If they had their own league other than that unthunkable!!!!
If they had their own league other than that unthunkable!!!!
Yankees Are Still the Best in the MLB! Better than ALL the Rest!!!!!
Listen, you're all deluding yourselves if you think that men aren't phyically superior to women due to genetics. It's not a sexist thing, it's just a fact of nature. It's why we have mens leagues and womens league instead of just leagues. If the men and women competed together the women would never win. Think pure athletic ability type sports, like track and field. We're still waiting for a woman to break the 4 minute mile, or the 10 second 100 yards, yet a man isn't even taken seriously if he can't break those times. No world class woman can come near to out long jumping a world class man. Same goes for throwing a javelin or a shot put. No world class woman can come close to out swimming a world class man or out bicyling a man.
It has a hell of a lot more to do with genetic physical superiority than anything else. Men have always been bigger and stronger, and men will always be bigger and stronger. I'm not the strongest guy in the world, but the average woman who is the same height and weight as me would still not be as strong as me. I have a buddy who is 5'4" and not in particularly good shape and I'd be willing to bet whatever you want that he could beat the snot out of 90% of the 5'4" women on this planet. He has greater muscle mass, making him stronger and quicker by nature.
A hundred years from now the fastest men will still be faster than the fastest women. It's just the way we are made.
Singleton thinks a woman would suffer more than Jackie Robinson did. I'm not sure about that. Maybe she would, only because of the times that we're in, people not being as nice as they were years ago.
I think there are women out there who could pitch in the Majors.( Too bad I'm not one of them!) But I don't think there will ever be any women position players! (I never wanted to admit this when I was a younger woman!)
well said.. there is a tone in this thread that sure, there are women that could compete in major league baseball, they just haven't been given a chance.. that's a bunch of milarky.. if there were women that could compete in any professional mens sport, they would be playing in that league.. owners like to win and make money.. being the first to have a woman play on their team would bring in tons of people into the stands.. they would do that in a heart beat..Originally posted by patrick.o
Listen, you're all deluding yourselves if you think that men aren't phyically superior to women due to genetics. It's not a sexist thing, it's just a fact of nature.
Welcome to the 21st Century!!! If you or anyone else believes a woman can play baseball, please start out with which position. No position, she doesn't play baseball. No exceptions!!!Originally posted by cman
I included race only as a reference to some of the same things that were said back before blacks were allowed to play in MLB. Indeed, there is NO difference btwn races, and my contention is there would be none between sexes, as long as you have a woman with the same skill and ability.
As for which woman could hit more jacks then the Babe? Who knows? A woman power-lifter probably could. I saw a philipina gal who could dead lift 500 lbs. No way I could do that!
But there is more to baseball then the long ball. A woman who could run fast, throw far with accuracy, and hit to all fields would be MVP material.
As for 3B? Simply just throwing that out there..be it any postion, C, SS, 1B , or even DH, I dont see a problem as long as she has talent and skill.
I had the privilige of serving with a gal who flew A-10's in Korea - which still is one of the most hostile and unforsaken places on this planet.. if she could sling mud with the boys 200 feet off the deck in a hog and blow up commie tanks, theres no way in hell anyone else can tell me she " is not as strong" as a man or " she cant make it in the majors "
If she has the skill - I say let her step to the plate.
A famous idiot once said " I would take a less- qualified man over a more qualified woman " .. To date, it is one of the most dumb ass comments I have ever heard. ( CSAF McPeak testfying before Congress about Women fighter pilots )
It's the 21st Century ...
If you've looked at the list I gave for powerlifters or used your own knowledge of the sport, 500 lbs isn't that much for powerlifters. 20-25 years ago, Larry Pacifico deadlifted 600-700 at 198 lbs and squatted 700+; Doug Young (who was primarily a bench presser, heaving 600+ lbs) squatted about about 700-800, deadlifting another 700 at 275 lbs bodyweight.
Heaviest lifts I've heard of being hauled (from memory, from "Powerlifting USA" mag (in lbs., not kilos):
Lift / Man / Woman
Squat / 1,050+ / 600
Bench Press / 733 / 400
Deadlift / 950 / ??
Please note, the weights lifted by the women (often in the "Superheavyweight Division" (198+ lbs) were routinely lifted by top men in the 148-165 lb weight division. Lifts listed by men were also in the Superheavyweight Division (>275 lbs).
When I was personally lifting, I maxed out at around 455 one day when I was feeling good, weighing around 190 lbs. What does your own strength have to do with what "a woman" can do? I think that the heaviest lift a man has ever deadlifted is almost 1,000 lbs. There are men in the 148 lb weight division who can deadlift 600 lbs. I used to read "Powerlifting USA" and there was one guy who weighed 132 but deadlifted 660, 5 times his bodyweight.
Does that Filipino woman weigh 132 lbs and lift 5x her weight? Know any women who can bench 600 lbs. at 198 bodyweight like Mike McDonald has done? Any that can squat 880 at 181 lbs like Mike Bridges has done?
As far as sports, if strength were all there was to it, why aren't these male (or female) powerlifters playing baseball? Simple: baseball is a sport which requires playing a position and using your noodle to figure out how to stop your opponent defensively and get hits offensively. Nothing there remotely relevant about squats, bench presses or deadlifts.
We're not talking about massive power or marathon runners here, we're talking about people who can compete in a BASEBALL GAME. They need the physical stamina, they need the experience and the _WISDOM_ to do so. If they don't have this and someone showing them what to do, they don't get in and they don't win. Plain and simple.
For the multi-talented woman who could throw at distance accurate, hit to all fields, patience at the plate, etc., fine, but where is she? Again, what position does she play? Is she fast? Does she misposition herself and has to use her speed, or does she position herself well based upon where the batter is likely to hit the ball? Speed by itself is horsepower, like a car with a fat engine. Knowing what to do to avoid so much horsepower is brainpower, like streamlining a fast car. That's brainpower + experience, not just physical athletics.
You say the woman can play any position if she's got talent and skill? NJ had talent and skill last year. So does Drew Henson. Does that mean they're ready to be called up or almost ready? Talent is great, skill is great, but if they can't prove themselves in the mnor leagues against grown men, how can they make it in the majors?
Look at college basketball. Guys come up to the NBA, they realize the defense is stifling, much moreso than it was in college. Back to baseball. Between pickoff attempts if she gets on base, having to bust it out of the box to even get on base, acrobatic midair spins if she's a SS, just having "talent and skill" means _ZERO_ to me unless she can compete at that same level in a _BASEBALL_ sense of things.
As for your friend flying the A-10s in Korea, fine. Aren't most commercial airline pilots retired military pilots around 40+ years old? You think they could play baseball, too?
You know any wrestlers playing in the MLB? What did superathlete Michael Jordan (called the greatest NBA player ever by Bill Russell) do in the minors? He hit <.200, that's what he did, _PROVING_ that athletics by itself, even in a cardio-intensive sport like basketball, won't cut it. How come there aren't any Ironman tri-athletes (2 miles swim, 100 mile bike race, 26.2 mile marathon) playing baseball or Olympic skiiers or Olympic runners? You know why not? Here's why:
Baseball is a sport where you have to _THINK_ about advancing runners, stopping them from running of you're in the field, giving hitters a ball they think they can hit but can't, throwing the man out, catching the man, making the DP work. IOW, you have to be _GEARED_ for baseball, as intelligence for _OTHER SPORTS_ is 100% _IRRELEVANT_.
You know what that means? You can play other sports but you have to excel at _BASEBALL_. Look at Wilt Chamberlain and the NFL's Jim Brown. They are both highly celebrated athletes who wanted to fight Muhammad Ali. They both backed down after being convinced that they couldn't win. Reason? They weren't geared towards _BOXING_ (Jim Brown also excelled at lacrosse).
If someone is going to succeed at baseball, they must be geared as such. HS, college, minors, majors. Simply being a "superathlete" doesn't mean squat, since people like David Wells and Mo Vaughn can make it in baseball but don't expect the much more svelte Michael Jordan, Roy Jones, Jr or Venus Williams to play baseball anytime either. It simply doesn't work that way, IMO. It's not just _PRESUMED ATHLETIC QUALIFICATIONS_, as you state. It's whether or not the person knows the game and has excelled in it (my real idea of qualifications). BTW, being a superathlete doesn't seem to qualify for baseball skills, IMO. Playing the game well, at a high level and winning against outstanding competition for years on end does, I would add.
Last edited by Jersey Yankee; 05-02-02 at 03:27 PM.
