The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Little Big Sheff]

Bro, let me introduce you to Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright...

The Yankees payroll is a HUGE advantage.

Replaced by Aaron Small, Shawn Chacon, and Al Leiter, three pitchers so expensive that no other team could pick them up, you are right.

[chanman7483]

BTW, by the time roberts got injured, the season had been oover for the O's for many months...

[jimmyclark]

How much money does Angelos get from his stadium, his share of the Attorney General's tobacco settlement ($1 billion) and money from the Nationals for invading his territory (did the Senators get any money when the St Louis Browns moved to Baltimore 50 years ago??). Meanwhile Billy Beane has 7 years in a row averaging 90 wins.
Angelos has spent money of Lopez and Tejada. But he and his kids think they know it all and smart front office people won't work for him. Why did he fire Davey Johnson..because he had fined players give their money to a charity Mrs Johnson ran? How stupid was that??

[Espinosa's Glasses]

And after all of that... Still not worried

[StaceyRosie]

Peter Angelos complaining that he can't compete with other teams' payroll? The problem isn't money, the problem is spending it on sh*theads like Sammy Sosa and Sidney Ponson. Twice.

The most formidable obstacle to O's success can be found in Angelos' mirror.

Albert Belle says hi.

I just had to quote you guys. Because you're all right "on the money"

[Archer1979]

Hold on a sec.

Let me run this through my BS to English translator...

"There is a formidable challenge because of the size of their payrolls," Angelos said about the Yankees and Red Sox. "We would like to compete with them. We lost a couple of very close games to Boston and New York this week, and I think if we would have had our first-rate second baseman [Brian Roberts], 40 percent of those games would have been a victory, or perhaps even higher...

The Orioles are expected to be active in free agency and Angelos said he does not foresee trouble acquiring attractive free agents. In the past few years, Baltimore has been passed over by premium players for more fruitful contract offers, while others have noted the Orioles' lack of recent success and also the unenviable task of overcoming Boston and New York.

"We appreciate the fans' support [during the tough times]," he said. "And we're going to demonstrate our appreciation by winning. I have never heard of a player who refused to come to Baltimore to play when he's been offered a competitive contract. Baltimore is a great baseball town, with great fans, a beautiful ballpark and a good organization. We will get the players necessary to be successful."

Here goes:

"Wait 'til next year."

[Saxmania]

Of course Angelos has to spend money to get the players to be successful. What is the alternative, to stand on principle and challenge KC for the worst record in the AL? He is simply fighting fire with fire.

Actually, he's fighting fire with marshmallows.

But Peter Angelos would prefer a level playing field. He has said as much in the past, "Let's have total revenue sharing then see where the Yankees and Orioles finish", or words to that effect. Angelos knows the Yankees payroll (currently about 3 times that of the O's) is a huge advantage.

Which is why throwing money at aging, expensive veterans just might not be the solution. Instead, it might be a good idea to build from within, like Minnesota and Cleveland and Oakland have done. Those teams can compete with New York and Boston despite much lower payrolls, because they avoid paying ineffective players just to appear to be competing. Instead, they bite the bullet and rebuild.

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Now, I'll agree that when New York and Boston make payroll mistakes, it's easier for them to escape them. All the more reason to try something different, rather than emulating their strategy! If you pitch to a hitter who keeps homering off your fastball, you can either keep pumping fastballs in there and whine about the matchup being unfair and tell the umpire to raise the mound - or you can try a different pitch.

Myself, I would prefer a NFL style salary cap. Really this is inevitable, as the big market-money teams continue to dominate, the small market owners are growing more and more unhappy. They are the growing majority of the owners, and either this upcoming contract or the next one, baseball will be shut down until the salary cap is imposed.

This is simply factually untrue:

1) The period following free agency has seen the greatest parity in MLB's history. Fact.

