More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.
Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?
More and more it appears that teams are making unrealisitc requests (Wanting both Wang and Cano) even though it's been written time and time again that those are just not available options.
Are teams just not interested in dealing with the Yankees?
"Fans don't boo nobodies..." - Reggie Jackson
I do believe there is a Yankee Tax. But let's face facts. The Yankees have only 3 real trade chips on their major league roster right now. Cano, Wang, and Chacon. That's it. And otherwise it's Duncan and Hughes. The rest are problems to trade either because they won't (Jeter, A-Rod, Matsui, Rivera, etc.), their salaries are too big (Giambi, Sheffield, Posada, Mussina), etc.Originally Posted by destro
And the Yankees glut of minor league talent isn't at the AAA stage, it's at the lower levels, where they are stacked (though, shhhh...don't tell Gammons, he'd like to keep trashing them). It is what it is, this might be the offseason that the Yankees just take their lumps and keep letting the farm develop.
"I just won you the pennant. I got you Steve Trout."
-- George Steinbrenner to Lou Piniella after trading for Trout from the Cubs, 1987.
I believe the Yanks are simply limited in what other teams want. The extreme talent the Yanks possess is either too expensive for other clubs, or the Yanks rightfully don't want to move those guys.
So, what they have left is two players at the major league level in Cano and Wang who are young, talented, and cheap. They have NO premium prospects. None. Someone like Hughes is extremely promising, but he's not even in the top dozen or so pitching prospects in the game. Probably even lower than that. He's a very good prospect, but a half season of success in the low minors (and one cut short by injury) is not going to spur another team to give up premium talent. He will be requested to be included, but he won't be the centerpiece.
Outside of Hughes, you have Duncan, who holds value. But again, he's not really a "premium" prospect- a very good one, but not elite. The Yanks are doing much better with talent in the lower levels, but they are extremely poor in the upper part of the system. Now, they produced two gems last year- so it's not that bad. But when discussing trades, other clubs have a lot more chips.
Quite frankly, I don't think there are many GM's left that ask for more from the Yanks. 10 years ago? Yes. Maybe even 5. But nowadays, it's become streamlined enough that almost everyone will make a deal if it helps their own club.
Would you want to send quality players to a team that just sloppily spends obscene amounts of money in a gluttonous manner? Why make the Yankees better when you can make their opponents better? It's the American way, competition and level playing fields and all that.
If the Yankees spent their money better, they wouldn't need the younger stars of other teams that can't afford them anymore. The Yankees should be growing their own crop of superstars.
Part of it is the Yankees history of lopsided deals to get the player they want right now but also Wang and Cano, whether we want to admit it or not, are the closest to premium trading chips we have.
I like it because it forces us to go with our internal players.I would love Beckett but he does have a blister problem and he has had Tude issues in the past.NY doesn't sound like a good fit where as you know it hasn't been a problem with Cano or Wang.
There is no Yankee tax. There just aren't Yankee players to trade after Cano and Wang. Every deal starts off with Team A asking for Team B's Cano and Wang. Team B always says no. The issue becomes, does Team B have something else that Team A wants? The Red Sox were able to trade for Beckett because they had a player after Lester that the Marlins still wanted in Sanchez. The Yankees currently don't have that...they don't have a guy in the upper minors or pre-arbitration who is comparable to Cano to substitute for him. Years of questionably conservative drafts (all run out of Tampa, btw) have put the Yankees in this situation.
There was a rumor that the WhiteSox might trade Rowand to Florida for Pierre. If that happens hopefuuly the yanks can work out a deal for him.
Wanting Cano and Wang isn't being unreasonable when you're trading a young stud like Beckett. They're the only two ML ready, cheap trading chips the Yanks have.
I don't see it as a reluctance to trade with the Yanks.
That would laughably be a terrible deal for the Chisox. Don't see how that rumor could get started- if the Chisox deal Rowand it is because they believe they have his replacement. Rowand is better than Pierre in just about everything. Heck, he's probably even more valuable on the bases than Pierre.
I hope Juan Pierre has a huge year next season and proves all of the "experts" on these boards wrong.
This morning sucks.
Boston gets Beckett, and here we are talking about getting Rowand...Aaron Rowand for gods sake.
Wow nice counter move, we are screwed for the next 8 yrs now.
The F.O. should be creative this offseason to solve the CF and bullpen problems. The F.A. market is not full of players in the areas of the yankees needs but has a lot of players in other areas.
