2003 vs. 2004 Redsox PLAYOFF TEAM. who's better?

[ColombiaYanksFan]

Many have claimed that this years team is much improved from last year. It's hard for me to tell either way.

The ones gone from last year are Yankee killers Todd Walker and Nomar. (Kevin Millar seems to be the new Yankee killer) I think between them both, they only made 1 error in the post season last year, so defensively, no improvement there(plus both robbed a few players from hits). As far as 1stB, Mientwetizeketz, I've heard he's great at first, but him and Cabrera have a lifetime batting avg. under .240 (or so).

Acquiring one of the best pitchers and closers in the majors this year, was a humungous improvement(Schilling and Foulke). Now as far as Scott Williamson, will he be on the PS roster? That may even out the comparison to last year's bullpen, depending who replaces him.

Mr. Pedro last year gave up 7 homeruns in 29 games. This year, he's given up 26 homeruns in 32 games!. That's a no no going into the playoffs. His ERA went from 2.22 last year, to 3.78 this year.

Wakefield I think is about the same. Some may argue that he's gotten better, but with a knuckleballer, I just don't know what to expect. Eventhough, when he gets clobbered, he really gets clobbered. With the exception of the Yankees(eventhough last time he gave up 5 runs w/them).

Does anyone know what other players are gone, and ones that are new on this team, going into this playoffs? OR WHAT OTHER COMPARISONS THERE ARE? I really would love to compare a little more to see if those so called "analysts" at ESPN (Phillip, Gammons) are going to eat their words again, as they do year after year with their bad predictions.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

2003

[WebsterMulligan]

2004 is better, IMO. They have better infield defense, starting pitching and a better bullpen. They still slug the baseball with authority, as they did in '03.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by COLOMBIAYANKSFAN
Many have claimed that this years team is much improved from last year. It's hard for me to tell either way.

The ones gone from last year are Yankee killers Todd Walker and Nomar. (Kevin Millar seems to be the new Yankee killer) I think between them both, they only made 1 error in the post season last year, so defensively, no improvement there(plus both robbed a few players from hits). As far as 1stB, Mientwetizeketz, I've heard he's great at first, but him and Cabrera have a lifetime batting avg. under .240 (or so).

Acquiring one of the best pitchers and closers in the majors this year, was a humungous improvement(Schilling and Foulke). Now as far as Scott Williamson, will he be on the PS roster? That may even out the comparison to last year's bullpen, depending who replaces him.

Mr. Pedro last year gave up 7 homeruns in 29 games. This year, he's given up 26 homeruns in 32 games!. That's a no no going into the playoffs. His ERA went from 2.22 last year, to 3.78 this year.

Wakefield I think is about the same. Some may argue that he's gotten better, but with a knuckleballer, I just don't know what to expect. Eventhough, when he gets clobbered, he really gets clobbered. With the exception of the Yankees(eventhough last time he gave up 5 runs w/them).

Does anyone know what other players are gone, and ones that are new on this team, going into this playoffs? OR WHAT OTHER COMPARISONS THERE ARE? I really would love to compare a little more to see if those so called "analysts" at ESPN (Phillip, Gammons) are going to eat their words again, as they do year after year with their bad predictions.

Cabrera has a lifetime BA of .268 and he's a GG fielder. He's batting .295 since coming to Boston.

Mientkiewicz is a lifetime .272 hitter.

Nomar wasn't a Yankee killer in the playoffs last year. He finally started hitting in Game 7.

The positives
Damon is having his best year in MLB. Much better than last year

Ortiz is having his best year in MLB. He seems to do just fine against NY

Ditto for Manny

The bench. Dave Roberts, Mientkiewicz, Youkilis and Maribelli is a very strong bench.

Negatives

Pedro and his last 4 starts. I prefer the 4 starts before that. I will take my chances with Pedro over Lieber, El Duque, Brown or Vaz.

Bottom Line: It's a more well rounded team with better pitching, defense and hitting than last year.

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by COLOMBIAYANKSFAN
Many have claimed that this years team is much improved from last year. It's hard for me to tell either way.

The ones gone from last year are Yankee killers Todd Walker and Nomar. (Kevin Millar seems to be the new Yankee killer) I think between them both, they only made 1 error in the post season last year, so defensively, no improvement there(plus both robbed a few players from hits). As far as 1stB, Mientwetizeketz, I've heard he's great at first, but him and Cabrera have a lifetime batting avg. under .240 (or so).

