Could a woman ever make it in the majors ...

[Jersey Yankee]

cman, I'll post to you a very simple question:

Why would you want a woman playing baseball against men, as opposed to playing against women, as have done the various other women athletes I've named so far in powerlifting, tennis, soccer and basketball?

[cman]

Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan

It point is NOT: Modifications or creative solutions can't be made to the minors ML when a Major League female talent has been identified.

It IS: The DEVELOPMENT grounds of baseball like the minors are not female-accessible. Therefore, that extremely rare woman who could conceivably develop into having ML potential has few places to hone the fielding and hitting skills necessary for identification as an ML talent. You can't become ML material in a batting cage or playing softball or on a weekend harball league. You learn ML skills by playing against the best out there.

The closest exception is pitching. For example, Jim Morris ("The Rookie") refined his delivery throwing against high school students. You can work on different pitches, pick-off moves to considerable degree w/o facing the best competition out there. Even more the case for a reliever who doesn't have to go through the lineup a few times. The same just can't be said about hitting or the other position players.

For this reason, in addition to the natural strength advantage to men, I believe if there is a first female ML player, she will be a relief pitcher.

Interesting point.

Along those lines, I suppose after that took place, the accescibility would not be as much of an issue, in much of the same way Nomo's rookie year opened the gates for mainstream Japanese players to come over and play here.

[Jersey Yankee]

Originally posted by cman
Interesting point.

Along those lines, I suppose after that took place, the accescibility would not be as much of an issue, in much of the same way Nomo's rookie year opened the gates for mainstream Japanese players to come over and play here.

You're suggesting we have a co-ed MLB if by chance 1 woman were to play as a RP?

[GoYanks]

I'm not sure I know what to say given the polarized commentary of this thread. This is something that always seems to happen when someone raises the question of whether a woman can do something she hasn't done before in a man's arena.

Interestingly, the woman must always compete with the top players -- at least as good as Barry Bonds, or Mike Piazza instead of Benito Santiago, etc. Maybe we should compare her to Shane Spencer, Ricky Ledee, (or even Drew Henson in the minors ...)

And of course, a woman has already pitched at the professional level in baseball. Not the major leagues, but we all have to start somewhere. Ila Borders (Northern League, Duluth) has her uniform & glove in Cooperstown for being the first woman to start a professional game (7/9/98) and win (7/24/98).

It was sad to see her leave, but she's a lefty & could probably come back a decade from now.

Just an afterthought ... I must be old: doesn't anyone else remember Billie Jean King defeating Bobby Riggs in "the battle of the sexes" in 1973?

[GoYanks]

Who said that Mia, Chamique & Cheryl have chosen to avoid this controversy??? Who gave them the opportunity to enter the other locker room & collect the $$$ there?

Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
That's how, IMO, you get respect. By _EARNING IT_!!! By doing something at a high level of competition and acting like "one of the guys" (no pun intended), not by expecting entry into another league's locker room, as Mia, Chamique and Cheryl have so wisely chosen to avoid.

[KLJ]

Originally posted by GoYanks
I'm not sure I know what to say given the polarized commentary of this thread. This is something that always seems to happen when someone raises the question of whether a woman can do something she hasn't done before in a man's arena.

not sure what you're suggesting, but the "pro" side of the argument has been just as aggressive if not more so than the "con" side..

Interestingly, the woman must always compete with the top players -- at least as good as Barry Bonds, or Mike Piazza instead of Benito Santiago, etc. Maybe we should compare her to Shane Spencer, Ricky Ledee, (or even Drew Henson in the minors ...)

personally, i'd like her to compete with anyone..

Just an afterthought ... I must be old: doesn't anyone else remember Billie Jean King defeating Bobby Riggs in "the battle of the sexes" in 1973?

i remember.. i remember the different rules they had to play by.. i remember king got to use the entire court (including the doubles area) while riggs had to go by the real rules..

[Jersey Yankee]

Originally posted by GoYanks
Who said that Mia, Chamique & Cheryl have chosen to avoid this controversy??? Who gave them the opportunity to enter the other locker room & collect the $$$ there?

You're saying that given the opportunity, any of them would've played with men instead?

Originally posted by GoYanks
Interestingly, the woman must always compete with the top players -- at least as good as Barry Bonds, or Mike Piazza instead of Benito Santiago, etc. Maybe we should compare her to Shane Spencer, Ricky Ledee, (or even Drew Henson in the minors ...)

Just an afterthought ... I must be old: doesn't anyone else remember Billie Jean King defeating Bobby Riggs in "the battle of the sexes" in 1973?