By "huge year", what does that mean? I don't think Pierre is a bad player, but I do think he is overrated. He's a decent defender- not great. For some reason, he's not as good now as he was a few years back. Same with his base-stealing. He had a season two years ago where he was atrocious on the bases- he stole over 40 but got caught over 20. He hurt them significantly there. Last year he was better- but only about to the point where he broke even or slightly helped with the percentage of times he was caught.
He doesn't have any power, and doesn't walk a heck of a lot. So he needs to hit .310 or higher to be helpful at the top of a lineup.
He's a nice player- and a world better than anyone the Yanks currently have. But not someone to give up a ton of talent for....
Pierre is anything but a young stud.
"I am the law, bitch"
Speaking in terms of relative value to the team, the difference between Rowand and what the Yankees did last year in CF is bigger than the difference between Beckett and David Wells (the likely odd man out once he is traded to SD).
why not give furcal the cf job?
i mean if there's no other option?
I'm NO american born confused desi, but i love my yanks!
The great thing about the way Cashman and co. seem to be operating these days is that they no longer feel the need to "counter". There's no sense in topping the Sox if it is not the right move. And if it is the right move, it is made regardless of what the Sox are doing.
Aaron Rowand to the Yanks possibly helps the Yankees as much or more as Beckett helps the Red Sox.
A few years ago when the Sox got Schill, we countered that move by aquiring A-Rod(well I guess we more or less needed a 3b)
Now they get another pitching stud, so I will stand here and guarantee that we end up trading for a MAJOR hitter this offseason, to try and counter their excellent pitching move with a lineup move of our own.
I love Beckett but I agree, what credebility does the Rowand rumours got?
"I am the law, bitch"
One thing needs to be understood:
If the Yanks aren't willing to deal players of value (i.e. Cano, Wang, Chacon, Hughes, Duncan & co) then no one is going to dump talented players on their lap.
This means that our offseason hopes need to rely on either the signing of expensive free agents or the mixed use of cheap FAs and our small pool of minor league talent (Matt Smith, Andy Philips. Kevin Thompson...etc).
There is no anti-Yankees bias if we can offer a good deal. The truth is that Boston gave up half of their top 4 prospects to make a risky trade. If the Yankees want to make a similar splash we will need to bite the bullett as welll.
Note: Just for the record, Sheffield, Pavano, Posada, Wright, Womack...etc are, for various reasons, not particularly attractive trade chips -- it is not realistic to expect to get the world (or anything) in exchange for some of these guys.
SI: Do you have a secret ambition?
Igawa: That's secret.
"They should just practice during the regular season and show up for the playoffs -Ichiro on the Yankees
Realisticaly, how can anyone deny that every other team in MLB does'nt have the gigantic payroll of the Yankees in the back of their mind? They are going to ask for the best the Yanks have to offer as standard procedure, yet, they also know that the Yanks will spend whatever to replace those players. And, I also think that there is just a little bit of, " Let's hold the Yanks over a barrel" attitude. That 200 mil war chest is always looming in the minds of other teams in any deal, imho.
" My whole thing is, you're only playing for three hours a day. The least you can do is play hard. " Derek Jeter
I think this is what some fans forget to realize. Look at the pending trade btwn the Sox and Fish. The Sox are getting a good young pitcher but they are giving up one top prospect and two other good ones. The sox also have to pick up Lowell's contract as well. Sure the Sox get what they need in Beckett but they lose three good youngsters and gain an inflated contract with lowell. My point being that if the Yankees tried to trade for Pierre they would end up paying over market value.
Get 27!
The part that bothers me about the Beckett deal, is the fact that the Sox didnt even have to give up their top pitching prospect Lester.
That just sucks man.
They actually countered by signing Sheffield. A-Rod showed up in February, but the point is well taken, the Yankees will most likely respond to this by upping their offense.
"I just won you the pennant. I got you Steve Trout."
-- George Steinbrenner to Lou Piniella after trading for Trout from the Cubs, 1987.
The things is, if you trade with the Yankess you have to get something from them on the major league level.
Cano and wang are young players, and to a GM of another team, any trade that doesn't include those guys makes you look like a fool. The red Sox best young players are not major leaguers.
The days of Yankees getting talent without losing a major league player are over. I think ther eis a yankee task. For Curt Schilling, Arizona wanted Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano. The DBacks got Casey Fossum instead. I don't know about you, but that is as lopsided a trade as I have ever seen.
It even took us Javier Vazquez, Brad Halsey and our top catching prospect to get RJ.
They could have had Cano too, guess we their scouts aren't very good either.
CAGE KT!!!!!!
