Tedy Franclittle, Red Sox Manager

[stevethesoxfan]

Ok, I've finally been able to extract my fist from my TV tube after the 8th inning tonight, and I'm a bit confused. Fellow Red Sox fans, help me out.

1) Last year, Grady Little gets skewered for not removing a tiring Martinez in Game 7 while still ahead. Perhaps, if you give him the benefit of the doubt, it was because he didn't feel his bullpen was strong enough, and that Pedro was his best option. :rolleyes:

2) Sooooooo, Theo goes out and gets a bona fide closer in Foulke. He gets a new manager. Problem solved.

3) Last night, Francona rests his weary bullpen stalwarts. Ok, so maybe you don't agree with that, but at least his big guns are rested for tonight. Locked and loaded.

4) It's the 8th inning, and lo and behold, the Red Sox have a lead against the Yankees. Martinez is pitching a decent but not spectacular game, and he is tired. So the 8th starts and Francona brings in Williamson/ Timlin/ Foulke to seal the deal ---- er, what's that you say??????? HE IS LEAVING PEDRO IN???????????? ARRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!


Now I know why the Yankee payroll is so high every year. It has the f****** Red Sox manager on it.

/vent

[twentyquestions]

btw, I love how your emoticons support the narrative.

[scull567]

He was at 100 pitches so most expected him to come out in the 8th. The problem was leaving him after matsui's homerun. Tito said after the game that he "couldnt take pedro out after 2 pitches because then it would make it look like i made the wrong deciscion before the inning". So basically, Tito left in pedro so the media wouldnt bash him. That is disturbing. Thankfully, this is the regular season and Francona still has time to learn from his mistakes.

[dabomb2045]

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan
Ok, I've finally been able to extract my fist from my TV tube after the 8th inning tonight, and I'm a bit confused. Fellow Red Sox fans, help me out.

1) Last year, Grady Little gets skewered for not removing a tiring Martinez in Game 7 while still ahead. Perhaps, if you give him the benefit of the doubt, it was because he didn't feel his bullpen was strong enough, and that Pedro was his best option. :rolleyes:

2) Sooooooo, Theo goes out and gets a bona fide closer in Foulke. He gets a new manager. Problem solved.

3) Last night, Francona rests his weary bullpen stalwarts. Ok, so maybe you don't agree with that, but at least his big guns are rested for tonight. Locked and loaded.

4) It's the 8th inning, and lo and behold, the Red Sox have a lead against the Yankees. Martinez is pitching a decent but not spectacular game, and he is tired. So the 8th starts and Francona brings in Williamson/ Timlin/ Foulke to seal the deal ---- er, what's that you say??????? HE IS LEAVING PEDRO IN???????????? ARRRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!


Now I know why the Yankee payroll is so high every year. It has the f****** Red Sox manager on it.

/vent

maybe Francona doesnt have much confidence in his pen....Williamson is just back from the DL....and Foulke has been real shaky of late.....he has ALOT to prove when it comes to pitching in big games

maybe he felt more comfortable with Pedro out there....even over the 100 pitch mark

obviously it didnt work out for u guys.....but maybe thats what he was thinking

[MiamiKat]

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan

(edited to save bandwidth )

I'm a Yankee fan, and, stevethesoxfan, I think you're right with everything you said above...except perhaps Williamson (is he really ready yet?) and the Yankee payroll comment, of course. Only Mendoza is still on the books; everyone knows that.

When an obviously gassed Pedro walked out to the mound in the 8th inning, I pretty much knew right then the Yankees were going to win the game. When Matsui hit the HR and Terry left Pedro in, I couldn't believe my eyes. It felt like "Groundhog Day"...I had seen this mistake made before and I knew how it was going to end.

In summary, Francoma (no typo) didn't learn from history, so he was surely condemned to repeat it...which he did tonight.

(Of course I really wanted Francona to bring in Kim, but that's because I'm not a nice person during Yankees/Sox games. )

[stevethesoxfan]

Originally posted by twentyquestions
btw, I love how your emoticons support the narrative.

Unfortunately there is not an emoticon of me strangling a bald man.

Actually, my previous post has me feeling much better. I have purged my veins of any clots that might have given me a stroke. I usually do not get upset, it's rare, but tonight was too much.

In a sense, tonight was a blessing (ok, I 'm rationalizing). It was doubtful that the Sox were going to win the East anyway, and at least now it isn't dragged out another week. I had predicted last week that they would split these six games, which wouldn't be enough. Now they can get ready and rested for the playoffs, so that Francona can blow some more f****** games. Oops, sorry.

