The Baltimore Orioles Thread (merged)

[Saxmania]

Peter Angelos has done a lot for the Orioles. He is a local boy made good, went to high school in Highlandtown (in Baltimore City). Peter Angelos is one of the most respected lawyers in the country. No question about his intellectual ability.

But you have to go to non-baseball activities to prove it. With good reason: his management of the Orioles has been incompetent.

And as for his tenure as Orioles owner, he got the team into two consecutive playoffs in 96-97, before that I believe there was a 13 year drought before Angelos took over as owner and turned things around. If breaks (and a couple of blown calls) had gone the Orioles way, they could easily have won the World Series at least one of the playoff years.

So that was a decade ago. Since then, 9 consecutive losing seasons. Not that teams don't have to rebuild, but looking around the league, the Marlins have been broken down, rebuilt into a championship team, and broken down again since the last time the Orioles were in the playoffs.

Put another way: of all the teams in MLB, only Tampa Bay and Pittsburgh have gone longer without a winning season (assuming Detroit finishes over .500 this year, which seems likely). Both teams have a fraction of Baltimore's resources - even 'no-hopers' Florida, Kansas City, Colorado, and Cleveland have had winning seasons recently. If payroll is so vital, certainly it's a stunning indictment of Orioles management - that they've been less successful than KC despite twice the resources.

What's Angelos been doing since 1997?

I think Peter Angelos can turn the O's franchise around. Although I disagree with the present economic system in MLB, you have to fight fire with fire at times. So the Orioles are now getting a lot of money because of the Nats TV deal and I am confident Angelos will pump that money back into the team.

All evidence to the contrary.

Over the last decade, Angelos has done more to damage his team than pretty much any other owner with the possible exception of Loria and Pohlad (and Pohlad's team has succeeded in spite of him). The fact that he needs to extort money out of the Nationals to even begin to think about building a team that can win as many as it loses is a dramatic demonstration of how incompetent he appears to be.

Orioles fans deserve better than Angelos. Hell, anyone who watches baseball deserves better than Angelos.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[bobby jr]

Angelos isn't "extorting money" from the Nats. He is receiving fair and just compensation for the fact that the Expos were relocated in the Orioles back yard, 30 miles away. If New York had been given the Expos I'll bet Steinbrenner would have wanted some compensasation too.

Only it is worse for Baltimore because the area has historically not supported two teams well. Back when the Senators were here neither team drew well in the 60's and early 70's.

Plus the Orioles are hurt by losing TV viewers to the Nats. So Angelos deserved what he got. Hopefully he will put every cent back into the team.

[Saxmania]

In other words: Angelos is scared of competition, because a team doing well nearby would highlight just how poorly he's run the team. Baltimore doesn't have a god-given right to Washington's baseball fans.

Angelos doesn't 'deserve' compensation for anything. If another business doing what my company does moves in next door, my company doesn't get compensation for it. Steinbrenner might want compensation had the Expos moved next door, but he would have been wrong too.

So what you appear to be stating was that when the Orioles didn't have competition nearby, they couldn't compete. Only when they were subsidised by competitors can they have a chance of spending enough money to compete (despite the fact that other, less-well-bankrolled teams are doing fine).

The conclusion? Angelos must be incompetent. What other word can you use to describe an owner who can only make his franchise come close to succeeding on the back of other teams' fans?

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Jersey Yankee]

Hey, bobby jr:

Since Sam Perlozzo knew Leo Mazzone, which is how he'd gotten him from the Braves, how come you guys are giving up 10 runs to Boston? I mean, why do you need such a top pitch coach when your team's pitching is so poor?

Salary-related, perhaps?

In other words: Angelos is scared of competition, because a team doing well nearby would highlight just how poorly he's run the team. Baltimore doesn't have a god-given right to Washington's baseball fans.

I seem to remember one certain AL East team doing quite well in the '40s and '50s with two NL teams. In fact, they'd both played within the same city. One in Manhattan, and the other in Brooklyn.

Any excuses for this, Bobby?

[Jersey Yankee]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make

That simply because you have good numbers against Ortiz doesn't mean he won't get you.

[YankeePride1967]

Angelos isn't "extorting money" from the Nats. He is receiving fair and just compensation for the fact that the Expos were relocated in the Orioles back yard, 30 miles away. If New York had been given the Expos I'll bet Steinbrenner would have wanted some compensasation too.