When someone mentions that a woman can "improve the game", then I think they should be compared to other players. I think that in the example I cited, Ichiro Suzuki, he has improved the game, that by his demonstrated playing abilities, not some miracle or he would "magically" improve MLB play simply because he's Japanese. Not one example was offered, despite numerous requests thereto, as to how a woman would "improve the game". I don't expect any to be offered anytime soon, since I've never heard of a game being improved merely by one's gender.

If she were to be a "very competent player", such as Robin Ventura or the like, rather than a superstar, so be it. Once someone mentions that they're going to "improve the game", I think it's reasonable to have higher standards, per the proclamation. If I'm not expected to have higher standards, then the "improve the game" stuff doesn't seem to fly, IMO.

As for Bobby Riggs, I believe I've named himself as well as Billie Jean King several times in this thread. In it, I mentioned that women don't need to play against men anymore, since they can make it on their own. When Billie Jean King won that match, she went on to play and beat other women. She didn't continue playing other men. Women's tennis was highly underrated back then, both in terms of TV viewership as well as the champion's purse size. Her match put women's on the map, after Bobby Riggs had badly beaten other women (Yvonne Goolagong? Margaret Court?).

At present, if you look at Wimbledon, I think the winners for both the men and women each make $850k, while 1st runnerup makes $425k. Back in Billie Jean King's era, I think the women winners had 1/2 or 1/4 the purse size of the men. The much improved respect, equal winner's and runnerups' purse size, household name recognition, print and TV ads showing them are IMO prime examples of what happens when women compete at a higher level against each other. Like Ichiro Suzuki, accomplishment and respect by excelling at an elite level of competition and playing with your own gender certainly hasn't hurt them.

The fact that Billie Jean King went onto play other women, as have Martina Navratilova, Chrissie Evert, Steffi Graff, the Williams sisters are what my point is all about: Why does a woman need to play against men in pro sports? Especially since they can make it on their own two feet, playing against each other. As also previously mentioned, per the cig ad, "You've come a long way, baby". I have no idea why a woman would need to be judged against a man's standard, rather than her own, playing against other women.

FWIW, the "battle of the sexes" was also in horse racing, I think the Triple Crown in the 70s (Ruffian vs Affirmed?), and a woman once entered the Indy 500, but unfortunately had to drop out due to her car being damaged and AJ Foyt (I think it was him) wouldn't lend her his sole spare car.

Speaking of auto racing, another testosterone sport, Top Fuel dragsters (pure nitro) -- the most powerful of all NHRA dragsters -- champion racer Shirley "Cha Cha" Muldowney and her pink dragster challenged and beat the legendary, however aging, Don Garlits, who was responsible for putting the high-revving, deafeningly loud 5,000 HP engines behind the driver, rather than in front, making them infinitely safer. FWIW, those cars did the standing 1/4-mile (standstill to full speed race to 1/4 mile distance) in about 5.8-6 seconds @ 240 mph back in the 70s, whereas they do about 4 seconds @ >310 mph now. Just FYI.

http://www.muldowney.com/ (please read the bio and other links therein)

[-tz]

How about her?



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/sp...31pitcher.html

[NYYDragoon]

This thread makes me .

[penguin4]

Lazarus?

[-tz]

I knew we'd had a thread about this a while back. I found it (using Google Advanced Search). So?

[Jersey Yankee]

How about her?



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/sp...31pitcher.html

Against an independent league? She may as well have played the Newark Bears or the Long Island Ducks.

Send me a PM if you want to see people who are very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about women's baseball & softball.

[penguin4]

Against an independent league? She may as well have played the Newark Bears or the Long Island Ducks.

Um, Brad, aren't the Bears and the Ducks an independent league?

Send me a PM if you want to see people who are very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about women's baseball & softball.

You mean like Justine Siegal? (whom I met a couple years ago -- definitely a pioneer in the sport)

[-tz]

She is only 18. Give her a few years!

[Mr.Muhozi]

i'm sure she could do a better job in our bullpen than some of our guys

[BronxYanks45]

I dont want to see women in the majors, let them play softball. Like someone posted here the WNBA is a joke

[penguin4]

I dont want to see women in the majors, let them play softball. Like someone posted here the WNBA is a joke

Why do women have to play softball instead of baseball? Is there something against women being able to hit the overhand pitch from 60 feet, 6 inches, or run 90 feet? The century-old misconceptions that it's too physically taxing on a woman to play a man's game have been debunked -- a fat person not in shape could play on those dimensions. But for some reason we keep on saying, men have to play baseball, women have to play softball.