I have a frightening premonition in my head of a 27-inning Sox-Yanks playoff game where Torre has used 11 pitchers, but Schilling has gone the entire 27 innings, throwing 378 pitches, and Francona is too scared to ask him to come out. Jeter then bunts in the winning run as Schilling, attempting to make the play, passes out from exhaustion.

It's sooooooooo much easier as a Patriots fan. Unfortunately, it's a bye week, so I'm stuck with the Sox.

[Bluesexy's daddy]

Originally posted by stevethesoxfan

Now I know why the Yankee payroll is so high every year. It has the f****** Red Sox manager on it.

/vent

Yes but the YANKEES realized a fantastic savings when Duquette left. The man was worth every cent while he was with us.

[Bluesexy's daddy]

Originally posted by scull567
Tito said after the game that he "couldnt take pedro out after 2 pitches because then it would make it look like i made the wrong deciscion before the inning". So basically, Tito left in pedro so the media wouldnt bash him. That is disturbing. Thankfully, this is the regular season and Francona still has time to learn from his mistakes.

Man, I have never seen a baseball night filled with so many strange quotes. I'm a YANKEES fan so I must be dreaming.

How the hell can Franconna say such a thing? I wish John Henry, Luciano, and Epstein could have gotten near a mike.

I honestly think the Sox are a VERY good team but their quotes tonight sound like something that I would expect from the french army.

[Bluesexy's daddy]

.

[JDPNYY]

I'd really love to see the Red Sox sign Larry Bowa to manage the team next year.

[BoSox37]

The worst part is that he blew Thursday's game by pitching Kim in then 9th of a close game. his reason, in the post game show, was he wanted to rest the bullpen for this weekend. Then with his key guys rested last night, He lets Pedro start the 8th with 101 pitches. The man is a moron, and as I have been saying all season, he should be fired.

[NDBoston]

Originally posted by BoSox37
The worst part is that he blew Thursday's game by pitching Kim in then 9th of a close game. his reason, in the post game show, was he wanted to rest the bullpen for this weekend. Then with his key guys rested last night, He lets Pedro start the 8th with 101 pitches. The man is a moron, and as I have been saying all season, he should be fired.

You might want to think before you post.

It was either Astacio or Kim the other night and Kim had decent numbers against Surhoff in the past. It wasn't like Kim was getting pounded either. They hit singles in the right area. It happens.

It wasnt Francona pitching Thursday night. It was Lowe, Mendoza and Myers that gave up all those runs before Kim.

Think about how many times Francona has had a slow hook this year. I see Friday night and the Schilling game against Toronto.

People who think Francona compares to Grady and should be fired, didn't watch much baseball last year. I can bring up time after time when Grady screwed up with his misuse of the bullpen and his idiotic players removed too early in the game. Francona has been a decent manager. He;s the best manager the Red Sox have had in some time.although I liked Jimy Williams when he first started with the Sox. .

IMO These type of threads are also better not done on a Yankee Board. If you want to vent, go to a Red Sox board.

[soxfansince67]

Based on Matsui's career #s vs. Pedro (BA .095 0 HR 0RBI)prior to the 8th inning last night Francona took a calculate gamble that didn't payoff.

It's history, let's move on.

BTW:
Matsui Vs. Embree- BA .444 0HR 1 RBI
Matsui Vs. Timlin- BA .333 1HR 5 RBI

[BoSox37]

Originally posted by NDBoston


You might want to think before you post.

It was either Astacio or Kim the other night and Kim had decent numbers against Surhoff in the past. It wasn't like Kim was getting pounded either. They hit singles in the right area. It happens.

It wasnt Francona pitching Thursday night. It was Lowe, Mendoza and Myers that gave up all those runs before Kim.

Think about how many times Francona has had a slow hook this year. I see Friday night and the Schilling game against Toronto.

People who think Francona compares to Grady and should be fired, didn't watch much baseball last year. I can bring up time after time when Grady screwed up with his misuse of the bullpen and his idiotic players removed too early in the game. Francona has been a decent manager. He;s the best manager the Red Sox have had in some time.although I liked Jimy Williams when he first started with the Sox. .

IMO These type of threads are also better not done on a Yankee Board. If you want to vent, go to a Red Sox board.

You completely missed the point of my post. In the post game show Thursday, Francona specifically said that he did not use Embree, Foulke, TImlin, and SWilly because he wanted them rested for this weekend. Then when he has them rested, he instead lets Pedro start the 8th with 100+ pitches. If he specifically rested them and ended up letting a close game get away on Thursday, he definitely should have used them Friday, when the situation clearly called for it.

Also, Francona has left a ton of pitchers in too long this year. In addition to the ones that you mentioned, Arroyo in TB (Toby Hall GS) also comes to mind, there are also many others, just can't think of them right now.

[Jim F.]

Originally posted by MiamiKat
(edited to save bandwidth )

Thanks! I wish more people would do that .