Only it is worse for Baltimore because the area has historically not supported two teams well. Back when the Senators were here neither team drew well in the 60's and early 70's.

Plus the Orioles are hurt by losing TV viewers to the Nats. So Angelos deserved what he got. Hopefully he will put every cent back into the team.

And for the first time, spend that money wisely.

[Jersey Yankee]

And for the first time, spend that money wisely.

A decent pair of arms to avoid 11-9 losses may help.

[nj-monarch]

Angelos isn't "extorting money" from the Nats. He is receiving fair and just compensation for the fact that the Expos were relocated in the Orioles back yard, 30 miles away. If New York had been given the Expos I'll bet Steinbrenner would have wanted some compensasation too.

Only it is worse for Baltimore because the area has historically not supported two teams well. Back when the Senators were here neither team drew well in the 60's and early 70's.

Plus the Orioles are hurt by losing TV viewers to the Nats. So Angelos deserved what he got. Hopefully he will put every cent back into the team.

You are aware that the NY market already has a NL franchise, right? Check and see what compensation the Yankees received when the Mets came into existence.

[bostonyankeefan]

Hey, Bobby. I see that Sam Perlozzo was on his game tonight. How can you bring in Bruce Chen to face Ortiz? Then after walking him, Manny singles home the winning run?

Gee, was that payroll-related also?

Sam Perlozzo should be fired. The O's are like the walking dead. They are a pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team.

[MelmoandMiggy]

Leo Mazzone (and by extension Perlozzo) need to be given another year, at least. This is a young pitching staff that has shown glimpses of being very good, but you can't expect Mazzone to walk into the clubhouse and immediately be a cure-all. He was the Braves' pitching coach in 1990 when they finished last.

[bobby jr]

Sam Perlozzo should be fired. The O's are like the walking dead. They are a pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team.

This sounds like the kind of statement that made me quit the Orioles board last fall. I was just so tired of the overstated negatives, the doom and gloom brigade which dominated that forum.

The Orioles are not a "pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team". This makes it sound like they have set the record for losses in a season, breaking the record of the 1962 Mets. The Orioles are best described right now as a mediocre MLB team, but one which can beat any other team and knock them out of the race, a dangerous team for the stretch drive.

And the best is yet to come! I am confident the Orioles will be rising, as a matter of fact I expect next year to break their string of sub .500 years. You can bank on that.

[nj-monarch]

This sounds like the kind of statement that made me quit the Orioles board last fall. I was just so tired of the overstated negatives, the doom and gloom brigade which dominated that forum.

The Orioles are not a "pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team". This makes it sound like they have set the record for losses in a season, breaking the record of the 1962 Mets. The Orioles are best described right now as a mediocre MLB team, but one which can beat any other team and knock them out of the race, a dangerous team for the stretch drive.

And the best is yet to come! I am confident the Orioles will be rising, as a matter of fact I expect next year to break their string of sub .500 years. You can bank on that.

You know...this is like deja vu, all over again. Where have I heard this before? Oh wait...here it is...

As an Oriole fan, this has been a tough year. But I am greatly encouraged by the statement that Peter Angelos put out yesterday. Here is the link and a couple of paragraphs, but it is worth reading the full article.

I am glad Mr. Angelos has spoken out and promised a bright future, and this was definitely needed at this time in the history of the Baltimore Orioles.



http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/a...=.jsp&c_id=mlb


"There is a formidable challenge because of the size of their payrolls," Angelos said about the Yankees and Red Sox. "We would like to compete with them. We lost a couple of very close games to Boston and New York this week, and I think if we would have had our first-rate second baseman [Brian Roberts], 40 percent of those games would have been a victory, or perhaps even higher...

The Orioles are expected to be active in free agency and Angelos said he does not foresee trouble acquiring attractive free agents. In the past few years, Baltimore has been passed over by premium players for more fruitful contract offers, while others have noted the Orioles' lack of recent success and also the unenviable task of overcoming Boston and New York.

"We appreciate the fans' support [during the tough times]," he said. "And we're going to demonstrate our appreciation by winning. I have never heard of a player who refused to come to Baltimore to play when he's been offered a competitive contract. Baltimore is a great baseball town, with great fans, a beautiful ballpark and a good organization. We will get the players necessary to be successful."

