The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Why Not?]

It's like having 4 teams in the division instead of 5

I don't know which team is worse, the O's for not making the Oswalt deal and then flipping him for some extra talent or the 'stros for even thinking of trading Oswalt. Who on earth would trade Oswalt??!!?

It appears that ownership from both clubs killed this deal nearly simultaneously Sunday night. Angelos because he's a meddling idiot. McLane because he didn't want Oswalt to wind up cross-state with the Rangers.

Houston was willing to part with Oswalt because they really need offense and it was clear that Oswalt is going to test free agency after 2007. I can't see them getting a better player in return for Oswalt than Tejada between now and next year's deadline, especially considering Tejada is signed for reasonable numbers through 2009.

[Spiker101]

It appears that ownership from both clubs killed this deal nearly simultaneously Sunday night. Angelos because he's a meddling idiot. McLane because he didn't want Oswalt to wind up cross-state with the Rangers.

Houston was willing to part with Oswalt because they really need offense and it was clear that Oswalt is going to test free agency after 2007. I can't see them getting a better player in return for Oswalt than Tejada between now and next year's deadline, especially considering Tejada is signed for reasonable numbers through 2009.

As I understood the deal it was Oswalt AND Ensberg and Everett. From a Yankee fans point of view, other than Abreu, Lidle and Wilson, the most interesting development during the trading season was the Astros putting a price on Oswalt. He's going to be available. I'm sure Cashman was paying attention.

[Spiker101]

oswalt WILL hit FA after '07. he has no intention of extending his deal for anybody...

You don't think the Yanks could acquire him in a trade and get him to sign a long-term deal? I disagree with that.

[Why Not?]

As I understood the deal it was Oswalt AND Ensberg and Everett. From a Yankee fans point of view, other than Abreu, Lidle and Wilson, the most interesting development during the trading season was the Astros putting a price on Oswalt. He's going to be available. I'm sure Cashman was paying attention.

Yes, Everett and Ensberg were also included. The Orioles would have put Ensberg at 1B. Everett was pointless as Brandon Fahey already provides good-field/no-hit at SS.

I suspect Oswalt's availabiltity raised eyebrows everywhere, unless Houston has been quietly shopping him. I would think the Bronx would be a possible location for Oswalt in 2008, if not before. I've seen a couple of places that Oswalt REALLY wants to spread his free agent wings, so I don't think he'd take a discount from anybody.

[Spiker101]

I suspect Oswalt's availabiltity raised eyebrows everywhere, unless Houston has been quietly shopping him. I would think the Bronx would be a possible location for Oswalt in 2008, if not before. I've seen a couple of places that Oswalt REALLY wants to spread his free agent wings, so I don't think he'd take a discount from anybody.

Nor do the Yanks need for him to accept a discount. The Yanks can and will pay him fair market value should they be able to trade for him in the offseason, which is what I think they should try to do. I'm not that excited by a Zito or a Japanese import.

[ojo]

You don't think the Yanks could acquire him in a trade and get him to sign a long-term deal? I disagree with that.

fair enough. the yankees are probably in a list of teams that you can count off on one hand that could make him re-think that...

[Jace]

Don't get me wrong, if he sold the team tomorrow I'd be thrilled...but for the reasons I stated, I don't think it's impossible for them to turn it around under him. He's a dictatorial owner, but at the end of the day, he wants to make his money. Until now, you could argue that it would be more profitable for him to not worry about putting a whole lot into the team. Now, with the cable deal, he needs to drum up excitement if he has any hope of MASN surviving as a viable channel in and of itself. Hopefully...hopefully...he'll realize that the way to do that (now that the trading deadline has come and gone...) is to make some sort of a splash this offseason, and that his baseball guys know what they're talking about.

No offense, but if any fanbase should realize that an owner can potentially right the ship, it's the Yankees'.

