Poll...AL MVP

[bnorris85]

Poll with a twist, you guys should know the numbers....manny better offensive numbers across the board, sheff more win shares and lil better defence...VOTE

[cubswin]

fwiw, whether Sheff has more winshares depends on your source

when I googled winshares this morning, 2 of the first cources listed, both as of 9/9, differed: 1 had Manny first (Sheff tied for 4th w/C. Guillen), another had Sheff (29, v. 24 for Manny)

[WakefieldsCrewSox]

While everyone is of course free to disagree, I say the defense is a wash. While Manny gains notoriety every time he makes a mistake, he has also made some spectacular defensive plays in left this season, and is generally an extremely steady outfielder. He is never going to be Gold Glove caliber, but the team is definately not hurt by having him out there. That said, he is putting up a monster offensive year and should be named MVP IMO.

[RIyankee]

Pitchers shouldn't be eligible. They have their own award (Cy Young).

[Little Big Sheff]

Whoever wins the AL East will win the award.

[parkerstrong]

sheffield is better than manny on defense. i cant believe you said they are a wash. you obvouisIy dont watch the yankees play much. I argued with cubswin yesterday about it, but he never said they were equal defensively. I think the difference is substantial, but an objective fan would at least admit sheffield is better defensively.

[JDPNYY]

It would be ok with me if Manny won the MVP as long as the Yankees win the World Series.


I don't much care about individual awards.

[cptcarl]

I'm a Sox fan and voted for Manny, but it's very close. And while Manny has improved considerably on defense the past season and a half, Sheff still has a better glove overall. Manny's strength defensively is a good, accurate arm, and he's good at hitting the cut-off man. But he has below average range, mostly because he gets a poor jump on the ball.

[REDSOXIN2004]

I would say Manny. And if you look at the offensive numbers he is starting to pull away a little bit in categories which him and sheff were pretty close

Originally posted by cptcarl
I'm a Sox fan and voted for Manny, but it's very close. And while Manny has improved considerably on defense the past season and a half, Sheff still has a better glove overall. Manny's strength defensively is a good, accurate arm, and he's good at hitting the cut-off man. But he has below average range, mostly because he gets a poor jump on the ball.

[RhodeyYankee2638]

Originally posted by JDPNYY



I don't much care about individual awards.

Exactly. When was the last time the Yanks had an MVP. I think it was Donnie Baseball, and thats when we weren't making it to the postseason every year. I'll take a well rounded hitting machine rather than 1 or 2 outstanding hitters anyday

[WebsterMulligan]

I would have to say Manny Ramirez. He's been hot all year long.

[Dooley Womack]

Their numbers are fairly close. Manny is a clown in the outfield, Sheff is above average. Manny throws like Olive Oil while Sheff has a gun (see his assists).

Vlad is playing for a club that's probably going on early vacation. Ortiz is only about offense.

MVP=Sheff

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by Dooley Womack
Their numbers are fairly close. Manny is a clown in the outfield, Sheff is above average. Manny throws like Olive Oil while Sheff has a gun (see his assists).

Vlad is playing for a club that's probably going on early vacation. Ortiz is only about offense.

MVP=Sheff

I don't know about Sheff being above average in the outfield. He seems like a decent outfielder, but no better than average. But, I haven't watched all that many Yankee games (mostly on the radio) though I thought he made a pretty poor play on the ball last night that just hit the wall.

[Kill Lois]

Manny has been putting up amazing numbers no question about it, but as far as I've seen watching red sox games, he doesn't save/win the game with a swing of his bat. Sheffield does that. Plus I don't see how he could win it this year if he didn't win it in 1999 where he didn't even place 2nd, maybe it was because he was playin for the indians. If Gary Sheffield can finish at ~.300/40HR's/130RBI's and is a big part in the postseason, I think he'll have a very good shot. But with that said, I voted for Manny and I'm a non-sox fan.

[cptcarl]

"Their numbers are fairly close. Manny is a clown in the outfield, Sheff is above average. Manny throws like Olive Oil while Sheff has a gun (see his assists).

Vlad is playing for a club that's probably going on early vacation. Ortiz is only about offense."

Yes, the Halos, one game out of first, sure look like they're out of it...

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
While everyone is of course free to disagree, I say the defense is a wash.

You've gotta be kiddding me. Just based on the difference in their arms Sheff wins here. Also, check out their UZR's from last season. Sheff is a -6 and Manny was somewhere around a -25. Defensively, Sheff is better. How much better he is is the only question here.