To cman who I just responded to:
IMO, hitting a HR is a matter of hand-eye coordination and making contact, predicting where the ball will be thrown, even digging balls out of the dirt. That's how Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire did their work.
Doing a deadlift (considered a strong lift for the back muscles) is a matter of leverage. You can often outlift another opponent who's stronger if you've got better leverage and stronger hands (though straps (used to prevent the person from having to barehand such a huge weight)) are allowed, including at sanctioned meets and official USA and World records.
HR hitter needs fluidity, since "bat speed" is often mentioned among the better hitters. I consider hauling up a huge poundage to be a combo of leverage and torque. Just like a car engine with 400 HP could never pull an extremely heavy trailer but a truck with 600 HP can pull an 80,000 lb 18-wheeler. It's pulling/turning power.
I don't consider those two related so anyone who's a powerlifter, male or female would need to prove themselves in baseball if they so tried. If they tried being a football player, they'd also need to play a position (say, linebacker) and need the know-how and speed to tackle a QB or stop a rush opposing LB trying to tackle your own QB. This, I believe, again indicates that they would need to have their brains custom-tailored to the _SPECIFIC SPORT_ being mentioned.
You think someone can analyze a play just by being strong? Those X's and O's from the coach's chart come into play and being a super powerlifter alone won't get you there, IMO. With this, the very same powerlifters (male or female) would need to prove themselevs in the NFL also, despite being strength athletes at the highest level.
I don't think so.
And I'm not being sexist. I'm being coldly logical.
There was an experiment with the Coors Light Silver Bullets. They supposedly took the best womens players and played against men. In the beginning they played minor league teams.
Result??? They got smoked. Not beaten, smoked.
I wouldn't mind if there was a lady that was good enough. In fact she'd command my total respect. Maybe she could play second base as thats the only position I can think of to put her. First? Who wants a singles hitter at a power position? 3B? Arm. SS? Arm. Pitcher?? The best Coors pitcher barely was in the 80s.
Outfielder?? Arm. Bernie would have twice the arm of the best lady outfielder.{then again maybe not} A catcher? Forget it. The first time a Bo Jackson type barrelled into her at home plate she would go on the DL. Or worse.
Okay, now all you gals can call me a sexist pig. And I might be, but not for this post.
Casey
No. As patrick o said, men are just superior to women due to genetics.
There is a reason that we have 6'5 and 275lb men in baseball, and not 5'4 and 150lb men. Also, comparing softball and baseball, although they are similar, they are 2 completely different games.
Not superior, Rick, physically superiorOriginally posted by slickrick1234
No. As patrick o said, men are just superior to women due to genetics.
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds - Robert Nesta Marley
Originally posted by patrick.o
Not superior, Rick, physically superior
D'oh!!! I seem to have left myself open for a huge bashing
But, what patrick. o said is what I ment. Sorry if I offended anyone, it's late and my brain is asleep, even though I am not.
Talk about a bitter tanget of a response. You come off as an angry guy, just thought you should know that.
You said one thing ( among many ) that I didnt quite understand :
""As for your friend flying the A-10s in Korea, fine. Aren't most commercial airline pilots retired military pilots around 40+ years old? You think they could play baseball, too"""
1.) A-10's are COMBAT aircraft. They carry bombs, missiles, and a very big cannon. They blow up tanks, people and buildings, and the women that do fly them are well under 40. It is very demanding, both physically and mentally, and requires not only stamina, but a clear mind to be able to think your way out of trouble. Just thought you should know. - and yes, Im quite sure she would be albe to play ball, provided she had the same chance to learn how to do it at the pro level.
Where in my post did I mention Commerical airlines at all ???
I simply do not see how a woman, given the chance to delevop skills the same way a man is( - little leauge, school, minor league ) could not compete with a man on the baseball diamond.
I am not sure if you were implying a woman could not learn the game of baseball, but you seem to keep going back to one's need for knowledge to play the game. I think we all know that. You cant play any sport without knowing the rules first. And it's not like baseball is harder then say...going into space or advanced science. Personally, I think a woman who can fly a combat aircraft over a battefield , or crew a friggin space mission would be able to figure out the infield fly rule and deterimine the need to hold a runner on.
As the saying goes : "..It's not Rocket science "
Again, I offer the example of a woman powerlifter..a sport that is a traditionally more male then female. Long before the first woman tried to get into dead-lifting, I am sure the chorus of nay-sayers were loud and full of reasons on why a woman cant do this..cant do that.
The point is, A woman put on the same path and given a chance to succeed in the major leagues the same way a man is, would do just as well ( or just as bad ) as a man in the Majors. It is simply ridcoulous to imply otherwise. - You cant just grab a softball player from a fast-pitch league and say " well, see? she cant do it, she cant do it "
She must be afforded the same chances at failure and success...Sadly, our society is not there yet. One day I am sure it will, and the overwhelming answer to the question " can a woman make it " will be yes.
I guess in the end we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
cman - while jersey yankees post was a little off the mark (i don't question women's intelligence or learning ability one bit) the basic premise of his arguement is sound.
Your friend in Korea - (i didn't even realize they allowed women combat pilots that early - i thought it was more like the gulf war - anyway) - is a perfect example. I am all for women in the military - provided they pass the same tests as the men. I don't care if your purple with 4 arms, if you can do the job, who cares. BUT, flying a plane and playing a professional sport are two very, very different things. Ponder this - what percentage of the population could conceivably fly a jet? play pro sports? exactly. IF there was a woman who had the skills to be a good major leaguer, owners would take her. why? they want to win. winning = money. owners like money.
I don't see your point mentioning the women powerlifter that lifts less then all men powerlifters her size. what does that mean?
no offense, but i find this statement ridiculous.. there are physical differences between men and women that are natural and undeniable.. it seems to me that you refuse to accept that.. giving women equal opportunity to learn and play baseball the way men have for years is not going to change that fact..Originally posted by cman
The point is, A woman put on the same path and given a chance to succeed in the major leagues the same way a man is, would do just as well ( or just as bad ) as a man in the Majors. It is simply ridcoulous to imply otherwise.
you make it sound as though the only reason there aren't women in mlb is because of society.. i'm afraid mr. evolution might have more of a hand in it than you would like to admit..She must be afforded the same chances at failure and success...Sadly, our society is not there yet. One day I am sure it will, and the overwhelming answer to the question " can a woman make it " will be yes.
Please leave _ALL_ personal insults aside, since I don't consider myself stressed out and/or angry. I simply rebutted your post. If you are unable to deal with a rebuttal, then there's a simple alternative: don't debate. You make a point, your opponent counters. That's the premise of a debate, as we are having. No need to get personal, since I could say your examples make you look foolish and unable to accept the plain truth, but that would also be as cheap an insult as your saying I'm stressed out, angry, etc.Originally posted by cman
Talk about a bitter tanget of a response. You come off as an angry guy, just thought you should know that.
You said one thing ( among many ) that I didnt quite understand :
""As for your friend flying the A-10s in Korea, fine. Aren't most commercial airline pilots retired military pilots around 40+ years old? You think they could play baseball, too"""
1.) A-10's are COMBAT aircraft. They carry bombs, missiles, and a very big cannon. They blow up tanks, people and buildings, and the women that do fly them are well under 40. It is very demanding, both physically and mentally, and requires not only stamina, but a clear mind to be able to think your way out of trouble. Just thought you should know. - and yes, Im quite sure she would be albe to play ball, provided she had the same chance to learn how to do it at the pro level.
Where in my post did I mention Commerical airlines at all ???
I simply do not see how a woman, given the chance to delevop skills the same way a man is( - little leauge, school, minor league ) could not compete with a man on the baseball diamond.
I am not sure if you were implying a woman could not learn the game of baseball, but you seem to keep going back to one's need for knowledge to play the game. I think we all know that. You cant play any sport without knowing the rules first. And it's not like baseball is harder then say...going into space or advanced science. Personally, I think a woman who can fly a combat aircraft over a battefield , or crew a friggin space mission would be able to figure out the infield fly rule and deterimine the need to hold a runner on.
As the saying goes : "..It's not Rocket science "
Again, I offer the example of a woman powerlifter..a sport that is a traditionally more male then female. Long before the first woman tried to get into dead-lifting, I am sure the chorus of nay-sayers were loud and full of reasons on why a woman cant do this..cant do that.