Imagine you are a major league GM now, and you just saw what Angelos did to 2 complex but fully worked-out deals that both the Orioles' and the trade partner's GMs put a lot of hard work and time into. Why should you ever take the Orioles seriously in a big time trade deal again?

I probably wouldn't. I'd try and do any one sided deals for me that look possible, but I wouldn't put any hard negotiating in, because Angelos, a man that hired his GMs to do this job but obviously puts no trust in them, has a good chance of just negating it all. The Orioles are no longer serious trade targets for major league teams, and its your owner's fault. This is going to continue to hurt you badly, probably for as long as he owns them

[MelmoandMiggy]

Imagine you are a major league GM now, and you just saw what Angelos did to 2 complex but fully worked-out deals that both the Orioles' and the trade partner's GMs put a lot of hard work and time into. Why should you ever take the Orioles seriously in a big time trade deal again?

I probably wouldn't. I'd try and do any one sided deals for me that look possible, but I wouldn't put any hard negotiating in, because Angelos, a man that hired his GMs to do this job but obviously puts no trust in them, has a good chance of just negating it all. The Orioles are no longer serious trade targets for major league teams, and its your owner's fault. This is going to continue to hurt you badly, probably for as long as he owns them

Seemingly...seemingly.

Honestly, I can't disagree with you. And again, if he sells the team I'll be thrilled. But he's been seriously meddling and accused of blocking deals ever since he vetoed a trade of David Wells in 1996, right before the team went on a tear and won the Wild Card and made it to the ALCS. This is nothing new, yet there are still teams willing to work out potential deals with Duquette and Flanagan. If, by the grade of God, Angelos ever just lets them do their job, things could get turned around.

[keithf1]

The Jeter ball in 96 would have been a double and Duncan (the next man up) had a base hit to right. The Baltimore Orioles as a franchise are a joke. Keep digging up more stuff that happened 10 years ago.

[MelmoandMiggy]

The Jeter ball in 96 would have been a double and Duncan (the next man up) had a base hit to right. The Baltimore Orioles as a franchise are a joke. Keep digging up more stuff that happened 10 years ago.

I don't know if that was in reference to my point or a very late and very weak attempt to reignite the Maier controvery discussion from...several pages ago now.

Anyway, my comment was about a trade that Pat Gillick had in place that would have sent David Wells out of Baltimore near the trade deadline in 1996. I honestly remember none of the specifics, not even who the other team involved was. Anyway, Angelos insisted that we could compete that year with Wells, and vetoed the trade. That move worked. Ever since then, he seems to have gotten it in his head that he knows what he's talking about more than his GM-du jour, and that has been his problem.

By the way...go Terps

[Quangormo]

As an act of mercy to the Orioles fans, someone should give Havana Pete Howard Spira's phone number.

[MelmoandMiggy]

Comcast and MASN have reached an agreement that will put the station on the basic cable package for most areas starting September 1.

This means something in the neighborhood of $40 million in additional annual revenue to the Orioles. Now, let's just hope they do something with it.

http://www.masn.tv/news/view_press_release.cfm?id=300

[GoTerpsGo]

Palmer's impossible to listen to, literally. Palmer doesn't do radio, just TV.

I have to disagree. Palmer is TERRIBLE on TV too.

I saw a somewhat rotund guy wearing a "Yankees Suck" shirt in the background when the righties were batting. Dude that is so wrong and old - go back to Dundalk and drink your sorrows away...

[GoTerpsGo]

This means something in the neighborhood of $40 million in additional annual revenue to the Orioles. Now, let's just hope they do something with it.

You got it wrong - it's what will ANGELOS do with that money. He'll probably roll up those bills and smoke them.

[NelsonMuntz]

I have to disagree. Palmer is TERRIBLE on TV too.

I saw a somewhat rotund guy wearing a "Yankees Suck" shirt in the background when the righties were batting. Dude that is so wrong and old - go back to Dundalk and drink your sorrows away...

