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Thread: Revenge for the Contreras signing

  1. #1
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Revenge for the Contreras signing

    That's what I kind of see the Red Sox acquisition of Schilling as. They very publicly wanted Contreras last year, made him their #1 target, and booked every room in the hotel to keep the Yankees away. Little Boy Theo had a conniption when Jose chose the Yanks

    This offseason the Sox made it a point to keep their offseason priorities quiet. And it was in every major newspaper that George wanted Schilling badly. So when talks died down a bit the Sox came in and grabbed him.

    Maybe the Sox learned from their mistake last season and the Yanks have learned from theirs now?

  2. #2
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    This kind of gamesmenship makes the offseason fun...
    "Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa."
    -George Steinbrenner

  3. #3
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NicktheStick36
    This kind of gamesmenship makes the offseason fun...
    True

  4. #4
    God Bless America!!! :) Jersey Yankee's Avatar
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    George wanted Curt, but not at the price that Colangelo wanted. If he was public about it, that could've just been to force Theo's hand, in spending. Even if they do better next season, that's fine. So long as George's eyes bulge at a player, the Sux will want in on the action also, like a kid bro or sis who wants whatever's on your plate, instead of their own.

    $37.5M is tied up the next few seasons, Peedro's unsigned f/'05, as is Lowe, and they've still gotta sign Nosemah and others. Let Gammons and others talk about this by itself. The more they commit to someone, they less they can commit to others.

    I consider this like a guy trying to pay all his bills, then buys the shiniest car out there. Doesn't make your other bills go away, but does provide you w/temporary idolizing. What happens afterwards?
    Dr King (1929-68) A dream is forgotten unless others carry on.

    Get up ... get up ...; Black Moses (he ain't no chef); Isn't she Lovely? (Aisha); Fear the 'Fro; A slow roller to 1st ...

  5. #5
    Maybe they just put together an attractive offer. Who's to say the Yankees were even big players in this trade scenerio?

    It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. These guys all look out for themselves, not simply to screw the Yankees who are in a different league from them...

  6. #6
    Originally posted by yecul
    It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. These guys all look out for themselves, not simply to screw the Yankees who are in a different league from them...
    I'm sorry, but that's just not possible. You're telling me that two MLB GM's are more interested in building their own teams than in screwing the Yanks? No way!

  7. #7
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by yecul
    It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. These guys all look out for themselves, not simply to screw the Yankees who are in a different league from them...
    Is that why the D-Backs asked the Yankees for Johnson or Soriano for Schilling then wound up shipping him to Boston for a bucket of balls?

  8. #8
    Originally posted by yecul
    Maybe they just put together an attractive offer. Who's to say the Yankees were even big players in this trade scenerio?
    That lying scoundrel Colangelo, when he publicly said he had interest in Nick and Sori, and was admonished by MLB to cease, lest he be fined for tampering.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Rich


    That lying scoundrel Colangelo, when he publicly said he had interest in Nick and Sori, and was admonished by MLB to cease, lest he be fined for tampering.
    Conlagelo is a joke...

    However, he doesn't owe the Yankees anything. Let's put the conspiracy theories to rest. They are baseless.
    "Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa."
    -George Steinbrenner

  10. #10
    Originally posted by NicktheStick36


    Conlagelo is a joke...

    However, he doesn't owe the Yankees anything. Let's put the conspiracy theories to rest. They are baseless.
    It's not a conspiracy, it's revenge. The proof is that he asked the Yankees for more than he received from the Sox.

  11. #11
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    This is part of the reason I hate message boards as a form of communication, because I can't be clear...

    I quoted you to say that I agree with with you on Jerry...

    The conspiracy comment was for any of the people who are screaming "Conspiracy!" in a futile attempt for them to realize it makes them look like a child that had their ball taken away.

    I agree with you on Colangelo. I'd be pissed at George too over the Wells thing, though.
    "Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa."
    -George Steinbrenner

  12. #12
    OK, my bad.

  13. #13
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    Remember that the Red Sox and Yankees compete fiercely against each other. Remember also that the Red Sox and Seattle had a deal ready to go whereby Boston would get Aaron Boone from Cincy and then trade him to Seattle for Freddy Garcia.

    The Boss then ordered Brandon Claussen to be traded to Cincy for Aaron Boone. (I suppose Boston died another death when Boone beat them with the homer.) But all of that is part of the cat and mouse game the Yankees and Red Sox play.