Now, I haven't watched all that many red sox games but how many walkoff HR's or 9th inning game-tying HR's or doubles has Manny had this year? Sheff has a bunch and just based on those has won the about 5 games that the Yankees would not have won. Don't forget that Sheff is doing this with one shoulder and is playing in a bad hitters park for rightys while Manny is playing in the best hitters park for rightys. Manny's offensive numbers are helped by that and you can see that if you look at his splits. Also, Manny has David Ortiz protecting him while Sheff has had A-Rod for most of the season who has been awful when batting with men in scoring position so many times the pitchers will pitch around Sheff. Because of that, Sheff leads the AL in walks.

The point is that Sheff is the MVP and there is really no question about that in my mind. I'll add that he will definately win it this year.

[Euclis]

Sheff and Manny are about equal with the glove....both have below average range. What sets them apart is Sheffield's arm, which is one of the best in the AL, while Manny is merely average.

Whoever wins the AL East will win the award.

Agreed.

[tdel23]

let them have the MVP, I'd rather have a World Championship

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan


Manny's offensive numbers are helped by that and you can see that if you look at his splits.

I don't really care who wins the MVP, I want a championship. But Manny's splits are quite comparable, take a look: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...ting&year=2004

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


I don't really care who wins the MVP, I want a championship. But Manny's splits are quite comparable, take a look: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...ting&year=2004

If he was playing half his games at Yankee Stadium I would guess his OPS would be about 1.000. Maybe less.

[SoxfaninNY]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan


Now, I haven't watched all that many red sox games but how many walkoff HR's or 9th inning game-tying HR's or doubles has Manny had this year? Sheff has a bunch and just based on those has won the about 5 games that the Yankees would not have won.

Why is a homerun or double in the ninth that wins the game more valuable than a homerun or double in the fifth that puts the Sox ahead or puts the game out of reach for the opponent? Just because the yanks were behind the whole game and Sheffield ties it or wins it in the ninth doesn't make it any better than if he brought runs in earlier in the game.

[MaineSoxFan]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

If he was playing half his games at Yankee Stadium I would guess his OPS would be about 1.000. Maybe less.

Maybe, though I doubt it. His OPS this year at Yankee stadium is 1.160 and through 2001-04 it is 1.092

[cubswin]

Originally posted by Dooley Womack
...Manny throws like Olive Oil ...

this actually is untrue. You're confusing manny w/Damon, apparently.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

You've gotta be kiddding me. Just based on the difference in their arms Sheff wins here. Also, check out their UZR's from last season. Sheff is a -6 and Manny was somewhere around a -25. Defensively, Sheff is better. How much better he is is the only question here.

Now, I haven't watched all that many red sox games but how many walkoff HR's or 9th inning game-tying HR's or doubles has Manny had this year? Sheff has a bunch and just based on those has won the about 5 games that the Yankees would not have won. Don't forget that Sheff is doing this with one shoulder and is playing in a bad hitters park for rightys while Manny is playing in the best hitters park for rightys. Manny's offensive numbers are helped by that and you can see that if you look at his splits. Also, Manny has David Ortiz protecting him while Sheff has had A-Rod for most of the season who has been awful when batting with men in scoring position so many times the pitchers will pitch around Sheff. Because of that, Sheff leads the AL in walks.

The point is that Sheff is the MVP and there is really no question about that in my mind. I'll add that he will definately win it this year.

Yeah, but you also think Pennington is MVP of the NFL, so we have to take all of this with a grain of salt...

Manny's #s are helped less by his home park than Sheff's are by his.

manny has not had Ortiz behind him all season -- for much of the season he had a cast of characters such as Millar (when Ortiz was batting 3 and Nomar, Trot, etc. were all injured). None of them equal AROd for protection, regardless of ARod';s troubles this year.

Walk-off HRs are dramatic, but you have to be in the situation to do it. A 3-run HR earlier in a game that gives you a lead that you keep is just as valuable as a walkoff HR, just not as visible.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

If he was playing half his games at Yankee Stadium I would guess his OPS would be about 1.000. Maybe less.

and if Sheff were playing outside YS, his OPS would be about 900

[SoxfaninNY]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


Maybe, though I doubt it. His OPS this year at Yankee stadium is 1.160 and through 2001-04 it is 1.092

And that is all against Yankee pitchers.

[Irony Of It All]

Originally posted by cubswin

and if Sheff were playing outside YS, his OPS would be about 900

That's a pretty big assumption since Sheff had an even better year last year with the Braves.

