As Jim Palmer said, even Casey Stengel couldn't do anything with that mess.Originally Posted by bobby jr
As Jim Palmer said, even Casey Stengel couldn't do anything with that mess.
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While the O's may indeed have a better second half (only because it would be next to impossible to get worse), I think it would be overly optimistic to dream of making a serious run at 4th place.
~John
Guess who has the toughest schedule remaining in all of MLB (based on opponent's WP)?
http://espn.go.com/mlb/huntforoctober
Well of course, they don't get to play the Orioles.
It's looking like Buck Showalter is the favorite to take over as O's manager. This would be good news for the team, he has a history of achievement and making good things happen fast.
http://www.masnsports.com/school_of_...--part-ii.html
So we know where Buck will be for the next 2 1/2 years until he's fired.
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You make it sound like a mistake coming to Baltimore to manage..
I think the opposite is true. If Buck comes here as manager and fails, people would say the situation was a hopeless one, and he wouldn't get blamed. But if the teams turns around while he is manager, he gets a lot of the credit.
Casey Stengel wouldn't win with that organization run under Angelos.
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A notorious control freak working under Peter Angelos. This should end well.
They're not saying that about Trembley even though the situation was hopeless for him too.
I can't complain but sometimes I still do. - Joe Walsh
That was a different situation. Trembley had no prior record of success. Neither did Mazzilli or Perlazzo. They all failed and did not impress anyone while they were managing the Orioles.
Showalter has a proven record of success which would not be erased if he took over the O's and failed. People would say, he succeeded elsewhere, but in Baltimore it is impossible to win. But if he succeeds and the team turns around, he is looked upon as a winner.
One rumor I heard on WBAL Baltimore sportsline radio tonight was that Showalter would be hired by the all star break but not take over as manager until next year, after the team signs some new players. The theory being that it would not be good for him to take over a poor team midseason and then lose out the season. Also it would give him 3 months to assess the players on the Orioles.
Better to have a fresh start next year.
Maybe I've missed it and I know it's not been the case in the past but I don't recall Angelos meddling much since MacPhail came on board.
What kind of moron would keep hiring all these inexperienced managers?
World Champions
1923 1927 1928 1932 1936 1937 1938 1939 1941 1943 1947 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1956 1958 1961 1962 1977 1978 1996 1998 1999 2000 2009
Davey Johnson comes to mind.. It's not a coincidence that the team went to cr@p after he parted ways with St Peter.
updating...
Inexperienced manager sometimes turn into good ones who lead their team to the WS. However I think this time around the O's will hire someone with experience and reputation, which is why Showalter is the favorite right now. The situation calls for an experienced manager.What kind of moron would keep hiring all these inexperienced managers?
I think the biggest disappointment as manager for the O's was Mazzilli. Why did the Yankees ever think he was managerial material for the future at least that is what the rumors were.
To goad the Orioles into signing him.
Surely a sign of how far the Orioles have fallen in the Angelos era. After becoming CEO in 1993, this is his 18th season in charge. Here's the breakdown:
1993-1998 - 0.534 winning percentage
1999-2004 - 0.443 winning percentage
2005-2010* - 0.414 winning percentage
*not yet complete; pro-rata to 162 games would reduce the figure further.
2004 was the last year in which Baltimore won more games than in the previous season.
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
A well-run organization indeed.
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The darkest hour is right before the dawn. Obviously the team cannot continue to have a lower winning percentage each year.
Well, Angelos seems determined to test that theory!
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
Then this team should be the Anchorage Orioles. I hear they have nights that last for months in Alaska.
Orignally posted by bobby jr
He is probably one guy who could indeed pull this franchise out of the wood-chipper, but I don't expect things to improve dramatically in a short period of time. If things continue to go as they have since '97, it will be nearly impossible to keep the decent players they do have and the money that NY, Boston, Toronto Tampa Bay or a number of NL teams can offer them won't be the only reason they leave.It's looking like Buck Showalter is the favorite to take over as O's manager. This would be good news for the team, he has a history of achievement and making good things happen fast.