The point is, A woman put on the same path and given a chance to succeed in the major leagues the same way a man is, would do just as well ( or just as bad ) as a man in the Majors. It is simply ridcoulous to imply otherwise. - You cant just grab a softball player from a fast-pitch league and say " well, see? she cant do it, she cant do it "
She must be afforded the same chances at failure and success...Sadly, our society is not there yet. One day I am sure it will, and the overwhelming answer to the question " can a woman make it " will be yes.
I guess in the end we will just have to agree to disagree on that.
If you continue with any further personal insults, I'll presume it's because I strongly rebutted your earlier discussion with many good examples and reasonings, and you're trying nothing more than a cheap trick, which never works against me. All I'm doing is offering a point-by-point rebuttal. No more personal insults, please. Thx.
That said, I'll first quote in full your paragraph about the pilot in Korea you'd discussed earlier:
"I had the privilige of serving with a gal who flew A-10's in Korea - which still is one of the most hostile and unforsaken places on this planet.. if she could sling mud with the boys 200 feet off the deck in a hog and blow up commie tanks, theres no way in hell anyone else can tell me she " is not as strong" as a man or " she cant make it in the majors " "
Had you seen the premise of my response to you, it might've been realized that I wasn't referring to one's physical strength, gutsiness, nerves of steel, etc. All that is meaningless, IMO, in a specific sport, as I'd mentioned, both for men and women. As I'd said, even about your Filipino lady powerlifter example, even if she were to try making it in the NFL, she, like the male powerlifters would need to excel in the specific sport they play.
I have no idea how being a pilot would help one in baseball, unless you can discuss the various HOF players and somehow relate their military careers during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc, to their baseball careers. I don't see how piloting an aircraft or spaceship would make someone more likely to play baseball at a higher level. I _mistakenly_ mentioned commercial airline pilot. Regardless of which plane she flew, he/she could fly solo as an astronaut, that _STILL_ wouldn't qualify him or her for playing baseball.
In fact, if you were to put Randy Johnson, Pedro, Manny, Jason Giambi, A-Rod, Barry Bonds on a fighter plane or running a bomb mission, how many of them would even succeed? If they failed, would that make them lesser baseball players? I don't see how any military training qualifies for baseball or other team sport skills or vice versa, with the exception of Mr. Robinson (the Admiral) of the NBA's San Antonio Spurs. Even in his case, how many other top 50 NBA players who've won titles were directly influenced by military service? How many in the military can play baseball competitively?
As I believe I said very plainly, if you're going to play baseball, you have to play the game. Nothing else qualifies. Not other sports, not other fields which aren't even athletically related, such as flying any type of airplane (even if the job demands thereof are very physically demanding), regardless of the situation they've flown it in or under which dangerous conditions. If that were the case, we'd be getting baseball players from military academies, not sports colleges, Japanese baseball teams or the farm. I've also never heard of X-15 test pilot legend Chuck Yeager being a baseball player either.
As I've also said many times, if yourself or anyone else feels it can be done, please tell me which position she plays. I'll repeat: which position does she play? No one has ever answered that question. Would you care to be the first, please?
As to your belief that a woman can compete on the same level physically as men if given the opportunity and player development, please provide examples of women athletes in team sports who've been competitive against men. I've never heard of any woman excelling at baseball or any other team sports to the point where she can compete against men.
Do you think the WNBA players could grab rebounds against a center 7' tall? Run through the traffic with 6 or 8 hands blocking them? It's nice to believe it can be done and I won't blame anyone from thinking it can be done. However, actually doing it means not doing an excellent performance "for a woman" or an excellent performance "against women" but would require an excellent performance against men. She would be judged with no less than the same exacting standards, as I believe they should be. Do you think this would come about very easily, if at all?
As far as figuring out the basic rules, that's not a problem. We can figure out rules here, we even discuss them. It's working within those rules and stopping people at a high level. Anyone can bounce a basketball or throw a runner out. I'm talking about doing so at a high level with opponents who are very determined to stop you. At this time, it's not the rules that are in question, but critical decision-making as well and executing said decision in a split second.
Hitters intent on advancing runners, baserunners intent on double stealing (does catcher throw to 2B or 3B?), pitchers intent on getting the called strike on the inside corner, SS positioning themselves for the 6-4-3 DP (do they move back or forward from a 2-1 count to a 3-2 count?), 1Bmen positioning themselves to turn the 3-4-3 DP, 3Bmen pivoting and barehanding balls, playing 3B like the hot corner that it is, not just making "decent" throws, which, while within the rules, won't exactly get runners out.
That's what the crowd pays dearly to see, buys team gear, rookie cards, posters, pennants, yearbooks, etc. and no lesser standards of excellence should ever be expected regardless of who's on the field. BTW, if you just play "by the rules", you end up with college ball or the XFL, which aren't as competitive in any way as the MLB or NFL, respectively. It's one thing to _KNOW_ the rules. It's another to excel at this in a highly competitive environment and do the things just mentioned with others who've also finely honed their skills and use them at a high level of competitiveness where winning is the prime object, not just "knowing and/or playing by the rules".
It takes more than just basic knowledge or knowledge of other sports. As mentioned, NBA legend Michael Jordan only hit <.200 in the minors so that should tell you baseball isn't as easy as some may think or imply, even for someone who's now got 6 rings (around 4 when he went into the Chicago Cubs' farm system).
As to the woman powerlifter, that's a sport which I've never said women can't do. I in fact offered links showing both women's and men's powerlifting records. I'd read a book called "Inside Powerlifting" (<-- see link) back around 1980, written by Terry Todd (himself, a world class SHW (superheavyweight) powerlifter), in which the author's wife, Jan Todd was the very first woman who totalled 1,000 lbs in the 1970s. What that means is the sum total of her highest lifts (best of three attempts apiece for each of the squat, then bench press, then deadlift) = 1,000 lbs. This comes to around a 425 lb squat, 225 lb bench press and a 350 lb deadlift (most lifters squat heavier than they deadlift, due to the extra load on the hands for the deadlift).
FYI, in _ALL_ powerlifting, the "Total" of all lifts is always given the greatest importance, per my having read "Powerlifting USA" magazine for several years in the early 1990s, since it shows that the lifter is a complete lifter, not just one-sided in a particular lift. For the record, an elite SHW (top 5) woman powerlifter will total about 1,400-1,500 (550-600 squat, 350-400 bench, 500 deadlift), whereas an elite SHW man (also top 5) will total 2,600-2,700 (1,050-1,100 squat, 650-700 bench, 900 deadlift).
For the nay sayers about women lifters, there was one article in Powerlifting USA in which a 97 lb division woman lifter commented that the crowd at a big meet cheered just as heartily for ~295 lb lift (>3x bodyweight) as they did for Anthony Clark's 1,050+ lb squat (he's 5'7", 325 lbs and a _VERY_ top-rated SHW lifter).
I've known of women strength athletes many years before coming to this board, which is how I recalled and posted their lifts from memory (such as a 600 lb squat, 400 lb bench press). I see no lift by any strength athlete or the premise of simply "learning the rules of the game" which would likely make them competitive on a very high level. As I said for male and female powerlifters, if they do football, they'll need to know their position, as well as run a quick 40-yard dash, which are all specific to that team sport. No rule saying that someone's strong, they can run fast, can know a position. It might happen but doesn't have to. He/she has to prove themselves in the specific sport with no exceptions being allowed whatsoever.
While I see you focus on what society's views of women's potential may be if given the opportunity, with said opportunity being previously denied, I focus on whether or not the individual can do something based upon having proven themselves. I also happen to be strongly of the "I won't believe it until I see it" view, and don't believe I've made any difference from men to women at anytime. Either the person can play baseball competitively against men or they can't. I've never seen any reason why women can and haven't seen any _BASEBALL_-specific reason to believe otherwise, including which position(s) she would play.
The proof is in the pudding. Enjoy the meal.
Last edited by Jersey Yankee; 05-07-02 at 11:47 AM.
Well then , how do we arrive at that conclusion if it has not been tried?Originally posted by KLJ
no offense, but i find this statement ridiculous.. there are physical differences between men and women that are natural and undeniable.. it seems to me that you refuse to accept that.. giving women equal opportunity to learn and play baseball the way men have for years is not going to change that fact..
you make it sound as though the only reason there aren't women in mlb is because of society.. i'm afraid mr. evolution might have more of a hand in it than you would like to admit..
How is it you know the answer to this, before it is given a fair shot. Talk about ridiculous..if it has not been done, it would seem a bit premature to render such a verdict, IMHO.
Well, If you think was insulting you, your off the mark.
I am insulting your line of thinking on this subject.
Simple fact is, your not ready for it. I am. Sooner or later, society will change and you can choose to come along or be left behind.