2) This year has seen a high level of competition in almost every division. In the AL in particular, New York and Boston have looked very beatable, and there's a good chance that Cleveland, Chicago, and Anaheim will all have better records than them. Oakland and Minnesota were also popular picks for division titles. Go figure. In the NL, check out the Brewers and the Nationals. Not bad, huh?

3) There's already been indications that the current CBA will be re-upped as is when it expires - apparently, owners are very happy with the deal. I'll bet the Nationals sell for a lot. Small-market owners aren't getting more unhappy. In fact, with attendance up around the league, and neither the Yankees or the Red Sox blowing away the competition, I bet they're delighted.

Bobby, if small-market owners can't compete, why aren't their franchises for sale? Why do they keep going instead of selling to a Roman Abramovich who'll explode the payroll? Because they know that smart beats rich, every time - and that New York and Boston haven't been very smart this year.

But getting back on topic, as an Oriole fans I am relieved that Angelos has chosen this time in Orioles history to speak out in this manner, to reassure the fans, to promise that better times are coming starting next year. He would not have said what he did, then let the Orioles go down the tubes in 2006.

But he did last year. And the year before. And the year before . . . bobby, what will it take to convince you that Angelos is one of the worst owners in the game today? Hell, even Pohlad's cack-handed management resulted in a few playoff berths for the Twins, plus some great young pitchers in Santana, Liriano, and Silva. With Selig out of the Brewers, Angelos may just be the worst owner in baseball.

Seriously, I want a quantitative form of measurement. How much worse do the Orioles have to get before you admit that Angelos is the problem, not the solution?

His words are so strong, so clear, that Peter Angelos has put his reputation on the line here. The Orioles will be a vastly improved team next year.

Peter Angelos' reputation? Yes, I've got that on a shelf here next to Paris Hilton's dignity, Michael Jackson's respectability, and Michael Brown's expertise. Angelos wants seats filled and customers billed - winning baseball doesn't factor in to it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[CTSoxFan]

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Saxmania, two thumbs way up for everything you wrote. And to expand on the above a little bit, that rebuilding process you've referenced has included not only good drafting, but deft trading (cf. the Indians practically re-creating their minor league system from scratch with the Bartolo Colon trade, and the A's decision to deal Mulder and Hudson a year early instead of a year too late). Both of those deals made the A's and Indians contenders this year, and set them up nicely for the next decade or so.

[bobby jr]

Actually, he's fighting fire with marshmallows.



Which is why throwing money at aging, expensive veterans just might not be the solution. Instead, it might be a good idea to build from within, like Minnesota and Cleveland and Oakland have done. Those teams can compete with New York and Boston despite much lower payrolls, because they avoid paying ineffective players just to appear to be competing. Instead, they bite the bullet and rebuild.

In the case of the Twins, that's meant Santana, Morneau, Mauer, and (soon) Liriano. In Cleveland, it's Hafner and Sizemore and Martinez and company. In Oakland? Blanton, Harden, Haren, Crosby. And while these players were coming up, how many aging veterans were soaking up dollars? Almost none. Oakland's overpaying Kendall and Minnesota probably need to say goodbye to Hunter, but other than that the franchises have been pretty ruthless about cutting out the deadwood.

Now, I'll agree that when New York and Boston make payroll mistakes, it's easier for them to escape them. All the more reason to try something different, rather than emulating their strategy! If you pitch to a hitter who keeps homering off your fastball, you can either keep pumping fastballs in there and whine about the matchup being unfair and tell the umpire to raise the mound - or you can try a different pitch.



This is simply factually untrue:

1) The period following free agency has seen the greatest parity in MLB's history. Fact.

2) This year has seen a high level of competition in almost every division. In the AL in particular, New York and Boston have looked very beatable, and there's a good chance that Cleveland, Chicago, and Anaheim will all have better records than them. Oakland and Minnesota were also popular picks for division titles. Go figure. In the NL, check out the Brewers and the Nationals. Not bad, huh?