September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.
While it's true that hitting rock bottom can sometimes become a catalyst for change in organizations as well as individuals, I don't necessarily see Peter Angelos as having come to any sort of revelation that there is anything wrong with way he has been running his franchise.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it certainly seems like business as usual in Baltimore. Firing/hiring another manager is once again putting a silk dress on a sow.
At the end of the day, it's still a pig.
~John
I ask again. Why do you all think this is Angelos and not MacPhail pulling the strings now?
The GM role has been as big a revolving door as the manager under Peter Angelos. Different silk dress. Same old pig. What's the difference? The only consistent piece of the O's sinking ship over the last dozen or so years has been the captain. The buck has to stop there, IMO.
This seems to be the consensus among people who care much more about the Orioles than I do:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/o...,4559840.story
"I just think we don't think we have the kind of leadership and coaches that we need here to make this a better organization like we had when we all played," Paul Blair said during a news conference before the game between the Orioles and Washington Nationals at Camden Yards. "There's no structure here. There's no leadership here. Until we get that, we're going to continue to struggle."You can't have six or seven managers in 12 or 13 years, and have six or seven general managers and expect to win. Every general manager that comes in has his own philosophy, his own people and might be a little different than the last guy. That's been a big problem here."
Their message, directed at Orioles owner Peter Angelos, was echoed by many of their former teammates as well as his manager, Earl Weaver.
~John
I mentioned earlier that even former O's players, who are now part of the broadcast booth (Palmer, Eddie Murray, Brady Anderson and others) have been very critical of the way the same negative things just keep happening over and over again. It's unusual for this to be spoken on the air, but as you said, it's because players who came through the system during the era of "The Oriole Way" care about what has gone from a once proud franchise to a laughing stock.
September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.
Well now, there was a point at which the Orioles did win 4 games in a row, so your characterizing them as a 'laughing stock" seems way, way out of line. You should temper your rhetoric.
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Rodents Of Unusual Size
"Pride. Power. Rat Poop."
MacPhail's track record isn't terrible. His Twins won 2 World Series while he was GM. Obviously his tenure as Cubs president was much less successful, but the team averaged 79 wins a season during his tenure (pro-rated to include the 1995 season) — that's nothing to write home about or be proud of but it displays at least a minimum level of competence. 79 wins would be a glorious season for the Orioles organization right now. Did MacPhail become historically stupid all at once?
Just because Angelos isn't making as much of a public show of his stupidity as he once did doesn't mean he isn't still hurting the organization.
I forgot about that franchise-redeeming 4-game win streak. Put that in your Stephen Strasburg/Bryce Harper pipe and smoke it, Nationals!!!!!
What is Angelos doing that is so terrible? I don't see it. Angelos isn't meddling, MacPhail wouldn't have taken the job unless Angelos agreed to back off. There are no newspaper stories about Angelos canceling trades, etc, like there used to be years ago.
Also the Orioles payroll is in the middle of the pack not the bottom with the Pirates, so it isn't like Angelos is just pocketing all the money.
Perhaps MacPhail is not as good of a GM as he used to be.. MacPhail's rebuilding plan just hasn't worked out the way he expected it to, although there are some bright prospects for the future.
Angelos reminds me a bit of the Boss in the 80s, minus the neswpaper bluster - stupidly spending money and overriding baseball personel. Maybe he's learned his leasson and and has become more hands off. I don't know but it is pretty clear that the past 5 to 10 years the oriels have not drafted particularly well nor made may FA signings that can be considered a sucess and the only trade that I can recall really working for them so far is the Bedard to Seattle deal.
Baseball is life;
the rest is just details.
The big difference is George is a winner and right or wrong he would always do anything in his power to help his team win. He would never tolerate the losing culture that has developed in baltimore that has lasted well over a decade. Angelos is a loser and has turned the team into a laughingstock. The only way the orioles will ever win is when he sells the team or is 6 feet under which hopefully is a long long way away.
