It doesn't make any sense to me. You hear all this stuff about "strategy" and so forth. I'm sorry, but having the pitcher bat ninth takes so much away from the game. It's almost a sure out. As if having the pitcher lead off an inning is exciting?? That's BS, I'm sorry.
-jim
"Aw honey, you're so pretty. But you've always made decisions like an ugly girl" (US of Tara)
I totally agree. I was surprised to hear that in most places where baseball is played - college, other countries (including Cuba) - the DH is used. The way people go on in this country I thought the NL way was more popular.
When I see a pitcher bat, I'm always afraid he's going to get injured somehow, by swinging, running the bases, getting stomped on, etc. There are just too many chances of injury when pitchers bat (as if the motion of pitching isn't enough to put you on the DL).
I have to disagree. The dh seems so artificial and impure to me. Also, when you have a pitcher batting there is so much more strategizing and managing involved and I think that adds a level of excitement to the game for me. Pitchers don't have to be an automatic out- look atHampton. I remember watching Steve Carlton hit a grand slam when I was a kid- there was something so cool about a pitcher getting his team right back in it.
That being said, I don't really expect or want the American League to get rid of the dh because I like the fact that it is one clear definable rule difference that really separates the two leagues and makes the World Series (and interleague play to a lesser extent) more entertaining and special.
And on a side note, I thought they could have hit Duque ahead of Brosius.
I didn't like the DH rule when it started in 1973, and I still don't. I don't have a problem with managers having to decide when to pull a starter for a pinch hitter, bunting, or pitching around the #8 hitter to get to the pitcher. Back when I was young, that was called "baseball."
I have always been a proponent of the DH because of the NL vs. AL in the World Series. That was before interleague play. I love that the National and American leagues were TWO WHOLLY SEPERATE ENTITIES. Now, with interleague play and everything coming under "Major League Baseball," it's totally different. To draw a parallel, it would be like another NBA sprouted up with different rules and the winners of those leagues playing each other. Now, it's ruined the whole feel of it.
I hope they keep this at least as a distinguishing factor. However, as a true baseball fan, the DH has no place. The choices you have to make - do I hit for my pitcher and take a chance at the run or take him out even though he's pitching well. I mean the strategies are great. Just my opinion. But the conglomeration of Major League Baseball is awful. They are 2 different organizations, two different leagues, but some commissioners don't see it that way.
"We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston. It is understandable, but wrong that he would try to deflect the accountability for his mistakes on to others and to a system for which he voted in favor. It is time to get on with life and forget the sour grapes."
I couldn't agree with you more Jimbo. Last nigh tall I could keep saying was when there were men on and El Duque came up. "well he is out." Sure enough he was. So way to go for whoever made the DH.
The Designated Hitter rule was instituted in the early seventies when the National League seemed to have all the big hitters and the AL felt they had to do something to compete.
Well, that's not the case anymore. The DH sucked in 1973 and it sucks now. If you were watching the 1996 or 1998 World Series (or almost any NL game) you know that baseball is a much more exciting game without this bullsheet provision. Selig is trying to do away with it, but it's an uphill battle due in part to the players union.
I find it interesting that the DH is used worldwide, but that doesn't make it right or proper.
SanFrANSKY
We're Playaz. We're 9. We're Angry.
Base: a certain kind of ball.
Repair these losses...and be a blessing to us.
Much more exciting?? I don't know how you define "exciting", but having an automatic out in your lineup doesn't "excite" me. I know when I go to the ballpark, I HOPE to see a sac bunt or a strikeout every three innings by the pitcher. That's why I buy my ticket!
"Hey daddy, do you think we'll see a sac bunt today?"
-jim
"Aw honey, you're so pretty. But you've always made decisions like an ugly girl" (US of Tara)
That's a wonderfully narrow view of the game of baseball.
SanFrANSKY
Base: a certain kind of ball.
Repair these losses...and be a blessing to us.
Also, the DH was implemented in a pitching-dominated era. Batting Averages were down everywhere and they felt they needed a boost. The NL was superior in hitting. In the NL the BA hovered from .243 to .254 from 69-73. HR's 891-1683 (although 1300 was about average 891 was an aberration). In the AL , same time span BA .230 to .239 (.259 in 73' w/ DH). HR's were 1104 (low) to 1746 (highest). They jumped from 1175 in 72' to 1552 in 73'.
"We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston. It is understandable, but wrong that he would try to deflect the accountability for his mistakes on to others and to a system for which he voted in favor. It is time to get on with life and forget the sour grapes."
I understand your point Jim, but don't you find it exciting when a NL game goes into extra innings and it turns into a duel of the bullpens? Even in the last few world series, I was so proud of the way that our AL bull pen could outmatch all of the NL bullpens later in games. That reveals depth!
I agree with you that the sac bunt way is the way with OUR pitchers in a NL park because our (and all AL) pitchers have little to no emphasis on hitting skills. In the national league, it is mixed up a bit more with some hitting pitchers. Leiter had a hit, Hampton is regarded as a good hitter (and one that would only go to the AL if he were permitted to bat), and there are others. So, I do think you see variety beyond the sac bunt route for AL pitchers. I don't see why pitchers have to be one trick ponies.