Your lentghy post goes off and misses most of what I was saying, so lets just do a quick recap :
Baseball has nothing to do with flying. I never said it did, and who the hell cares if Randy Johnson starts flying bombing missions ?
( although I would have appreicated the help if it kept him out of games 2, 6 and 7 last year )
The point I am trying to make - A woman found success in a field where she had been denied entry to based soley on gender. Many loud voices from small-minded people talked at length about how it would not be possible for her to do ti....in the end , your partly correct, THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING. ( and would you like a spoon ? )
You find it so impossible that a woman given the same instruction and skill delevopment a man ( ..a boy ) has from school, that she would be helpless in the majors?
Put a woman in that same setup right now, and in enough time, there will be someone with the skill and talent to make it to a 25 man roster.
The fact is, your not ready or willing to accpet that. Thats good for you, I am overjoyed you are so willing to stand by your argument.
As I said before, we can agree to disagree.
Good day, sir.
i don't know the answer.. just like you don't know the answer.. i'm giving my opinion just like you are..Originally posted by cman
How is it you know the answer to this, before it is given a fair shot. Talk about ridiculous..
Cman, you seem to be talking about everything other than baseball on this one. It's your overall theme but I don't see any baseball discussion there.
As for being "ready for it", I think this falls upon yourself. You can't expect me to be ready for something you are unable or unwilling to provide. You see, if there is somehow a woman in the MLB, it's up to _YOU_ and people of like thinking to do so, not me. Do you have a daughter? Would you have her play baseball professionally against boys or men in her age group? Don't expect me to be ready for something nonexistent and IMO, doesn't really make much sense, but I'd prefer to discuss the nonexistent part.
You have not offerred a single example of _ANY WOMAN_ in _ANY TEAM SPORT_ who competed directly against men in any credible fashion. FYI, I'm only counting cardio-intensive athletic sports like basketball, football, soccer, hockey. Sports like golf, billiards, etc I'm not concerned about for this discussion.
As far as powerlifting is concerned, each lifter is in a class separated often by age, weight and gender. 16 year old girls compete against 17 year old girls; 41 year old women compete against 45 year old women. They don't compete against _MEN_, so I don't understand why _YOU_ brought out that reference.
That I have named several world-class lifters, as well as the specifics of each lift, including the name of the first elite woman athlete (Jan Todd, from the late 70s), I believe demonstrates my knowledge of that sport you discussed, as well as my long-time awareness of elite women athletes in professional powerlifting.
If you feel a woman either should, can or will compete against men, my being "ready for it" is a flimsy excuse, IMO, for your inability to put forth such a woman. You believe it should be done, _YOU_ are the one obligated to do so, not myself, not Steinbrenner, not Selig, not anyone else. _YOU_ and anyone like you are expected to do so. I have no obligation to be "ready" for something which you are unable to put forth. Besides, if you had such a woman, put her forward, she played in a highly competitive manner and I still regarded her as a joke, _THEN_ IMO, you could legitimately argue that I wasn't "ready for her". As is presently the case, _YOU_ have put forth no woman baseball player for me to be ready for in the first place. Please note the difference just mentioned.
We're not talking women flying combat aircraft, being in the US Senate (see Sen Clinton, Sen Boxer, etc), women at the Chairs of Board of large corporations (see Carly Fiorina of HP). We are talking about women competing in team sports, such as baseball, directly against _MEN_, as per this thread's subject title. Please focus on this _EXCLUSIVELY_, if you can. If not, then neither Chuck Yeager, Sen. Schumer nor Bill Gates are likely baseball candidates, but would seem as relevant as the examples you'd offered so far.
I have also heard loud voices from small minds. They always talk about what some fictional, faceless woman could somehow do but never offer anything concrete and aren't _EVER_ interested in offering anything concrete, but are more interested in what a woman "could" do, rather than furthering that cause themselves. I could also call them "famous idiots", a term you've used previously. Whoever fits that example is themselves holding the "spoon" you so refer to so I hope they enjoy their nonexistent meal. It won't be very fattening, I can guarantee you.
Baseball, like other sports, are thinking sports, meaning not just the rules are followed, but, as I've said countless times, one must figure out how to work within those rules at a _HIGH_ level of competition, not just throwing to first or putting the ball over the plate, running home, etc. Try thinking of putting the ball over the plate on a hitter who can hit from anywhere, shifting strike zone, running home when you've got some guy like Suzuki, Vlad or Larry Walker's arm trying to gun you down. That's called a _HIGH_ level of competition, not just knowing the rules. Either your as-yet nameless, faceless woman _CAN_ do this or she _CANNOT_ when competing directly against _MEN_. If she can, then where is she?
If you want to convince me that it can happen, I'll await your evidence that it can happen. Nameless, faceless women are _NOT_ acceptable to me for any kind of proof and will not _EVER_ be considered. I need a name, I need a face, I need to _SEE_ her compete directly against men. If you don't have this, what is there possibly to accept? _NOTHING_, that's what you're offering, _NOTHING_.
If you feel a woman can, shall or will compete directly against men, I hope you have a daughter and are willing to provide this for her. If not, then whose daughter? I'm not putting that woman on the 25-"man" roster. Why don't you? Since when do I have to do anything to support your cause? I'm not doing it, Steinbrenner's not doing it, Selig's not doing it. Who is going to do it but yourself and/or others like-minded to yourself? Please don't expect me to invent some non-existing person, nor put someone in a situation if said situation is _YOUR_ cause, not mine. That's your responsibility, not mine.
Once again, I ask, what position will she play? Care to ignore me once again? (for the umpteenth time) I also hope that in the end, she has a name and a face. Even then, it's up to _YOU_ to prove she can compete directly against men before anything can be seriously considered. If you're unwilling to demonstrate this, then what else is there to discuss?
Thank you, sir or miss.
Last edited by Jersey Yankee; 05-08-02 at 05:39 PM.
Oh, So I need to provide her to you ? Where? What time ? Should we address you as sir or your highness ?
I didnt know I was in charge of MLB recuriting. Hey!, thanks for the job.
This entire time, I've been talking about the POSSIBILITY of a woman.
( or didnt you notice .. ? )
The simple fact remains - you simply cannot accept it. I'm sorry I dont have a name for your approval you but this entire thread is discussing the possibility of a woman, not her name, age, height and playing ability.
Your so far into this you cant see the forest for the trees.
Try to remember something - baseball is a game. It can be played at your aformentioned high level only by people who have practiced and trained at it for most of there life. So what happens when we put a woman in the mix? We dont know...what was the titile of this post? Can a woman make it? ( were talking about possibility! )
Why cant you see that? How else can I spell this out for you ?
Once again -- I believe I spelled out a woman could play at any position, ( i have not been ignoring you , you might want to actually read my respones this time ) ....but this time let me spell out for -- she can play
1B, 2B, 3B , SS, C, P, LF, CF, RF, DH , Pinch Run or Pinch Hit.
Perhaps we can even her Umpire, Coach 1st or 3rd, Manage, Or be the bullpen coach.
Can we just move on now, or do you still need to argue ?
Since when was I your highness? Should I call you your highness? I could call you a lot more but unlike yourself, I choose to respect my opponents. Care to follow this or should your standards remain lax?
Your last post seems to be the first one in which you actually mention a position she could play, as the rest of your posts dealt with military pilots, powerlifters and other unrelated things.
As for accepting, please re-read sometime. Nothing to accept if nothing offered. Shall I ask you to read a letter I write in invisible ink? Same as accepting something that's not there. You haven't mentioned any woman competing directly against men, despite my constant requests that you do so. By this, I accept you're unable to do so.
"Your so far into this you cant see the forest for the trees."
More examples of your frustration that you can't come up with any decent examples so you turn to being personal insulting. You belittle yourself and your argument with cheap shots like this but not unexpected after your "famous idiot" discussion earlier. Why so petty? I could be equally petty, much moreso in fact, but I don't insult people simply because I disagree with them. I also don't get into juvenile "your highness" nonsense either, unlike yourself.
If you believe a woman can do this, all I ask is that you prove it. No example was offered by yourself of any woman competing against men. I don't even see the logic in it, since she'd be expected to be as good as Ichiro Suzuki and don't think the media would ever let up on her one bit. Trust me, if she were your daughter, you wouldn't want her scrutinized so severely by every member of the sports media on the planet.
Umpire, perhaps, coach or manager, perhaps. Very few female umps in NFL, NBA, boxing title fights but it's a remote possibility, though not necessarily anytime soon. Manager or coach, perhaps but I think a minor league or college level might likely happen first. When would this likely happen?