-jim

[YankeePride1967]

I normally don't agree with Chris Russo of WFAN but he is on the air this morning killing Pedro. Saying why not hold the $18 million a year pitcher accountable for his failings for once? If he is this top pitcher then he has to get the job done. Sure Grady made a dumb move last year but Pedro is supposed to be the ace, how about holding him accountable for not getting the job done for once instead of always blaming others?

[NDBoston]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BoSox37


You completely missed the point of my post. In the post game show Thursday, Francona specifically said that he did not use Embree, Foulke, TImlin, and SWilly because he wanted them rested for this weekend. Then when he has them rested, he instead lets Pedro start the 8th with 100+ pitches. If he specifically rested them and ended up letting a close game get away on Thursday, he definitely should have used them Friday, when the situation clearly called for it.

Also, Francona has left a ton of pitchers in too long this year. In addition to the ones that you mentioned, Arroyo in TB (Toby Hall GS) also comes to mind, there are also many others, just can't think of them right now. [/QUOTE

It's not a ton of times. you also forget the times when Arroyo worked through his early problems and ended up getting the wins.

This wasn't the playoffs. The magic number is #5 for the WC and Francona overcame a ton more injuries to have a better record then last year.

Talk to me once the season is over before you start talking about firing managers. Read some SoSH thread on Grady from last year. think about how he overused Kim in July. The switching out of players. etc etc etc.

this isn't WEEI. Stop overreacting

[YankeePride1967]

and I'm on hold now to talk to Chris Russo. Rick from Milford

[YankeePride1967]

a guy on with Russo just gave Pedro's pitch counts since July. Except for one 92 pitch outing, he was always well north of 100 pitches. 100-120 range, now he can't do it?

[BobbyMurcerFan]

Originally posted by GoRocket
I normally don't agree with Chris Russo of WFAN but he is on the air this morning killing Pedro. Saying why not hold the $18 million a year pitcher accountable for his failings for once? If he is this top pitcher then he has to get the job done. Sure Grady made a dumb move last year but Pedro is supposed to be the ace, how about holding him accountable for not getting the job done for once instead of always blaming others?

B/c a MANAGER should NOT run his ace into the ground and SHOULD try to WIN the game?

Everyone watching that game knew Pedro was gassed, except TF. It's HIS JOB to see things like that.

I was thinking "This is de ja vu all over again."

If the Sox are smart (big if) they'd get Lou from Tampa Bay.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

Originally posted by GoRocket
a guy on with Russo just gave Pedro's pitch counts since July. Except for one 92 pitch outing, he was always well north of 100 pitches. 100-120 range, now he can't do it?

He breaks down every season too. So yes, he CAN'T.

[YankeePride1967]

I was just on. I said "how many more half million dollar managers do we crucify before we hold the $18 million pitcher accountable?" I concluded by saying "if we want to consider him an all-time great then he should be able to throw 115-120 pitches against anybody".

[YankeePride1967]

Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
B/c a MANAGER should NOT run his ace into the ground and SHOULD try to WIN the game?

Everyone watching that game knew Pedro was gassed, except TF. It's HIS JOB to see things like that.

I was thinking "This is de ja vu all over again."

If the Sox are smart (big if) they'd get Lou from Tampa Bay.

Then Pedro is not an all-time great. An all-time great can pitch in that situation. He threw 110 pitches and north multiple times, he was at 102 going into the 8th.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

Originally posted by GoRocket
Then Pedro is not an all-time great. An all-time great can pitch in that situation. He threw 110 pitches and north multiple times, he was at 102 going into the 8th.

Yes Pedro is fragile. That's been the rap on him since day one. That's why Lasorda let him leave LA. That's why he breaks down every year. That's why the 117 ptiches he threw last night were the most he's thrown all year.

Terry Francona has to know all this, so they he left him in is beyond me.

[scull567]

Someone said mad dog was saying Pedro is not a hall of famer? did he really say that?

[YankeePride1967]

Originally posted by scull567
Someone said mad dog was saying Pedro is not a hall of famer? did he really say that?

He said he's going to the Hall, but he shouldn't be compared to the Koufax's of the world.

[YankeePride1967]

Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Yes Pedro is fragile. That's been the rap on him since day one. That's why Lasorda let him leave LA. That's why he breaks down every year. That's why the 117 ptiches he threw last night were the most he's thrown all year.

Terry Francona has to know all this, so they he left him in is beyond me.

Actually, he had a 121 pitch outing since July and several in the 110-120 range. Francona may have erred, however, Pedro does not get a free pass. And what you said above is why I can't consider him an all-time great.

[stevethesoxfan]

Originally posted by NDBoston

IMO These type of threads are also better not done on a Yankee Board. If you want to vent, go to a Red Sox board.