Does anyone know what other players are gone, and ones that are new on this team, going into this playoffs? OR WHAT OTHER COMPARISONS THERE ARE? I really would love to compare a little more to see if those so called "analysts" at ESPN (Phillip, Gammons) are going to eat their words again, as they do year after year with their bad predictions.

Cabrera is a career .268 hitter. And you should throw Bellhorn into the mix since he replaced Walker. When saying there is no improvement defensively because Walker and Nomar only had one error in the postseason is a bit misleading. A player with less range may not have an error but he also doesn't get to the balls that another player would. Regardless, pretty hard to compare the teams until they actually start playing in the post-season.

[Dooley Womack]

The 2003 Sox team. They had more of an aura if that counts for anything.

Take away their impressive stretch and this 2004 Sox team was slightly better than a .500 club.

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by Dooley Womack
The 2003 Sox team. They had more of an aura if that counts for anything.

Take away their impressive stretch and this 2004 Sox team was slightly better than a .500 club.

Take away their .500 stretch and they were around a .750 team.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by Dooley Womack
The 2003 Sox team. They had more of an aura if that counts for anything.

Take away their impressive stretch and this 2004 Sox team was slightly better than a .500 club.

Whatever makes you sleep at night Dooley.

[ColombiaYanksFan]

But Nomar and Walker had great range. Remember that great diving catch last year in the 7th game by Walker?

[RhodeyYankee2638]

perhaps I shall explain my stance

1) Last year, the Sox were more solid up and down their rotation. Pedro 2003 is about equal to Schil 2004. Wakefield was very good last year. Burkett and Lower were decent, not great. Wakefield was not getting smashed around last year. Lowe was very good out of the pen

2) Williamson at his best > Foulke at his best

3) More guys had career years last year: Millar, Mueller, Varitek etc.

4) guys are having the worst years of there career this year: Orlando, Pedro, Doug M

5) The Sox weakness of playing on the road was really accented this year

[ColombiaYanksFan]

I was more than convinced that this guy went downhill compared to what he did last year, and to my surprise, he's almost even from last year.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by COLOMBIAYANKSFAN
But Nomar and Walker had great range. Remember that great diving catch last year in the 7th game by Walker?

Neither Nomar or Walker have great range, especially this year for Nomar.

Walker was so bad that he was nicknamed "Lawnchair" by my group of friends.

Sometimes you were better off just sticking a chair out there and take your chances at 2B. It was the reason he didn't start with the Cubs this year.

[WebsterMulligan]

Originally posted by NDBoston


Neither Nomar or Walker have great range, especially this year for Nomar.

Walker was so bad that he was nicknamed "Lawnchair" by my group of friends.

Sometimes you were better off just sticking a chair out there and take your chances at 2B. It was the reason he didn't start with the Cubs this year.

I completely agree. Walker was in the lineup, solely for his bat.

[ColombiaYanksFan]

Yet against the Yankees, he used to seem like Mr. Perfection on defense and offense. Go figure.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
perhaps I shall explain my stance

1) Last year, the Sox were more solid up and down their rotation. Pedro 2003 is about equal to Schil 2004. Wakefield was very good last year. Burkett and Lower were decent, not great. Wakefield was not getting smashed around last year. Lowe was very good out of the pen

2) Williamson at his best > Foulke at his best

3) More guys had career years last year: Millar, Mueller, Varitek etc.

4) guys are having the worst years of there career this year: Orlando, Pedro, Doug M

5) The Sox weakness of playing on the road was really accented this year

Arroyo is better than Wakefield last year. Wakefield is a mixed bag. We shall see.

Foulke is a VERY solid closer. He's proven that time and time again. He had two bad patches this year.

Cabrera is having a very good 2nd half with the Red Sox. Ortiz, Damon, Manny are having better years than last year.

Millar is on par with last year now with a better 2nd half. Mientkiewicz is a late inning replacement. He won't be starting at 1B.

