Centerfield Vs Bullpen

[Blaze]

It seems that so many of the talks by both fans and sportswriters this off season has been overly focused on the Yanks filling the CF position. I, just like everyone else would LOVE to see the Yank's pickup a decent to premier CF...However at the end of the day all we really need is a decent glove. It was the bullpen all last year that persisted in being the serious problem with the Yankees. Can anyone else remember last year how many games there were when the Yanks would be leading by 5 to 6 runs only to see them win the game by 1 run? Or how about all the games where the Yanks held an early lead only to have the bullpen relinquish it? How hard was it to get a reliever to come in during the ALDS that could retire the Angels 1-2-3? I think that somewhere along the lines both us(the fans), and the media truly lost track of this. Fix our bullpen and we're a better team even WITH Williams being were still the starting CF.

[South Facing Epitaph]

Agreed

[Vazquez]

Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.

[DandyAndy46]

Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.

Actually his post is contradictory, not paradoxical.
The signature aside, I tend to agree with the post. Getting a "bat" for a CFer is not the priority...it is getting a glove out there and someone with a functioning arm...

[Wang's Groundballs]

Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact. Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now.

[NewEraYanks2527]

Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.

Yes I would have to agree there. Pierre was never a good fit and he will continue to decline. Why would you be so high on Pierre? But I do agree with you that fixing the bullpen and having more quality in the pen rather than quantity(like last year) the Yankees will be a better team even with Williams or Crosby in center. Of course a good CFer like a Jeremy Reed or possibly a Jason Michaels will help make the bullpen better because of improved defense in Center. Also improved defense in right, say Michaels in right and Reed in center would also make the bullpen MUCH better because those are two very good defenders who will run down more balls than any combination of Crosby/Bernie/Sheffield.

[Blaze]

Your post is paradoxical. You say get a decent glove but your signature advocates getting a centerfielder that shows no signs of "decent" or "glove" for that matter.

I was stating that 'we' all(that includes myself) have lost track of the more serious issue.

[DandyAndy46]

Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact. Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now.

Why is imporiving the offense a necessity...last time a I checked the Yankees have A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Matsui, Sheffield, and Posada....sounds like a pretty good 1-7 to me, so why does this team NEED an offensive CFer??

[Blaze]

Yes I would have to agree there. Pierre was never a good fit and he will continue to decline. Why would you be so high on Pierre? But I do agree with you that fixing the bullpen and having more quality in the pen rather than quantity(like last year) the Yankees will be a better team even with Williams or Crosby in center. Of course a good CFer like a Jeremy Reed or possibly a Jason Michaels will help make the bullpen better because of improved defense in Center. Also improved defense in right, say Michaels in right and Reed in center would also make the bullpen MUCH better because those are two very good defenders who will run down more balls than any combination of Crosby/Bernie/Sheffield.

If the keep walking guys and giving up homers it's not gonna matter if Andruw Jones is our centerfielder. Better defense would not have dramatically improved the results Embree, Felix Rodgriquez, or Proctor, etc..

[Wang's Groundballs]

Why is imporiving the offense a necessity...last time a I checked the Yankees have A-Rod, Jeter, Cano, Giambi, Matsui, Sheffield, and Posada....sounds like a pretty good 1-7 to me, so why does this team NEED an offensive CFer??

Last I checked the goal is to score more runs than your opponents. Whether you do that by preventing them from scoring runs or by producing more runs yourself doesn't matter as long as you do it. And I never said it was necessary, just that we need more output from CF; this could be from a CF that saves 20 runs with the glove and gives up 10 with the bat, I don't care as long as they help us win games.

[DandyAndy46]

Last I checked the goal is to score more runs than your opponents. Whether you do that by preventing them from scoring runs or by producing more runs yourself doesn't matter as long as you do it. And I never said it was necessary, just that we need more output from CF; this could be from a CF that saves 20 runs with the glove and gives up 10 with the bat, I don't care as long as they help us win games.

But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..

[HouseThatRingsBuild]

If they had better middle relief the last two years they would have been in a better position.

[DandyAndy46]

If they had better middle relief the last two years they would have been in a better position.

Let's be fair...in 2004 it wasn't that they didn't have good relief, they just didn't have enough of it and Joe had to use Q, Sturtze, Gordon, and Mo every friggin day and by the time they got to the playoffs they were spent...

[Blaze]

Let's be fair...in 2004 it wasn't that they didn't have good relief, they just didn't have enough of it and Joe had to use Q, Sturtze, Gordon, and Mo every friggin day and by the time they got to the playoffs they were spent...