I almost had to turn the volume down last night when Palmer started in with his usual whining about the Yankees always getting the close calls. He was a great pitcher but he really is an awful broadcaster.

[bobby jr]

Well the Orioles tough times are over, at least for today!

A 1 hitter against the Yankees. A 1 hitter! The Orioles beat Mussina, and probably ended his chances of ever winning 20 games.

This will be a game I will remember at the end of the year, no matter what else happens.

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

[JeffWeaverFan]

The Jeter ball in 96 would have been a double and Duncan (the next man up) had a base hit to right.

I hate to say it, but that ball would have been caught. There's no doubt about it.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

Well the Orioles tough times are over, at least for today!

A 1 hitter against the Yankees. A 1 hitter! The Orioles beat Mussina, and probably ended his chances of ever winning 20 games.

This will be a game I will remember at the end of the year, no matter what else happens.

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

What in the blue hell are you talking about? Ending his chances of ever winning 20? He we on pace for 20 wins before this game, so hes on pace for what 18 or 19 now? He still has a decent shot at 20.

On a side note this thread makes me giggle like a school girl. Id be surprised if the Orioles finish higher than fourth at all in the next decade.

[bobby jr]

What in the blue hell are you talking about? Ending his chances of ever winning 20? He we on pace for 20 wins before this game, so hes on pace for what 18 or 19 now? He still has a decent shot at 20.

On a side note this thread makes me giggle like a school girl. Id be surprised if the Orioles finish higher than fourth at all in the next decade.

Well it's not impossible, I should have said it made it unlikely he would win 20. And if he doesn't win 20 this year at his age it is doubtful he ever will.

I figure he has 10 or 11 starts left. It is unlikely Mussina will be the winning pitcher of record in seven of those games.

Actually I wouldn't mind if the Yankees win the AL East again this year. Because it will hasten the inevitable, what I think is necessary to save baseball. A hard salary cap like the NFL has.

You know how many Oriole games I have gone to this year? A great big zero. Because it finally has dawned on me, the only way to force change is to boycott the games. If enough small market fans boycott, MLB will eventually be forced to acknowledge there is an uneven playing field, and will put on the salary cap. Even if they have to go through a year long strike to achieve it.

I'm so tired of the AL East standings being written in stone. NY, Boston,. Toronto, Baltimore, Tampa Bay. And highly related to payroll. Year after year.

Thank goodness the NFL season is almost here.

[hunter05]

Yeah, and if Angelos hadn't been foolished and accepted some of those trades for Tejada, the Orioles & their fans might be looking at things differently. I won't argue payroll advantage, I can't really, considering who I root for, but there is blame to be placed on poor FO descisions.

[PinstripePride]

Well the Orioles tough times are over, at least for today!

A 1 hitter against the Yankees. A 1 hitter! The Orioles beat Mussina, and probably ended his chances of ever winning 20 games.

This will be a game I will remember at the end of the year, no matter what else happens.

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

That's really sad, dude.

[bobby jr]

Yeah, and if Angelos hadn't been foolished and accepted some of those trades for Tejada, the Orioles & their fans might be looking at things differently. I won't argue payroll advantage, I can't really, considering who I root for, but there is blame to be placed on poor FO descisions.

Sure, there were some mistakes made. But even with the best decisions the Orioles are at a huge disadvantage.

The biggest problem the Orioles have is being in the same division with the Yankees and their huge payroll. How many years in a row will the Yankees have to make the playoffs before MLB changes the rules? It will be 12 after this year. My guess is it may take 20 years in a row, but hopefully the salary cap will come before then. Plus as smaller market teams attendance continues to shrink, this will add to the pressure.

[hunter05]

How much money has Baltimore recieved because of the Nationals?

[bobby jr]

That's really sad, dude.

Why? There have been certain games which have been turning points. I've heard the Yankees talked about the game when Benitez beaned Posada as a turning point for their franchise, about 10 years ago. You never can tell.