World Champions
1923 1927 1928 1932 1936 1937 1938 1939 1941 1943 1947 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1956 1958 1961 1962 1977 1978 1996 1998 1999 2000 2009
A fish rots from the head down.
Steinbrenner's market size and revenues with the Yankees far exceeds Angelos's with the Orioles. It is impossible to tell which owner would have won more games, Steinbrenner or Angelos, if there were an equal playing field, such as there was before free agency.The big difference is George is a winner and right or wrong he would always do anything in his power to help his team win. He would never tolerate the losing culture that has developed in baltimore that has lasted well over a decade. Angelos is a loser and has turned the team into a laughingstock. The only way the orioles will ever win is when he sells the team or is 6 feet under which hopefully is a long long way away.
Hey look, The Orioles lost tonight. How weird.
I heard this today...Did Coltrane actually exist? This is like being blind for 50 years, regaining sight, and then peering directly at the sun.
A NEW BET PROPOSAL TO JUNIOR:
How about we bet which team has more wins by the end of the season? You of course, take your Orioles.
I'll take the Washington Nationals.
It's $1 per win at the end of the regular season. Whichever team has more wins, wins!The loser of the bet pays this site the difference in number of regular season wins.
I'm anxiously awaiting your response.
....
Oh, I lost my head for a minute there. Please, forgive me.
September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.
Angelos was the one who was handing out the fat contracts in the early to mid 90's....and for awhile, he had a good thing going because he was paying the right players. When the wheels started to fall off, instead of trying to put them back on, he went out and tried to keep the car rolling with re-treads instead of buying new ones. Steinbrenner/Cash made a few deals that bit them in the assets (Kevin Brown, Pavano and Randy Johnson, for example). The difference is Steinbrenner/Cash didn't keep on making the same mistakes. Winning is everything to The Boss. It starts at the top.
I've seen plenty of commercials for Pete's law firm, however. As long as the wheels don't fall off that wagon, everything is cool.
September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.
Bobby again 'forgets' that there was no such level playing field before free agency. Unless he is saying that an era with no revenue sharing, no salary cap, and no luxury tax qualifies as a 'level playing field'. In which case, I look forward to him continuing to make the case against the luxury tax, salary cap, and revenue sharing . . .
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
There was NEVER a level playing field.
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exactly. Blaming the other guy or faulting the system is the language of losers. Ignoring the facts staring you in the face and arguing an indefensible point will get you nowhere.
Angelos has doomed the team with bad decision making. So to make it even, the Jays, Yankees, Boston and Tampa should be forced to make equally destructive decisions so as to make the Baltimore franchise feel good about itself.
Forget trying to win, the league should force the Yankees and Rays to sit their starting 2nd baseman to make it even? The league should force the Yankees to sit CC and the Rays to sit Price because Beckett is injured? That would really make the playing field level. Better yet, every time the O's have to play an east team, the east team should field their AA affiliate, that'll really make the playing field level.
updating...
Look, if the Yankees didn't have more money, how would they have fared without free agents Reggie Jackson, CC, Tex, Giambi. And they couldn't have afforded A-Rod, or keeping the nucleus of their team for so many years without losing Jeter, Posoda, Rivera or Pettitte to free agency. (OK they lost Pettitte but got him back pretty quickly).
The Yankees success and their championships under Steinbrenner have a lot to do with market size and revenue. The Yankees didn't win any championships under Steinbrenner before free agency started.
or Babe Ruth, or Lou Gehrig, or Joe DiMaggio or Mickey Mantle when it was even less fair.
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The Yankees success and ability to make money recently has more to do with the fact that they were able to build a successful team without that benefit. In 1995, the first year they made the playoffs after that mid 80s to early 90s slump, the Yankees were middle of the pack in attendance (7th out of 14) averaging 24,361 per game. A figure like that today would only be attained through many years of failure. The fact that the Yankees were able to build a team around three and possibly four future Hall-of-Famers through development fueled the success that brought the fans, and the money, to the franchise. That is something that has been replicated time and time again. The Orioles had the top payroll in the majors about a decade ago, mostly because they had a successful team and they could afford to (they were first in the AL in attendance in 1995). It took many years of utter failure for the Orioles to reach the state they are in now, not the Yankees.