There are plenty of other reasons why women in the majors wouldn't work, but this one is the most ridiculous by far.

And the regular NBA is pretty much a joke, too -- only a step below pro wrestling. All spectacle, little actual competition or strategy. You have to watch college if you want the real game.

[NYYDragoon]

Women can play baseball if they want, but not in the MLB.

[-tz]

Why do women have to play softball instead of baseball? Is there something against women being able to hit the overhand pitch from 60 feet, 6 inches, or run 90 feet? The century-old misconceptions that it's too physically taxing on a woman to play a man's game have been debunked -- a fat person not in shape could play on those dimensions. But for some reason we keep on saying, men have to play baseball, women have to play softball.

There are plenty of other reasons why women in the majors wouldn't work, but this one is the most ridiculous by far.

Women can and do play baseball. I'm sure everyone knows about the wartime professional women's league, the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, but there is still organized amateur baseball for women. See the website of the American Women's Baseball Federation.

The question is, has there ever been/will there ever be a woman who could play on the Major League level? And if there were, would she be permitted to?

[NYYDragoon]

The question is, has there ever been/will there ever be a woman who could play on the Major League level? And if there were, would she be permitted to?

No. Why is this a question? Pro sports are separated by gender for a reason; why should baseball be any different?

[yankeebot]

From a rules pov, I believe that women are currently not allowed to play in MLB. Ford Frick officially banned them back in the 50s and I don't think the rule was ever overturned.

Going even farther back, a woman named Jackie Mitchell once struck out Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth but Judge Landis would not allow her to be signed claiming that the sport was too strenuous for women. (Yeah, I was at the HOF recently. )

That said, I believe that if a woman showed enough ability, she would get the chance. I think it's unlikely though. I don't think women generally possess the physical traits that men have that are needed to compete at that level.

[Bronson'sCornrows]

The question is, has there ever been/will there ever be a woman who could play on the Major League level? And if there were, would she be permitted to?

Probably not yet (if I'm wrong show me some stuff, I'd be glad to learn something new), but if there ever is, I don't see why she shouldn't get in. I mean, I see why she won't, I just don't see why she shouldn't.

[teknetic]

The last thing I need to see is a Lisa Leslie clone jumping up and down the field after hitting the first "female homer."

[BronxBaumer]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if this happens at some point.

[4bronxbombers]

Unfortunately I don't think women have some of the physical traits that men have that are needed to compete at the MLB level. I'd love to see it in my time but I doubt it and if a women were able to have the physical traits that men have that are needed, the numbers would be very, very small IMO.

[cyhughes22]

I think it's possible, but highly unlikely. A woman would have to display an otherworldly ability to even get a look because that's the way our society is set up with it's gender roles. Plus for a woman to succeed in major league baseball she would have to have a combination of size and athleticism that I don't think we've ever seen.

[TheInfallibleOne]

Even if it were possible, can you imagine the hate if a late inning pressure situation comes up and she's the tying run at the plate? Do you pinch hit a guy for her? If so, why? If she fails, what do you tell the press?

Do you intentionally walk the guy in front to get to her? Does she always have to bat 9th?
If she's a catcher, and theres a play at the plate, do you lower your shoulder?

Its not like theres a women's league where theyre playing the same game and segregation is the issue, as in Robinson's case. Even the best softball player, is still playing a different game.

[yankeebot]

Even if it were possible, can you imagine the hate if a late inning pressure situation comes up and she's the tying run at the plate? Do you pinch hit a guy for her? If so, why? If she fails, what do you tell the press?

Do you intentionally walk the guy in front to get to her? Does she always have to bat 9th?
If she's a catcher, and theres a play at the plate, do you lower your shoulder?

Its not like theres a women's league where theyre playing the same game and segregation is the issue, as in Robinson's case. Even the best softball player, is still playing a different game.

If a woman ever comes along that is good enough to make a team, she plays the same game the same way. The hate thing is just something that has to be dealt with. There have been women on men's college teams and in independent leagues without it being a big problem. There have been several attempts at women's only baseball leagues in recent years but there's just not enough fan interest to make it work.

Did anyone know that there's been a Women's Baseball World Cup tournament since 2004? Yeah, me neither. Apparently, the US has a team. Go figure.

Anyway, a little bit of poking around shows that there is more activity in women's baseball than I'd imagined. But I still think the odds of a woman ever being good enough to compete with men is slim. And if they ever do, I would suspect it would only be as a pitcher.