Not that the O's will win the Series this year or next, but I think they can be a winning team very soon. And hopefully MLB will change the rules with the next collective bargaining agreement which will improve their chances further.

[Sam18]

That's really sad, dude.

Not sad, utterly hilarious!!

[ryanm1058123]

i wonder where bobby jr. was after friday's game but he sure showed up after saturday's game!

[PinstripePride]

Why? There have been certain games which have been turning points. I've heard the Yankees talked about the game when Benitez beaned Posada as a turning point for their franchise, about 10 years ago. You never can tell.

Not that the O's will win the Series this year or next, but I think they can be a winning team very soon. And hopefully MLB will change the rules with the next collective bargaining agreement which will improve their chances further.

You've been saying the same thing for 5 years.

[hellonewman]

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

And perhaps, one day, I will make love to Shania Twain.

Why? There have been certain games which have been turning points. I've heard the Yankees talked about the game when Benitez beaned Posada as a turning point for their franchise, about 10 years ago.

It was Tino Martinez, it was 8 years ago, the Yankees were 28-9 at the time and on their way to their 4th straight playoff appearance and 2nd championship in 3 years. Try again.

[Archer1979]

You've been saying the same thing for 5 years.

In his defense, they have been turning points. It's just they turned down.

[Yankeeah]

I hate to say it, but that ball would have been caught. There's no doubt about it.

I, and many, disagree. You can disagree, but you can't say theres no doubt. I've watched the replay dozens of times, and it looks like it would have hit the wall as Tarrasco didn't jump high enough.

[keithf1]

I can't stand the Orioles announcers

[Why Not?]

I have to disagree. Palmer is TERRIBLE on TV too.

I saw a somewhat rotund guy wearing a "Yankees Suck" shirt in the background when the righties were batting. Dude that is so wrong and old - go back to Dundalk and drink your sorrows away...

I'm not judging Palmer's abilities, I'm just saying that he doesn't do radio broadcasts. He only does TV.

Every team has fat, ugly and stupid fans, including New York and Balmer.

[Why Not?]

Yeah, and if Angelos hadn't been foolished and accepted some of those trades for Tejada, the Orioles & their fans might be looking at things differently. I won't argue payroll advantage, I can't really, considering who I root for, but there is blame to be placed on poor FO descisions.

There isn't one sane Orioles fan (which excludes Bobby Jr.) who would disagree with you. The Orioles might have less payroll "wiggle room" than our AL East opponents. But the Orioles suck because of their own actions, not anybody else's.

[YankeePride1967]

The Orioles losing has 100% to do with their incompetency and 0% to do with payroll.

[yanksphan]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...ports-baseball

The window of opportunity is finally open wide enough that the Orioles will have no excuse if they fail to acquire the necessary help to be competitive in the American League East next year.

The announcement on Friday night that the long-running dispute between the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network and Comcast had been settled to the satisfaction of both sides creates the revenue potential that should allow the Orioles to spend what it takes to acquire a power-hitting outfielder and a No. 1 starting pitcher. Now it becomes an issue of front office execution.

So much for the payroll excuse booby jr. I guess next year the rest of the league is on steroids, right?

[bobby jr]

I, and many, disagree. You can disagree, but you can't say theres no doubt. I've watched the replay dozens of times, and it looks like it would have hit the wall as Tarrasco didn't jump high enough.

The ball would have been caught. One only needs to listen to John Miller's broadcast to know it for sure. These aren't his exact words, but pretty close.

"There's a long drive by Jeter. Back to the wall goes Tarrasco, he reaches up and makes the c....NO! A fan reached out and pulled the ball in, and the umpires are calling it a home run!!!! A terrible call......"

It would have been a relatively easy easy catch, Jeter would have been out instead of circling the bases on a "home run", the Orioles would have won that game and many believe that they would have gone on to win the series.

