The "can you believe the Boston Herald" thread

[arjun_sankalia]

and i quote....

"By turning the negative crowd energy into a positive and then applying his talent, Martinez was able to provide another quality start - six innings, four hits, three runs...."

Seriously, is a "quality start" all that is expected from one of your aces in a crucial game?- That too after the game 1 starter went down and is possibly out for the year?

what the boston media will not print is this- which was in olneys game 2 analysis on espn.com

"As hard as he is throwing, the Yankees are locked onto his fastball -- Olerud, Lofton and Jeter all had good hacks at his hard stuff that inning -- and they are ignoring his breaking stuff. Of the 46 pitches he's thrown, the Yankees have swung and missed once. And seven foul balls. One swing and miss. This is Pedro Martinez we're talking about."

[GimeMoMuny]

The breaking pitch that he threw to A-Rod for a called strike 3 looked like something from a cartoon.

[Workhorse]

Pedro really only made two poor pitches all night:

The flat fastball to Sheff for the RBI single in the first and the cutter that stayed on the inner half to Olerud for the 2 run home run.

Other than that, he was pretty impressive.

[NewEraYanks2527]

He was good, no doubt about it. Thats a start I bet most of us would have taken from any one of our starters. But Lieber was better which seems to go unnoticed, that though Pedro was Pedro, Lieber WAS FANTASTIC!

[mwlsld]

I agree that more should be expected of Pedro by Boston, especially when he has stuff like he had last night.

He was getting handshakes in the dugout after he came out like he was leaving with a 3-0 lead, not an 0-3 deficit.

[Yanks1985]

Pedro pitched very well and 9 out of the 10 times that Pedro pitches like that - the Red sox win.

But this is the ALCS and the goal is to win the game - quality start or no quality start.

Their offense let him down.

[costanza35]

lieber was friggin fantastic. pedro pitched very well, but how great it was to see him get shown up by lieber. and Mariano, i've run out of words to describe him.

[mycroft]

Peedrow was impressive but not impressive enough, on this day.

After all the nonsense I heard after game 1, how the Yankees somehow lost a game they won, I am surprised they haven't declared victory.

[son of mel hall]

I thought he had good velocity but, consistent with his recent outings, his control was off. The Yankees deserve credit for successfully applying the strategy of running up the pitch count. Wasn't Olderdude's homer on pitch 106? That's about when Pedro's effectiveness drops off markedly.

Everyone can see by now that this is not the Pedro of 1999. I don't think he ever will be again. At this point it's reasonable to expect him to be an effective 6 inning starter.

One somewhat ironic observation -- going into last night's game, I expected Lieber to perform like Pedro, and vice versa. I was hoping we would get Pedro out by the sixth or seventh innning, but that we would only have scored maybe a run by then. I thought our best chance would be against the Sox's pen.

[yanksphan]

I would take an outing like Pedro's last night from Brown/Duque/Vaz any day of the week (specifically, this Fri/Sat/Sun)

[yankeegeek]

He wasn't that great. If he was he wouldn't have allowed the Yankees to score 3 runs on him. He gets paid 17 Million dollars and I don't think he pitches like it at all. He had a VERY high pitch count and he was helped out by the Ump on called strike three to Matsui and Bernie.

[koko]

Originally posted by mycroft
Peedrow was impressive but not impressive enough, on this day.

Really? I mean, I think that's all on the Sox hitters. Pedro made 1 mistake all night to Olerud.


He was awesome.

[mycroft]

Originally posted by koko


Really? I mean, I think that's all on the Sox hitters. Pedro made 1 mistake all night to Olerud.


He was awesome.

Lieber was awesome. Sometimes it only takes 1. Lieber made zero.

[koko]

Originally posted by mycroft


Lieber was awesome. Sometimes it only takes 1. Lieber made zero.

Pedro ceratinly ran into a buzzsaw, but he looked like Pedro of 3 years ago last night.

[mvicks21]

Pedro was once a great pitcher. He will be in the Hall Of Fame someday. Now he's a guy who can only throw 100 pitches. It's like clockwork...he throws 100, he gets lit up. The best thing he's got going for him now is his reputation.

[Carissa]

Originally posted by arjun_sankalia
and i quote....

[RedRooster]

Originally posted by koko


Pedro ceratinly ran into a buzzsaw, but he looked like Pedro of 3 years ago last night.

Keep this in mind too -- he hasn't missed a scheduled start all year. If he can throw like that this late in the season (not overpowering, but probably good enough to defeat anyone except the Yankees), it looks like he might have finally overcome his health and stamina issues.

Should be a 20-game winner for the Yankees next year.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by mycroft


Lieber was awesome. Sometimes it only takes 1. Lieber made zero.

No, Lieber made mistakes, too -- Sox didn't hit a HR off them, though. (Similarly, Pedro made mistakes other than the pitch Olerud made.)

Pedro pitched well. Olerud did a great job taking advantage of a mistake at a key time. And Lieber pitched best.

[smr15]

Originally posted by cubswin

No, Lieber made mistakes, too -- Sox didn't hit a HR off them, though.

jeez, cubswin.. not for nothing, but does EVERY comment someone makes about a yankee player have to be somehow refuted?