Red Sox record on the road in 2003 was 42-39
Red Sox record on the road in 2004 was 43-38

Varitek in 2003 273 .351 .512 .863
Varitek in 2004 .296 .390 .482 .872
He also has 2 errors all year long.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by NDBoston



Red Sox record on the road in 2003 was 42-39
Red Sox record on the road in 2004 was 43-38

Look at Pedro on the road. That could be huge right there, especially against high powered offenses like the Angels, Yanks and Cards who they may have to face. He is starting game 2 in Anaheim. Look at Aroyo's numbers at home. He is starting game 3 at home.....

Look at the 46 point difference in batting average on the road. and the loss of 100 points in OPS. I don't know how there numbers were last year, but those are pretty bad, considering they get homefield advantage only in the WS if they make it there

And, IMHO, Foulke is probably the 6th best closer in the playoffs, and I'm being nice, not taking into consideration his horrible postseason numbers at Fenway......

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Look at Pedro on the road. That could be huge right there, especially against high powered offenses like the Angels, Yanks and Cards who they may have to face. He is starting game 2 in Anaheim. Look at Aroyo's numbers at home. He is starting game 3 at home.....

Look at the 46 point difference in batting average on the road. and the loss of 100 points in OPS. I don't know how there numbers were last year, but those are pretty bad, considering they get homefield advantage only in the WS if they make it there

And, IMHO, Foulke is probably the 6th best closer in the playoffs, and I'm being nice, not taking into consideration his horrible postseason numbers at Fenway......

Every team has splits in average home and away. I'm tired to keep looking.

the bottom line is that the Red Sox have a better record this year than last year away.

Foulke has a VERY small sample size in the playoffs. If Dye wasn't in RF last year , it would have been Oakland vs the A's in the ALCS. He's going to be just fine and hes done well against the Yankees and the Angels this year.

Anaheim 0.00 ERA 4 appearances 3 saves
NYY 1.50 ERA 9 appearances 2-1 3 saves

I'm not too worried about the closer.

[Looie #19]

Originally posted by NDBoston
it would have been Oakland vs the A's in the ALCS.

Well it has been said they've beaten themselves!

[NYYFAN]

The key will be which pedro shows up...if it's the Daddy Pedro it will be another long winter in Boston...

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by NYYFAN
The key will be which pedro shows up...if it's the Daddy Pedro it will be another long winter in Boston...

I agree 100% on that. Arroyo is the other key IMO. The Red Sox need him to be the pitcher he was all year.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by NDBoston

Every team has splits in average home and away. I'm tired to keep looking.

the bottom line is that the Red Sox have a better record this year than last year away.

well i would hope every team has home and away splits

1 more win than this year...... even though there numbers are much worse on the road this year than last. not a great sign heading into postseason

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


well i would hope every team has home and away splits

1 more win than this year...... even though there numbers are much worse on the road this year than last. not a great sign heading into postseason

I had a typo in the last post. I'm working too hard.
It's not keeping me up at night. The splits didn't effect the win/loss record and in the end that matters.

I would also rather have Pedro pitching in 80 degree weather in Anaheim versus the 40 degrees in Boston.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by NDBoston



I would also rather have Pedro pitching in 80 degree weather in Anaheim versus the 40 degrees in Boston.

I'm just curious. If Pedro has always had trouble pitching in the cold, how come he has such great postseason numbers, considering most of the time he pitches in Boston in October

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


well i would hope every team has home and away splits

1 more win than this year...... even though there numbers are much worse on the road this year than last. not a great sign heading into postseason

Red Sox 2004 Road Record: 43-38
Yankees 2004 Road Record: 44-37

I guess one game is all that stands between a long winter and a ticket to the World Series... :rolleyes:

[SINCE77 2]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


Take away their .500 stretch and they were around a .750 team.

Take away the wildcard and the boys are off to the golf course.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown


Red Sox 2004 Road Record: 43-38
Yankees 2004 Road Record: 44-37

I guess one game is all that stands between a long winter and a ticket to the World Series... :rolleyes:

Thank you, that is an incredible point

I can think of a few instances when 1 game stands between a long winter and a ticket to the World Series, or even an ALCS. Ask Pedro after Game 7, or Foulke after the 2003 ALDS

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


Take away their .500 stretch and they were around a .750 team.

.750????

I didn't realize they were the greatest team in the history of baseball

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


I'm just curious. If Pedro has always had trouble pitching in the cold, how come he has such great postseason numbers, considering most of the time he pitches in Boston in October

those number were before his shoulder problems in 2002. For whatever reason he has problems getting loose in cold weather now.