3) There's already been indications that the current CBA will be re-upped as is when it expires - apparently, owners are very happy with the deal. I'll bet the Nationals sell for a lot. Small-market owners aren't getting more unhappy. In fact, with attendance up around the league, and neither the Yankees or the Red Sox blowing away the competition, I bet they're delighted.

Bobby, if small-market owners can't compete, why aren't their franchises for sale? Why do they keep going instead of selling to a Roman Abramovich who'll explode the payroll? Because they know that smart beats rich, every time - and that New York and Boston haven't been very smart this year.



But he did last year. And the year before. And the year before . . . bobby, what will it take to convince you that Angelos is one of the worst owners in the game today? Hell, even Pohlad's cack-handed management resulted in a few playoff berths for the Twins, plus some great young pitchers in Santana, Liriano, and Silva. With Selig out of the Brewers, Angelos may just be the worst owner in baseball.

Seriously, I want a quantitative form of measurement. How much worse do the Orioles have to get before you admit that Angelos is the problem, not the solution?



Peter Angelos' reputation? Yes, I've got that on a shelf here next to Paris Hilton's dignity, Michael Jackson's respectability, and Michael Brown's expertise. Angelos wants seats filled and customers billed - winning baseball doesn't factor in to it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I don't have much time to reply right now, but just let me say that I am not making up the bit about the smaller market owners growing more and more unhappy with the Yankees domination, and they will take some action to try to change the equation. And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap. I read this rather recently, within the last year.

Remember these owners are powerful and rich men every one of them, and they are not happy having to set back and watch the Yankees go into the playoffs for 11 years in a row (assuming they make it this year) due in large part to their financial advantages, while their teams don't have a realitic shot.

This situation simply cannot continue, common sense says it will end.

[GraniteYankee]

And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap.

They will have to do it over the union's dead bodies, which is the only way it would occur.

[NewOrioleWork]

The Orioles had some tough injury breaks this year, and that always hurts a team. But hearing Angelos talk about making his team successful (and hearing a baltimore fan express optimism over that) is really most amusing.

As long as you understand that is just *a* Orioles fan; and one who does not represent most of O's fandom (I swear sometimes people here think bj is some grand-ultimate ambassador of the Orioles who represents how we actually think and feel. No idea why you guys even reply to him anymore).

To say the least, the majority of O's fandom is skeptical.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25690
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25725
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25675
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37467
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37293
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Very few people in Baltimore believe in Peter Angelos, or the Baltimore Orioles for that matter.

--NOW

[rkh5donkey]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Is that guy's name really Peter Schmuck?

[NewOrioleWork]

Is that guy's name really Peter Schmuck?

Yeah, I know, right?

He's a pretty good columnist though. (Appropriately enough for a guy with the last name "Schmuck" he has a good sense of humor).

Later,
NOW

[Kulish29]

Myself, I would prefer a NFL style salary cap. Really this is inevitable, as the big market-money teams continue to dominate, the small market owners are growing more and more unhappy. They are the growing majority of the owners, and either this upcoming contract or the next one, baseball will be shut down until the salary cap is imposed.

You can keep dreaming of that, because it's not going to happen.

[NelsonMuntz]

As long as you understand that is just *a* Orioles fan; and one who does not represent most of O's fandom (I swear sometimes people here think bj is some grand-ultimate ambassador of the Orioles who represents how we actually think and feel. No idea why you guys even reply to him anymore).

To say the least, the majority of O's fandom is skeptical.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25690
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25725
http://www.orioleshangout.com/forums...ad.php?t=25675
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37467
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37293
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/b...rts-columnists

Very few people in Baltimore believe in Peter Angelos, or the Baltimore Orioles for that matter.

--NOW

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

[CTSoxFan]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

Ooooooooohhhh...they must have LOVED "Fun Bobby" on that site this summer.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

But Peter Angelos would prefer a level playing field. He has said as much in the past, "Let's have total revenue sharing then see where the Yankees and Orioles finish", or words to that effect. .