Not a year to the day, but pretty darn close.

[Saxmania]

And the best is yet to come!

Well, it couldn't get much worse.

I am confident the Orioles will be rising, as a matter of fact I expect next year to break their string of sub .500 years. You can bank on that.

Okay, bobby, honest to god now. Doesn't the fact that the Orioles have the third-longest active stretch of sub-.500 seasons in MLB (behind Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay) indicate that Peter Angelos has done an appalling job, including during many years when Baltimore had a stranglehold on Washington's fans? If not, why not?

Bear in mind when you answer that 'laughing-stock' franchises with far less money have much shorter streaks (or none at all). Kansas City, Minnesota, Cincinnati, Chicago Cubs . . .

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

The Orioles are best described right now as a mediocre MLB team, but one which can beat any other team and knock them out of the race, a dangerous team for the stretch drive.

Wow, just wow.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

The Devil Rays are the team that plays spoiler. I have to admit it must be sort of fun to be playing hard just to ruin other team's seasons. The Orioles just pack it in and roll over and die most of the time.

[burke615-RSN]

The Orioles are not a "pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team". This makes it sound like they have set the record for losses in a season, breaking the record of the 1962 Mets. The Orioles are best described right now as a mediocre MLB team, but one which can beat any other team and knock them out of the race, a dangerous team for the stretch drive.

Well, they are only better than KC, TB, Pittsburgh, and the Cubbies (by win %age.)

While "any team on any given day" is a truism, to be included in that company strikes me as pretty pathetic.

[cupcollector99]

The Devil Rays are the team that plays spoiler. I have to admit it must be sort of fun to be playing hard just to ruin other team's seasons. The Orioles just pack it in and roll over and die most of the time.

I have a feeling that they'll play like they care against NY versus the choke job and ankle grabbing they did this past weekend.

[keithf1]

Orioles 2007 AL East Division Champions

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Orioles 2007 AL East Division Champions

Have the teams in the al east decided to do a bowling tournament for 07?

[ny]

And the best is yet to come! I am confident the Orioles will be rising, as a matter of fact I expect next year to break their string of sub .500 years. You can bank on that.

are the orioles planning to move out of the al east because how in the world are they going to finish above 500 playing close to half their games against the rest of the division? with the rays young players starting to produce the orioles are going to have a hard time not finishing in last place for the foreseeable future. the only thing you should bank on next season with the o's is their 10 straight sub 500 season and a last place finish not to mention being outdrawn by the nats for the 3rd straight year as well.

[Why Not?]

I have a feeling that they'll play like they care against NY versus the choke job and ankle grabbing they did this past weekend.

I think they played decent ball at Fenway. Well, decent considering they lost each game. Decent considering the Sox are quite good and Orioles, ummm, not so much.

--Unable to overcome a silly, 7-run inning on Friday. OK, that was a blowout.
--Saturday's game went to extra-innings. Could have either way.
--In Sunday's game, the Orioles actually showed a little spunk, making it a competitive game after giving up a grand slam in the first inning.

The Orioles have looked like they didn't care on a regular basis the last few years. For the most part, that hasn't been going on this season. They've fought back in the late innings more often.

[bobby jr]

The Orioles are jinxed against the Sox, yes they could easily have won two of three at Fenway. At least they should have won 1. But these things happen. They didn't roll over and play dead,.

I think it took Angelos longer to get his Nats TV deal money than he expected, so his assurances that the team would soon improve , well this may have been delayed for a year or two. But I still believe he said what he meant and the Orioles will succeed.


Angleos is a powerful and gifted man who has been a success throughout his life. I don't think he will leave the Orioles with them suffering through a string of losing seasons. He will not want to pass away or sell the team with that as his legacy.

Unless I am mistaken, Peter Angelos wants to go out on top, and he has the means, the ability, and the determination to do so.

[KissTheRings]

Bobby, are you an adult?

[bobby jr]

Bobby, are you an adult?

Well we all have an "inner child". But I don't see anything childish about my writings. I just don't believe that Angelos is the loser that others on this forum seem to believe. Remember, the O's have gone to the playoffs twice under the ownership of Peter Angelos.