Such is life, but there is an argument that MLB should allow managers at least one "challenge" per game, just like the NFL allows coach's to "challenge". If Davey Johnson could have challenged that call ( and if the replay ump had the guts to make the right call in Yankee stadium, unlike Garcia) , well that play would not have possibly cost the Orioles a trip to the World Series.

[bobby jr]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...ports-baseball



So much for the payroll excuse booby jr. I guess next year the rest of the league is on steroids, right?

Payroll "excuse"? Give me a big major break. The size of a team's payroll directly correlates to their winning percentage. Even with the money the Orioles get from the Nats deal, there is no way the Orioles could match the Yankees payroll over a long term basis.

The Yankees have an unfair advantage, that is why they make the playoffs year after year,that is why there must be a salary cap.

[keithf1]

Payroll "excuse"? Give me a big major break. The size of a team's payroll directly correlates to their winning percentage. Even with the money the Orioles get from the Nats deal, there is no way the Orioles could match the Yankees payroll over a long term basis.

The Yankees have an unfair advantage, that is why they make the playoffs year after year,that is why there must be a salary cap.

Typical

Do some research about how much the Yankees help baseball and the MLB

[Yankeeah]

The ball would have been caught. One only needs to listen to John Miller's broadcast to know it for sure. These aren't his exact words, but pretty close.

"There's a long drive by Jeter. Back to the wall goes Tarrasco, he reaches up and makes the c....NO! A fan reached out and pulled the ball in, and the umpires are calling it a home run!!!! A terrible call......"

It would have been a relatively easy easy catch, Jeter would have been out instead of circling the bases on a "home run", the Orioles would have won that game and many believe that they would have gone on to win the series.

Such is life, but there is an argument that MLB should allow managers at least one "challenge" per game, just like the NFL allows coach's to "challenge". If Davey Johnson could have challenged that call ( and if the replay ump had the guts to make the right call in Yankee stadium, unlike Garcia) , well that play would not have possibly cost the Orioles a trip to the World Series.

So because John Miller thought it was caught means it would have definetly been caught? We've had this argument before and disagree.

It was game one, and it tied the game. The Orioles didn't lose on that call.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Junior is nothing if not willing to repeat the same tired falsehoods for years on end.

[Mark19]

Well it's not impossible, I should have said it made it unlikely he would win 20. And if he doesn't win 20 this year at his age it is doubtful he ever will.

I figure he has 10 or 11 starts left. It is unlikely Mussina will be the winning pitcher of record in seven of those games.

Actually I wouldn't mind if the Yankees win the AL East again this year. Because it will hasten the inevitable, what I think is necessary to save baseball. A hard salary cap like the NFL has.

You know how many Oriole games I have gone to this year? A great big zero. Because it finally has dawned on me, the only way to force change is to boycott the games. If enough small market fans boycott, MLB will eventually be forced to acknowledge there is an uneven playing field, and will put on the salary cap. Even if they have to go through a year long strike to achieve it.

I'm so tired of the AL East standings being written in stone. NY, Boston,. Toronto, Baltimore, Tampa Bay. And highly related to payroll. Year after year.

Thank goodness the NFL season is almost here.

The Yankees aren't the ones who forced your team to spend millions on Sosa, Palmeiro, Millar and Lopez when what you really needed was a couple of top starting pitchers.

The O's dug their own grave, stop making excuses.

[bobby jr]

Typical

Do some research about how much the Yankees help baseball and the MLB

It is true that the Yankees draw well at home and on the road. And they sell a lot of merchandise, a lot of people watch their games on TV, etc.

But weighing against this is the decreased in attendance in smaller market teams like the Orioles and Toronto. Because of the Yankees financial and on the field dominance, fans in Baltimore, Toronto, and Tampa, fans who used to live and die with the games, don't really care very much any longer.

For example, I used to catch every inning I could, when I was growing up. I'd say I listened to or watched over half of the season back then. Now, I don't listen to or watch the games, and I never attend. There is not an even playing field, why should I pretend there is and that the Orioles will ever have a fair chance under the current system.