Same difference. Not good enough not deep enough, same thing. Point is we need a better pullben, that constitutes both talent and depth.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I think it is very hard to compare the two.

CF requires and everyday guy, where his overall ability will end up shining through.

Bullpen help, especially middle relief is very fickle and changes from year to year. You sometimes really just have to throw guys against the wall and see who sticks.
\
Hopefully you wouldn't do that with CF

Overall, I think both are fine. Maybe sign another guy and let some of the guys in the minor leagues fill up the rest of the spots.

Sign nomar, and his offense in accordance with the rest of lineup can carry Bubba's bat (eventhough I don't think it will be as bad as people think)

For this season, I think the pen will play a much bigger role in our success.

[Wang's Groundballs]

But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..

I never said we need one. I said, "Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now."

All I care about is getting the player that adds the most wins to our team. If he does that by adding more offense, defense, or both I don't really care, just as long as he does it.

[DandyAndy46]

I never said we need one. I said, "Improving our output in CF, hopefully on defense and offense, is our greatest need right now."

All I care about is getting the player that adds the most wins to our team. If he does that by adding more offense, defense, or both I don't really care, just as long as he does it.

On that my friend, I wholeheartedly agree...

[Mattpat11]

But you also said the Yank need a CFer with improved offensive and defensive capacity...
I would agree with you to the extent that defense does save runs, however I don't think that the Yanks need an offensive CFer. If they can get a good defensive CFer the offense should put up more than enough runs..

I dont think the offense can hold a no hit centerfielder.

[LongLiveBernie51!]

[QUOTE=Wang's Groundballs]Compared to an everyday player, relievers, especially middle relievers, don't have much of an impact.QUOTE]

Don't have much of an impact?

I agree that everyday players naturally have more of an impact on a game as the nature of thier playing time would dictact that, however, relief pitching can cost a team a significant amount of games especially in the playoffs when competition is tighter and many games come down to one at bat, one pitch, one defensive play. It puts a strain on starting pitching to have to constantly worry about having great outings and going longer innings which then tires out our staff and leads to tired arms late season.

With the amount of slugging power we have on this team I would rather get superior middle relief over a superior CF, if I couldn't have both. If we can get both, great.

[DandyAndy46]

I dont think the offense can hold a no hit centerfielder.

Please tell me you're joking..

[HouseThatRingsBuild]

Let's be fair...in 2004 it wasn't that they didn't have good relief, they just didn't have enough of it and Joe had to use Q, Sturtze, Gordon, and Mo every friggin day and by the time they got to the playoffs they were spent...

ok, I mean depth as well

[Mattpat11]

Please tell me you're joking..

I'd be lying if I did.

We currently have no DH and Posada is declining.


Posada
Phillips/Whomever
Crosby/Whomever

would be death at 7/8/9.

[HouseThatRingsBuild]

I'd be lying if I did.

We currently have no DH and Posada is declining.


Posada
Phillips/Whomever
Crosby/Whomever

would be death at 7/8/9.

Thats better than every team except Boston

[DandyAndy46]

I'd be lying if I did.

We currently have no DH and Posada is declining.


Posada
Phillips/Whomever
Crosby/Whomever

would be death at 7/8/9.

Are you completely ignoring what the yankees have at 1-6?????
DH will probably rotate to keep players fresh
Any team besides the Red Sox would kill to have the Yankees 1-7, and big deal if the 8,9 hitters aren't Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig...it's not a real problem in my mind..

[Mattpat11]

DH will probably rotate to keep players fresh

And when, say, Gary Sheffield is the DH, who's the right fielder?

[Saxmania]

I'd be lying if I did.

We currently have no DH and Posada is declining.


Posada
Phillips/Whomever
Crosby/Whomever

would be death at 7/8/9.

Agreed. Gary Sheffield is also in decline (check his OPS+ stats the last 3 years), and I'm not gambling everything on Giambi being 100% all year; his recent history is simply too spotty. Throw in the fact that Matsui was less effective in 2005 than 2004, and there are no guarantees.

Plus, rallies score runs. Poor offensive players kill rallies. Having excellent offensive players 1-7 is very useful, but if hitters 8 and 9 kill every rally, then you're not going to score as much as a balanced lineup. See 1998 Yankees for details - every hitter had an OBP of .350 or more. That's how you keep rallies going.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[ZYanksRule]

I agree. The pen is the number one thing we still need to work on. While Crosby isn't the answer in CF, he can hold down the fort until we get someone else. The pen, OTOH, is something we need to work on now if we want to win a championship next year.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Are you completely ignoring what the yankees have at 1-6?????
DH will probably rotate to keep players fresh
Any team besides the Red Sox would kill to have the Yankees 1-7, and big deal if the 8,9 hitters aren't Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig...it's not a real problem in my mind..

that many black holes lead to inconsistant offences and a lot of rally killers. We dont need Ruth in 7-9 but we need mlb hitters in every spot. Id rather have a line up full of solid-good hitters 1-9 than a lineup that has superstars 1-5 and crap in the rest of the lineup.