[KissTheRings]

Well we all have an "inner child". But I don't see anything childish about my writings. I just don't believe that Angelos is the loser that others on this forum seem to believe. Remember, the O's have gone to the playoffs twice under the ownership of Peter Angelos.

I wasn't trying to attack you, I honestly wasn't sure. As far as your argument goes, what has angelos done in the past to support your notion that he will do his best to improve the team for future seasons?

Pitching has been the problem for numerous seasons and management/ownership has more recently invested its money in offensive talent while not really doing anything to resolve the gaping hole in the orioles rotation.

[bobby jr]

I wasn't trying to attack you, I honestly wasn't sure. As far as your argument goes, what has angelos done in the past to support your notion that he will do his best to improve the team for future seasons?

Pitching has been the problem for numerous seasons and management/ownership has more recently invested its money in offensive talent while not really doing anything to resolve the gaping hole in the orioles rotation.

As for being an adult, I am old enough to remember very well the Cardinals championship year of 1967, and their losing to Detroit in '68.

What make you think that Angelos won't use the Nats TV deal money to improve the team? He indirectly said that he would by his speech at the end of last year. The Nats TV money just started to flow in very recently from my understanding.

The Orioles do have several good young pitchers and Mazzone needs more than 1 year to have his full positive influence as pitching coach. I think signing Mazzone was a big step.

[MelmoandMiggy]

with the rays young players starting to produce the orioles are going to have a hard time not finishing in last place for the foreseeable future.

You know, I've been hearing this exact line for about five years now.

[NelsonMuntz]

You know...this is like deja vu, all over again. Where have I heard this before? Oh wait...here it is...



Not a year to the day, but pretty darn close.

Very nice.

[YankeePride1967]

This sounds like the kind of statement that made me quit the Orioles board last fall. I was just so tired of the overstated negatives, the doom and gloom brigade which dominated that forum.

The Orioles are not a "pathetic excuse for a professional baseball team". This makes it sound like they have set the record for losses in a season, breaking the record of the 1962 Mets. The Orioles are best described right now as a mediocre MLB team, but one which can beat any other team and knock them out of the race, a dangerous team for the stretch drive.

And the best is yet to come! I am confident the Orioles will be rising, as a matter of fact I expect next year to break their string of sub .500 years. You can bank on that.

if they start spending their large payroll wisely they could.

[keithf1]

There are just too many good teams in the AL for the Orioles to finish over .500

[bobby jr]

There are just too many good teams in the AL for the Orioles to finish over .500

It is true the AL is better now, will make it harder for the O's, but not impossible. More big money teams in the AL

[mjdlight]

Have the teams in the al east decided to do a bowling tournament for 07?

LOLOLOL. Good one. For some reason, I can see Schilling and Papi being a formidable bowling team.

[Why Not?]

LOLOLOL. Good one. For some reason, I can see Schilling and Papi being a formidable bowling team.

I think Millar would be an excellent bowler, perhaps Baltimore's cleanup bowler for 2007. He'd be one of those guys who got better as he downed more and more beer.

[Jersey Yankee]

It is true the AL is better now, will make it harder for the O's, but not impossible. More big money teams in the AL

So every single AL team is big money? You're saying that every single AL team that the O's have a losing record against for either this season or, say, the past 3 years, have all outspent them re payroll? If not, then what's your point?

... I just don't believe that Angelos is the loser that others on this forum seem to believe. Remember, the O's have gone to the playoffs twice under the ownership of Peter Angelos.

So just how long exactly has Peter Angelos been the principal owner of the Baltimore Orioles?

Here's the last 4 times the Birds have made October:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/

1997, Won the AL East
1996, Won the AL Wild Card
1983, Won the World Series
1979, Won the ALCS

[Saxmania]

Seems to me that bobby's just admitted that Peter Angelos cannot build a successful baseball team without extorting other people's money. Bravo for your bravery, bobby.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Jersey Yankee]

Seems to me that bobby's just admitted that Peter Angelos cannot build a successful baseball team without extorting other people's money. Bravo for your bravery, bobby.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Last I heard, they haven't built a successful franchise at all, if their W/L record means anything.

Yankee History

Jan. 3: A limited partnership, headed by George M. Steinbrenner III as its managing general partner, purchases the Yankees from CBS.

Since then, 6 rings in 1977, 1978, 1996, 1998-2000.