You seem to think a woman can play every position. A woman DH? A woman hitting the ball like Edgar Martinez? Are you sure about this?
If you can end the cheap shots for once, please tell me something about each position you mentioned earlier and an important quality that's needed to play at that position, regardless of who plays it. Like SS is acrobatic, 1B is power, etc. Some positions I tend to wonder if you're thinking from a baseball perspective, since 1B and DH aren't two positions which women would generally be considered for in the MLB, if any at all. I always thought that big studs like Stargell, Big Mac, Gehrig, Dan Brouthers were your 1B or DH types.
For example, do you think a woman can play RF at an MLB stadium? What does a RFer have to do or have that a LFer doesn't necessarily have to have? Before we can put someone into a position, I think it's appropriate to know about the position to see if it's appropriate for them.
This is the last time I'll warn you against insults. I won't get into a silly free-for-all with you, since that's not my way of doing things. If that's your way, as you'll demonstrate whether yes or no in your eventual response, no need to even respond in the first place. I'll see in the end whether you're willing to have a classy answer w/o any cheap shots this time. Hopefully, it will also be _BASEBALL_-related this time, not personal insults.
Without getting into a lot of rhetoric, let me just say that at some point in the future there will be a woman who will play in the major leagues!! Who knows when is anyone's guess but with the way that human beings are getting stronger and more athletic I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next ten years.
Which position do you think she'll play in? AL or NL?Originally posted by Sixty one
Without getting into a lot of rhetoric, let me just say that at some point in the future there will be a woman who will play in the major leagues!! Who knows when is anyone's guess but with the way that human beings are getting stronger and more athletic I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in the next ten years.
"" Your last post seems to be the first one in which you actually mention a position she could play, as the rest of your posts dealt with military pilots, powerlifters and other unrelated things. ""
Ok, lets see ....I worte this on my secod post on this thread..
"" As for 3B? Simply just throwing that out there..be it any postion, C, SS, 1B , or even DH, I dont see a problem as long as she has talent and skill. ""
Lets go over the key words in this sentence, shall we? ""..be it any positon ""
Once more, just to be clear I am not ignoring you ? BE IT ANY POSTITION ""
Do we have the matter of when I talked about what position she can play settled ?
Oh, and please, feel free to scroll down the page and look at my first post as well, I threw out 3B to begin with, so I am still asking myself why you even bother to ask what position she can play ...
As I said, your so far in to this you can't see the forset for the trees..I am afraid that was not a personal insult, sir, it is an observation.
I could see her as a DH or even a lst baseperson. Who can really predict!!
"" For example, do you think a woman can play RF at an MLB stadium? What does a RFer have to do or have that a LFer doesn't necessarily have to have? Before we can put someone into a position, I think it's appropriate to know about the position to see if it's appropriate for them. ""
OF postions.. she would need a good throwing arm, excellent speed, as well as being able to produce with the bat on the offensive side. Tradtionally the domain of big HR hitters, she would more likely be a need to be a kind of "Ichiro" slap hitter..
IF -- 1B. Excellent defensive is a must, particually with the scoop pickup from other infielder throws. Again, tradtionally the domain of big power hitters, she could be utility louis sojo type ( playing anywhere in the IF ) ir even a more steady 1B type like Olerud ( great swing moderate power )
2B - Defensive skills again ..wide range needed here and.. be able to whithstand the impact of runners trying to break up a dp
SS, 3B - must be somewhat acrobatic as you stated, along with possesing a strong throwing arm that is accurate.
C- be able to call a good game and know how to handle the oppsoing lineup with pitch calls. would need to be fairly stocky to withstand the bang bang plays at the plate, as well as take abuse from fouls of your mask. Offensive wise, again, more of a backup's contrubution is now.. singles, doubles hitter
Yes, I think that a woman who has the same "upbringing" in baseball ( Little Leauge, School, Minors ) would be able play RF, LF, CF, ANY POSITION on the field.
This is why I have continually made mention of the fact that a woman would need to the same skill development that men receive. I dont know why that idea is so hard to fathom. If a woman, side by side with the boys from little league, school ( HS and college ball ), the and the minor league system, are taught and have there skills refined through professional insrtuction, why would she be inferior to the men ? So she is not as physically strong as Sammy Sosa, but not every MLB player is built like a brick S**** house. Example Exhibit A - Craig Counsel.
( akward chimeny sweep stance not incuded )
This is also why I have made mention, as an example, of women military pilots ( not so unrelated if you can grasp the idea )
"" If you believe a woman can do this, all I ask is that you prove it. No example was offered by yourself of any woman competing against men. ""
Lets see, there are no Women in MLB right this very second, so how would I be able to prove it ? Again , back to something I have said along -- For a fair competion to take place, the woman in question needs to have the same baseball background. As another example, I offered women military combat pilots ... they were not clerks on monday and pilots on tuesday..they went to the same schools and recieved the same training as the men..only then, and not before, can you compare Even if we open up the MLB to woman players by midnight tonight, it would take at least 19 years before we see the first woman player on the same field..otherwise how can you expect her ( or for that matter anyone ) compete against paid proffesionals ?
""I don't even see the logic in it, since she'd be expected to be as good as Ichiro Suzuki and don't think the media would ever let up on her one bit. Trust me, if she were your daughter, you wouldn't want her scrutinized so severely by every member of the sports media on the planet""
And this is where we fundametally disagree on this issue. I do see the logic in it, as I am not one to give up only due to others telling me " its to hard " Why quit before you even start ?
IF she where MY daughter, as a father, I owe it to her to help her understand the pros and cons of her choice. In the the end, if she wants to go foward with it, I dont see how I .... nay..any father could say no.
""Nothing to accept if nothing offered""
I have been, since the first post, offering the IDEA of a woman playing ball. That sir, is what I charge you with being unable to accept.
""You belittle yourself and your argument with cheap shots like this but not unexpected after your "famous idiot" discussion earlier. Why so petty? I could be equally petty, much moreso in fact, but I don't insult people simply because I disagree with them.""
Why don't you go look at and actually read the famous idiot part of that post. I wasn't calling YOU an idiot. So, unless your name is McPeak ( as mentioned in the post ) your off the mark.
If you have a habit of flying into insults not directed at you, I cant help you with that...but please try and read what I actually posted and you might realize that my comments, while silly and juvinelle to you, dont always apply to you. If they do, trust me, I'll let you know.
Say, Jersey Yankee, I have an idea.
Why don't we ask the owners what they think of the idea?
You, or me ( why dont we both write one and compare ) a letter, asking the views of each MLB owner on this subject? If nothing else, it can only add to the debate.
I'd really like to hear what Wendy Selig-Prieb has to say on the issue. The Brewers could use all the help they can get.
cman, I still consider this to be an insult, just as you talked about some unnamed "famous idiot". It's a cheap way of putting down your opponents. You seem to have taken this personal but haven't quite grasped why not. If anyone who hasn't seen the forest for the trees, it may be yourself, if the "observation" thing is acceptable.
That said, I'll acknowledge you passingly mentioned 3B as an option for a woman to play. What is there about 3B why you said this? 3B is considered the "hot corner". Is there something about 3B specifically which made you choose that position?
Any more interesting "observations" on your part will follow with some on mine. Presuming you know something about baseball, then the _BASEBALL_-related aspect of my question should be a breeze for you. Presuming you're here to discuss _BASEBALL_.
Theoretically, there may be a woman or two out there who could make the ML. But there are no women's locker rooms, etc. in the minors, so she'd have to come from the college ranks. This seems pretty unlikely. Should the entire baseball world become more woman friendly for the slight possibility that a girl could make the ML? I don't think so.
So without the competition position players need to get better, I don't see how this theoretically possible woman could develop her talents to the point where she could make the ML. Howerer, pitching (esp. as a reliver) seems more possible since a pitcher can develop w/o facing the best hitters.
I think the owners would love to have a woman ballplayer. And if one can make, I'd love to see it myself--although it would seem weird. "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?"
I'll pass on this one. I don't see any reason why I should write letters for what's essentially a cause you're pushing. I disagree with seeing a woman playing in the MLB. You wish to call me politically incorrect or any other names, doesn't bother me, though it wouldn't exactly lend credence to your cause or yourself. If you wish to see what Ms. Selig-Prieb thinks, please feel free to write her yourself. Either her or some big name sportswriters.Originally posted by cman
Say, Jersey Yankee, I have an idea.