I understand your point ND, but any Yankee fan with an IQ over 22 would know many of us are angry about this. We wouldn't be hiding anything from anybody.

And frankly, this is the best moderated board out there, which is why I post here most often. (That is NOT meant as a backhanded compliment to the Yankees themselves, however, as I when I think of them).

I understand where you are coming from and respect your sentiment however.

[GoBernie]

Rude.

[JeffWeaverFan]

I've been thinking about this for a while and realized that Pedro was only at 100 pitches. What would you be saying if he brought in Timlin and Timlin blew the game?

At the time though, I turned to my friend and said "I like our chances against Pedro in the 8th and (if necessary) Foulke in the 9th."

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I've been thinking about this for a while and realized that Pedro was only at 100 pitches. What would you be saying if he brought in Timlin and Timlin blew the game?

At the time though, I turned to my friend and said "I like our chances against Pedro in the 8th and (if necessary) Foulke in the 9th."

Personally, I would be saying damn I wish Timlin had pitched better but I have no problem with Francona making the move. At that point, Pedro had pitched 7 innings and given up 3 runs, he was at 103 pitches and had done his job. It was time to go to the bullpen. The Yankee lineup is very tough and the last thing you want is a tiring pitcher going against them.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

I think Fracona made the right move

[MiamiKat]

I think even the Sox bullpen expected a phone call once the hits started piling up in the 8th. ESPN showed the guys a few times just standing there and looking toward the Boston dugout, waiting for a call that just wasn't coming.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan

Personally, I would be saying damn I wish Timlin had pitched better but I have no problem with Francona making the move. At that point, Pedro had pitched 7 innings and given up 3 runs, he was at 103 pitches and had done his job. It was time to go to the bullpen. The Yankee lineup is very tough and the last thing you want is a tiring pitcher going against them.

Allright. I just think it is unfair to second guess a manager after the move doesn't work. If you didn't like the move to begin with (which you obviously didn't) then you have every right to be upset.

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Allright. I just think it is unfair to second guess a manager after the move doesn't work. If you didn't like the move to begin with (which you obviously didn't) then you have every right to be upset.

I agree, and there are plenty of times that I catch myself after the fact realizing that I was criticizing a move until it didn't work out.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Originally posted by JDPNYY
I'd really love to see the Red Sox sign Larry Bowa to manage the team next year.

The Sox like to have too much fun for Bowa. He could become baseball's first manager to spontaneously combust.



I'd love to here Remy's commentary.

[NYCVirago]

What I find astonishing about Francona is that he admitted he didn't take Pedro out in the 8th after Matsui's home run because he was worried to would make him (Francona) look bad because he didn't take him out before the inning. You can't have a manager openly admitting that his managerial moves are based on saving face.

[YankeePride1967]

Originally posted by JDPNYY
I'd really love to see the Red Sox sign Larry Bowa to manage the team next year.

Hey why not, someone else to blame for Pedro failing against the Yanks. Might as well make it 3.

[sorigirl]

I have to admit, I was surprised that Francona left Pedro in. While it worked in our favor, I understand how a Sox fan would want to choke someone right about now.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...p-202319c.html

"In the eighth, I thought after they got the lead that maybe he'd come out," said Yankee starter Mike Mussina, who was gone after allowing three runs in six innings. "Matsui's home run, I was curious, and then Bernie goes to a full count and hits a double, I thought they'd take him out.

"It had a lot of similarities to the playoff game last year. . . . I don't know - history tends to repeat itself, though usually not that quickly."

[RIREDSOXFAN]

You are all missing the point! This is all part of the Red Sox brilliantly conceived plan to tank the last few games (BK Kim, for god's sake and letting Pedro lose again) to remove any hope of winning the division, which was lost last Sunday in NY as I posted on here last week at that time. This way, the Sox can be completely rested and have everybody right where they want them. Anyone who plays the Red Sox now knows the Sox are so screwed up they have no chance of winning. This overconfidence on the part of teams playing the Red Sox will enable them to catapult their way to their first WS title since 1918.

[ClayParker]

Originally posted by RIREDSOXFAN
You are all missing the point! This is all part of the Red Sox brilliantly conceived plan to tank the last few games (BK Kim, for god's sake and letting Pedro lose again) to remove any hope of winning the division, which was lost last Sunday in NY as I posted on here last week at that time. This way, the Sox can be completely rested and have everybody right where they want them. Anyone who plays the Red Sox now knows the Sox are so screwed up they have no chance of winning. This overconfidence on the part of teams playing the Red Sox will enable them to catapult their way to their first WS title since 1918.

It's not just the Red Sox's plan. It's part of a greater conspiracy conceived by Bud Selig.