) or who saw a recent drop in power (Lowell, Pudge, etc) and we think they're probably guilty. Self righteous fans and media talk enough and suddenly everthing gets shifted so that everyone's one degree guiltier than we know they are. Guys we have no valid reason to believe did steroids probably did. Guys we have good reason to believe did steroids definatelly did. Guys we know definatelly did steroids are the worst bastards in this sport. Its completely screwed up.

And it gets to the point where people say and think things exactly like you just did. "He cheated, plain and simple." By what standard can you say that? We've collective lowered the standards.

But you know who DID cheat plain and simple? Bonds. And Sheffield. And Palmeiro. And Bonds is in. And Sheff is going to have a chance. And Palmeiro has the numbers but more than likely not the support. So how do you look at a player like McGwire or Sosa who you figure "probably" cheated and say "no, you can't get in because I KNOW you cheated even without evidence or a confession"? How can you do that when you know there are people coming down the line who you DO actually KNOW cheated and who are still going to get consideration?

How can you ignore his non-testimony in front of Congress? I give him credit for not lying under oath, unlike Palmiero, but I see no rational way of interpreting his refusal to answer the steriod question other than that he did indeed use roids and didn't want to admit it now.

Add to that that Canseco's allegations that he introduced Mark to roids and witnessed him using them on numerous occasions. While I'm no fan of Canseco or his integrity, he has said he's willing to take a lie detector test, while McGwire has remained silent. If Canseco were lying, where's the lawsuit? Where's the all out campaign to correct a character smear that could cost him a rightful place in the HoF? If McGwire had a leg to stand on he'd be fighting his tail off to clear his name. But he's not. Yet some fans are still fighting for him. They're delusional.

Yes Mark McGwire used steriods. There really is no rational way to doubt this.

[YankeePride1967]

If Bob Klapisch voted for either Gaylord Perry or Don Sutton (who was caught cheating on Channel 11 against the Yankees) and now won't vote for McGwire, he IS a hypocrite. Perry and Sutton did acts that were against the rules of the game at the time. While it doesn't take much to think McGwire used roids based on last year's hearings, there is no proof of which and even if he did, steroids were not against the polilcies of baseball at the time.

[Babe Rules]

Good decision.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

If Bob Klapisch voted for either Gaylord Perry or Don Sutton (who was caught cheating on Channel 11 against the Yankees) and now won't vote for McGwire, he IS a hypocrite. Perry and Sutton did acts that were against the rules of the game at the time. While it doesn't take much to think McGwire used roids based on last year's hearings, there is no proof of which and even if he did, steroids were not against the polilcies of baseball at the time.

Or maybe Klapisch is making a distinction between using spit or sandpaper on a ball and taking steroids. Maybe he believes not all acts against the game are the same. That seems like a pretty reasonable position to take, IMHO. To compete with Perry and Sutton you need a nail file or some saliva. To compete with McGwire you need to commit a crime (in some states possibly a felony) and jeopardize your health.

As for "steroids were not against the polilcies of baseball at the time," this is just not true. Steroids have been against the rules since the MLB first included clauses against drug usage, that was well before the 1990's. While the league did not test for steroids, using them were against the rules at the time. Additionally, taking steroids w/o a perscription has been illegal in the United States while McGwire was taking them.

[RhodyYanksFan]

I don't think McGwire should be a 1st ballot HOFer. That privlidge should be reserved for the elite, best of the best. Yes, the HOF is for the best of the best, but there's a difference between Hall of Famer Tom Seaver and Hall of Famer Bruce Sutter. The same should be true for McGwire.

[YankeePride1967]

Or maybe Klapisch is making a distinction between using spit or sandpaper on a ball and taking steroids. Maybe he believes not all acts against the game are the same. That seems like a pretty reasonable position to take, IMHO. To compete with Perry and Sutton you need a nail file or some saliva. To compete with McGwire you need to commit a crime (in some states possibly a felony) and jeopardize your health.

As for "steroids were not against the polilcies of baseball at the time," this is just not true. Steroids have been against the rules since the MLB first included clauses against drug usage, that was well before the 1990's. While the league did not test for steroids, using them were against the rules at the time. Additionally, taking steroids w/o a perscription has been illegal in the United States while McGwire was taking them.