Why don't we ask the owners what they think of the idea?
You, or me ( why dont we both write one and compare ) a letter, asking the views of each MLB owner on this subject? If nothing else, it can only add to the debate.
I'd really like to hear what Wendy Selig-Prieb has to say on the issue. The Brewers could use all the help they can get.
I mostly see it as a huge publicity nightmare with managers and owners being asked about this and if they say no, they're publicly accused of being sexist for stating their honest opinions. There are many women Yankee fans here. Perhaps some of them would care to opine.
Had you said some kind of women's independent league, you could've had my support. Even if there enough quality women's baseball teams, I might even support a "WMLB" type of organization. For playing with men, no way. That's like putting in a woman in the NBA, not the WNBA. Even for women hoopsters, anyone can point out to the postseason for the UConn Huskies women basketball players. They have a winning record and have done very nicely. They play other women and do so in the competitive manner I'd mentioned earlier. That I support. If you're telling me they should instead play the men or one of them should be included on the mens' team, I'd not be in favor of this.
If you seriously feel that women should play baseball competitively, starting from youth, afterschool, little league, junior varsity, varsity, college, it's up to you to see to it that this happens. If not, then we'll only be discussing possibilities but never realizing this in the end. Not quite the subject of the thread's title but I think you catch my drift.
Even if they did build themselves up and women's baseball teams were as respected for quality play as women's basketball, I still wouldn't want them in the bigs, just as I wouldn't want to see women playing in the NBA.
The closest I've heard of this was when Lynette Woodard (<-- see link) signed with the Harlem Globetrotters as a team member. That's an exhibition team, but let's talk for a second. Which woman do you think could compete in the NBA? Not the WNBA but the NBA? The NHL? (even if she doesn't get into fights with the guys) Men's soccer? I'd prefer to leave the NFL out of this.
If she's a pitcher, she can have the mound charged. Can you imagine the headlines if she beaned someone and the guy got ticked off? I still think 1B is a pure power position but I'll let others disagree. If she plays 2B, guys will still try to break up the DP so unless she's used to having wayward limbs going in her direction, she may have a hard time.
Feel whichever way you want about this. I don't think it should happen and that's about it.
cma - you just aren't getting JY's arguement - I don't blame you, he hasn't made it that clear.
I will distill it for you: Anything women can do in any sort of physical measurement, men can do better. Not only better, but not even in the ballpark (no pun intended). Name one sport, run, jump, lift, physical competition, that a women could even sort of compete with a man. This is the crux of the arguement - you've said that "women haven't been trained their whole life for baseball." well what about basketball, soccer, track, hockey, etc.. where women have trained their whole life. Where are these women that now play on the same level as professional men that have trained their whole life?
Your arguement doesn't hold any water.
BBBG, thx for breaking it down. I can't deal with the constant "she wasn't given a chance" when there are so many women in pro sports, that it doesn't even begin to make sense.
Granted, I go into great detail for what I've said, I still think that the basic premise is valid.
As Jersey Yankee himself has gone to great lengths to explain, Baseball is an entirely different sport. But putting that aside for a moment, you asked me to name one sport, Lets go with Soccer.Originally posted by BackBackBackBackGone
cma - you just aren't getting JY's arguement - I don't blame you, he hasn't made it that clear.
I will distill it for you: Anything women can do in any sort of physical measurement, men can do better. Not only better, but not even in the ballpark (no pun intended). Name one sport, run, jump, lift, physical competition, that a women could even sort of compete with a man. This is the crux of the arguement - you've said that "women haven't been trained their whole life for baseball." well what about basketball, soccer, track, hockey, etc.. where women have trained their whole life. Where are these women that now play on the same level as professional men that have trained their whole life?
Your arguement doesn't hold any water.
Are the best women players better then the men? Perhaps not ( they would need to play head to head to find out for sure ) But can they compete with them? I think so. Do you ?
Going back to the diamond, I dont see baseball as so demanding physically that a woman would just be completly " out of her league " in competing with men. But training is essential, as I dont think you or I would stand a chance in a exhibition game vs. the Yanks.. You gotta have the same "upbringing"
I suppose I just dont understand those who cant grasp that, but as I have mentioned all along, I suppose we can just agree to disagree.
One vote for, 2 against. Only time will tell who wins.
Well, thats really too bad.Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
I'll pass on this one. I don't see any reason why I should write letters for what's essentially a cause you're pushing. I disagree with seeing a woman playing in the MLB. You wish to call me politically incorrect or any other names, doesn't bother me, though it wouldn't exactly lend credence to your cause or yourself. If you wish to see what Ms. Selig-Prieb thinks, please feel free to write her yourself. Either her or some big name sportswriters.
I mostly see it as a huge publicity nightmare with managers and owners being asked about this and if they say no, they're publicly accused of being sexist for stating their honest opinions. There are many women Yankee fans here. Perhaps some of them would care to opine.
Had you said some kind of women's independent league, you could've had my support. Even if there enough quality women's baseball teams, I might even support a "WMLB" type of organization. For playing with men, no way. That's like putting in a woman in the NBA, not the WNBA. Even for women hoopsters, anyone can point out to the postseason for the UConn Huskies women basketball players. They have a winning record and have done very nicely. They play other women and do so in the competitive manner I'd mentioned earlier. That I support. If you're telling me they should instead play the men or one of them should be included on the mens' team, I'd not be in favor of this.
If you seriously feel that women should play baseball competitively, starting from youth, afterschool, little league, junior varsity, varsity, college, it's up to you to see to it that this happens. If not, then we'll only be discussing possibilities but never realizing this in the end. Not quite the subject of the thread's title but I think you catch my drift.
Even if they did build themselves up and women's baseball teams were as respected for quality play as women's basketball, I still wouldn't want them in the bigs, just as I wouldn't want to see women playing in the NBA.
The closest I've heard of this was when Lynette Woodard (<-- see link) signed with the Harlem Globetrotters as a team member. That's an exhibition team, but let's talk for a second. Which woman do you think could compete in the NBA? Not the WNBA but the NBA? The NHL? (even if she doesn't get into fights with the guys) Men's soccer? I'd prefer to leave the NFL out of this.
If she's a pitcher, she can have the mound charged. Can you imagine the headlines if she beaned someone and the guy got ticked off? I still think 1B is a pure power position but I'll let others disagree. If she plays 2B, guys will still try to break up the DP so unless she's used to having wayward limbs going in her direction, she may have a hard time.
Feel whichever way you want about this. I don't think it should happen and that's about it.
Interstingly ....no, im gonna just leave that alone. You've said your piece , I've said mine, and the debate will go no further between us.
One vote for, 2 against. Only time will tell who wins.
What would it take to build an exrta locker room? $100 dollars for a team that pulls in $100 mil ? We all know onwners love money, so it would probably start as a gimick first, but imagine all the people who want to come see her firsthand...more fannys in the seats = more revenue.Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Theoretically, there may be a woman or two out there who could make the ML. But there are no women's locker rooms, etc. in the minors, so she'd have to come from the college ranks. This seems pretty unlikely. Should the entire baseball world become more woman friendly for the slight possibility that a girl could make the ML? I don't think so.
So without the competition position players need to get better, I don't see how this theoretically possible woman could develop her talents to the point where she could make the ML. Howerer, pitching (esp. as a reliver) seems more possible since a pitcher can develop w/o facing the best hitters.
I think the owners would love to have a woman ballplayer. And if one can make, I'd love to see it myself--although it would seem weird. "Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?"
( or MLB can just raise the price again on Exrta innings, and the internet radio feeds to cover the costs
Ever heard of Mia Hamm? Top-rated woman soccer player, correct? Would you put her on a men's soccer team? Or would you keep her playing with other women? Isn't the direction of the thread's title that of a woman playing on a men's team and sport?Originally posted by cman
As Jersey Yankee himself has gone to great lengths to explain, Baseball is an entirely different sport. But putting that aside for a moment, you asked me to name one sport, Lets go with Soccer.
Are the best women players better then the men? Perhaps not ( they would need to play head to head to find out for sure ) But can they compete with them? I think so. Do you ?
I've said that if you wanted to have some women's baseball league, be it independent or, if given quality competition that can hold viewer interest (many years down the road, per the agreed-upon "upbringing" to take place), even a women's pro baseball league, I'd have no problem. I would not, under any circumstances, put a woman in a men's league.
Would you put a top woman basketball player in the NBA or would you prefer they be in the WNBA or any other top pro women's league? If you would put a woman in the men's league, please let me know why. If you would put them in a league of other women, then we have no argument.