    Theo gets wind of Boss Steinbrenner making a play for Schilling and decides he'd better get him for his own team. I'm okay with it. Our Commander and Chief, General George Steinbrenner will make sure he reinforces the troops. If Boston's acquisition of Schilling make George go out and sign Andy and Colon then get ARod without losing anyone of consequence, we'll be better off in this game of chess, wouldn't you say???
    Rocky Colavito was a colorful ballplayer that I would love to see in the Hall of Fame. He had a rifle of an arm and hit 374 lifetime home runs, none of them with a corked bat, either. He finished his career as a member of the New York Yankees and retired the same year as Mickey Mantle.

  14. #14
    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...-oconnor_x.htm





    Dislike between two men aids Red Sox

    Payback is a hitch. A hitch in George Steinbrenner's plans to replace Roger Clemens with the very ace Clemens once saved from slackerdom, Curt Schilling, a soft, jowly underachiever until that day the Rocket lit his fire with a pep talk that would've made a proud general out of Steinbrenner's idol, George Patton.

    As a new man who credited Clemens for selling him on a commitment to excellence, Schilling helped the Arizona Diamondbacks beat the Rocket and the Boss in the World Series. Fair enough. The New York Yankees already had their three-peat.

    But naming your son Gehrig and then shaking hands with the Boston Red Sox while rejecting a chance to fill Clemens' locker and pull the Yanks from the rubble of the worst kind of three-peat — three straight years without a parade?

    Something's terribly wrong there. Something that can best be explained by the mutual contempt binding two rich, powerful and competitive men.

    Jerry Colangelo and Steinbrenner can't stand each other, and the sentiment runs far beyond the handshake deal Colangelo had with David Wells before Steinbrenner made like a long, lost love rising up from the back pew of a wedding ceremony to state his objection and ruin the day.

    In peddling Schilling, Colangelo would not demand Alfonso Soriano and Nick Johnson — the Yankees' two best young players — and then accept from the Red Sox Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon and a Pedro Martinez-autographed portrait of Don Zimmer eating the Fenway Park dirt unless he had reason to be so tough on one suitor and so tame on the other.

    Colangelo now says this was straight-up honest business, a claim that isn't worth any more than that David Wells handshake.

    This all goes back to the day Colangelo threw $7 million at Buck Showalter, whom Steinbrenner had run out the door following the 1995 season by demanding that he, the Boss, select the manager's coaching staff. Steinbrenner was hardly thrilled that Colangelo swooped in so decisively, and sent a message to the Diamondbacks' owner through White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf, a message that effectively warned Colangelo he should proceed with caution when picking through King George's trash.

    "Tell George he had his chance with Buck," Colangelo told Reinsdorf.

    "Tell him to go stuff himself."

    The divide between Steinbrenner and Colangelo deepened two years later when the Yankees' owner was willing to run with media reports suggesting that the Diamondbacks were tampering with Bernie Williams long before he hit free agency.

    "I'm aware of all of (Steinbrenner's) comments and second-hand things out there," Colangelo told me in phone interview on Feb. 20. 1998. "But the funny thing is he's never said anything to my face. He sees me and just shakes my hand. I won't lower myself into the kind of contest I'm told he likes.

    "When my name was mentioned as an expansion candidate, George...was a very strong proponent of mine. But as soon as I signed Buck, our relationship changed."

    Colangelo was back on the phone three days before his Diamondbacks began playing the Yankees in the 2001 World Series, and this time he was claiming a bridge had been built between his world and Steinbrenner's. After the Yankees' owner actually said, "I love Colangelo; he's one of my favorite guys" and engaged the Diamondbacks' owner in a friendly pre-Series conversation, Colangelo was eager to play along.

    "George told me he knew we'd play sooner rather than later in the World Series," he said then, "because he looks at me as the kind of competitor he is, and that's a nice compliment. I have a great deal of admiration for George and the winner that he is.

    "On Bernie, there was never anything to that tampering stuff and I eventually told George just that and there were no hard feelings, Buck was a different story. George let Buck go and after the fact he had second thoughts. He wanted to get Buck back but he'd already committed to (Joe) Torre.

    "So I didn't do anything inappropriate. Buck was in a free marketplace. Maybe George had a different idea about that then, but it's over with."