Anyway, I found this doing a google search, as orioles.com didn't seem to have a link to Angelos' purchase of the team.

http://www.blinkbits.com/blinks/baltimore_orioles (scroll down)

In 1992, with grand ceremony, the Orioles began their season in a brand new ballpark, Oriole Park at Camden Yards, and thus retiring Memorial Stadium in the major league baseball world. In 1993, Peter Angelos bought the Baltimore Orioles, which returned the team to local ownership. However, Angelos' ownership resulted in a number of controversies. Angelos hired Pat Gillick as GM for the Orioles in 1995. Gillick went on to bring in several premium players like B.J. Surhoff, Randy Myers, and Roberto Alomar. Under Gillick and manager Davey Johnson, the Orioles made their first return trip to post-season play by winning the A.L. Wild Card spot in the 1996 season. The Orioles followed up by winning the A.L. East Division title in 1997. However, after the Orioles failed to advance to the World Series in either playoff, Johnson resigned as manager following a dispute with Angelos, with pitching coach Ray Miller taking his place. With Miller at the helm, the Orioles found themselves not only out of the playoffs, but also with a losing season. When Gillick's contract expired in 1998, it was not renewed. Angelos brought in Frank Wren to take over as GM. The Orioles added volatile slugger Albert Belle, but the team's woes continued in the 1999 season, with stars like Rafael Palmeiro, Roberto Alomar, and Eric Davis leaving in free agency. After a second straight losing season, Angelos fired both Miller and Wren. He named Syd Thrift the new GM and brought in former Cleveland manager Mike Hargrove.

Here's the Birds' link during that timeline:

1985-1999

[Norman]

What make you think that Angelos won't use the Nats TV deal money to improve the team? He indirectly said that he would by his speech at the end of last year. The Nats TV money just started to flow in very recently from my understanding.

You're not serious?

The Orioles do have several good young pitchers and Mazzone needs more than 1 year to have his full positive influence as pitching coach. I think signing Mazzone was a big step.

Ah, the Mazzone factor....still counting on that eh?
Since Mussina left, what's the highest number of wins an O's pitcher has had?

[bobby jr]

Yes I'm still counting on Mazzone to improve the Orioles staff. Historically Mazzone has lowered his pitcher's ERA by more than 1 run per game compared to what they did elsewhere. Mazzone took a year or two to have much of an influence in Atlanta, Orioles fans cannot expect miracles in just one year.

[hardrain]

Keep em' coming, Bobby!

[bobby jr]

He who laughs last, laughs best. To suppose that Mazzone will fail just because he comes to Baltimore is absurd based upon his history of success.

You want to know something? If it happens, I think it will bother Steinbrenner to lose to Angelos more than it would if the Yankees lost to any other team in baseball. I thiink Angelos really bugs Steinbrenner, although I am not sure of exactly why.

I'll give you an example. It enraged Steinbrenner when Mazzone considered signing with the Yankees but chose the Orioles instead, last year. I don't think Stenbrenner would have been as angry he had lost Mazzone to the Blue Jays or Tampa. But seeing him choose Baltimore over New York, that really got to the Boss.

And this isn't the first time that Steinbrenner has overreacted to Baltimore success.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

And this isn't the first time that Steinbrenner has overreacted to Baltimore success.

Success? You're rich.

[bobby jr]

Yes I consider signing Mazzone, arguably the best pitching coach in basball, a success for the Orioles.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

He who laughs last, laughs best. To suppose that Mazzone will fail just because he comes to Baltimore is absurd based upon his history of success.

You want to know something? If it happens, I think it will bother Steinbrenner to lose to Angelos more than it would if the Yankees lost to any other team in baseball. I thiink Angelos really bugs Steinbrenner, although I am not sure of exactly why.

I'll give you an example. It enraged Steinbrenner when Mazzone considered signing with the Yankees but chose the Orioles instead, last year. I don't think Stenbrenner would have been as angry he had lost Mazzone to the Blue Jays or Tampa. But seeing him choose Baltimore over New York, that really got to the Boss.

And this isn't the first time that Steinbrenner has overreacted to Baltimore success.

Baltimore and success are two words that should not be mentioned in the same sentance. The Orioles are a perfect example of what not to do with a franchise, and its not going to get better any time soon. Expect many more years of .500 or under baseball as long as Angelos is in charge.