I don't see any women's baseball league happening anytime soon but even if a woman were developed where she could compete (also, per the upbringing which would be equally available to other girls and women her age), I'd much prefer she play alongside other women. I don't see any reason why Mia Hamm would or should prefer to play with men and become some PT Barnum freakish sideshow, rather than play against other women. Didn't she and her mates sell out the Rose Bowl when playing China (100,000 in the stands + millions more on TV)?
I don't see any reason why Venus Williams would rather play Pete Sampras or any other man, rather than Martina Hingis or Lindsay Davenport. I don't see why Chamique Holdsclaw would prefer to play against Shaq and Kobe or Mr. Robinson and Tim Duncan, rather than the other women of the WNBA (<-- link).
Then again, in post-Bobby Riggs times, why would they even have to, or for that matter, even want to?
Ever heard of Cheryl Miller, Reggie's sister? She gets respect on her own behalf by broadcasting about men's basketball because she's done it herself in the Olympics (1996?) at a _VERY_ high level of competition -- against other _WOMEN_!!! It was called "Miller Time" when her hands touched the ball. That's how, IMO, you get respect. By _EARNING IT_!!! By doing something at a high level of competition and acting like "one of the guys" (no pun intended), not by expecting entry into another league's locker room, as Mia, Chamique and Cheryl have so wisely chosen to avoid.
Here is the flashpoint of our disagreement. You believe women can compete with men, in say, soccer or basketball. Thats fine and dandy if you want to throw a woman on a team, and just hope she plays well enough not to make a total fool out of herself, that doesn't prove your point. If you took that fact that she was a woman out of the equation - say she pretended to be man - would she make an MLS or NBA squad? no way. The same arguement you are making, you could also say "well so-and-so minor league player probably isn't as good as anyone in the league, but he could probably keep up." That's a meaningless arguement.Originally posted by cman
Are the best women players better then the men? Perhaps not ( they would need to play head to head to find out for sure ) But can they compete with them? I think so. Do you ?
How is it meaningless , if it is not tried ?Originally posted by BackBackBackBackGone
Here is the flashpoint of our disagreement. You believe women can compete with men, in say, soccer or basketball. Thats fine and dandy if you want to throw a woman on a team, and just hope she plays well enough not to make a total fool out of herself, that doesn't prove your point. If you took that fact that she was a woman out of the equation - say she pretended to be man - would she make an MLS or NBA squad? no way. The same arguement you are making, you could also say "well so-and-so minor league player probably isn't as good as anyone in the league, but he could probably keep up." That's a meaningless arguement.
Really, how exactly do you know if she would make an MLS or NBA squad ?
I maintain that if you bring a gal up with the same background in baseball she would do just fine. Of course we don't know this until it actually happens, but I don;t think its fair or wise to judge until you actually see it. Apperantly, we don't see eye to eye on that, and thats fine.
One vote for, 2 against.
JY -
This statement you made preety much sums up your feelings, correct?
"" Even if they did build themselves up and women's baseball teams were as respected for quality play as women's basketball, I still wouldn't want them in the bigs, just as I wouldn't want to see women playing in the NBA. ""
So even if they become just as good as big leaguers, and could actually make the game better, youd rather not see them on the same field.
Good for you. So why do you still need to argue about it? Really, youve said that no matter how good they could become, your not in favor of it.
What's left to debate? Youve already closed off your mind to the possibility, so why bother to mention other examples ( after you made such a fuss about being here to discuss baseball, and not 'unrelated topics ' as you pointed out. )
We disagree on this issue. Great. Let's move on now.
Cman, why don't you take some time to print out and _READ_ the _ENTIRETY_ of my prior post, rather than carelessly twisting it to your advantage (which I definitely feel doesn't work to your advantage in the end). If you'd done so, you'd have seen that there are _MANY_ women athletes making it playing against _OTHER WOMEN_, as I've specifically pointed out. I've named elite women athletes in tennis, powerlifting, basketball, soccer just as there are many other sports. I said they should play against _OTHER WOMEN_. Did you read that part? If not, please re-read.
Please don't confuse this with my somehow saying women aren't good enough to play _BASEBALL_. If they are, and have gone through the proper development channels from youth to adulthood, others would have joined her and those are the _OTHER WOMEN_ who she can play baseball with.
If you disagree, then please answer the very first question posted in my prior response (presuming you even read it):
"Ever heard of Mia Hamm? Top-rated woman soccer player, correct? Would you put her on a men's soccer team? Or would you keep her playing with other women? Isn't the direction of the thread's title that of a woman playing on a men's team and sport?"
In fact, please name _ANY_ elite woman athlete and tell me if you'd rather she play against women or men. If not in other sports, then why in baseball?
In pro sports, I like to see women play against women, men play against men. For varsity, junior varsity, I like to see girls play against girls, boys play against boys. This mixing of the genders in pro team play doesn't sit well with me. If it does with you, I hope you have a daughter and are willing to put her through this.
If you would prefer that Venus Williams play against men, why not write her, since you're so interested in letter-writing to MLB team owners. In fact, please ask _ANY_ elite woman athlete, even women beach volleyball players, who they'd rather compete against: (a) women, or (b) men, and see what the response would be. I've never once heard any elite woman athlete say she'd prefer playing against men professionally or would even welcome the opportunity. As such, I don't see why baseball would be ripe for such gender integration.
As for "making the game better", how? Reincarnation of Ty Cobb? Honus Wagner or Lou Gehrig? I have no idea how the inclusion of a woman makes the game "better". Is she a better athlete, better at her position than anyone else there? Seems a highly unlikely possibility IMO. Several of the top baseball players out there are 2nd generation baseballers, like Jr., Bonds (who's related to Willie Mays), Cal, Roberto Alomar, etc.
As for putting "fannies in the stands", I think that Ichiro Suzuki has done that very nicely.
I'm talking about the minors where talent is DEVELOPED. There are hundreds of teams down there and none of them pulls in $100 mil. So yes, it would be a major undertaking to convert the minor leagues to be women friendly. Especially when we cannot even name one woman who would have a chance of succeeding at the minor league level.Originally posted by cman
What would it take to build an exrta locker room? $100 dollars for a team that pulls in $100 mil ? We all know onwners love money, so it would probably start as a gimick first, but imagine all the people who want to come see her firsthand...more fannys in the seats = more revenue. ...
True, but instead of installing a new locker room, perhaps we only ned to go as low-tech and simple as a folding screen. $89 at Pier 1Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
I'm talking about the minors where talent is DEVELOPED. There are hundreds of teams down there and none of them pulls in $100 mil. So yes, it would be a major undertaking to convert the minor leagues to be women friendly. Especially when we cannot even name one woman who would have a chance of succeeding at the minor league level.
Keeps the locker room from being "split"
I'd also like to think, that if one day this lady comes along, the best excuse offered is " we dont have a womens toliet in here "
Major undertaking? In culture and mindset yes.
In everything else - easy as pie.
You've managed to go from complaing that I dont discuss just baseball too asking me about Mia Hamm, then getting seemingly upset when I answer your questions. So you cant make up your mind? I'm twisting your words now? Swell.Originally posted by Jersey Yankee
Cman, why don't you take some time to print out and _READ_ the _ENTIRETY_ of my prior post, rather than carelessly twisting it to your advantage (which I definitely feel doesn't work to your advantage in the end). If you'd done so, you'd have seen that there are _MANY_ women athletes making it playing against _OTHER WOMEN_, as I've specifically pointed out. I've named elite women athletes in tennis, powerlifting, basketball, soccer just as there are many other sports. I said they should play against _OTHER WOMEN_. Did you read that part? If not, please re-read.
Please don't confuse this with my somehow saying women aren't good enough to play _BASEBALL_. If they are, and have gone through the proper development channels from youth to adulthood, others would have joined her and those are the _OTHER WOMEN_ who she can play baseball with.
If you disagree, then please answer the very first question posted in my prior response (presuming you even read it):
"Ever heard of Mia Hamm? Top-rated woman soccer player, correct? Would you put her on a men's soccer team? Or would you keep her playing with other women? Isn't the direction of the thread's title that of a woman playing on a men's team and sport?"
In fact, please name _ANY_ elite woman athlete and tell me if you'd rather she play against women or men. If not in other sports, then why in baseball?
In pro sports, I like to see women play against women, men play against men. For varsity, junior varsity, I like to see girls play against girls, boys play against boys. This mixing of the genders in pro team play doesn't sit well with me. If it does with you, I hope you have a daughter and are willing to put her through this.