Anyways, I voted for Manny. As much as I love what Sheff has done this year, Manny has clearly been the better hitter.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/eqa.html

[cubswin]

Originally posted by Irony Of It All


That's a pretty big assumption since Sheff had an even better year last year with the Braves...

I'm just going with what he has done this year outside YS (903)

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by SoxfaninNY


Why is a homerun or double in the ninth that wins the game more valuable than a homerun or double in the fifth that puts the Sox ahead or puts the game out of reach for the opponent? Just because the yanks were behind the whole game and Sheffield ties it or wins it in the ninth doesn't make it any better than if he brought runs in earlier in the game.

Very fair point. The point is that Manny might hit a 2 run HR in the 5th inning to give the sox a 1 run lead but then the red sox will end up adding to it and win the game by 5. I'm sure that has happened a lot. But, I'm talking about a situation where there are 2 outs in the 9th inning and Sheff comes up and hits the game winning HR. Or, 0 outs in the 9th and Sheff hits the game-tying or game-winning HR. I think there is a difference there.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


Maybe, though I doubt it. His OPS this year at Yankee stadium is 1.160 and through 2001-04 it is 1.092

I would be willing to bet those numbers would go down with a bigger example. Manny is a great great hitter, maybe the best one in the AL but I believe that Sheff has had a better season. Maybe not necessarily number wise but I believe that Sheff has had more big hits then Manny has that have directly won the Yankees the game. I think that Sheff has been more important to the Yankees than Manny has to the red sox.

[Dooley Womack]

Originally posted by MaineSoxFan


I don't know about Sheff being above average in the outfield. He seems like a decent outfielder, but no better than average. But, I haven't watched all that many Yankee games (mostly on the radio) though I thought he made a pretty poor play on the ball last night that just hit the wall.

Not watching him play every day till this season, I didn't think he was as good as an outfielder as he is. I always focused on his bat and his offensive stats.

But if you ask any fan, Yankee or other, who has watched him on a daily basis, Sheff is, without doubt, above average and can make some sparkling plays. His arm, even with his injury, is incredibly strong and accurate as well.

Everyone can make a bad play or misjudge a fly now and then. Even Andruw Jones has his bad days.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



Yeah, but you also think Pennington is MVP of the NFL, so we have to take all of this with a grain of salt...

Manny's #s are helped less by his home park than Sheff's are by his.

manny has not had Ortiz behind him all season -- for much of the season he had a cast of characters such as Millar (when Ortiz was batting 3 and Nomar, Trot, etc. were all injured). None of them equal AROd for protection, regardless of ARod';s troubles this year.

Walk-off HRs are dramatic, but you have to be in the situation to do it. A 3-run HR earlier in a game that gives you a lead that you keep is just as valuable as a walkoff HR, just not as visible.

Pennington will be the MVP this season and will have the best QB rating this season. That's a guarentee

As I said in the other MVP thread I believe that Sheff's numbers are better because he gets pumped up playing in front of the home crowd because the fact is that Yankee Stadium is hell on right handed hitters.

Fair point about the hitters.

Another fair point about the walk-off HR's. But Sheff has done it time and time again this season. Remember when Jeter was hit and had to leave the game against Cleveland? Sheff was up next and hit a 9th inning HR when we were down by a run. (I believe my facts are correct here but it might have been a tie game, not positive). It was absolutely amazing and people on the GTF were calling it because we knew how amazing Sheff has been this year. I think that if the same person watched every red sox game and yankee game this season he would believe that Sheff has been more valuable than Manny has.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by cubswin



and if Sheff were playing outside YS, his OPS would be about 900

I know that is what his home/away splits are but I disagree.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by Irony Of It All


That's a pretty big assumption since Sheff had an even better year last year with the Braves.

Anyways, I voted for Manny. As much as I love what Sheff has done this year, Manny has clearly been the better hitter.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/eqa.html

Manny might be the better hitter but Sheff has been more important to the Yankees than Manny has to the red sox.

(I know I keep repeating this but I have to because it is so true)

[scull567]

Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Manny might be the better hitter but Sheff has been more important to the Yankees than Manny has to the red sox.

(I know I keep repeating this but I have to because it is so true)

Fair enough, Sheff probably does deserve the MVP but Manny deserves the Playor of the Year Award (if there was such one )

[SheffMVP11]

I think we have to wait until the season is over. Whoever's team finishes first will have the upper hand, plus one guy could get hot in the next 3 weeks while the other gets cold and that could greatly influence that statistical argument.