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

A few more head-to-head stats:

Yanks Rd:
Avg. .267
OBP .353
SLG .453
OPS .806
ERA 5.30 (ouch)
WHIP 1.41
BAA .281

Yanks Home:
Avg .270
OBP .353
SLG .463
OPS .816
ERA 4.11
WHIP 1.30
BAA .262

Sox Rd:
Avg .260
OBP .342
SLG .441
OPS .783
ERA 4.30
WHIP 1.30
BAA .256

Sox Home:
Avg .304
OBP .378
SLG .504
OPS .883
ERA 4.09
WHIP 1.29
BAA .255

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Thank you, that is an incredible point

I can think of a few instances when 1 game stands between a long winter and a ticket to the World Series, or even an ALCS. Ask Pedro after Game 7, or Foulke after the 2003 ALDS

Oh come on Rhodey. The fact that the Red Sox and Yankees have a 1 game difference in away records shows your argument doesnt hold up.

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Thank you, that is an incredible point

I can think of a few instances when 1 game stands between a long winter and a ticket to the World Series, or even an ALCS. Ask Pedro after Game 7, or Foulke after the 2003 ALDS

These are your words:

"5) The Sox weakness of playing on the road was really accented this year"

If one game separates the Yanks and Sox with regard to road records, then I guess the Yanks are a weak road team too. Just applying your logic here... no reason to get snippy.

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by NDBoston


Oh come on Rhodey. The fact that the Red Sox and Yankees have a 1 game difference in away records shows your argument doesnt hold up.

Funny how people that like to talk stats and records get so pissy when their arguments fall apart by actually looking at the stats and records.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown
A few more head-to-head stats:

Yanks Rd:
Avg. .267
OBP .353
SLG .453
OPS .806
ERA 5.30 (ouch)
WHIP 1.41
BAA .281

Yanks Home:
Avg .270
OBP .353
SLG .463
OPS .816
ERA 4.11
WHIP 1.30
BAA .262

Sox Rd:
Avg .260
OBP .342
SLG .441
OPS .783
ERA 4.30
WHIP 1.30
BAA .256

Sox Home:
Avg .304
OBP .378
SLG .504
OPS .883
ERA 4.09
WHIP 1.29
BAA .255

I dont think its a secret that the Yankee pitching has been horrible. But look at the Yanks hitting, very consistent on the home and road. The Red Sox supposedly have a better offense, but their numbers drop off MASSIVELY when not hitting at Fenway.

ANd a 4.11 ERA at home isn't too shabby considering we gave up 22 ER's in a game

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


I dont think its a secret that the Yankee pitching has been horrible. But look at the Yanks hitting, very consistent on the home and road. The Red Sox supposedly have a better offense, but their numbers drop off MASSIVELY when not hitting at Fenway.

ANd a 4.11 ERA at home isn't too shabby considering we gave up 22 ER's in a game

Rhodey:

you have been OWNED in this thread. Stop while you're ahead.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown


These are your words:

"5) The Sox weakness of playing on the road was really accented this year"

If one game separates the Yanks and Sox with regard to road records, then I guess the Yanks are a weak road team too. Just applying your logic here... no reason to get snippy.

look at the numbers. 100 point OPS difference and 46 points in batting average. You posted it yourself. The Yanks dropoff isn't nearly that much.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


...And, IMHO, Foulke is probably the 6th best closer in the playoffs, and I'm being nice, not taking into consideration his horrible postseason numbers at Fenway......

6th or not, his ERA and WHIP were better than Rivera's this year, and he pitched better against the Yanks than Rivera did against the Sox. I'm pretty confident of his abilities out there.

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


look at the numbers. 100 point OPS difference and 46 points in batting average. You posted it yourself. The Yanks dropoff isn't nearly that much.

Yep: and the Sox more consistent and superior ptching (home and road) counters that effect. It all translates to a ONE GAME difference in road records.

Face it: you talked out of your a$$ about the Sox and road difficulties. The Yankees are one measley game better on the road. Move along... nothing to see here.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


... look at the Yanks hitting, very consistent on the home and road. The Red Sox supposedly have a better offense, but their numbers drop off MASSIVELY when not hitting at Fenway...

