Eli finally has a good game

[Rich]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
ONE game. Come on, Rich. You got on people for crap like that. Of course, you'll never admit it. Ben is a helluva QB and he proved it against the Pats, Eagles and even in Miami against their decent D AND a hurricane.

Give the kid his props. AGAIN, that "talent" went 6-10 last year.

The system and the talent make the QB.

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by Rich
The system and the talent make the QB.

Agreed!!! You're learning, Son!!!

[Rich]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
Agreed!!! You're learning, Son!!!

The talent makes the manager too (hear that Torre?).

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by Rich
The broadcasters made the point during todays' telecast that Eli was first QB ever to debut against four of the top five rated defenses in the NFL.

Add that fact to the lack of talent he has around him, and the result is an environment in which success becomes difficult to attain.

Talent or lack of talent of the supporting cast aside, the teams Eli has started against:
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Washington
Baltimore
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati

Of those teams, the only ones which Ben hasn't also faced are Atlanta and his own team. Eli hasn't had to face the Pats or Jets, either.

Just throwing that out there.

By the way, the Cowboys' defense has finally started to play to their talent, especially Newman, in recent weeks. It's not going to get any easier for your dude next week. Still upset that they were THIS close to being "The Team That Beat Big Ben." Turning point of the entire season, right there...but I digress.

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by Rich
The talent makes the manager too (hear that Torre?).

Oops!!!! You're Spinning Richie!!! You're Spinning!!!!! :lol

Come on baby let's do the twist
Come on baby let's do the twist
Take me by my little hand and go like this
Ee-oh twist baby baby twist
Oooh-yeah just like this
Come on little miss and do the twist

My daddy is sleepin' and mama ain't around
Yeah daddy is sleepin' and mama ain't around
We're gonna twisty twisty twisty
'Til we turn the house down
Come on and twist yeah baby twist
Oooh-yeah just like this
Come on little miss and do the twist

Yeah you should see my little Sis
You should see my my litlle Sis
She really knows how to rock
She knows how to twist
Come on and twist yeah baby twist
Oooh-yeah just like this
Come on little miss and do the twist
Yeah rock on now
Yeah twist on now
Twist

[#1PaFan]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35
Talent or lack of talent of the supporting cast aside, the teams Eli has started against:
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Washington
Baltimore
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati

Of those teams, the only ones which Ben hasn't also faced are Atlanta and his own team. Eli hasn't had to face the Pats or Jets, either.

Just throwing that out there.

By the way, the Cowboys' defense has finally started to play to their talent, especially Newman, in recent weeks. It's not going to get any easier for your dude next week. Still upset that they were THIS close to being "The Team That Beat Big Ben." Turning point of the entire season, right there...but I digress.

Good post, Cowboy Fan!

I actually think that THAT game against your assorted Felons, Drug Dealers and Pro Bowler from Oklahoma was his Step Out game. I doubt that Maddox would have done that. Eli may or may not have done what Ben did.
The difference is that Ben DID DO it.

This Kid IS THAT good. I'm just trying to figure out why these other folks are busting on him. I'm a Packer fan, but this kid has impressed me all season long.

We'll see how he handles the Playoffs....

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by #1PaFan
Good post, Cowboy Fan!

I actually think that THAT game against your assorted Felons, Drug Dealers and Pro Bowler from Oklahoma was his Step Out game. I doubt that Maddox would have done that. Eli may or may not have done what Ben did.
The difference is that Ben DID DO it.

This Kid IS THAT good. I'm just trying to figure out why these other folks are busting on him. I'm a Packer fan, but this kid has impressed me all season long.

We'll see how he handles the Playoffs....

Right on all points.

Again, supporting cast aside, if one wanted to make the argument that Ben didn't have to go up against the best defenses in his first games, he'd have to allow that, when Ben finally DID face those great Ds, he did so successfully and with poise. The "Well, we'll see just how good he does when he finally faces a REAL defense" talk held zero weight. He made the transition from playing against bad defenses in Cleveland and Cincy to leading a game-winning drive against the Cowboys and then handling the Pats and Eagles with ease in 3 consecutive games.

I just never really witnessed Ben look TRULY like a rookie who was in over his head. The same cannot be said about Eli, and that's no knock on him. In his first start, Drew Henson got trotted out there with a terrific RB, a physical, possession receiver in Keyshawn, a Pro Bowl tight end, a few nice speedster "no-names" for his other receivers, and an O-line that's terrific at pass-blocking, and that didn't make him miraculously better than he was at that point, which was, a rookie in over his head. Ben's success isn't ALL the team and the system. The people who say this probably don't give any credit to Tom Brady, either.