[vicocala]

Yankee Stadium may be hell on right handed hitters, but IIRC Manny is right at the top of active home run hitters who visit Yankee Stadium. The fact is, Manny is one guy who can easily hit the ball out of any park. He probably has better opposite field power than anyone I have seen in the forty years or so I have followed the game.

[Soriambi]

I voted for Sheffield, and I'm a Yankee fan.

[JeffWeaverFan]

Originally posted by vicocala
Yankee Stadium may be hell on right handed hitters, but IIRC Manny is right at the top of active home run hitters who visit Yankee Stadium. The fact is, Manny is one guy who can easily hit the ball out of any park. He probably has better opposite field power than anyone I have seen in the forty years or so I have followed the game.

This has nothing to do with who should win the MVP.

[vicocala]

It has to do with the argument that Sheffield is hurt by playing at Yankee Stadium. It certainly hasn't hurt Manny, that is the point.

And make no mistake, Manny and David carried the Sox thru the injury plagued days of summer. They almost single-handidly kept the Sox in contention. If they had not been there, the Sox would of been much worse than a .500 team from May thru July.

[Kill Lois]

Manny > Ortiz. I don't understand why David is still included in all these MVP conversations. It's either Manny wins, or Manny loses, and if Manny loses, then you shouldn't even think about Ortiz getting the MVP over him. The race is Manny, Sheffield, and Vlad.

[nhyankeefan]

Originally posted by Kill Lois
Manny > Ortiz. I don't understand why David is still included in all these MVP conversations. It's either Manny wins, or Manny loses, and if Manny loses, then you shouldn't even think about Ortiz getting the MVP over him. The race is Manny, Sheffield, and Vlad.

I agree, I think it will end up 1 - Manny (especially if the Sox win the East), 2- Sheff and 3- Vlad (I think tha Angels will miss the playoffs and that will hurt him). Ortiz will come in a distant 4, primarily because he is a DH as he is having a great year.

[bnorris85]

god damn 3 manny hr's in 2 days...and he still has 4 more at bats tonight

[cubswin]

very nice catch by Manny tonight, by the way, to end the 4th

[montyque]

I voted for Sheff. I'm a Yanks fan.

That said, I will grit my teeth and admit that it's quite incredible that Manny has finished no higher than 3 once. I wouldn't be pissed off if he won the MVP this season, if he and Sheff stay along their current lines.

He's a great player whom I hate more than life itself.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by montyque
I voted for Sheff. I'm a Yanks fan.

That said, I will grit my teeth and admit that it's quite incredible that Manny has finished no higher than 3 once. I wouldn't be pissed off if he won the MVP this season, if he and Sheff stay along their current lines.

He's a great player whom I hate more than life itself.

aw, c'mon, you shouldn't hate life

[AhhhGuinness]

As long as pitchers are "allowed" to be picked for MVP, I would say that there's no doubt the most valuable player in baseball has been Santana.

There's no way the Twins are where they are without him. He's been the best pitcher in baseball by far. He's like Pedro circa 1999.

[Holy Schmidt]

Originally posted by AhhhGuinness
As long as pitchers are "allowed" to be picked for MVP, I would say that there's no doubt the most valuable player in baseball has been Santana.

There's no way the Twins are where they are without him. He's been the best pitcher in baseball by far. He's like Pedro circa 1999.

I also voted for Santana.

Check out my 'Dare to Compare' thread and cast a vote.

People just don't realize that Santana's arm action cannot - and will not - be "figured out". Ain't gonna happen. Not now, not next week, and most definitely not next year when he makes a run at 2000 Pedro.

He'll have to tear his rotator cuff. God forbid.

[cubswin]

Originally posted by AhhhGuinness
As long as pitchers are "allowed" to be picked for MVP, I would say that there's no doubt the most valuable player in baseball has been Santana.

There's no way the Twins are where they are without him. He's been the best pitcher in baseball by far. He's like Pedro circa 1999.

Santana is the Cy Young, but I can't give him the MVP. Imo, a pitcher should get the MVP only if he truly is dominant AND there are no strong everyday players for candidates. I think Manny is a strong MVP candidate, and Santana's atrocious start further takes him out of the running.

Manny/Sheff: Manny now has an "edge" of 85 pts in OPS (109 on the road).

[SoCal Pinstriper]

I have been a Gary Sheffield fan since his Marlins days. Unfortunatly, I really think that Manny deserves this award this year. My vote went to Manny.