    Oh no it wasn't, not by a longshot. When Wells left his Arizona recruiting visit following the 2001 season, he grabbed Colangelo's hand and agreed to agree on a contract. The signing was supposed to be a formality, at least until Wells broke bread with Steinbrenner and jumped at his former employer's offer to return to the Bronx.

    Wells would explain his desert double-cross by saying he never signed any document. "That's kind of wishy-washy," Colangelo would counter. "But that's OK. He's got to live with it, not me."

    That 'he' was meant for Steinbrenner, too. It took Colangelo two years to pay back Steinbrenner with interest, but Schilling represented the perfect vehicle of retribution. The right-hander wasn't just the man who helped topple Steinbrenner's dynasty, and wasn't just the man who could make the Red Sox the actual favorites in the American League East.

    Schilling was also the man who said this of Yankee lore: "When you use the words 'mystique' and 'aura,' those are dancers in a nightclub."

    Schilling delivered this priceless (if scripted) quote before Arizona made a little magic of its own. And now?

    "He'll be a king and a hero if they can win a World Series in Boston," Colangelo said of Schilling.

    Yes, Martinez to Schilling to Lowe could be Boston's answer to Tinker to Evers to Chance, a relay that will connect the last Red Sox championship in 1918 to the next one in 2004.

    The Sox didn't lose out on Schilling like they lost out on everyone from Jose Contreras to Bernie Williams to Babe Ruth. Colangelo hand-delivered them a slam-dunk trade, gave them 72 hours of quality time with Schilling, and would've granted a half dozen deadline extensions to Larry Lucchino, an executive Steinbrenner loathed long before he called the Yankees the "evil empire."

    "I guess I hate the Yankees now," Schilling said at his Friday night news conference.

    The owner who traded him? The evidence suggests Jerry Colangelo doesn't hate the Yankees, just the man who owns them.

  15. #15
    A new year, a new era penguin4's Avatar
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    Yes, Martinez to Schilling to Lowe could be Boston's answer to Tinker to Evers to Chance, a relay that will connect the last Red Sox championship in 1918 to the next one in 2004.
    Interesting column, but doesn't he know that Tinkers-to-Evers-to-Chance was the Chicago Cubs' double play combination (and that it had been long defunct by the time the Cubs played the Sox in 1918)?
    "You aint my b!tch, n!gga! Buy your own damn fries!" -- Barack Obama

  16. #16
    Originally posted by pacewon


    Is that why the D-Backs asked the Yankees for Johnson or Soriano for Schilling then wound up shipping him to Boston for a bucket of balls?
    You're making it sound like there were only two possible trades on the table here.

    Isn't it possible that the D-backs first asked Theo for Trot Nixon, Kelly Shppach, and Hanley Ramirez?

    Isn't it possible that Cashman is at fault here for not going back to the Dbacks with a counter offer (something less than Johnson/Soriano)?? Couldn't he have offered Ted Lily - oh wait, he traded him for Jeff Weaver. Or what about Claussen, oh ... Boone.

    There is no conspiracy, there was no spite or malice involved... bottom line - Theo ran circles around Cashman.

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    HLTD, what are you smoking? Are you really midget Lupica? We would've heard if Arizona asked for good player from Boston. The fact is they didn't.

  18. #18
    Originally posted by YankyDave
    HLTD, what are you smoking? Are you really midget Lupica? We would've heard if Arizona asked for good player from Boston. The fact is they didn't.
    Why would we have heard?

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by hugelongtermdeal


    Why would we have heard?
    Because it would fit with paranoid conspiracy theorists arguments
    "Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa."
    -George Steinbrenner

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    It's no paranoia. If you actually think that the Yanks were offered an equal deal and that Bud Selig doesn't despise the Yankees then you're delusional.

  21. #21
    Originally posted by YankyDave
    It's no paranoia. If you actually think that the Yanks were offered an equal deal and that Bud Selig doesn't despise the Yankees then you're delusional.
    The yanks weren't "offered" anything. Why would they be? Wouldn't the Yanks be the ones doing the "offering". After the D-backs asked for NJ and Soriano, what did Cashman do, pack his bags and leave?? Shouldn't he have offered something else --- maybe a lesser package?

    Maybe I'm delusional... but that doesn't change the fact that Cashman blew it.