[Jersey Yankee]

Um, Brad, aren't the Bears and the Ducks an independent league?

You mean like Justine Siegal? (whom I met a couple years ago -- definitely a pioneer in the sport)

If anyone in an independent league were any good, I believe that they would at least make a try at the Minors. You've gotta consider the competition when saying that someone is awesome. I don't know of anything notable about any independent team, other than Rickey Henderson having previously played for the Newark Bears.

I was referring to a women's baseball subforum of a baseball website where several women are highly knowledgeable about women's baseball, since some have played and taught others. They know the names of players, histories of the teams, kind of pitches, the speeds, where the games are played, who the sponsors are, can give many differences between women's softball and women's baseball. Trust me, you won't find that at many baseball forums.

What I was not referring to was an individual, baseball player and/or otherwise.

[ajra21]

i've played adult cricket for the last decade or so. in that time, we've had a few women play for us. their technique was usually better than the men they were playing with/against; but when it came down to it, they were not able to deal with the higher velocity bowling.

i've also played men's cricket where half my team has been boys below the age of 16. they are much the same: outstanding technique and understanding of how to play the game but then struggled with the strength and power of an adult male; the difference is that these boys will grow up and grow stronger, but the women won't.

fielding often comes into it. the boys and women often have trouble getting in front of ball off the bat when they are only 15 feet from the bat. it either eats them up or knocks them over. there is an element of fear which comes from fielding close to the bat in cricket. for instance, i often field at short extra cover which is similar to your first baseman playing in for the bunt against ryan howard. plus we don't wear gloves.

how all this tranlates into highly skills female baseball players, i'm not specifically sure. i just know their are very few who'd manage it and they'd find it very hard.

[JDPNYY]

...of course not. Where would they go to the bathroom?

[ajra21]

err, in the ladies restroom.

this is cricket. it is civilised.

[NyQuil]

I think a woman with the talent and skill can.

Same thing was said about blacks way back when, so why is this different?

I know I am late to the party here but I had to comment on this.

There is a greater physiological difference between men and women and same sex members of different races.

My short answer is No.

[Yankee Tripper]

I think it would take a special women athleet to make it. The only two positions I could see a women making it as is 2B or P. I think the most likely would be a left hand women who could throw high 80s with really good off speed stuff.

[Hellsing]

LHP reliever? Yes. I think a woman could make it as a LOOGY in the league.

[BronxYanks45]

lets say a women LHP strikes out the side and goes into the dugout to be greated by cheering teammates. Is a slap on the ass considered sexual harrasment?

example:

[BigCheese]

It's possible, but highly unlikely (MLB rules aside).

Considering that the MLB represents the most talented baseball athletes in the world, we can guess that MLB players are multiple standard deviations
above the statistical average in terms of "baseball ability."

(In a standard Gaussian distribution, 5 standard deviations above the mean have a frequency of ~ 1 in 3.5 million... let's run with that)

It's indisputable that the average woman's physical ability is lesser than an average man's. Therefore, if a woman was to have MLB-level talent, she'd have to be all the more capable than her female peers... hence, all the more rare, maybe an extra standard deviation above the female mean (6 standard deviations above the mean is about 1 in an billion).

Simply put, the "Albert Pujols" of female players (in terms of rarity) would be a below average (or at best, average) MLB player.

Is it possible for her to make it? I suppose so, but it is unlikely. On top of having the right physical talent, she'd have to work her way through almost insurmountable logistical challenges... proving herself over-and-over through a callus minor league system. Talent isn't enough, it also takes drive and determination, even more so in THIS situation. Plus, she'd have decline other, more potentially lucrative options as a superlative female athlete (WNBA?).

If it did happen, I'm guessing she'd be a LOOGY, kind of like Mike Myers. The league has had many lefties that throw in the mid-80's. Given all the left-handed females out there, there's a reasonable chance a good, mid-80's submarining pitcher could emerge worthy of the MLB.

It's less likely that she'd be a position player, simply because women are generally not as fast as men; their frames are anatomically built for child-bearing, rather than speed.

NOTE: Confounding the issue is the tricky task of gender determination, which gets "gray" in certain areas due to chromosomal abnormalities and genetic mutations (SRY gene, etc). This is actually a continuing problem at the Olympics.

In this case, a would-be MLB player might technically be a female, but she sure as heck wouldn't look like Geena Davis.

