maybe not just sabermatics

[markp]

I was thinking the people who like to use sabermatics in their analysis, and especially those that understand things like context and sample size could use this forum for a place to discuss the Yankees without the "let's fire Don Mattingly" or "Contreras (Arod, Giambi, etc.) is a bust (choker, etc.) posts and threads found in the main forum.
Since we'd be using sabermatics in our evaluations of who really is a good player and who isn't, they would be inferred in any discussion of the team.

[WiffleWOOD]

that's certainly part of the idea of this forum, and I'd love to see it start happening. Of course, inherent in that idea is that sabermetrics, or sabermetrically-influneced discussion, would have to inform the posts; otherwise, we'd just be stealing business from Inside the Lines to create some snobby little forum.

but yes, by all means, these threads do not need to just be about a specific stat question.

[Jim F.]

Originally posted by WiffleWOOD
we'd just be stealing business from Inside the Lines to create some snobby little forum.

Oh, I thought that was the idea of this forum .

Seriously, I did have that thought in mind when creating this forum, Markp. In fact, I was hoping the analytical posts would be so active that it would influence the Y:ITL forum to become less stupid.

-jim

[markp]

Originally posted by Jim F.
Oh, I thought that was the idea of this forum .

Seriously, I did have that thought in mind when creating this forum, Markp. In fact, I was hoping the analytical posts would be so active that it would influence the Y:ITL forum to become less stupid.

-jim

I was trying not to put it that way, but I guess that's what I was saying.

I do think it's a little early in the season for much "stat-head" talk. All of the deletions additions to the roster have been beaten to death for months, and only 2B is likely to change for the next few weeks.

I do think there are a few more very intelligent posters on the other forum, but there also seems to be an influx of people who either haven't been watching baseball for very long or haven't learned much from when they did watch.

[WiffleWOOD]

Originally posted by markp

I do think it's a little early in the season for much "stat-head" talk.

exactly, which is why it'd be great if we started having more threads here with a smarter, more statistically sound base to them. They don't need to be pure sabermetrics threads.

[AngelAstro]

Indubitably.

: Puffs on cigar while wearing smoking jacket in a study :

(You'd think they would have a smilie for that, geez)

[markp]

I think we've hit new depths. Everything from trade Giambi to blaming Matsui for the Patriots day loss. There's even a thread about Arod "eating his words."
I hope none of them find this forum.

[WiffleWOOD]

Originally posted by markp
I hope none of them find this forum.

Don't worry Mark, that's what I'm here for

[Dave in MD]

Originally posted by markp
I think we've hit new depths. Everything from trade Giambi to blaming Matsui for the Patriots day loss. There's even a thread about Arod "eating his words."
I hope none of them find this forum.

Sorry, I went off the deep end because that play really pissed me off. And I really used that thread to discuss some statistically valid criticisms of Matsui's defense.

[markp]

it was afrustrating play to watch.

But what will make or break Matsui isn't his glove, it's his so far less than advertised bat. We lost that game because we're not hitting yet. In July we'll have a new 2B and a lot of the guys stumbling around will be hitting and that game will be remembered much like the first two of one of the midsummer series last year, when Boston annihilated us: Fun for red Sox fans at the time, but not really significant in the big picture.

[Dave in MD]

Originally posted by markp
it was afrustrating play to watch.

But what will make or break Matsui isn't his glove, it's his so far less than advertised bat. We lost that game because we're not hitting yet. In July we'll have a new 2B and a lot of the guys stumbling around will be hitting and that game will be remembered much like the first two of one of the midsummer series last year, when Boston annihilated us: Fun for red Sox fans at the time, but not really significant in the big picture.

I completely agree. Matsui needs to hit better. I am encourage by his improved walk rate, but he needs to slug at a higher rate. I do think all the talk about how fundamental a player he is often masks how mediocre he is defensively. Not that defense matters much in left field.

[markp]

it's pretty comical. Everything from the rotation being lousy to the hitters being overrated and the Red Sox being invincable. As Tony Kornheiser would say....well maybe I'd better not go there, but there's certainly no analysis involved, just ranting.

[Allan]

Originally posted by Dave in MD


I completely agree. Matsui needs to hit better. I am encourage by his improved walk rate, but he needs to slug at a higher rate. I do think all the talk about how fundamental a player he is often masks how mediocre he is defensively. Not that defense matters much in left field.

I agree that Matsui's success has much more to do with batting than fielding prowess. But, I think you are wrong to dismiss defense so matter-of -factly.
Boston fans still speak in hushed tones of how magnificently Yaz played LF, yet deride Manny for butchering the very same position. Every year, game in and game out, Yaz knew the "monsta" well enough to hold many a prodigious drive to a lowly single.
Sabermetrics offers a great deal of new insights into the game but saying defense is inconsequential misses the mark IMHO.

[NJASDJDH]

Originally posted by Allan


I agree that Matsui's success has much more to do with batting than fielding prowess. But, I think you are wrong to dismiss defense so matter-of -factly.
Boston fans still speak in hushed tones of how magnificently Yaz played LF, yet deride Manny for butchering the very same position. Every year, game in and game out, Yaz knew the "monsta" well enough to hold many a prodigious drive to a lowly single.
Sabermetrics offers a great deal of new insights into the game but saying defense is inconsequential misses the mark IMHO.