I'll bet that there is a decreased attendance and major league baseball TV ratings in smaller market teams like Pittsburgh, KC, Baltimore, that outweighs any increased attendance the Yankees , Mets, ando other big market big spenders bring. I've been meaning to research this before the season is over, and I think I might just do that.

[Yankees13]

The size of a team's payroll directly correlates to their winning percentage.

Wasn't that way when the O's had a top 3 payroll spending money on Albert Belle.

[#1PaFan]

Well the Orioles tough times are over, at least for today!

A 1 hitter against the Yankees. A 1 hitter! The Orioles beat Mussina, and probably ended his chances of ever winning 20 games.

This will be a game I will remember at the end of the year, no matter what else happens.

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

I was at this game. It was the 7th largest crowd in Yankee Stadium South history. 49K+. Thirty-five thousand were wearing Yankee gear. Hell, maybe 36 or 37 thousand.

[NelsonMuntz]

Well the Orioles tough times are over, at least for today!

A 1 hitter against the Yankees. A 1 hitter! The Orioles beat Mussina, and probably ended his chances of ever winning 20 games.

This will be a game I will remember at the end of the year, no matter what else happens.

Perhaps one day, this game will be looked upon as a turning point for the Orioles.

And just like that, the tough times are back. Sometimes you make it too easy for us bobby.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASAp...=.jsp&c_id=nyy

"I knew yesterday wasn't going to really have anything to do with today," manager Joe Torre said. "We've been pretty good at bouncing back."

[cupcollector99]

And just like that, the tough times are back. Sometimes you make it too easy for us bobby.
http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASAp...=.jsp&c_id=nyy

But you keep forgetting that if the umpire made the correct call in 96, the Orioles would have won everything and the roles would have been reversed.
It's all Jeffery Maier's fault, it has nothing to do with the bad decisions of the Oriole's management and ownership.

[In Mo I Trust]

This thread just keeps on giving and giving.

[bobby jr]

But you keep forgetting that if the umpire made the correct call in 96, the Orioles would have won everything and the roles would have been reversed.
It's all Jeffery Maier's fault, it has nothing to do with the bad decisions of the Oriole's management and ownership.

An old high school debating trick, taking a legitimate point (that Maier cost the Orioles a key playoff game) and carrying it to a ridiculous extreme (that if not for Maier the O's would have dominated since then). For the purpose of making the legitimate point seem ridiculous.

The problem is payroll and the economics of baseball which have changed since the late 90's.

[bobby jr]

I was at this game. It was the 7th largest crowd in Yankee Stadium South history. 49K+. Thirty-five thousand were wearing Yankee gear. Hell, maybe 36 or 37 thousand.

Great. Goad to hear it. Now who's going to go the Orioles games when Tampa comes to town next week? Or Toronto?

That is the problem with many Yankee fans. You don't see the forest for the trees. You think as long as the Yankees are doing well and drawing well at home and on the road, all is fine.

But the reality is that MLB is dying. The World Series ratings are very poor compared to what they used to be. The attendance is down in the smaller markets, teams which used to draw well, like KC and Baltimore. Back when we had pennant winning teams, the attendance would spike for years afterwards.

The reduction in attendance in the smaller market outweighs any increase in attendance the Yankees enjoy due to their continued domination (caused by their revenue advantages)

I've heard and read the same thing so often from smaller market teams fans. "The playing field is not equal. And I'm not going to the games any longer."

[bobby jr]

Here's an article that shows if you look at the history of baseball, lack of fair competition in MLB leads to lower attendance. Exactly what I have postulated.



http://jse.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/2/2/145


Competitive Balance and Attendance: The Case of Major League Baseball

"...the previously unexplored link between aggregate attendance and league competitive balance is examined. This investigation suggests that a relationship between these factors does indeed exist, whether one explores the relationship strictly across time or with the use of a panel data set. "