[Rich]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35
Right on all points.

Again, supporting cast aside, if one wanted to make the argument that Ben didn't have to go up against the best defenses in his first games, he'd have to allow that, when Ben finally DID face those great Ds, he did so successfully and with poise. The "Well, we'll see just how good he does when he finally faces a REAL defense" talk held zero weight. He made the transition from playing against bad defenses in Cleveland and Cincy to leading a game-winning drive against the Cowboys and then handling the Pats and Eagles with ease in 3 consecutive games.

I just never really witnessed Ben look TRULY like a rookie who was in over his head. The same cannot be said about Eli, and that's no knock on him. In his first start, Drew Henson got trotted out there with a terrific RB, a physical, possession receiver in Keyshawn, a Pro Bowl tight end, a few nice speedster "no-names" for his other receivers, and an O-line that's terrific at pass-blocking, and that didn't make him miraculously better than he was at that point, which was, a rookie in over his head. Ben's success isn't ALL the team and the system. The people who say this probably don't give any credit to Tom Brady, either.

With all due respect, Natalie, how can you discount the importance of a supporting cast when evaluating the performance of a QB in what is perhaps the ultimate team game, in which each player's ability to function effectively, particularly the QB, is dependent on his teammates' ability to fulfill their assignments?

Granted, Ben has done what has been asked of him, but he is protected by a great OL, while Eli has usually been behind a sieve. Ben's receivers usually get maximal separation, while Eli must often thread a needle while trying to escape a relentless rush with his body parts intact.

Finally, Ben has the benefit of a great defense that often shuts down the opposing offense, which enables the Steelers' offense to run or pass at their discretion (keeping opposing defenses off balance), while the Giants' defense, as a result of being decimated by injuries, often puts the offense in the position of playing catch up, which limits their offensive options, and simultaneously eliminates the element of surprise.

It's going to take a couple of seasons to get an accurate read on their respective talents.

[DaBoys4LifeNYY35]

Originally posted by Rich
With all due respect, Natalie, how can you discount the importance of a supporting cast when evaluating the performance of a QB in what is perhaps the ultimate team game, in which each player's ability to function effectively, particularly the QB, is dependent on his teammates' ability to fulfill their assignments?

I don't discount it at all, Rich, but it isn't EVERYTHING. Like I tried to show with the Henson example, put a rookie who's in over his head behind ANY supporting cast, much less a BAD one (like Eli has), and he's not going to do so hot. He might not know where to look to hit those WRs who are getting separaration. He might make a lot of really dumb "rookie mistakes". Another QB might not be able to take advantage of all the talent around him at that point in his career. But, to a large extent, Roethlisberger hasn't been like that. His calm, cool, and poise are HUGE parts of the game he does have right now (and, if Parcells' Marino comparisons are right, his game is only going to get better), much like with Brady--and those things DO matter at the QB position in football. Plus, there IS a reason he was taken with the 11th pick--the kid's got some TALENT, too.

Not saying Eli isn't all those things, other than rookie in over his head at times, but he hasn't been given a fair shake at showing it. Like I always say, even the ALMIGHTY TROY AIKMAN went 0-11 then was benched for the final few games, during his rookie season, and I know WELL what he became.

Like George said, we'll see how Ben does in the playoffs (if he's healthy), which are a whole different animal. (Yeah, yeah, yeah even Trent Dilfer took a team through the playoffs and to the Super Bowl, but he wasn't a rookie.)

The point is, Ben Roethlisberger deserves at least a LITTLE bit of actual CREDIT for the position his team is in right now.

(EDIT: I'm not some sort of Ben Roethlisberger apologist saying all this either. It pains me to defend a Steeler like this, but I HAVE defended Bradshaw as a playoff QB on here before, too.)

[Soriambi]

Originally posted by DaBoys4LifeNYY35


The point is, Ben Roethlisberger deserves at least a LITTLE bit of actual CREDIT for the position his team is in right now.

I agree, and think he deserves more than a little bit of credit. It obviously helps if you have a great team around you, but you still have to make the throws and make the right choices. A bad or average QB can make an offense with good talent below average by making stupid decisions, causing too many turnovers, and over and underthrowing receivers. Ben hasn't lost one game yet, which is very difficult for a rookie QB in the NFL.

Like I said, the team around him is immensely important, but his talent and the plays he's making are important as well.