If jeopardizing your health was a reason to not vote for a player, Babe Ruth would still be trying to get in. If you believe (as I do) McGwire cheated, then that's no different than Perry/Sutton. The health aspect has nothing to do with it. It's the cheating aspect.

[Sixty one]

In my opinion, major league baseball has a major problem on its hands with steriods and the hall of fame. I think McGwire and Bonds and many other users may have a hard time being accepted by other hall of famers who will view them as outsiders because of steriods. It may take several years to resolve this problem.

[YankeePride1967]

If committing a crime excludes one from entering the Hall, we can go in and clear out some plaques in Cooperstown now.

[NYYBombshell]

If committing a crime excludes one from entering the Hall, we can go in and clear out some plaques in Cooperstown now.

Thank you.

There are many, many players in Cooperstown that cheated and broke rules that WERE AGAINST THE RULES AT THE TIME THEY WERE BROKEN. At the time McGwire used that Andro stuff, it was not against the rules. That's essentially making an ex post facto law that says that what you did wasn't illegal when you did it, but it is now and you will be punished for having done it in the past. You can't do that. I'm not saying what he did was right, rather it was reprehensible, but if you don't let him in, take Gaylord Perry out, take Don Sutton out and don't even think of letting Bonds in.

You can't have your cake and eat it too because otherwise, like GoRocket said, there will be some empty wall space in the Hall.

[Dannman103]

Isn't a 312 foot left field wall a PED-performance enhancing device? As for McGwire's chances, who knows. There are a lot of people who whitewash Joe Jackson's outright throwing games in arguing him for Cooperstown, although baseball has never put him in. A coke head like Keith Hernandez is now a highly-respected Mets broadcaster. The most sacred New York baseball moment was Bobby Thomson "sign-stolen" home run. McGwire and others were doing this when the most popular film star/head of the Presidents Council on Physical Fitness and current California governor was a steroid user named Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Lets see...

A 312 foot fence may be considered a "performance-enhancing device," but it affects everyone, rather than just the one player (in this case McGwire)...so i dont see how you can compare the two.

As for Shoeless Joe, he's not in the Hall, and there doesnt appear to be much hope that he will be.

Keith Hernandez's alleged drug use, while wrong, still can't be seen as performance enhancing...and what does being a broadcaster have to do with the hall of fame.

As for the alleged stolen sign, if it is true (which it probably is), stealing a sign is still common in the game, and not considered cheating. But that's just one home run. How many homers of McGwire's were tainted by his likely cheating?

And Arnold Schwarzenagger isnt a baseball player, so I dont see what him doing steroids in California has anything to do with a guy playing baseball in St. Louis.

My point is, its pretty clear that McGwire cheated. While I'm not going to say i didnt enjoy the '98 home run chase, looking back now I see that we were all duped. I dont see how McGwire will ever get 75% of the vote, judging from the division i've seen in opinions just among people i know. I doubt he'll get in, and I wont shed a tear for him if he doesnt make it

[keithf1]

I don't think anyone that has taken steroids should be admitted or even voted for. They cheated.

[nnysiny]

i would never vote Big Mac in if i had a vote. cheaters arent supposed to be rewarded, they are supposed to be punished. in fact, this would be good for baseball. if a guy who hit 583 dingers couldnt get in because of roids, current and future players will definitely think twice before juicing, or even using amphetamines

[obsessedyankeefan]

I don't think anyone that has taken steroids should be admitted or even voted for. They cheated.

Couldn't agree more.

[pedromartinezfan]

Cheating has existed as long as baseball as existed. No amount of drugs will allow a player to have a 163 OPS+, 583 HR, or an all-time top 10 .334 EqA. There were no rules against it when McGwire played. Nobody is breaking the law by drinking alcohol today unless you are under 21.

[yankeebot]

I would like to see the voting members of the BBWAA held to the same standards of character as the ballplayers.And until the members' voting results are made public, the HOF voting will remain a farce.

[Jace]

Lets see...