Unfortunatly, he doesn't believe in a level playing field in his competition with the nationals down the road. His TV agreement will permanently cripple their ability to compete in their division. Would the "revenue sharing" you refer to involve sharing more of the revenue that th Nats generate with the team that earned it?

This situation simply cannot continue, common sense says it will end.

Baseball has weathered a steroids scandal, and will have record attendance numbers again. About half the teams were in playoff contention with a month to go. The situation is not as desperate as you portray.

He's a pretty good columnist though. (Appropriately enough for a guy with the last name "Schmuck" he has a good sense of humor).

Somehow, a local radio guy here in LA (Fred Rogan) gets Schmuck as a guest about every other week. For a newspaper guy, he has a great sense of humor, and appears to be very knowlegeable about the game in general, not just the AL East and the O's.

[Saxmania]

I don't have much time to reply right now, but just let me say that I am not making up the bit about the smaller market owners growing more and more unhappy with the Yankees domination, and they will take some action to try to change the equation. And that the majority of owners are leaning towards an eventual salary cap. I read this rather recently, within the last year.

Then I'd really like a source or two, if it's all the same to you, because this seems to contradict you:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05221/550813.stm

The Pittsburgh GM would like stronger revenue sharing, but the interviewer states that the majority of owners see a salary cap as unrealistic, and the GM does not contradict him. In fact, he moves, unprompted, to discuss other ways of levelling the playing field without using a salary cap.

It's not happening, bobby. Let it go. Sidney Ponson has a better chance of hiding behind Kate Moss.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[bobby jr]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

That is simply not true. The problem with the O's forum is there are too many "anti-Oriole" fans there, and they don't want anything positive written about the Orioles.

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

[bobby jr]

Then I'd really like a source or two, if it's all the same to you, because this seems to contradict you:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05221/550813.stm

The Pittsburgh GM would like stronger revenue sharing, but the interviewer states that the majority of owners see a salary cap as unrealistic, and the GM does not contradict him. In fact, he moves, unprompted, to discuss other ways of levelling the playing field without using a salary cap.

It's not happening, bobby. Let it go. Sidney Ponson has a better chance of hiding behind Kate Moss.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was. Next time I see something about the owners wanting a salary cap I'll post it here with the link.

[JDPNYY]

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was. Next time I see something about the owners wanting a salary cap I'll post it here with the link.

Hey bobby... I was at Camden Yards last night.... Lot's of Yankee fans there, yelling, screaming, chanting. Once in a while a fan wearing orange had something to say, but those instances were quickly drowned out by Yankee fans.

I think you lied to me.

[Saxmania]

It's been too long since I saw the article I can't recall where it was.

In fact, bobby, I think you might have seen that article in 2001. That would explain a lot.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[ring403]

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

I'd like to see a list of the qualifications for being "the typical Orioles fan".

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

That's unfortunate for the typical Orioles' fan. A whole team's worth of fans wholly unable to acknowledge facts and reality.

[bobby jr]

That's unfortunate for the typical Orioles' fan. A whole team's worth of fans wholly unable to acknowledge facts and reality.

In point of fact the Sun's Orioles forum is dominated by Angelos hating posters who favor the Yankees over the Orioles. This is an unfortunate situation there are a few good Oriole fans who post there but they are in the minority.

I get along much better on the Red Sox forum than I do on the Orioles forum. although they don't really share my ideas about the need for a salary cap. In point of fact the Red Sox also come out ahead in the present flawed system, but not as far ahead as the Yankees do.

But when you go to the Orioles games, there you meet the true fans. And they do NOT hate Peter Angelos or believe that the Orioles will always finish runner up to the Yankees and Red Sox. Nor do they believe the present situation is fair, with the domination by the rich teams in MLB.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

You're joking, right? You think intoning Kevin Brown and Jaret Wright is either a.) proof that payroll provides an advantage or b.) disproves my point that the problem isn't spending money, it's spending money wisely?