[DandyAndy46]

And when, say, Gary Sheffield is the DH, who's the right fielder?

Most likely Crosby as Bernie will surely play the field once a week...
My point being the Yankees should get their DH from in-house rather then going out and getting a guy to be the full-time DH...I'm sure Bernie is going to DH at times as well...I'm sure you're going to see Posada DH from time to time as well to keep him fresh throughout the season...

[Mattpat11]

Most likely Crosby as Bernie will surely play the field once a week...

And we're right back to a seven, eight, nine that doesn't hit!

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Most likely Crosby as Bernie will surely play the field once a week...
My point being the Yankees should get their DH from in-house rather then going out and getting a guy to be the full-time DH...I'm sure Bernie is going to DH at times as well...I'm sure you're going to see Posada DH from time to time as well to keep him fresh throughout the season...

Well Bernie and crosby are both horrible hitters and Posada is a good hitter for a catcher but below average for a DH.

[DandyAndy46]

that many black holes lead to inconsistant offences and a lot of rally killers. We dont need Ruth in 7-9 but we need mlb hitters in every spot. Id rather have a line up full of solid-good hitters 1-9 than a lineup that has superstars 1-5 and crap in the rest of the lineup.

No question you want good solid mlb hitters in every spot but show me a team besides the red sox that has as deep a lineup as the yankees...
I just don't understand why everyone is jumping off the cliff thinking that somehow the yankees offense is bad...

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Like I said before 9 solid-good hitters>5 superstars, rest crap

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

No question you want good solid mlb hitters in every spot but show me a team besides the red sox that has as deep a lineup as the yankees...
I just don't understand why everyone is jumping off the cliff thinking that somehow the yankees offense is bad...

Its not bad per say but very inconsistant last year with less blackholes, when we add more its only going to be more inconsistant. Like last year we scored 12 runs one night and 1 the next.

[DandyAndy46]

Throw in the fact that Matsui was less effective in 2005 than 2004, and there are no guarantees.

Less effective, I don't think so...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/matsuhi01.shtml

[Mattpat11]

No question you want good solid mlb hitters in every spot

Which is why we can't put the likes of Crosby and Phillips in the order.

[Wang's Groundballs]

I agree that everyday players naturally have more of an impact on a game as the nature of thier playing time would dictact that, however, relief pitching can cost a team a significant amount of games especially in the playoffs when competition is tighter and many games come down to one at bat, one pitch, one defensive play. It puts a strain on starting pitching to have to constantly worry about having great outings and going longer innings which then tires out our staff and leads to tired arms late season.

With the amount of slugging power we have on this team I would rather get superior middle relief over a superior CF, if I couldn't have both. If we can get both, great.

Giving up runs on defense or offense is just as bad as when a reliever does it. Last year, on offense and defense, Bernie cost us over 20 runs from what an average CF would have. The difference between a horrible middle reliever, lets call him Proctor, Scott, and an average relief pitcher over 50 innings is roughly 8 runs. That's not unimportant, but it's far less important than improving CF is.

[Wang's Groundballs]

Less effective, I don't think so...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/matsuhi01.shtml

What numbers are you looking at? His OBP, SLG, OPS+, RC/27 all went down in 2005.

[NewEraYanks2527]

If the keep walking guys and giving up homers it's not gonna matter if Andruw Jones is our centerfielder. Better defense would not have dramatically improved the results Embree, Felix Rodgriquez, or Proctor, etc..

Did you read my post at all about how they go hand in hand, or did you just look for the fact that I didn't fully agree with you and decided to come out with this rebuttle. No crap it wont matter if our bullpen guys keep walking people who is in the outfield but it will matter if they throw pitches that are put into play between Bernie and Sheffield. Obviously you need guys who can throw strikes and get outs but it doesn't matter if this improved bullpen causes the ball to be put in play and into the outfield where a better CFer could easily run it down.

[DandyAndy46]

Its not bad per say but very inconsistant last year with less blackholes, when we add more its only going to be more inconsistant. Like last year we scored 12 runs one night and 1 the next.

I'm confused by this entire post...I understand you're saying they were inconsistent but how are they adding more blackholes...by not having a DH....