A 312 foot fence may be considered a "performance-enhancing device," but it affects everyone, rather than just the one player (in this case McGwire)...so i dont see how you can compare the two.

As for Shoeless Joe, he's not in the Hall, and there doesnt appear to be much hope that he will be.

Keith Hernandez's alleged drug use, while wrong, still can't be seen as performance enhancing...and what does being a broadcaster have to do with the hall of fame.

As for the alleged stolen sign, if it is true (which it probably is), stealing a sign is still common in the game, and not considered cheating. But that's just one home run. How many homers of McGwire's were tainted by his likely cheating?

And Arnold Schwarzenagger isnt a baseball player, so I dont see what him doing steroids in California has anything to do with a guy playing baseball in St. Louis.

My point is, its pretty clear that McGwire cheated. While I'm not going to say i didnt enjoy the '98 home run chase, looking back now I see that we were all duped. I dont see how McGwire will ever get 75% of the vote, judging from the division i've seen in opinions just among people i know. I doubt he'll get in, and I wont shed a tear for him if he doesnt make it

A 312 foot fence on one side of the field only makes HOF worthy numbers out of players that are already very good who tend to pull the ball to that side of the field who played in the era when it existed. Basically it IS exclusive to some players and it enhances their performance.

Unless Klapisch votes for Shoeless Joe, I don't think this point matters for either side. If he did then he would be a gigantic hypocrite.

His point about Keith Hernandez was that cocaine use is immoral and a HORRIBLE example for kids. The reason that a lot of people (including Klapisch, as he demonstrates from this article) won't vote for McGwire is not that they think his numbers would be unworthy if he didn't use steroids but because using steroids was "cheating" and thus immoral and not "coming clean" is immoral. This has become an inquisition. We have to protect the kids, McGwire is trying to corrupt them with steroids, the most evil substances on the planet! I think that Klapisch's logic is absolutely ridiculous if he voted for Keith Hernandez.

I agree with you that sign stealing is not cheating, but there is another point in there. Lets say for 5 years sometime in baseball history every team got really into sign-stealing, hired people to do it for a living, got amazingly good at it. HR numbers double, the players that take advantage of the sign stealing always knows what pitch is coming. Players like Tony Womack hit 25-30 HR. So the players of that era that were good at using the sign stealing are now hall of fame caliber. How is that not a performance enhancing technique? Basically acting like steroids taint numbers, when they weren't even cheating, is ridiculous because EVERYTHING taints numbers. Asterisks for everyone!
Babe Ruth just grooved his swing to use a 310 foot wall.
Hank Aaron took advantage of horrible expansion era pitching.
Gehrig played in a hitter's dream live-ball era.
Anyone who played in the last 20 years trained a lot harder than Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb.

Arnold is the governor of California, making him a politician. Politicians like the Congress of the United States of America, involved in countless incredibly horrible and corrupt scandals (a little worse than taking a drug to hit more HR, such as fraud, embezzlement, gerrymandering, etc), are taking a stand on evil steroids which kill hundreds of children a day and waggling their holy fingers at the bad baseball players. How are you missing the hypocrisy? How does his point that Arnold was a MASSIVE steroid user himself, including a repeat sexual offender, and we give him our trust to SPEND OUR MONEY AND LEAD US while we sit here and castigate baseball players doing the same thing or less not make sense to you?

It doesn't matter if McGwire used steroids or not at this point (which weren't cheating any more than sign-stealing. I know they were illegal and somewhat unsafe for him, that is the only reason that he should not have done them. Say steroids were safe, give scientists time, this will happen, and legal, and allowed in baseball, then who gives a crap? How is it any different from better wooden bats and better eyesight from precise perscriptions that come with technological advances?). A "confession" that he will write just to make people like Klapisch happy whether it is true or not is worthless.

[Kiwiwriter]

If McGwire gets in...and I suspect he will...there'll be a larger hue and cry to admit Pete Rose.

I don't know what to think about McGwire, but I'm not happy with how these steroid-juiced players ratcheted up the home runs artificially. It's not right. Nor is it right that owners just looked the other way, happy with higher attendance.

