Millwood MAY be available

[YanksRockMan]

Don't start, but I am putting millwood on the bait, but only if someone here is willing to give up an offensive weapon (15-16+ HRs....50+ RBIs) for him. I know people will say, "You're giving up a person who hasn't had good starts in a while." Yes I know, but look at his season so far. Included in his credentials is a no-hitter this year, devastating pitches, and a proven pitcher.

If you would like one Millwood (steve, you already don't have anybody I want, just to let you know), send a proposal.

Don't give me any ................ about this, I want offense, that's all.

-pete

[Bozidar]

do you mean someone who already has 15 HRs and 50 RBIs, or someone who will finish with that?

[Big_E]

Originally posted by Bozidar
do you mean someone who already has 15 HRs and 50 RBIs, or someone who will finish with that?

ROFL I was going to ask the same question!

[Big_E]

Seriously though...Millwood (or any pitcher) is not worth a 30-40 HR, 100-120 RBI guy in this league. I know you and I have had this discussion before, but look at the facts:

Millwood this year: 209 points
Jimmy Rollins (4 HR, 32 RBI, 19 Doubles, 9 SB, 21 BB) has earned 220.5 points

Now in real life, you might not trade Millwood for Rollins...but in OUR LEAGUE it's a fair swap.

Furthermore, someone like:
Austin Kearns (15 HR, 57 RBI, 11 2B, 39 BB) has earned 266 points this year, or 27% more than Millwood has earned thus far...Millwood's a great pitcher, no doubt, but he's not a keeper, and in this league he's not worth more than Jimmy Rollins.

ETA: I said Schilling in this thread and meant MILLWOOD.
:rolleyes:

[Saxmania]

Actually, Schilling's worth a lot more than Rollins in this and any other league, because of position scarcity. Rollins' production is easy to replace; Schilling's is not.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Hitman23]

Originally posted by Big_E
Seriously though...Schilling (or any pitcher) is not worth a 30-40 HR, 100-120 RBI guy in this league. I know you and I have had this discussion before, but look at the facts:

then why did we go Giambi for Mulder??

[Big_E]

Originally posted by Hitman23

then why did we go Giambi for Mulder??

I didn't go Giambi for Mulder.

My one trade this year was Randy Johnson and Byung-Hyun Kim for Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz.

[Yankchic22]

Steve get confused sometimes.....

.... I think its the voices

[Hitman23]

Originally posted by Big_E
I didn't go Giambi for Mulder.

My one trade this year was Randy Johnson and Byung-Hyun Kim for Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz.

ok smack me. someone, please.

[Yankchic22]

I voulenteer

[Big_E]

Smacks himself for typing SCHILLING when I meant MILLWOOD. (Edited my posts above...)

Schilling has been worth only 177.5 points this year, for the record. It's Millwood with the 209.

[Big_E]

Originally posted by Saxmania
Actually, Schilling's worth a lot more than Rollins in this and any other league, because of position scarcity. Rollins' production is easy to replace; Schilling's is not.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

True. Though as people pointed out every time we listed TSN rankings...we don't use those in this league. People look at points when evaluating a deal.

I'm bored, so I figured out the pitchers rankings this year. The Top 54 (3 pitchers per NYYFans.com team):

Stats:

---

1	Jason Schmidt	288.5

2	Esteban Loaiza	280.2

3	Roy Halladay	277

4	Mark Mulder	271.9

5	Kevin Brown	260.7

6	David Wells	251.9

7	Hideo Nomo		249.2

8	Mark Prior		239.2

9	Woody Williams	238.5

10	Matt Morris	234.4

11	Kerry Wood		234

12	Mike Mussina	233.7

13	Bartolo Colon	226.4

14	Cory Lidle		219.2

15	Randy Wolf		218.9

16	Shawn Chacon	218.7

17	Jamie Moyer	217.7

18	Barry Zito		216.9

19	Kevin Millwood	209

20	Sidney Ponson	206

21	Eric Gagne		204.7

22	Roger Clemens	204.2

23	Russ Ortiz		200.7

24	Ben Sheets		188.9

25	Kyle Lohse		188.4

26	Freddy Garcia	187

27	John Smoltz	186.5

28	Javier Vazquez	184.2

29	Kaz Ishii		183.7

30	Keith Foulke	182.9

31	Joel Piniero	181.2

32	Tim Hudson		178.7

33	Curt Schilling	177.5

34	Miguel Batista	174.5

35	Derek Lowe		173.9

36	Octavio Dotel	172.5

37	CC Sabathia	172

38	Pedro Martinez	167.7

39	Carlos Zambrano	165.9

40	Ryan Franklin	165

41	Jake Peavy		164.9

42	Billy Wagner	161.4

43	Mark Redman	159.2

44	Kirk Rueter	157.2

45	Rocky Bidle	156.2

46	Ramon Ortiz	154.9

47	Greg Maddux	152.7

48	Tim Wakefield	152

49	Jason Jennings	151.9

50	Jarrod Washburn	149.2

51	Brad Penny		147.4

52	Andy Pettitte	146.2

53	Al Leiter		137.5

54	Johan Santana	137.2

---

Stats are approximate since I didn't change the .1 to .33 and the .2 to .67

[Bozidar]

4 of my top 5 are in that list. Mays doesn't make it. Woody is up there, but he's not in the top 5..