I think you need to go back and either reread what I said or rethink what it is you're trying to say.

No, I'm not joking. I'll readily admit that having a $208 million payroll is a huge advantage and allows the organization to cover up a lot of mistakes. Maybe you're just in denial?

[BobbyMurcerFan]

You bring up the Yankee payroll a lot I notice, even in threads where it's not even the topic, i.e. my "scheduling" thread. Somehow you squeeze it into the conversation. I have two sincere questions: Do you resent the Yankee payroll? Also, what is your feeling about the Sox payroll?

No I don't resent the Yankees payroll and I don't want a salary cap in baseball. I do agree w/ revenue sharing as it now stands. I do see the Yankees payroll as a HUGE advantage for the organization.

I also believe the Red Sox's payroll gives them a HUGE advantage over teams w/ significantly lower payrolls.

[BronxByTheBay]

No, I'm not joking. I'll readily admit that having a $208 million payroll is a huge advantage and allows the organization to cover up a lot of mistakes.

Yeah, cause CF, our bench, and middle relief worked out so well this season. Thank God for a huge payroll.

That icon fits you perfectly - you don't have a clue.

[Archer1979]

I'd like to see a list of the qualifications for being "the typical Orioles fan".

I'm pretty sure one of the physical requirements is perpetually bruised testicles.

http://www.nearlygood.com/video/stopballkicking.html

[CTSoxFan]

But when you go to the Orioles games, there you meet the true fans. And they do NOT hate Peter Angelos or believe that the Orioles will always finish runner up to the Yankees and Red Sox. Nor do they believe the present situation is fair, with the domination by the rich teams in MLB.

I can believe this to some degree. Red Sox fans used to love Tom Yawkey when he was alive. The press would write one puff piece after another about him, and he was adored by all who thought they knew him.

Of course, once he had been planted for a decade or so, the truth gradually emerged that he was an inveterate racist whose practice of not signing black ballplayers was probably the single most important factor in making them also-rans for so many decades.

Perhaps it won't take the death of Peter Angelos for Orioles fans to realize what a truly bad owner he is.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

Yeah, cause CF, our bench, and middle relief worked out so well this season. Thank God for a huge payroll.




That icon fits you perfectly - you don't have a clue.

So true. Money doesn't help build a team or cover up mistakes. I must have forgot that the Yankees spend so much money just to keep the Players Assoication happy.

My bad .

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

But when you go to the Orioles games, there you meet the true fans. And they do NOT hate Peter Angelos

Well as I said, that's unfortunate for Orioles fans. Any reasonable observer knows that Angelos is a horrible owner who cripples his team. Any fan like you who refuses to see that is really deluding themselves.

[bobby jr]

The Orioles have made the playoffs 2 of the last 10 years under Angelos that is better than a lot of teams and I still believe he can get them in again at least one more time under his ownership. I think he wants to make them winners before he sells the franchise, so he is committed and determined and will even spend his own money starting next year if necessary.

[WHIP]

When will you understand. He doesn't give a sh!t about the franchise.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

The Orioles have made the playoffs 2 of the last 10 years under Angelos that is better than a lot of teams

Actually, when you factor in their payroll, their onfield performance is much, much worse than almost every team in the league. They're really quite a disaster. But it's always most amusing reading your opinion of their management.

[NelsonMuntz]

In point of fact the Sun's Orioles forum is dominated by Angelos hating posters who favor the Yankees over the Orioles. This is an unfortunate situation there are a few good Oriole fans who post there but they are in the minority.

Translation = the Sun's Orioles forum is dominated by rational Orioles fans who realize that the Orioles will never finish higher than the Yankees as long as Peter "Greedy" Angelos is running the show.

[BronxByTheBay]

So true. Money doesn't help build a team or cover up mistakes. I must have forgot that the Yankees spend so much money just to keep the Players Assoication happy.