Like it or not, sports heroes are role models and are held up as exemplars. We should really root for guys and girls who get high grades in school and become scientists and engineers, but instead we applaud jocks. And in truth, we learn a lot from sports...teamwork, discipline, conditioning, and sportsmanship. Since that's the standard, we should set the bar.

And steroids are just dangerous and wrong. My brother had to take steroids as a kid, not to get pumped up, but to defeat Crohn's Disease. The steroids didn't. They just cost him weight and gave him stomach agony. These drugs are not jokes, they're not magic elixirs. They should not be treated as such.

As for McGwire for the Hall...I don't have a vote, but if I did, I would leave him off the first ballot at least, and probably the second. At the very least, I would send him a message that he was paying for his misdeeds.

[Jace]

If McGwire gets in...and I suspect he will...there'll be a larger hue and cry to admit Pete Rose.

I disagree. I think people are smart enough to know gambling and being a total jerk-off like Rose is a completely different matter than steroids.

I don't know what to think about McGwire, but I'm not happy with how these steroid-juiced players ratcheted up the home runs artificially. It's not right. Nor is it right that owners just looked the other way, happy with higher attendance.

What does artificial mean? Are protein supplements also artificial? What about Andro? Everyone thought that was ok until baseball banned it. Baseball didn't even ban steroids until a couple years ago. Is laser eye surgery that makes me a much better hitter artificial? Babe Ruth couldnt get laser eye surgery, they need a laser eye surgery asterisk.

Like it or not, sports heroes are role models and are held up as exemplars. We should really root for guys and girls who get high grades in school and become scientists and engineers, but instead we applaud jocks. And in truth, we learn a lot from sports...teamwork, discipline, conditioning, and sportsmanship. Since that's the standard, we should set the bar.

Athletes shouldn't do steroids because they are illegal and can hurt you if misused. It does set a poor example for kids. But seriously, they are the least of our worries for poor examples for kids. Singling them out is beyond ridiculous considering what else goes on. Celebrities, who are also role models, get caught doing cocaine and crack all the time. That stuff actually addicts and kills you, even smoking does much much more harm than steroids. Maybe we should drug test celebrities at random intervals so they don't hurt the kids. Corporate leaders and politicians, also role models to EVERYONE, not just kids, steal money and worse left and right.

And steroids are just dangerous and wrong. My brother had to take steroids as a kid, not to get pumped up, but to defeat Crohn's Disease. The steroids didn't. They just cost him weight and gave him stomach agony. These drugs are not jokes, they're not magic elixirs. They should not be treated as such.

I am very sorry about your brother, but saying steroids are inherently dangerous and wrong is just not true. Sometimes things fail, and anything can be used incorrectly. Science will make steroids safer and safer, I guarantee it. When they become as safe as any supplement how are they any different than them?

[YankeePride1967]

I don't think anyone that has taken steroids should be admitted or even voted for. They cheated.

Then I assume you would be in support of an effort to have Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton removed from the Hall.

[silverdsl]

I am strongly against the use of performance enhancers and I don't think McGwire's testimony in front of Congress made him look like an innocent man in this area. However, there is absolutely zero proof that McGwire took steroids as an active player. He hasn't admitted to it, there's no leaked grand jury testimony, no positive tests, etc... So I have a problem with Klapisch saying he's not going to vote for McGwire because he used steroids when Klapisch doesn't actually know this as fact. Is it likely that McGwire used steroids? Yes. But I agree that it seems like the Salem Witch Hunts without concrete proof.

-Deborah

[YankeePride1967]

I am strongly against the use of performance enhancers and I don't think McGwire's testimony in front of Congress made him look like an innocent man in this area. However, there is absolutely zero proof that McGwire took steroids as an active player. He hasn't admitted to it, there's no leaked grand jury testimony, no positive tests, etc... So I have a problem with Klapisch saying he's not going to vote for McGwire because he used steroids when Klapisch doesn't actually know this as fact. Is it likely that McGwire used steroids? Yes. But I agree that it seems like the Salem Witch Hunts without concrete proof.