All that says is that the Yanks don't hit especialy well at home. Their road OPS is 20 points higher than the Sox -- hardly a substantial difference.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by cubswin



All that says is that the Yanks don't hit especialy well at home. Their road OPS is 20 points higher than the Sox -- hardly a substantial difference.

pesky facts

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by cubswin



6th or not, his ERA and WHIP were better than Rivera's this year, and he pitched better against the Yanks than Rivera did against the Sox. I'm pretty confident of his abilities out there.

His Era is higher than Rivera's, and has blown 3 more saves in just a couple less opportunities

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown


Yep: and the Sox more consistent and superior ptching (home and road) counters that effect. It all translates to a ONE GAME difference in road records.

.

Just curious, not to be an ass

But if they have superior hitting at home and superior pitching on both the home and road compared to teh Yanks, and the pen and team has played better against the Yanks, why the hell did they finish in second?

[stevethesoxfan]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


I'm just curious. If Pedro has always had trouble pitching in the cold, how come he has such great postseason numbers, considering most of the time he pitches in Boston in October

I think the Pedro "cold" factor is a recent one. It didn't seem to bother him as much a few years ago. And to define "cold", I'd say 40-45. A night of 50-55 won't bother him too much.

My team take?

2004 vs 2003
Schilling=Pedro
Pedro>Lowe
Arroyo=Wakefield
Wakefield=Burkett
Lowe= pitcher x

Among the position players, the differences are improvements at 2b (defensively and slightly offensively)with Bellhorn over Walker, a slight downgrade at SS (Cabrera is better defensively, but Nomar was a better hitter), downgrade at 3b (Mueller was the AL BA champ in 03), upgrade at CF (Damon has been fabulous). Also better at DH, as Ortiz is now officially a MONSTER hitter.

The bench is FAR better. They have added 2 GG in Minky and Pokey, plus a good glove and base stealer in Roberts.

The bullpen is probably a wash. Foulke is a plus, but the rest of the pen isn't performing quite as well as in 03.

So overall I think they are stronger. What mainly helps them is they have two studs at the front of the rotation now. The 5th starter is meaningless. That's 5 starts of Martinez and Schilling in a 7 game series -- they're bound to win at least 3 of those. I know Pedro has struggled a little lately, but there's no way I see him losing twice in a series.

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


His Era is higher than Rivera's, and has blown 3 more saves in just a couple less opportunities

Rivera Foulke
ERA 1.94 2.17

K/9 7.55 8.57

BAA .225 .206

WHIP 1.08 0.94

Yep, Rivera has a lower ERA. Foulke is better in every other category.

Care to continue?

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


His Era is higher than Rivera's, and has blown 3 more saves in just a couple less opportunities

My mistake -- I mixed the 2 up. ERA and WHIP were comparable -- ERA 2.17 v. 1.94 is virually meaningless, as are WHIP, BAA, K/BB, K/9 advantages.

Rivera had a much better SV %, which is why I thought it was interesting to see how they did in relatively high-pressure games, ie, their head-to-head matchups.

I'm not claiming that Foulke is better than Rivera -- just pointing out that claims that he will choke really don't have much foundation.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by NDBoston


Rivera against the red Sox 4.50 0-2 3 saves in 5 appearances.
Foulke against the Yankees 1.50 you've seen the rest.

you didnt say against the Sox

You said Foulke's ERA and WHIP were better this year

[Bosox Guy in Chitown]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Just curious, not to be an ass

But if they have superior hitting at home and superior pitching on both the home and road compared to teh Yanks, and the pen and team has played better against the Yanks, why the hell did they finish in second?

Mystique and Aura.














Derek Lowe's blisters resulted from sticking singles in their g-strings.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


you didnt say against the Sox

You said Foulke's ERA and WHIP were better this year

''

that wasnt me.

Just admit your road argument was bogus and we can call it a day. I'm sure you can admit that now. The evidence is overwhelming.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Just curious, not to be an ass

But if they have superior hitting at home and superior pitching on both the home and road compared to teh Yanks, and the pen and team has played better against the Yanks, why the hell did they finish in second?

Changing the subject now...

Finished second b/c aggregate stats don't tell the whole story.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown


Care to continue?

53/57 in saves

.75 ERA in postseason (I know postseason stats shouldn't count when talking bout the postseason though)

[cubswin]

Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


you didnt say against the Sox

You said Foulke's ERA and WHIP were better this year

I said it and admitted my mistake. (Something you seem unable to do.)