[Saxmania]

Hey, there's three relievers in the top 30! That's really good to see - I had no idea that a dominant closer could be quite that valuable in fantasy terms. Thanks, Big_E.

As I say, position scarcity is the key, which is why evaluating a trade based in points value is interesting but not iron-clad. I can get 100 points from any waiver-wire OF, but a pitcher who creates 100 is more valuable because of scarcity.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Ansky39]

Originally posted by Big_E
Seriously though...Millwood (or any pitcher) is not worth a 30-40 HR, 100-120 RBI guy in this league. I know you and I have had this discussion before, but look at the facts:

Millwood this year: 209 points
Jimmy Rollins (4 HR, 32 RBI, 19 Doubles, 9 SB, 21 BB) has earned 220.5 points

Now in real life, you might not trade Millwood for Rollins...but in OUR LEAGUE it's a fair swap.

Furthermore, someone like:
Austin Kearns (15 HR, 57 RBI, 11 2B, 39 BB) has earned 266 points this year, or 27% more than Millwood has earned thus far...Millwood's a great pitcher, no doubt, but he's not a keeper, and in this league he's not worth more than Jimmy Rollins.

ETA: I said Schilling in this thread and meant MILLWOOD.
:rolleyes:

just ain't right that a stud ace is less valuable than a mediocre utility player...

we really should revisit this pitching penalty next offseas...

[Bozidar]

Originally posted by Ansky39
we really should revisit this pitching penalty next offseas...

we will

[Saxmania]

Originally posted by Ansky39

just ain't right that a stud ace is less valuable than a mediocre utility player...

Ansky, he really isn't. I know this points structure annoys you, but Millwood is worth a lot more than Rollins because of position scarcity and the possibility that starters can lose points rather than gain them It's two different points scales, and the end results is NOT that Millwood is worth less.

If you think he is, then I'll happily trade you Joe McEwing for Jarrod Washburn. Deal? No, because Washburn is worth a lot more (even with his poor 2003 performance).

Think of it this way - a hitter gets you between 10 and 35 points per week, assuming he's not a complete Tiger. A pitcher gets you between -10 and 30 points per week. Therefore, even though a hitter will on average score more points per week, pitchers are still mightily valuable because you can't have 17 hitters on your team, and those 20 or so points per week an ace pitcher give you are MUCH harder to come by than the 25 points a good hitter will give you. The difference between two teams will still often come down to the pitchers.

I'll say it again - Millwood isn't worth less than Rollins, or Polanco, or Todd Zeile. He just doesn't score points in the same way. Sorry if I get abrupt, but this seems like the fifth time I've explained this concept since the league began. Supply and demand are viable fantasy baseball tools as much as pure points generation.

(On the same line, you could argue that outfielders were overvalued compared to catchers in last year's fantasy league, because they scored more points on average. But because the best-hitting catchers are so rare, that IN ITSELF raises their value to be higher than an OF who hits the same value. Who's a more valuable player - Paul LoDuca or Ellis Burks? It's LoDuca, because of position scarcity. Same thing here.)

That being said, we will be revisiting points scoring for pitching in the 2004 league, and you're welcome to join the conversation we've been having in the Ideas and Feedback for 2004 thread - which is why it's there. Big_E and some others have come up with some very good analytical tools to evaluate points-scoring regimes, and we've got some good ideas already. That's the place for this discussion.

Disclaimer - this reply may be copied and pasted into future threads, because I can see this happening again . . .

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[Ansky39]

Originally posted by Saxmania


Ansky, he really isn't. I know this points structure annoys you, but Millwood is worth a lot more than Rollins because of position scarcity and the possibility that starters can lose points rather than gain them It's two different points scales, and the end results is NOT that Millwood is worth less.

If you think he is, then I'll happily trade you Joe McEwing for Jarrod Washburn. Deal? No, because Washburn is worth a lot more (even with his poor 2003 performance).

Think of it this way - a hitter gets you between 10 and 35 points per week, assuming he's not a complete Tiger. A pitcher gets you between -10 and 30 points per week. Therefore, even though a hitter will on average score more points per week, pitchers are still mightily valuable because you can't have 17 hitters on your team, and those 20 or so points per week an ace pitcher give you are MUCH harder to come by than the 25 points a good hitter will give you. The difference between two teams will still often come down to the pitchers.

I'll say it again - Millwood isn't worth less than Rollins, or Polanco, or Todd Zeile. He just doesn't score points in the same way. Sorry if I get abrupt, but this seems like the fifth time I've explained this concept since the league began. Supply and demand are viable fantasy baseball tools as much as pure points generation.