The purity element is most persuasive to me. Sure you might not be thinking "I hope I'll see a sac bunt today," but could you imagine being a kid playing little league and being told "AL rules, kid. You pitch so you don't bat!"?
Finally, in college and in high school, the dh is used, but often it is not the pitcher that doesn't bat. There are several instances of major leaguers (like Derek Bell) that pitched, but then had to play other positions for the team so that their bat would be in the lineup for everygame. And the pitchers hit in Cuba- Duque has said himself that he had to bat in Cuba and they reiterated that on Sportscenter.
The DH makes baseball too much like football: the division of labor. I like to see well-rounded, multi-talented players, not guys who do one little job and that's it.
Hey, Jim... I think this topic belongs in another Forum... will you lock it and move it on yourself??
love and snark,
Catherine
Having the pitcher hit does not make "multi-talented, well rounded" players. It makes pitchers go up and do something that 9 out of 10 of them are no good at doing.
Also, are you trying to tell me that WS Game 1 was not exciting because it had the DH? Would it have been more exciting in an NL ballpark? Extra innings are no longer interesting in the American League, simply because there is a DH? That doesn't fly w/ me at all.
And I bring this up, because there is no bigger rally killer than El Duque coming up to bat last night. There is no point to it. I didn't see any "wide viewed excitment" last night that wasn't present in the first two games; if anything there was less.
The DH makes the game more offensive, more exciting. And it doesn't help the pitching, because all it does is wear out the pitcher.
True, I'd like top be able to see the pitcher help out his own team, but most of the time he doesn't. If pitchers could HIT, than it might be okay. But as it is, they don't. There is no excitement in that whatsoever.
And what about the ALCS this year? Are you saying that the late innings in those games weren't managerial chess matches?
The DH doesn't take anything away from the game, it adds to it, IMO.
-jim
"Aw honey, you're so pretty. But you've always made decisions like an ugly girl" (US of Tara)
I'm old school too. Every position should bat. It's a basic skill of the game.
Jim I agree.
SanFransky I seem to remember my hubby agreeing with you!
But I have always thought the DH makes the game more exciting!
Also If You have the Pitcher Bat then your taking a chance on the pitcher getting injured unless hes real good at homeruns!
Nah I like the DH plus it gives the Pitcher Time Out and To Refocus from a Focusedin Inning!!!!!!!
Jeanne
I think every position should be able to have a DH. Got a great fielding, light hitting thirdbaseman? No problem! He only plays the defensive half of the inning and you get Jose Canseco to bat for him. Great fielding first baseman having a down year with the bat? No problem! Have GlenAllen Hill take his place in the batting order. We could expand the rosters and have an offensive nine and a defensive nine. While were at it, since so many pitchers today also can't pitch very well, we could change the rule to two strikes is an out, and any foul ball is an automatic out. Then we could ban weight-lifting, make them all wear high heels, and rename the sport Wussyball.
Sorry. I hate the DH rule.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley
Patrick O, great post. Next thing you know, baseball will become the NFL, with a specialist at each and every task. Maybe the announcers will get us up for a classic confrontation such as this:
"Well Tim, here's O'Shmeary coming up to bat in a pinch hitting role, and you know how tough he can be against daytime fastballs in the month of August."
"Right your are Jim, looks like it's time for a change ... and sure enough they're calling for McDorky out of the pen! As you know, he leads the American League in the category of Stepping Off And Faking The Throw To Third."
Don't you wish everyone had a DH to step in and do their jobs when the going gets rough?
SanFrANSKY
Base: a certain kind of ball.
Repair these losses...and be a blessing to us.
We've seen the shortstop position become a more "complete" position in recent years. What had always been an all glove no bat position now features many excellent hitters. I wonder if the coming years will see better hitting pitchers coming along. Part of the problem with pitchers hitting is that they don't hit in the minors at all so it is something they have completely gotten out of doing. Regardless of what MLB does with respect to the DH the minors will not let pitchers hit because teams have too much invested in them.
Screw the inferior NL and it's no-DH. I'm an American Leaguer and I like the DH...offense baby....offense baby!!!
BOSTON STILL SUCKS!!!!!
WHATEVER YOU DO...DON'T FRAKK IT UP!!!!!
Jim, just because I said that the absence of a dh makes games exciting, it does not mean that, by negative inference, games involving a dh are less exciting. My point is that I like the NL rule because it seems more pure and traditional. I like the DH as well because it involves different strategies and distinguishes the AL from the NL. Without the dh, you lose the fun distinction between the AL and the NL.
I think that it is interesting to hear so many pro-offense viewpoints, too. I like high scoring games at times, but I don't like the way baseball scores are starting to resemble low end football scores on a consistent basis. Also, the Yankees are best at small ball. I found the 3-2 game last night to be exciting and nerve racking. I guess 13-12 would have been interesting as well, though.... right?
As long as I can remember I hated seeing the #8 hitter pitched around so I could watch the pitcher strike out with men on base.