If you would prefer that Venus Williams play against men, why not write her, since you're so interested in letter-writing to MLB team owners. In fact, please ask _ANY_ elite woman athlete, even women beach volleyball players, who they'd rather compete against: (a) women, or (b) men, and see what the response would be. I've never once heard any elite woman athlete say she'd prefer playing against men professionally or would even welcome the opportunity. As such, I don't see why baseball would be ripe for such gender integration.
As for "making the game better", how? Reincarnation of Ty Cobb? Honus Wagner or Lou Gehrig? I have no idea how the inclusion of a woman makes the game "better". Is she a better athlete, better at her position than anyone else there? Seems a highly unlikely possibility IMO. Several of the top baseball players out there are 2nd generation baseballers, like Jr., Bonds (who's related to Willie Mays), Cal, Roberto Alomar, etc.
As for putting "fannies in the stands", I think that Ichiro Suzuki has done that very nicely.
Again, for the last time, lets move on. You have made your thoughts clear on this issue, no matter what, you dont want women in MLB. ( no matter who good they are ) Great.
Your so closed minded, you can't even fathom how a good women player could enhance the game. ( IMHO, that's preety damn sad > ""If she's a pitcher, she can have the mound charged. Can you imagine the headlines if she beaned someone and the guy got ticked off?"" Lets see - bench clearing brawl if the batter charges. Maybe, she's not completly helpless and frail, which is how I suspect you would view her. She might even kick his a** ala Nolan Ryan.
What's left to debate?
Do you need to have the last word in? Then by all means.....
In any case, I have not been twisting your words..and if anyone needs to re-read something.....just trying to debate a hot topic. If you feel you have been insulted in any way, then again , I cant help you with that. Try to look up and smile or something and remind yourself your standards are higher then mine.
Good day, sir
i thought this topic died a long time ago...
now, who thinks a midget will play professional ball?
Already happened. Eddie Gaedel in 1958 with the ChiSox.Originally posted by KLJ
i thought this topic died a long time ago...
now, who thinks a midget will play professional ball?
even when i try to be a smartass it backfires..Originally posted by #1PaFan
Already happened. Eddie Gaedel in 1958 with the ChiSox.
It was in 1951 with the Browns, FYI.Originally posted by #1PaFan
Already happened. Eddie Gaedel in 1958 with the ChiSox.
Absolutely! Thanks for the correction, Pen! (What the hell was I thinking about? Hmmm.....Originally posted by penguin4
It was in 1951 with the Browns, FYI.)
It point is NOT: Modifications or creative solutions can't be made to the minors ML when a Major League female talent has been identified.Originally posted by cman
True, but instead of installing a new locker room, perhaps we only ned to go as low-tech and simple as a folding screen. $89 at Pier 1
Keeps the locker room from being "split"
I'd also like to think, that if one day this lady comes along, the best excuse offered is " we dont have a womens toliet in here "
Major undertaking? In culture and mindset yes.
In everything else - easy as pie.
It IS: The DEVELOPMENT grounds of baseball like the minors are not female-accessible. Therefore, that extremely rare woman who could conceivably develop into having ML potential has few places to hone the fielding and hitting skills necessary for identification as an ML talent. You can't become ML material in a batting cage or playing softball or on a weekend harball league. You learn ML skills by playing against the best out there.
The closest exception is pitching. For example, Jim Morris ("The Rookie") refined his delivery throwing against high school students. You can work on different pitches, pick-off moves to considerable degree w/o facing the best competition out there. Even more the case for a reliever who doesn't have to go through the lineup a few times. The same just can't be said about hitting or the other position players.
For this reason, in addition to the natural strength advantage to men, I believe if there is a first female ML player, she will be a relief pitcher.
cman, I asked you several times to name any major pro sport in which women competed against men. You have still named none. I then asked you to contact any elite woman athlete and see if they would welcome the opportunity to play against men. You, of the letter-writing campaign to MLB owners, have predicably made no such move. Why not? You fear you may be proven incorrect?
I have provided names of elite women athletes in several sports, all of whom became so because they played against other women. Like it or not, that of a woman playing pro sports against men _IS_ a part of this thread's discussion. My mention of Mia Hamm, like Venus Williams, Cheryl Miller and others was to simply demonstrate that, like the cig ad, "you've come a long way, baby". Had you read further, I'd mentioned that in this post-Bobby Riggs era (remember Bobby Riggs vs Billie Jean King in the 70s?), why should a woman have to even play against men? Why can't they make it on their own two feet, playing against women instead of being compared to men? What's wrong with that?
Mia Hamm's game at the Rose Bowl (?) was significant, since this was a women's team selling out a 100,000-seat stadium used primarily for giant worldwide-televised NFL games, which practically put women's soccer on the map!!! That an all-woman team could do this demonstrated what women could actually do, IMO. Had the same Mia Hamm decided she needed to play against men on some MLS team, I would think it would've been like a freak show. Mia is thankfully dedicated to _WOMEN'S SOCCER_ and joined a _WOMEN'S_ soccer league.
You have provided zero evidence that a woman could "improve the game" as to MLB and/or "put fannies in the seats", other than perhaps some XFL type of sideshow, which, however highly-rated initially, quickly loses viewer interest due to lack of quality play. Could she somehow improve the game simply because of your say so? You have wishes which aren't substantiated in the end and don't even seem baseball-related, to say the least. Even if she were some outstanding athlete, she would be playing against old lions would know how to win.
If a woman were to do the same in baseball and there was lots of viewer interest, her "improving the game" could be attributed to fine play against _OTHER WOMEN_. (<-- please try not forgetting that part of my discussion this time).
I believe that like him or not, overrated or not, Ichiro Suzuki has certainly both "improved the game" and "put fannies into the seats", including @ YS. He did so by proving himself against MLB competition, postseason, All-Star, etc. Interestingly, he also had 7 MLB titles in Japan, so he obviously went through the development process and excelled at it. Should a Japanese woman play against the men there then come here and want to play against men in the MLB? That seems to be what would happen according to how you're writing.
Your wishful thinking follows:
"1.) A-10's are COMBAT aircraft. They carry bombs, missiles, and a very big cannon. They blow up tanks, people and buildings, and the women that do fly them are well under 40. It is very demanding, both physically and mentally, and requires not only stamina, but a clear mind to be able to think your way out of trouble. Just thought you should know. - and yes, Im quite sure she would be albe to play ball, provided she had the same chance to learn how to do it at the pro level"
That you think a woman who pilots a combat aircraft can somehow play baseball should be proof that your baseball knowledge is in doubt. If it were that easy, then X-15 test pilot Chuck Yeager would be Barry Bonds if given the proper training, based upon your theory of the unknown, unnamed woman A-10 pilot. In fact, please name some combat pilots then went on and had good MLB careers (other than WWII, in which countless MLB players put careers on hold to fight in the war). Either she (a) knows _BASEBALL_ or (b) is unqualified to play at a higher level of competition in the MLB. I can't think of a choice "(c)".
When you're ready to do either of the following, I'm all ears:
(1) Demonstrate with baseball discussion how the woman you're referring to would somehow improve MLB competition (based exclusively upon her baseball skills).
(2) Name an elite pro woman athlete who either has or would seriously consider playing against men in her sport.
You would have a hard time proving her presumed skill level and you know it, since you have no names to offer. Therefore, her improvement of the game is merely in your imagination. No proof to offer, yet she's going to improve the game? How does that work?
As far as kicking someone's butt, how many pitchers are going to do that? You think little Pedro could do that? Is the woman you're referring to about 225 lbs? Perhaps she's a pro wrestler.
I hope you have a daughter. Then you can stand in the door demanding entrance to the boy's or men's locker room. You think anyone would actually listen? Why don't you get into your letter-writing campaign and find out? Go to your local JHS, HS or college, ask them if they'd allow a girl to play against the boys in junior varsity, varsity or a woman against the men in college. You may then verify whether or not I'm alone in my thinking that it shouldn't happen, and that they should continue playing against their own gender. Don't be too upset if you're denied entrance to said locker room.
Last edited by Jersey Yankee; 05-14-02 at 12:00 PM.
Penguin, what do you think of the discussion so far? Any views on a woman playing against men in the MLB? Or of the various arguments put forth so far? I need a woman's viewpoint.http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gaedeed01.shtmlOriginally posted by penguin4
It was in 1951 with the Browns, FYI.
In one (1) game, 3'7", 65 lb Edward Carl Gaedel was walked once, had no HBP, no hits so a 1.000 OBP.
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