P.S. It's still December...Baseball starts in March....have faith in Cash

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

I'm confused by this entire post...I understand you're saying they were inconsistent but how are they adding more blackholes...by not having a DH....

P.S. It's still December...Baseball starts in March....have faith in Cash

I have faith in Cash I was responding to the post in this thread. And by more blackholes I was responding to somebody saying Posada should DH and there are no catchers who can hit available(no Molina is not good).

[DandyAndy46]

What numbers are you looking at? His OBP, SLG, OPS+, RC/27 all went down in 2005.

Sorry, never been much of a stat geek...I was looking at his RBI, his BA, you know..old school stuff...

One of my favorite quotes....

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."

-- "The Immortal" Vin Scully

[DandyAndy46]

I have faith in Cash I was responding to the post in this thread. And by more blackholes I was responding to somebody saying Posada should DH and there are no catchers who can hit available(no Molina is not good).

ok, yeah I said he should DH, not on a daily basis, but 1 day a week to keep his legs fresh for October..

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

What numbers are you looking at? His OBP, SLG, OPS+, RC/27 all went down in 2005.

To be fair he was in a huge slump for the first half and then went back to his old self in the second half if I recall correctly.

[Wang's Groundballs]

Sorry, never been much of a stat geek...I was looking at his RBI, his BA, you know..old school stuff...

One of my favorite quotes....

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."

-- "The Immortal" Vin Scully

Some of my favorites:
"Think back to grade school. What's the first thing the dumb kids say to the smart kids to belittle them? They call them geeks, nerds, freaks. Anti-intellectualism is the last P.C. prejudice--certainly the Times would not allow one of its writers to refer to "The Urban League (aka The No-Whites Institute)"--and it's an easy way of mocking an idea without really addressing it."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=2740

''All truths go through three phases," said junior David Samet, paraphrasing the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. ''First they are laughed at. Then vehemently opposed. Then accepted as obvious."
http://www.boston.com/news/education..._em_in/?page=2

[Wang's Groundballs]

To be fair he was in a huge slump for the first half and then went back to his old self in the second half if I recall correctly.

Sure, but wins in the 1st half count just as much as the 2nd half, so you still have to use all the data available when comparing seasons.

[DandyAndy46]

Some of my favorites:
"Think back to grade school. What's the first thing the dumb kids say to the smart kids to belittle them? They call them geeks, nerds, freaks. Anti-intellectualism is the last P.C. prejudice--certainly the Times would not allow one of its writers to refer to "The Urban League (aka The No-Whites Institute)"--and it's an easy way of mocking an idea without really addressing it."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=2740

''All truths go through three phases," said junior David Samet, paraphrasing the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. ''First they are laughed at. Then vehemently opposed. Then accepted as obvious."
http://www.boston.com/news/education..._em_in/?page=2

Ok, I need to apologize...Didn't mean to belittle those who believe that statistics play an important role in baseball because there is no question that they do. All I was trying to say was that I am not as big on stats as others....
So to those whom I may have offended...."I am sorry"

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Sure, but wins in the 1st half count just as much as the 2nd half, so you still have to use all the data available when comparing seasons.

Agreed but we are predicting future performance not how much he helped the team last season.

[Saxmania]

Sorry, never been much of a stat geek...I was looking at his RBI, his BA, you know..old school stuff...

One of my favorite quotes....

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination."

-- "The Immortal" Vin Scully

I think OPS+ is probably the most useful of these - I use it often. 100 is average, above is better, below is worse. It's park-adjusted, and doesn't depend on the rest of the team (unlike RBI), while accounting for plate patience and power (unlike BA). Quick, easy to understand, comparable across teams and leagues.

By that measure, Matsui regressed in 2005 and Sheffield's been regressing for a couple of years now. I think that does not bode well for 2006, although I think Matsui may improve. But I'm worried about Sheffield.

While your quote is very famous, I think it highlights what people do wrong with statistics (or, as I like to call them, 'facts'). They decide their position, then look up the statistics that support them. I'd like to see people prepared to change their mind when the 'facts' contradict their assumptions. Perhaps we should try to avoid acting like the drunk in Scully's line. Sober people would appreciate the light more.

Obviously, baseball is a very trivial case of this, but the same attitude could be attributed to people when thinking about politics, economics, science . . . It's very unhealthy.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[SoCal Pinstriper]

But I'm worried about Sheffield.

At Sheff's age, decline is expected. The only reason I see to think that his fall off might not continue in '06, is that he'll be chasing what will probably be his last big contract.