  22. #22
    Originally posted by NicktheStick36


    Because it would fit with paranoid conspiracy theorists arguments

    Agree.
    Last edited by hugelongtermdeal; 12-01-03 at 08:22 AM.

  23. #23
    Originally posted by hugelongtermdeal


    After the D-backs asked for NJ and Soriano, what did Cashman do, pack his bags and leave??

    Pretty much, and it was the right thing to do. Only a moron would give up 2 rising young stars for a 37 year old pitcher.
    ~John

  24. #24
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hugelongtermdeal
    Isn't it possible that the D-backs first asked Theo for Trot Nixon, Kelly Shppach, and Hanley Ramirez?

    Isn't it possible that Cashman is at fault here for not going back to the Dbacks with a counter offer (something less than Johnson/Soriano)??
    Isn't it possible that the D-Backs did not first ask for Nixon, Shppach (?) and Ramirez?

    Isn't it possible that Cashman did go back with a counteroffer but Colangelo tuned it out because he hates Steinbrenner and would love to give the Sox Schilling for nothing?

    It seems like you're telling people that they've come up with hypothetical situationss, then you make up hypothetical situations yourself.

  25. #25
    Originally posted by pacewon


    Isn't it possible that the D-Backs did not first ask for Nixon, Shppach (?) and Ramirez?

    Isn't it possible that Cashman did go back with a counteroffer but Colangelo tuned it out because he hates Steinbrenner and would love to give the Sox Schilling for nothing?

    It seems like you're telling people that they've come up with hypothetical situationss, then you make up hypothetical situations yourself.
    yes
    anything is possible
    ummm.. ok.

  26. #26
    Don't look at me like that smr15's Avatar
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    Just curious.

    Am I the only one who's getting a little tired of the sarcastic, snotty and condescending responses from fans of other teams on this and other threads?

    Go ahead.
    Post another freakin' laughing/smilie face, or a rolleye smilie face.

    It's just so appreciated that you all would stoop to talk with NY fans and get them to see the light of your superiority.

    Gimme a break.
    .Of all the things in life I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

  27. #27
    Released Outright ACPS's Avatar
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    Originally posted by smr15
    Just curious.

    Am I the only one who's getting a little tired of the sarcastic, snotty and condescending responses from fans of other teams on this and other threads?

    Go ahead.
    Post another freakin' laughing/smilie face, or a rolleye smilie face.

    It's just so appreciated that you all would stoop to talk with NY fans and get them to see the light of your superiority.

    Gimme a break.
    They register and post to remind us that they're still in our heads.

  28. #28
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by smr15
    Just curious.

    Am I the only one who's getting a little tired of the sarcastic, snotty and condescending responses from fans of other teams on this and other threads?

    Go ahead.
    Post another freakin' laughing/smilie face, or a rolleye smilie face.

    It's just so appreciated that you all would stoop to talk with NY fans and get them to see the light of your superiority.

    Gimme a break.
    Thank you, because that soooooo needed to be said

  29. #29
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    It would be a tragedy on an epic scale if there were ever an opposing, outside viewpoint. God forbid if the myopia were even momentarily derailed.

    ***************Smilie alert*****************



    :rolleyes:

  30. #30
    Don't look at me like that smr15's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Pedro's cuff
    It would be a tragedy on an epic scale if there were ever an opposing, outside viewpoint. God forbid if the myopia were even momentarily derailed.

    ***************Smilie alert*****************



    :rolleyes:
    Are you purposely being obtuse?

    Because it's not EVERY post that's objectionable.... I have NO problem with opposing view points.

    I DO, however, object to those replies that are SNOTTY in their tone, and use smilies to 'LAUGH' at the opposing viewpoint... as if we're a bunch of assholes.

    God forbid if you were objective and took two seconds to UNDERSTAND the point I am making.

    {insert whatever smilie you care to at this point... and I think you know where you can insert it.......}

    (Yes, and I DO know I will hear from a moderator for this and possibly be banned, but what the heck. Score one for your side.)

    - Sue
    .Of all the things in life I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

  31. #31
    Giambi-bashing bewilders me pacewon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Pedro's cuff
    It would be a tragedy on an epic scale if there were ever an opposing, outside viewpoint. God forbid if the myopia were even momentarily derailed.