My bad .

When you can explain to me why our $200 million payroll hasn't given us a more balanced lineup or deeper pen, I'll start taking you seriously.

[BronxByTheBay]

The Orioles have made the playoffs 2 of the last 10 years under Angelos that is better than a lot of teams

It's because of Baltimore's unfair payroll advantage.

[YankyDave]

Most Orioles fans are fed up with Peter Angelos. Most Orioles fans are sick and tired of being screwed. Most Orioles fans know that 8 straight losing seasons is the fault of the greedy greek. Most Orioles fans are not delusional.

[rivera,s cutter]

angelos is the worst owner in baseball,he has destroyed that once great franchise with his unprofessionalism

[Elevation]

That is simply not true. The problem with the O's forum is there are too many "anti-Oriole" fans there, and they don't want anything positive written about the Orioles.

The Baltimore Suns Orioles forum in no way represents the thoughts of the typical Baltimore Orioles fan. My views are much closer to that reality.

Oh Please!

You would rather see the Yankees lose, then the Orioles win.

[Slidemaster]

FOR ALL WHO THINK THAT BOBBY REPRESENTS THE AVERAGE ORIOLE FAN, I DIRECT YOU TO THIS COLUMN.

O's fans no longer buying what Angelos is selling
Rick Maese
Originally published Sep 30, 2005

Midnight was within an arm's reach. The bags were packed, and the players cleared out of the Orioles' clubhouse. Outside, even the few fans who stayed until the very end had filed out of the ballpark for the final time.
The team had left. The fan base had left. And what exactly was everyone left with? Certainly not hope.
The three remaining games at Tampa Bay are just formalities. This season is over.
Wait till next year, right? Not exactly.
Much of the optimism was doused this week, and it took only five words.
"It is not for sale," Orioles owner Peter Angelos said of his team in an interview with The Sun. The dollar signs will change too much in the next couple of years for a savvy businessman like Angelos to let go of the team.
For many in Charm City, it's the worst fear realized. Forget a new general manager, a new left-handed pitcher in the bullpen or a new manager. Many fans hoped change would start at the very top. Rumors had swirled the past couple of weeks that a group including Cal Ripken might be putting together an offer.
"The answer is, 'No,'" Angelos said.
I've been in town fewer than two months. I have repeatedly told fans I would withhold judgment on Angelos. Put simply, though, I've been blown away by the city's disgust with this team's ownership.
"It appears that there is no future for the franchise at all," one reader e-mailed me. "It's a very sad situation because the 'Baltimore Orioles' was once a proud name, which is about to disappear."
Another wrote: "[T]here is only one fix to this ... and that is to boycott him at the turnstiles. The fans in Baltimore do not deserve this as they have been very loyal to the Orioles."
Here's a third: "After years of torture, I try not to care too much since it's 'only a game,' but fans know it's more than a game. It's about civic identity and family traditions. The O's are dragging both into the gutter."
It stings even an outsider to hear about the hurt. It's easy to trace it to the top.
The Orioles have become a national joke. The Sporting News, ESPN, The New York Times - they're all having a big laugh at the Orioles' expense.
Check out what William Rhoden, the venerable Times columnist, wrote last week: "While Commissioner Bud Selig is investigating steroids and vitamin B-12, he should also investigate the Baltimore Orioles - for consumer fraud."
Ouch.
There's a certain feel around this organization. It's no longer a team that's suffering through a couple of tough seasons. The Orioles are engulfed by a culture of losing. Justified or not, a collective finger is aimed at Angelos.
The owner won't say this is the worst season the team has experienced. Whether he's being naive or protective, he doesn't really have to say it. But we know it.
Hearts are still tied to every hiccup that comes out of the brick warehouse. Box scores look like train wrecks. Internet message boards have turned into emotional support groups. And the ballpark has been a nightly interment.
Faith has been shaken. We can't pin it solely on the losing or the steroid controversy or Sammy or Sidney. It's the lack of organizational direction. It starts and stops with Angelos.
Since Angelos came on board in 1993, the Orioles have had seven managers and six general managers. Angelos is the one name that threads through the losing.
It's tough to speculate on what changes might loom. Logic would lead you to think that if Sam Perlozzo isn't given the post on a permanent basis next week, the team might wait until after the World Series in early November to unveil a different name - and possibly a new general manager.
It would be a mistake to wait that long. A new general manager would need time to hire his own manager. And time is not a luxury the team can afford.
In 2002, Angelos waited until December to name Jim Beattie and Mike Flanagan as general managers. Angelos should have learned then that the free-agent market doesn't stand still while the Orioles study tea leaves.
Player agents and team executives have already begun to map out their offseason strategies. Who exactly is going to answer the phone at the Orioles' warehouse if Scott Boras calls? The team mascot?
Angelos has known since at least early August that he'd have to make these hires. He cannot be slow on the trigger again, not as the Orioles enter an offseason that requires such a sweeping overhaul.
Midnight is within an arm's reach. The 2005 season was tucked in weeks ago. The lights are out now.
Orioles fans deserve to wake up to good news. Many of them just don't know if that's possible with Angelos at the helm.