(On the same line, you could argue that outfielders were overvalued compared to catchers in last year's fantasy league, because they scored more points on average. But because the best-hitting catchers are so rare, that IN ITSELF raises their value to be higher than an OF who hits the same value. Who's a more valuable player - Paul LoDuca or Ellis Burks? It's LoDuca, because of position scarcity. Same thing here.)

That being said, we will be revisiting points scoring for pitching in the 2004 league, and you're welcome to join the conversation we've been having in the Ideas and Feedback for 2004 thread - which is why it's there. Big_E and some others have come up with some very good analytical tools to evaluate points-scoring regimes, and we've got some good ideas already. That's the place for this discussion.

Disclaimer - this reply may be copied and pasted into future threads, because I can see this happening again . . .

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

sax we clearly have a philosophical difference here... i appreciate and understand your take, i just cannot endorse it...

in baseball at every level pitching is more valuable than hitting w/o reference to the number of available pitchers vs hitters.. the yanks have proven the value of pitching when we won and when we lost, the dbacks have proven heck look at the dodgers, they're proving it and the rangers and arod are living proof...

however in our league a stud ace like millwood has accumulated less points thus contributed less to his team than a mediocre scrub like rollins..

in the majors there is a scarcity of quality arms also, but that is not the reason pitchers are more valuable like you suggest in this league.. they are more valuable because unlike position players they contrubute more to a team's production ie wins, by having the greatest impact on limiting the opposing team's offense... a position player is but 1/9th of the offense, whereas a pitcher is prolly something like 60-70% of the team's dee... a avg innings eating pitcher like appier in reality is more valuable than an above avg bat...

secondly the philosophy of baseball and fanatsy baseball by extension is the team w/ the most points wins... most stats quantify measures of production.. in our league we also detremine value based on measures of production... for batters anyway.. in this league, pitchers are the sole player that loses points based on extrinsic factors like whether they're teammates scored more than the opponenet... batters do not lose points for going 0-4 in a win or loss... but a pitcher that records 7 innings work limits his opponenet to 3 runs w/ 0 k's and a few walks can still end up losing points for his team... there is no correlative penalty for batters... it's like two diffferent scroing schemes one for pitchers where they are penalized and one for batters where they only accrue positive points for positive production... it's out of whack sax, honestly, that's my honest opinion..

now mind you i ain't bitching for this seas, what's done is done, everone's at the same disadvantage, but this ain't baseball where a rollins is contributing more to his teams produiction than a millwood... it don't matter that there are less millwoods available then rollins the point is rollins in his best year could not be as valauble as millwood to a real baseball team and although we call this thing "fantasy" baseball the goal should still be to try and replicate the real game as much as possible...

i'm presently in several leagues on several different softwares w/ different scoring scheme's one simulated the others fanatsy and this is the only league where pitchers are singled out for this kind of penalty...

alright i'm off my soap box... sorry for whining this early in the morning but right oir worng i had to speak my mind... no offense or disrepect to our prestigious loyal dedicated tirelessly hard working honorable commisioner intended sir..

peace and hair grease my brothers...

[YanksRockMan]

Originally posted by Bozidar
do you mean someone who already has 15 HRs and 50 RBIs, or someone who will finish with that?

so far...

I will add another player if needed

[Bozidar]

Originally posted by YanksRockMan
so far...

I will add another player if needed

oh, you would most certainly need to.. Do you think 30HR guys grow on trees? Trading him for an underperforming starter?

[Yankchic22]

Originally posted by Bozidar
oh, you would most certainly need to.. Do you think 30HR guys grow on trees? Trading him for an underperforming starter?

For some reason this post cracked me up.

[Saxmania]

Okay, Ansky, sorry if I gave the impression that I'm angry. I do feel that Millwood is worth a lot more than Rollins, because a starter who churns out 20 points regularly is worth more than a hitter who churns out 25 points regularly, just because the points are harder to find there - like a catcher who churns out 20 points regularly is worth more than an outfielder who churns out 25 points regularly. Same principle.

In this case, penalising bad pitching makes it a little less clear, and certainly I agree that the points scheme this year is less than ideal. It will be changed next year, and the Ideas and Feedback thread is the place to discuss those changes.

But until then, we've got 300-400% more participation, discussion, and smack-talking than last year going on, and I'm enjoying it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

[joltinjo]

I'll take Millwood... if you throw in Erstad. The Phillies need to turn it up a notch if they are going to give Atlanta a run for the money. Plus you have the revenge factor, the Braves felt they would do fine without him. So far they are. But maybe Millwood will come back to haunt them. I like intangables.
Erstad is one of my favorite non-yankees. He's clutch at bat and plays some outstanding defense. I know defense matters not in this league, it's just more fun for me to have players I like on my team.

I always said Thome was available for the right price, and so here he is.
The offers I got for him all season were not even in the "ballpark"
This one I like.... because I like the players.