[keithf1]

He who laughs last, laughs best. To suppose that Mazzone will fail just because he comes to Baltimore is absurd based upon his history of success.

You want to know something? If it happens, I think it will bother Steinbrenner to lose to Angelos more than it would if the Yankees lost to any other team in baseball. I thiink Angelos really bugs Steinbrenner, although I am not sure of exactly why.

I'll give you an example. It enraged Steinbrenner when Mazzone considered signing with the Yankees but chose the Orioles instead, last year. I don't think Stenbrenner would have been as angry he had lost Mazzone to the Blue Jays or Tampa. But seeing him choose Baltimore over New York, that really got to the Boss.

And this isn't the first time that Steinbrenner has overreacted to Baltimore success.

Where did you hear that Steinbrenner "overreacted"? Source?

Are you confusing Baltimore with Boston?

It's like listening to the radio here (I live between D.C. and Baltimore) and they play Yankees suck songs on the radio. Do you think they play Baltimore sucks on the radio in NYC? It's all in your head and it's a 1-way street as far as any rivalry existing whether it be the owners, coaches, players, or fans...

Another example would be, I doubt their are Yankee fans on Orioleshangout.com trying to voice their opinion or stir up arguments.

[bobby jr]

First of all, let me show why I consider getting Mazzone (esp when the Yankees wanted him too) a big success for the Orioles. He has historically helped pitchers lower their ERA's by a half a run per game! With the O's young pitchers coming up, he could have even more of an effect!

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives...zone_eff_1.php

"With this in mind, I set out on a quest to analyze how much better pitchers have been with Mazzone than without. I looked at every pitcher who had pitched at least one full year for Mazzone, and compared their seasonal ERAs with and without Mazzone as their pitching coach. In December of last year I posted some rough results on my weblog, Sabernomics. The verdict: having Leo Mazzone as a pitching coach lowered a pitcher's ERA by a little more than half a run"

[ny]

Yes I consider signing Mazzone, arguably the best pitching coach in basball, a success for the Orioles.

how do you explain the o's under mazzone have fallen from 23rd in team era last year to 29th with an increase of almost a point from 4.56 to 5.42?

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Historically Mazzone has lowered his pitcher's ERA by more than 1 run per game compared to what they did elsewhere. Mazzone took a year or two to have much of an influence in Atlanta, Orioles fans cannot expect miracles in just one year.

First of all, let me show why I consider getting Mazzone (esp when the Yankees wanted him too) a big success for the Orioles. He has historically helped pitchers lower their ERA's by a half a run per game! With the O's young pitchers coming up, he could have even more of an effect!

Even for a forum like this where, let's face it, we all blow a lot of smoke, this was one of the faster rebutting of one's one words you're likely to see.

[JeterRodriguezSheff]

how do you explain the o's under mazzone have fallen from 23rd in team era last year to 29th with an increase of almost a point from 4.56 to 5.42?

Its pretty simple, they arent that good, and no pitching coach is going to change that. That is why calling getting a pitching coach who wont have any effect on the standings or playoff race(besides giving contending teams easy wins) a success is hilarious.

[bobby jr]

Here is an excerpt from a NY Sun article last year by Tim Marchman which details why the Yankees not signing Mazzone was a loss for the team:

http://www.nysun.com/article/21786?page_no=2

"In the short term, the Mazzone news should be gravely disappointing to Yankees fans. He would not have been a mere trophy, another head mounted on Steinbrenner's wall; the particular merits of his program would have been perfect for the Yankees.

Mazzone's specialties are in keeping pitchers healthy, getting top results out of flawed starters, and turning any random collection of dreck into a top-flight bullpen. The main problems the Yankees have with their pitching staff are several injury-prone starters, that most of their starters have one or two crippling flaws (like an inability to throw strikes consistently or keep the ball down),and that they've been unable to find quality middle relievers for several years now. Mazzone would have been the perfect fit of solution to problem.

Moreover, Mazzone seems on his way to an Orioles team that remains, despite its second-half collapse, a viable threat ,,,,,

[bobby jr]

Even for a forum like this where, let's face it, we all blow a lot of smoke, this was one of the faster rebutting of one's one words you're likely to see.

Yeah I was wrong with my initial post, when I looked it up again, Mazzone has lowered ERA's by a half a run a game, not a run. But that is still pretty good .