This guy is a new columnist at the Baltimore Sun, and he's absolutely great.

Orioles fans are sick of this ownership, and for Bobby to even pretend to be representative of the average O's fan is insulting and completely untrue.

[heyabbott]

The Orioles have made the playoffs 2 of the last 10 years under Angelos that is better than a lot of teams and I still believe he can get them in again at least one more time under his ownership. I think he wants to make them winners before he sells the franchise, so he is committed and determined and will even spend his own money starting next year if necessary.

2 0f 10 years, is true, 0 for 8 years is more accurate. 0 world series games played in 22 years is accurate as well. With Angelos as an owner, the Orioles have lost more games than they have won. He has not shown a commitment to winning. There is no proof he wants to win, there is no evidence that he cares about on field performance more than generating a personal profit.

As distinguished national writers have written, peter angelos has instilled a culture of losing ang failure in Baltimore.

BTW, the big bombshell surrounding steroids was Miggy Tejada shooting needles into steroids abuser Palmeroid. NO YANKEES HAVE TESTED POSITIVE

Go Yanks 10 playoff appearances in a row.

[YankyDave]

FOR ALL WHO THINK THAT BOBBY REPRESENTS THE AVERAGE ORIOLE FAN, I DIRECT YOU TO THIS COLUMN.

Everyone please use Slide as your example when wondering the mindset of an O's fan.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

When you can explain to me why our $200 million payroll hasn't given us a more balanced lineup or deeper pen, I'll start taking you seriously.

A yankee fan denying that the payroll is a huge advantage is on par with bobby when it comes to humor.

[BronxByTheBay]

A yankee fan denying that the payroll is a huge advantage is on par with bobby when it comes to humor.

A Yankee fan assuming that payroll is the only difference between winning and losing is on a par with "bobby" when it comes to logic.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

When you can explain to me why our $200 million payroll hasn't given us a more balanced lineup or deeper pen, I'll start taking you seriously.

I was going to try to write some clever response, but WE JUST WON THE DIVISION! CONGRATS buddy!!!

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

A Yankee fan assuming that payroll is the only difference between winning and losing is on a par with "bobby" when it comes to logic.

Non-denial denial. Unsurprising.

[Dooley Womack]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

That's hilarious, though it doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Vin]

I know, I've been on that Baltimore Sun forum. Most of the O's fans are pretty reasonable, and bobbyjr is actually ridiculed more cruelly on that forum than he is on this one if you can believe it. His nickname is "the jinx" because every year he shoots his mouth off after the first Orioles win streak and without fail the Orioles go into a tailspin.

You're right, thanks for the laughs: http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/sh...ad.php?t=37124