[Calvin and Hobbes]

Originally posted by smr15

jeez, cubswin.. not for nothing, but does EVERY comment someone makes about a yankee player have to be somehow refuted?

If its not true, why shouldn't it be refuted? Lieber was fantastic, but that doesn't mean every pitch was perfect.

[son of mel hall]

Originally posted by smr15

jeez, cubswin.. not for nothing, but does EVERY comment someone makes about a yankee player have to be somehow refuted?

He admits that Lieber pitched best; he just doesn't think Lieber made no mistakes. So it's more like a qualification than a refutation.

[bnorris85]

i would have taken that start anyday of the week...when his team cant hit lieber then there is nothin he can do...i also think a move to the nl could be the best thing for pedro....he has faced the same teams too many times for too long

[cubswin]

Originally posted by smr15

jeez, cubswin.. not for nothing, but does EVERY comment someone makes about a yankee player have to be somehow refuted?

I was taking nothing away from Lieber -- instead, pointing out that credit is due Olerud, as he did something few, if any, Sox batters did -- b/c the Sox did have opportunities (albeit few) but failed to capitalize.

[son of mel hall]

Originally posted by bnorris85
i would have taken that start anyday of the week...when his team cant hit lieber then there is nothin he can do...i also think a move to the nl could be the best thing for pedro....he has faced the same teams too many times for too long

What will interest me almost as much as whither Pedro is how much a team is willing to pay for his services. I'm sure that his value has declined, but just how much? In addition, in the last few seasons since Giambi-like bloated contracts were being handed out, there has been a so-called market correction (if not collusion). So it may be difficult to disaggregate the decline in Pedro's value from the general effects of the market correction.

No way he rakes in 17.5m again, of that I'm certain.

[los]

Originally posted by cubswin



I was taking nothing away from Lieber -- instead, pointing out that credit is due Olerud, as he did something few, if any, Sox batters did -- b/c the Sox did have opportunities (albeit few) but failed to capitalize.

Sox had ZERO opportunities last night while Lieber pitched. 2 starts he's shut down the red sox and made zero mistakes.

[NYCVirago]

Originally posted by NewEraYanks2527
He was good, no doubt about it. Thats a start I bet most of us would have taken from any one of our starters. But Lieber was better which seems to go unnoticed, that though Pedro was Pedro, Lieber WAS FANTASTIC!

This reminds me of my pet peeve of the week -- that the media, who was practically sizing the Red Sox for World Series rings, all of a sudden realizes that the Yankee pitching is not as bad as they've been saying all year. As Mussina put it, the Yankees won over 100 games even though they had "no pitching." And why should the media be surprised that Lieber pitched well? He had a great September, took a no-hitter into the seventh with the Red Sox last month, and pitched wonderfully against Minnesota.

[son of mel hall]

Originally posted by NYCVirago


This reminds me of my pet peeve of the week -- that the media, who was practically sizing the Red Sox for World Series rings, all of a sudden realizes that the Yankee pitching is not as bad as they've been saying all year. As Mussina put it, the Yankees won over 100 games even though they had "no pitching." And why should the media be surprised that Lieber pitched well? He had a great September, took a no-hitter into the seventh with the Red Sox last month, and pitched wonderfully against Minnesota.

I was worried about our pitching going into the postseason. Wasn't the team ERA somewhere near the middle of the AL pack? Wasn't the Sox ERA the best in the league or second? In fact I'm still worried about which Brown will show up or whether El Duque will be good to go.

I'm very pleased at the performances turned in by Moose and Lieber. But as the oriental philospher, Yo Ghi Ber Ra, once said, it aint over till it's over.

[Jetes2A-rod13]

He had great stuff but he LOST. Period. End of story. You need to win in order for a quality start in the postseason.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by los


Sox had ZERO opportunities last night while Lieber pitched. 2 starts he's shut down the red sox and made zero mistakes.

Yes, he's shut them down twice.

The rest of your post is simply wrong (which takes nothing away from his performance). (2 examples of the top of my head: inside pitch left over the plate to Ortiz, outside pitch left over the plate against Bellhorn)

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by yanksphan
I would take an outing like Pedro's last night from Brown/Duque/Vaz any day of the week (specifically, this Fri/Sat/Sun)

So would I. Pedro pitched great. Unfortunately for him, Lieber pitched a little bit better.

[los]

Originally posted by cubswin



Yes, he's shut them down twice.

The rest of your post is simply wrong (which takes nothing away from his performance). (2 examples of the top of my head: inside pitch left over the plate to Ortiz, outside pitch left over the plate against Bellhorn)

You're grasping at straws, and either hitter did sqwat against him. He made no mistakes.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by los


You're grasping at straws, and either hitter did sqwat against him. He made no mistakes.

No, it just seems that you don't understand what a mistake is. If you hang a curve or leave a cutter over the plate, it's a mistake, regardless of whether the hitter "does sqwat" with it.

That's why Olerud deserves credit while the Sox batters do not: he hit a mistake (a fastball that Pedro placed on the inner half, rather than outside, where tek was calling for it) for a key HR.

[twentyquestions]

Originally posted by cubswin



No, it just seems that you don't understand what a mistake is. If you hang a curve or leave a cutter over the plate, it's a mistake, regardless of whether the hitter "does sqwat" with it.

Exactly