[Yankee Tripper]

lets say a women LHP strikes out the side and goes into the dugout to be greated by cheering teammates. Is a slap on the ass considered sexual harrasment?

example:

[Peanut]

I would think like any athletics it would be very difficult for a women elite athletes to compete against male elite althletes...they just generally aren't as strong. Maybe a woman knuckleballer could make it to the MLB, since thats not really about strength, but it still seems unlikely.

[ieddyi]

From a rules pov, I believe that women are currently not allowed to play in MLB. Ford Frick officially banned them back in the 50s and I don't think the rule was ever overturned.

Going even farther back, a woman named Jackie Mitchell once struck out Lou Gehrig and Babe Ruth but Judge Landis would not allow her to be signed claiming that the sport was too strenuous for women. (Yeah, I was at the HOF recently. )

That said, I believe that if a woman showed enough ability, she would get the chance. I think it's unlikely though. I don't think women generally possess the physical traits that men have that are needed to compete at that level.

Seems like the Japanese knuckleballer has hit the sweet spot for opportunity.

Look @ Wakefield- bad back and torn rotator cuff and yet Terminator like he still takes the mound.

Hey, she's probably bigger than Lil" Dusty

[BronxYanks45]

my $0.02

-Can a women play in the majors? I dont see why not but realistically probably only position is pitcher and she'd have to have an amazing arm.

-Will women ever play in the majors? No, and I hope they don't.

[Yankee Tripper]

my $0.02

-Can a women play in the majors? I dont see why not but realistically probably only position is pitcher and she'd have to have an amazing arm.

-Will women ever play in the majors? No, and I hope they don't.

Why? If she is capable and better than the man she is replacing, I'd want her playing.

If it was just a gimick like Eddie Gadell and his 1/8th jersey I'd prefer they skipped that sideshow, but if she earned it I'd love to see that.

[parkerstrong]

If she can throw the knuckleball well, she has a good chance. I can't see a position player doing it or a woman being successful unless she has a gimmick like the knuckeball.

[Carbon Fiber]

I really hope it happens. I have the crystal ball. 2015 Julie Darkins makes the Royals as a left handed reliever. She throws low 80s junk balls. She has an unusual delivery that imparts odd movement on her pitches (not too dissimilar from some current MLers like Okajima et. al)... She has some modest success at first, but the league adjusts to her delivery and she's out of the ML after three years.

[ojo]

..and then in 2017 the first suit is filed demanding tax-supported baseball leagues throughout the country allot space on teams for girls.

[effdamets]

..and then in 2017 the first suit is filed demanding tax-supported baseball leagues throughout the country allot space on teams for girls.

Wouldn't they have to put a tampon dispenser in the locker rooms?

[-tz]

From tonight's Game Thread ...

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showpost.p...&postcount=453

The relief pitcher was ...

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_...193&statType=2

[I'm A Wenner!]

I can't believe that this is a question that people asked.

[sweet_lou_14]

i've played adult cricket for the last decade or so. in that time, we've had a few women play for us. their technique was usually better than the men they were playing with/against; but when it came down to it, they were not able to deal with the higher velocity bowling.

i've also played men's cricket where half my team has been boys below the age of 16. they are much the same: outstanding technique and understanding of how to play the game but then struggled with the strength and power of an adult male; the difference is that these boys will grow up and grow stronger, but the women won't.

fielding often comes into it. the boys and women often have trouble getting in front of ball off the bat when they are only 15 feet from the bat. it either eats them up or knocks them over. there is an element of fear which comes from fielding close to the bat in cricket. for instance, i often field at short extra cover which is similar to your first baseman playing in for the bunt against ryan howard. plus we don't wear gloves.

how all this tranlates into highly skills female baseball players, i'm not specifically sure. i just know their are very few who'd manage it and they'd find it very hard.

There's a great book called Andy Roddick Beat Me With a Frying Pan that I highly recommend to any sports fan. Among the tidbits in that book is some hard data on male vs. female athletic performance. It turns out that an elite male athlete is superior to an elite adult female athlete when he gets to be around 14 or 15. The one exception where an adult female is favored over a teenage male, if I remember the chapter correctly, is endurance (running and possibly cycling as well).

That is not to say an adult woman could never compete in baseball, which requires certain skills that go beyond raw strength, quickness, endurance, etc. But it is eye-opening to see the stark disadvantage that a woman faces when competing among men.

(By the way, a girl is one of the best players on my son's 11 and 12 year old baseball team.)

[djhitman01]

No....Women should just stick to the kitchen and bedroom where they belong. Lol im just kidding for all the ladies on this board...just a joke...i have a sister and a mother so calm down lol.