Anyway, EVERYWHERE the DH is the rule, even in Cuba. Only in the NL do they not have it. That gives them an advantage against non-NL pitchers when they have to hit.
Keep the DH.
...out of baseball.Originally posted by Slippery Elm
Keep the DH.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley
If we got rid of the DH where would all of the pwoer hitters go?
That is why we have to keep it?
But then again I like the idea of a pitcher hitting in the 8th spot instead of 9th.
I love good pitching, and I hated the DH rule when it was instituted (alas, I am old enough to remember). However, I've changed my mind. I want other things done to redress the balance between pitching and hitting: enforce the rulebook strike zone, raise the mound, etc. But as previous posters have said, I hate to see the pitcher coming up as a clear rally-killer. And I don't find the NL approach to be "strategy." In fact, it seems to be equally mechanical.
Furthermore, you can't make an analogy between pitchers hitting and position players hitting. The DH has not and will not lead the way to an offensive squad and a defensive squad. There's been no movement in 27 years, and there won't be. Hitting a baseball is said to be the most difficult thing in sports. It takes constant practice against real pitchers (not b.p.), at least for most players. Someone who pitches every five days, or one inning at time, doesn't get the necessary experience to maintain the edge. That's why a pitcher who hits around .200 is considered a "good hitting pitcher."
Spare me, and keep the DH!
I have been a Yankee fan since about 1979. Until then I followed the Dodgers because I live in LA. I grew up with NL baseball and played that way as well. I do enjoy AL ball and I attend 25 games or so at Yankee Stadium. However, when the series starts and we play at the NL park the full enjoyment of the game comes back to me. Sure, most pitchers are not good batsmen in the AL because they never bat. NL pitchers practice the bunt ( another lost art) and there are some not so automatic outs in the NL. The strategy, the planning, the moves makes it all that much more intriguing. It pulls me into the game that much more. I would vote to abolish the DH but that will never happen. Bottom line though, baseball is still the greatest game of all.
When the DH first came about in the 70's I thought it was the greatest thing. I was a fan of the DH until the '96 World Series, specifically, Game 4. Now I would rather see the DH eliminated. Especially with all the watered down pitching.
I'm surprised that the sides of this debate are so evenly matched. By my count it's 7 people for the DH and 9 people against it. I would have figured that those against the DH would far and away outweigh those for it. I wonder if it's as close as it is because most of the people here are Yankees fans and therefore watch AL ball almost exclusively. I also wonder how many of the people here remember the Yankees before the DH (I don't).
For those of you that don't watch any NL ball, I suggest watching a few games next year. It's amazing how much more complex the strategy can get. In the AL it's pretty easy. The starter gets beat around, you take him out. If he's pitching good, you leave him in until he begins to tire, then you take him out. There's a little bit more to it than that, but not much.
In the NL, it's early in the game, the starter is getting beat around, but his spot in the order is coming up next inning. What do you do? Bring in a long reliever and let him bat? Bring in a short reliever and pinch hit for him? Let the starter try to get out of the inning and pinch hit for him?
Or say it's the bottom of the sixth. The starter is pitching a two hit game, but he's thrown 105 pitches and you're losing 1-0. Man on first, 1 out, and the pitcher is up. Do you have the pitcher try to bunt the runner to second hoping that your team can drive in a run from second with two outs and also hoping that the pitcher isn't about to tire out before his next time up? Do you pinch hit for him and hope that your bullpen will pitch as well as the guy you are taking out? Do you let him swing away?
This is just a small sample. It doesn't even address how the opposing team will pitch to you knowing that your pitcher will soon be up (do you put men on base to get to the pitcher? If you do, will they pinch hit for him? Are you hoping they pinch hit for him to get him out of there?). It doesn't address the double switch (if the pinch hitter takes the field, he now takes the pitcher's place in the line up, and the new pitcher takes the line up spot of the fielder that was removed).
No offense to those of you that like the DH. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But the DH didn't add to baseball, it took away from it. It made it easier and it dumbed it down. Even Joe Torre says that the AL is easier to manage in and that playing NL teams is more challenging.
"National League style" baseball was once just known as baseball. It's the baseball that Babe Ruth played. It's the baseball that Lou Gehrig played. Joe D., The Mick, Whitey Ford, Yogi, Scooter, they all played that way. Everyone should have to play the field and everyone should have to bat. That's how you are supposed to play baseball.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley
patrick, thanks for covering the reasons why 'no dh' is known as being more complex. it has nothing to do w/batting the pitcher, but what to do when you pull him out.
since i've always been a yanks fan and most of my life the AL has had a dh i'm more used to it. and for the most part, i've only seen games in NL parks when the yanks were involved, so those games were exciting to me either way. but when i hear people talk about the strategizing,(eg torre, like you said) i think it sounds exciting, as well.
more than anything, though, i like the fact that the DH is main difference between the two leagues. so my vote is to keep it.
~~jl
Patrick,
Please count me again as being opposed to the DH.
Vote Early, Vote Often!
SanFrANSKY
Base: a certain kind of ball.
Repair these losses...and be a blessing to us.
Sorry, SanFrANSKY, only one vote per customer!
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley
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