Whatever importance defense has, this importance is about non existant in LF.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Allan


I agree that Matsui's success has much more to do with batting than fielding prowess. But, I think you are wrong to dismiss defense so matter-of -factly.
Boston fans still speak in hushed tones of how magnificently Yaz played LF, yet deride Manny for butchering the very same position. Every year, game in and game out, Yaz knew the "monsta" well enough to hold many a prodigious drive to a lowly single.
Sabermetrics offers a great deal of new insights into the game but saying defense is inconsequential misses the mark IMHO.

I think Yaz's offense, and winning the Triple Crown, was the real source of those "hushed tones."

[ring403]

Originally posted by markp
it's pretty comical. Everything from the rotation being lousy to the hitters being overrated and the Red Sox being invincable. As Tony Kornheiser would say....well maybe I'd better not go there, but there's certainly no analysis involved, just ranting.

I must say, so far this season, ITL has been much more like a larger version of the Spors Bar than anything else. It's mind-boggling to me how people can completely dismiss rational, statistical based analysis in favor of irrational, emotional outbursts.
I hope you all will continue to try to bring some thoughtful insights to ITL, if for no other reason than for the sake of my sanity!

[Allan]

Originally posted by Rich


I think Yaz's offense, and winning the Triple Crown, was the real source of those "hushed tones."

Then you weren't listening. Certainly Yaz's bat was his claim to fame, but don't try to tell me that
his D went unnoticed even if it was leftfield.

And to the poster who assured me that D is especially insignificant in LF, then I suggest you try telling the '55 Yankees that Sandy Amarillo
didn't matter or was insignificant to the eventual outcome of that year's WS.

I try to enjoy ALL the dimensions of baseball including D. Otherwise, I might as well only watch the AS game HR derby and be fully satisfied that I've seen all that baseball has to offer.

[AngelAstro]

Originally posted by Allan


Then you weren't listening. Certainly Yaz's bat was his claim to fame, but don't try to tell me that
his D went unnoticed even if it was leftfield.

And to the poster who assured me that D is especially insignificant in LF, then I suggest you try telling the '55 Yankees that Sandy Amarillo
didn't matter or was insignificant to the eventual outcome of that year's WS.

I try to enjoy ALL the dimensions of baseball including D. Otherwise, I might as well only watch the AS game HR derby and be fully satisfied that I've seen all that baseball has to offer.

They aren't saying that it went unnoticed, they are just saying that it is much more important to have someone that can hit very well play leftfield than it is for someone to be an excellent fielding leftfielder. Any defense you can get out of corner outfielders is a bonus, but offense from those positions is a must. What makes Yaz and Bonds (maybe not recently) all the more special is that they played great defense while having great offense.

[Allan]

Originally posted by AngelAstro


They aren't saying that it went unnoticed, they are just saying that it is much more important to have someone that can hit very well play leftfield than it is for someone to be an excellent fielding leftfielder. Any defense you can get out of corner outfielders is a bonus, but offense from those positions is a must. What makes Yaz and Bonds (maybe not recently) all the more special is that they played great defense while having great offense.

Have I even remotely suggested in any of my posts that hitting is not the key factor for LF ( indeed for most positions) ?

All I'm suggesting is that baseball has many facets. Certainly hitting and pitching are the most important by a long shot. But there are other aspects of the game that the sabermetric camp does not always seem willing to acknowledge.

[Dave in MD]

Originally posted by Allan


Have I even remotely suggested in any of my posts that hitting is not the key factor for LF ( indeed for most positions) ?

All I'm suggesting is that baseball has many facets. Certainly hitting and pitching are the most important by a long shot. But there are other aspects of the game that the sabermetric camp does not always seem willing to acknowledge.

we acknowledge defense. That's why I knock Jeter. However, in left field defense is just not important.

[Allan]

Originally posted by Dave in MD


we acknowledge defense. That's why I knock Jeter. However, in left field defense is just not important.

It was important enough for you to suggest that Matsui's poor play cost us a game this weekend.

But sure, you are absolutely right and I fully agree about defense not being top priority for the LF'er. And I don't disagree with your assessment of Jeter's D. But, I've quit arguing that point.

Admittedly I have my biases in baseball and many are tough to argue outside the realm of subjectivity. Thus, I still cling to the notion that some parts of b'ball defy measurement. Naive perhaps, but there you go... I'm an old dog , this is a new trick.

But, I am indeed warming up to sabermetrics.

PS: This smilie was meant to appear at end of first paragraph. Sorry

[AngelAstro]

Originally posted by Allan
Have I even remotely suggested in any of my posts that hitting is not the key factor for LF ( indeed for most positions) ?

No, I suppose you didn't. My mistake, I was just trying to prove my point.

All I'm suggesting is that baseball has many facets. Certainly hitting and pitching are the most important by a long shot. But there are other aspects of the game that the sabermetric camp does not always seem willing to acknowledge.

Exactly which aspects of the game do you think that the sabermetric camp does not acknowledge? I believe they are all acknowledged, though there are some that are believed to be not worth the risk involved.

[Squid]

Originally posted by Dave in MD


Not that defense matters much in left field.

Do you think that the big Death Valley in our left-center field increases the importance of our left-fielder's defense? And is their any quantitative analysis to prove or disprove that?

[AngelAstro]

Originally posted by Squid


Do you think that the big Death Valley in our left-center field increases the importance of our left-fielder's defense? And is their any quantitative analysis to prove or disprove that?

The current dimensions of Yankee Stadium are:

Left field: 318
Deepest left-center: 399
Center field: 408
Deepest right-center: 385
Right field: 314

Death Valley doesn't really exist anymore, so I doubt it makes as big a difference as many would have you believe.