Bobby, you plumb new depths.
1973: George Steinbrenner III buys the New York Yankees. The Yankees were 79-76 the previous year, finishing 4th out of 6 teams in the division.
1975: Free agency is introduced.
So your point is that in the massive 3 seasons between Steinbrenner taking control of the Yankees, and free agency being introduced, New York won no World Series? Wow. That surely is insightful!
Next you'll be telling me that Stephen Strasburg is bad at baseball, because Washington have won zero pennants since he was called up . . .
Be seeing you,
Saxmania
Mayonnaise is a demanding master.
Yep and even with the highest payroll back in 1998 they still finished 35 games back in the division.The Orioles had the top payroll in the majors about a decade ago
World Champions
1923 1927 1928 1932 1936 1937 1938 1939 1941 1943 1947 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1956 1958 1961 1962 1977 1978 1996 1998 1999 2000 2009
You miss the point which is that the Yankees championships were in part dependent upon free agency under Steinbrenner. Subtract free agent Reggie Jackson from the 1977 1978 Yankees and probably there would be two less WS rings for the Yankees. Also they signed Goose Gossage as free agent for the 1978 season.
To assert that Steinbrenner is a "winner" should be qualifed by the statement that he won under a system which gave his team a huge competitive advantage. He would not have had similar success had he owned the Indians. Due to the lack of market size and revenue.
I also believe Angelos would have had success if he had owned the Yankees, based upon the competitive advantage based upon payroll.
Peter Angelos couldn't win with a $400 million payroll if it were 1990. Money can't compensate for a lack of competence or intelligence, neither of which (in the baseball world) Angelos has any.
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Exactly:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/o...,4559840.story
The kind of mistakes I've seen on the field, which are even more glaring this season, have nothing to do with the payroll or salary caps or the AL East. You learn to hit the cut-off man, call for fly balls, run the bases and charge grounders in Little League. I shudder to think what would have happened to Pettitte, Jeter, Mo and Posada if they'd come up through the O's farm system and then, once reaching the majors, had no competent coaches, managers or even veterans to make sure that talent reached it's maximum potential. Sure, they all were gifted to begin with, but without the right people, attitude and drive in place during their early years, all the talent in the world wouldn't make any difference. What Jeter, Pettitte, Mo and Posada have learned, is not only being passed on to Hughes, Chamberlain and Cervelli....but also to each player who puts on that Yankee uniform. If you don't get with the program, you're not around long. The talented players that Baltimore has right now don't have the kind of support system which breeds success and you cannot blame Steinbrenner, Epstein or anybody else for that."You've got to fight your general manager sometimes," Weaver said. "We were blessed with one of the best scouting systems in baseball. They not only scouted ability, but intelligence, and [willingness] to play. You've got to have good scouts. Bless his soul, I love the guy, but Syd Thrift when he was here, tore up our scouting system. We had some pretty good scouts go to other ballclubs."
September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.
I believe Angelos would have been the James Dolan of baseball had he owned the Yankees.
I'm a huge New York Rangers fan, and I watched the Rangers suck when they were in an uncapped NHL, and signing one free agent after another to huge contracts, and not getting any better. It was excruciating.
And how about those Cincinnati Reds? Small market, low payroll, irrelevant for 20 years. Suddenly they get Walt Jocketty, a guy who knows what he's doing, and they're a first place team, coming into New York and administering a beat-down to the big market, big payroll Mets.
Fall down a rabbit hole: Joe Frank.com
How about Chris Tillman outpitching Cliff Lee last night? Everyone thought this was a mismatch, well it was as the O's easily beat the first place Rangers for the 3rd straight time on the road. 6 to 1, with Tillman carrying a no hitter into the late innings. Lee was ineffective.
Too bad about the 15 thousand plus walk up Ranger fans who came to see their new star pitcher. Instead they saw one of the Orioles upcoming young pitchers shine, Chris Tillman, 21 years old, shutting their team down.
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