It's not that the Yankees best young players are in the majors, it's that there isn't anything comparable in the upper minors. If the Yankees had a Sanchez to their Cano (whether he was in the majors or AA), they probably could have made a deal here. They don't.
Scouting and solid drafts. They gave up two premium prospects. As someone else noted in another thread, the Yanks don't possess those "fallback" options. If the Yanks say not to Duncan or Hughes, there is nobody that excites other teams. The Sox said yes to one of their best position prospects (and the closest to being ready) in Ramirez, and were able to offer a very good prospect in Sanchez after they said no to Lester.
A while ago people were saying how they hoped he'd have a huge 2005 next season and prove all of the 'experts' on these boards wrong. He's just not all that good.
In the end, though, we went out and got Tony Womack, which might well be Pierre's future.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
I never mentioned Pierre.
"a young stud like Beckett"
I agree. Shaking my head in disgust.
I can't believe people are upset about the sox getting Beckett and Lowell. We should be celebrating.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
Good one. You do know that Beckett isn't that good right? He's injury prone on top of that.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
You keep saying that Beckett isn't that good. Can you name 10 pitchers in the league (age being a factor) that you would rather have then Beckett?
Good one. You do know that Beckett isn't that good right? He's injury prone on top of that.
Wang and Cano was/is the price foe Pierre.
"I am the law, bitch"
Actually, they acquired Vazquez and Kevin Brown. I believe those deals happened (the Vazquez one) within 7 days of the Sox getting Schilling.
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I don't know that we shoud be celebrating. From a pure on the field standpoint, they should be better. And they have potential to be a LOT better if Beckett leaps. However......
If this trade forces the Red Sox to react to their increased payroll by shedding important major league talent- or not re-signing a cog in their lineup like Damon (who, even though it would be foolish to sign him long-term is still a pretty good offensive player)- I could see it being a bonus.
If the Sox now deal Ramirez, they will lack some of the upper-level minor league talent to get a replacement.
The Sox essentially hitched their horse to the Beckett wagon. I don't blame them based on his talent, but if they are wrong it is a disastrous move. If they are right? They landed an ace for a decade.
WHY? Beckett gives me nightmares and flashbacks of 2003.
"When white belts want to learn jiu jitsu they go to a black belt. When black belts want to learn jiu jitsu they go to John Danaher."
Santana
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Lackey
Patterson
Buehrle
Webb
Zambrano
Harden
Do you want me to keep going?
In 2005 he was 15-8 with 3.37 ERA, over his carrer he is 41-34 3.46 ERA. He also possesses a whole lot of potential. Prior to this year he was a .500 pitcher with flashes of brilliance so I can understand why some people arent sold on him. Also it will be interesting to see what happens to his ERA when he comes to the AL. My guess is that he will have around the same record with a little higher ERA which is OK but not great.
Get 27!
I would remove lackey, patterson, webb and even willis. But i would add prior, schmidt.
No way you remove Willis, the kid is a horse and a tough one at that.
The loser now will be later to win...
You'd rather have Victor Zambrano?
Prior needs to be on that list too, injury and all. He's a guy who, if healthy, is pretty much going to be an ace.
Carpenter at 31 is close- I'd probably choose him if I was a contender. Felix Hernandez, even with his age, is a definite. His upside is simply off the charts and he looks ready.
There are certainly a bunch of pitchers out there that would be more desirable than Beckett- no question. Most of these guys, however, are not available.
Josh Beckett, out of pitcher who were either available via free agency or trade, was at or near the top of the list.
Santana
Sheets
King Felix
Prior
Peavy
Willis
Oswalt
Halladay
Chacin
Harden
Just the ones I could think of from the top of my head.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
Is that why you're scared? Dude look at this objectively and not in as a scared fan.
Slaughter Is The Best Medicine
-=2009=WORLD=CHAMPIONS=-
FIRE JETER
I haven't seen too much of Chacin, but I would take the rest any day over Beckett.
NYY Triforce
Phil Hughes
Joba Chamberlain
Ian Kennedy
I wouldn't. Lackey has really developed. He's the Angel's best pitcher, and he's very good. He had a little command issue for a bit, but he's made the jump.
Patterson and Webb? Probably prefer Beckett for the upside, but a solid case can be made that they are currently better pitchers. Not Willis- he's clearly a better pitcher than Beckett right now.
Halladay and Sheets I forgot too. Not Chacin- I believe he's a smoke and mirrors pitcher- the more he is seen, the less effective he will be. He has decent stuff and a funky delivery. Not a big fan.
Teams want to screw the Yankees over, period.
I'd say Patterson and Webb are comparable, but they are also likely to pitch a lot more. That has substantial value.
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