    ***************Smilie alert*****************



    :rolleyes:
    That's not what smr15 was referring to, as there are several good fans of other teams here who are always welcome and always add nothing but positives to conversations.. It's the condescending tone that most fans of other teams come in here and use. Apparently they're not good enough to stay on the boards of their own team so they come here and act like they're better than everyone else. It's comical but at the same time annoying

  32. #32
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    I must have missed the meaning within the meaning.

    Obtuse? okay.

  33. #33
    Originally posted by smr15
    Just curious.

    Am I the only one who's getting a little tired of the sarcastic, snotty and condescending responses from fans of other teams on this and other threads?

    Go ahead.
    Post another freakin' laughing/smilie face, or a rolleye smilie face.

    It's just so appreciated that you all would stoop to talk with NY fans and get them to see the light of your superiority.

    Gimme a break.

    You are correct ... I do apologize for the sarcasm.

    However, it does seem that most here are unwilling to consider an alternative hypothesis (outside of conspiracy) re: how this deal went down.

  34. #34
    Ummmm can it be that the Dbacks wanted Fossum ( Lefty that Throws in the upper 90's) Lyons ( Respectable Middle Man ) De La Rosa ( Redsox #1 pitching prospect)?

    Can it also be that Cashmen's not as creative as Theo & that theo hasbeen out working Him since the summer? Can it also be that the Yankees ignore working on Their Farm system that's why Their System is # 30 while the Sox System is # 21? Plus the Dbacks never asked for Johnson & Soriano Colangelo told Them that as a joke & the Yanks didn't pursue Schilling anymore . Please realize that Theo's turning into the GM Cashmen has always wanted to be just look at what he did in His 1st season as GM...

  35. #35
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    Uh, you do know what the Yankees did in Cashman's first year don't you? In Theo's first year, he lost to Cashman's team.

    Also, Fossum isn't half the pitcher Theo thought he was last off-season and he was easily expendable.

  36. #36
    Yankydave ask around everybody knows that Theo's a better GM right now + Theo invested a team that didn't make it to the Playoofs a YR before & pushed Them to the ALCS . Don't get me wrong Cashmen's a good GM but I would like to see what He would do with a $100 Mill per yr team atleast.

    We all know that if Theo gets $180 mill+ to play with the Sox would be very scary...

  37. #37
    Released Outright ACPS's Avatar
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    Nah, he'd probably use it to buy an X-Box.

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    If I ask around outside of Chowda Town, I'm not so sure. Theo may have taken over a team that missed the playoffs but they only won 2 more games this past season.

    Also, when Cashman goes to make a trade, he automatically has to give up more than Theo. When the Yanks got Clemens, they gave up Wells and Lloyd. That's certainly a higher price than Theo paid for Schilling.

  39. #39
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    I started a thread here this morning, ("The Feeble Empire Strikes Back!"), and in it I requested that Boston fans and the rest of the baseball WAIT until "Young Theo the Boy Genius" actually accomplishes something/ ANYTHING before crowning him KING of the GM world. Cashman has a hand full of rings. Cashman deals with the most difficult and demanding owner in sports. Cashman will NEVER worry about employment in the baseball world. All Theo Epstein has to show for his first year is another TRAGIC memorable LOSS of biblical proportions to the hated N.Y. Yankees!

    Talk about PRESSURE??????

    If the Red Sox come up short THIS year, we'll see see Epstein's stock plummet faster than Enron's.

    BTW: I personally LOVE having Red Sox fans posting here. It keeps us from abusing EACHOTHER too much. As long as things are kept civil, I love bantering with our arch-enemies. The Red Sox fans MUST be great to stick with a team that hasn't won a ring since Rameses was Pharoah.
    I salute you, your loyalty, Red Sox Fans.


    Battah-Bhing!

  40. #40
    Originally posted by YankyDave
    Also, when Cashman goes to make a trade, he automatically has to give up more than Theo.

    YD, this simply isn't true. You can type it 1000 more times, and it still won't be true.

  41. #41
    Can it be that the Yanks have no farm system that's why it gets hard for Cashmen to make a trade I mean the Yanks Farm system ranks at # 30 while the Bostons ranks in at # 21 .

  42. #42
    Originally posted by PedroSchill!!
    Can it be that the Yanks have no farm system that's why it gets hard for Cashmen to make a trade I mean the Yanks Farm system ranks at # 30 while the Bostons ranks in at # 21 .
    Is that #21 before or after the Shilling trade? My guess is before. Not exactly something to crow about.
    ~John

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