-Deborah

Very good points.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

McGwire will get in and should. But I dont think he deserves to be inducted with 2 truley stand up individuals like Tony Gwynn and Cal Jr.

[YankeePride1967]

McGwire will get in and should. But I dont think he deserves to be inducted with 2 truley stand up individuals like Tony Gwynn and Cal Jr.

While I don't personally give much weight to a "first-ballot HOFer" I have no problem in treating McGwire like they did Ferguson Jenkins or Gaylord Perry. Make him wait a few years, but he should get in.

[DiMaggio5CF]

If committing a crime excludes one from entering the Hall, we can go in and clear out some plaques in Cooperstown now.

So your stance is basically that two wrongs make a right?

We let those guys in, so McGwire should get in regardless?

[pedromartinezfan]

So your stance is basically that two wrongs make a right?

We let those guys in, so McGwire should get in regardless?

Because they were good enough players to merit induction. McGwire is in the same boat. He was a great hitter with or without.

[hobokenfish]

I read somewhere (possibly Sports Illustrated) that McGwire wanted to come clean during the Congressional hearings, but didn't do so because he did not want to admit to committing a crime and he could not be given immunity for his testimony. I also read that when the statute of limitations expires, he might come clean and admit to everything he did.

I would not vote in McGwire on the first attempt. Maybe down the road, but Ripken and Gwynn should go in together without McGwire. As for Don Sutton, I never believed he belonged in the Hall anyway. Never a truly dominating pitcher, he just pitched for a long time (something like 23 years) and compiled lots of numbers. Career ERA of 3.26 (not great for his era) and ERA+ of 108. Yeah, 324 wins, but also 256 losses.

[jonnyc39]

I read somewhere (possibly Sports Illustrated) that McGwire wanted to come clean during the Congressional hearings, but didn't do so because he did not want to admit to committing a crime and he could not be given immunity for his testimony. I also read that when the statute of limitations expires, he might come clean and admit to everything he did.

The statute of limitations for him being prosecuted for doing steroids? I'd be very surprised if McGwire was really waiting for this. The gov won't want to lock him up - that's not what they do with drug users. They'll want to use him to get as much information on the subject as they can, so they can go after the big guys.

[hobokenfish]

The statute of limitations for him being prosecuted for doing steroids? I'd be very surprised if McGwire was really waiting for this. The gov won't want to lock him up - that's not what they do with drug users. They'll want to use him to get as much information on the subject as they can, so they can go after the big guys.

But that's the point. Why would he want to subject himself to having to make a plea deal? Who knows what the government would do, but why place yourself in the position of essentially admitting to a crime -- especially with the BALCO hearings ongoing. McGwire basically invoked his 5th Amendment rights without explicitly saying it during the hearings, and he looked bad in the process.

[CTSoxFan]

There are many, many players in Cooperstown that cheated and broke rules that WERE AGAINST THE RULES AT THE TIME THEY WERE BROKEN. At the time McGwire used that Andro stuff, it was not against the rules. That's essentially making an ex post facto law that says that what you did wasn't illegal when you did it, but it is now and you will be punished for having done it in the past. You can't do that. I'm not saying what he did was right, rather it was reprehensible, but if you don't let him in, take Gaylord Perry out, take Don Sutton out and don't even think of letting Bonds in.

I don't disagree with this, but it might misstate the issue. I think what a lot of people are saying is that McGwire shouldn't be "punished" for doing something "wrong," but rather the fact that he took andro (and/or whatever else he took) mitigates the glory of his achievements substantially. I'm not saying McGwire shouldn't go in because he's violated any rules or even values; I'm saying he shouldn't go in because 583 PED-enhanced home runs over 16 seasons are less impressive to me than, say, 438 unenhanced home runs over 21 seasons (Dawson), or 382 unenhanced home runs over 16 seasons (Rice).

[CTSoxFan]

Isn't a 312 foot left field wall a PED-performance enhancing device.

I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question, but: no, it isn't.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

If McGwire gets in...and I suspect he will...there'll be a larger hue and cry to admit Pete Rose.

.

I have confidence that most fans can distinguish the relative threat posed by player/manager gambling from that posed by PEDs.