Reverse the Blown Perfect Game call: Yes or No?

[PinstripePride]

Pretty simple. I'm 3000% behind reversing the call, but I want to see your thoughts. I know the ESPN poll turned up results roughly 75% in favor of reversing the call.

[hellonewman]

I agree, it's time to give Milt Pappas his perfect game.

In 1972, Pappas again won 17 games and lost only seven, half his loss total of 1971. He also posted a 2.77 earned run average, his best since his 2.60 in 1965, his last year in Baltimore. On September 2 of that year, at Wrigley Field, Pappas no-hit the San Diego Padres 8-0. He retired the first 26 batters and was one strike away from a perfect game with a 2–2 count on pinch-hitter Larry Stahl, but home-plate umpire Bruce Froemming called the next two pitches—both of which were close—balls. Pappas believed he had struck out Stahl, and even decades later in 2008, continued to begrudge Froemming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milt_Pappas

[RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees]

I don't think it would be appropriate for MLB to be treating this game differently than any other game with a bad call.

[roblyo33]

^ Agree

[False1]

Heart says yes, but I just think it's not feasible.

[delv]

I don't think it would be appropriate for MLB to be treating this game differently than any other game with a bad call.

basically.

what if the "hit" was given up in the 2nd inning instead of the 9th?

this is just a bad idea... if there's gonna be a change, it has to be "going forward" not in retrospect. if they aren't gonna get rid of PED HR records, then no way they change these records

[Rice14]

basically.

what if the "hit" was given up in the 2nd inning instead of the 9th?

this is just a bad idea... if there's gonna be a change, it has to be "going forward" not in retrospect. if they aren't gonna get rid of PED HR records, then no way they change these records

Exactly.

Make sure it never happens again, but what's done is done.

[NYYDragoon]

basically.

what if the "hit" was given up in the 2nd inning instead of the 9th?

People need to stop saying this. BASEBALL IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Yes, it should be reversed.

[teknetic]

basically.

what if the "hit" was given up in the 2nd inning instead of the 9th?

this is just a bad idea... if there's gonna be a change, it has to be "going forward" not in retrospect. if they aren't gonna get rid of PED HR records, then no way they change these records

Except it wasn't, so why does this matter? I'm not sure what PED/HR records have to do with this as that's another animal, but I'm not surprised that comp was brought up.

[DEADSOX]

I feel bad for the guy but no.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

You can't do this. What if a game is decided tonight on a blown call -- are we going to change that one too? Or do perfect games matter more than the outcome of a game?

[Rice14]

People need to stop saying this. BASEBALL IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Yes, it should be reversed.

What if Galarraga hadn't been pitching a perfect game? What if the same exact call is made in a game that the Tigers led by a run and the next batter hit a HR to win the game for Cleveland, should that be reversed the next day? Because I'm sure that somewhere along the way, an ump has blown what could have been the last out of a game and cost a team a win. It sets a bad precedent to reverse something the next day.

What needs to happen of course is that some form of instant replay protects baseball from these terrible calls. Who would have been against a replay last night? Would the fans have minded waiting five minutes to get the perfect game right? Would the umps have been upset that Jim Joyce was let off the hook?

I'm not a real big fan of using replay on every close play, especially those that you have to watch the play in slo-mo from three angles and you're still not totally sure what happened. However, a play that one quick look by replay clearly shows that a mistake was made, you have to use it.

[NYYDragoon]

What if Galarraga hadn't been pitching a perfect game?

Don't see why this is relevant when he was.

[roblyo33]

Don't see why this is relevant when he was.

I think it's very relevant. Why does it matter that he was pitching a perfect game?? There have been many bad calls that have affected the outcome of games, even the World Series. What about bad calls that, I'm sure, have been made in the 1st or 2nd inning of a one hitter?? The guy made a horribly bad call that cost the guy a perfect game. So be it and move on.

[Tifoso]

I don't think it would be appropriate for MLB to be treating this game differently than any other game with a bad call.

I tend to agree, amico mio.

The only thing that makes it notorious is that he had 2 outs. If it would've been 0 or 1, we woudn't be having the discussion.

See, the problem is, you reverse this, then where do you stop? Pretty soon, calls will be made to reverse decisions in other "important" games. Which leads to a whole bunch of technology, which turns this into, God forbid, football

[NYYDragoon]

I think it's very relevant. Why does it matter that he was pitching a perfect game?

It's kind of the entire point? In fact, it's such the entire point that we may have replay in a few years.

[Rice14]

Don't see why this is relevant when he was.

Because baseball can't create a narrow window like "we'll only reverse calls the next day in the instance of affecting a perfect game." What happens when a bad call costs a team a win? What happens if it costs a team a World Series game? Reverse a call once and you're opening the box.

That's why baseball needs to get the calls right in the field to begin with--by any means necessary.

[Tifoso]

It's kind of the entire point? In fact, it's such the entire point that we may have replay in a few years.

Which would be a shame, unless it was done only in ridiculously few circumstances.

Games are too long now.

[Tifoso]

Because baseball can't create a narrow window like "we'll only reverse calls the next day in the instance of affecting a perfect game." What happens when a bad call costs a team a win? What happens if it costs a team a World Series game? Reverse a call once and you're opening the box.

That's why baseball needs to get the calls right in the field to begin with--by any means necessary.

This.

[NYYDragoon]

Because baseball can't create a narrow window like "we'll only reverse calls the next day in the instance of affecting a perfect game."

Why not? The fact that this is such a rare thing is a perfect opportunity for this exception. Then make sure it never happens again by implementing replay.

I don't see why some of you insist on expanding this situation.

[NYYDragoon]

Games are too long now.

Ah, are you really one of those people, Lou?

[Tifoso]

I think it's very relevant. Why does it matter that he was pitching a perfect game?? There have been many bad calls that have affected the outcome of games, even the World Series. What about bad calls that, I'm sure, have been made in the 1st or 2nd inning of a one hitter?? The guy made a horribly bad call that cost the guy a perfect game. So be it and move on.

Another way of looking at it: how many PG's have been blown by ump calls, I wonder?

[Tifoso]

Ah, are you really one of those people, Lou?

Don't get me wrong--I wouldn't want them to be an hour, amico mio.

Part of the beauty of baseball is that you get to "spend some time with it"

3 hours tops, though (for a 9 inning game)

[NYYDragoon]

Don't get me wrong--I wouldn't want them to be an hour, amico mio.

Part of the beauty of baseball is that you get to "spend some time with it"

3 hours tops, though (for a 9 inning game)

Replay would be implemented so it's not a huge time burden.

[Rice14]

Why not? The fact that this is such a rare thing is a perfect opportunity for this exception. Then make sure it never happens again by implementing replay.

I don't see why some of you insist on expanding this situation.

Because you can't create such a small window. You can't do something that's never been done before in the history of baseball and expect that nobody will ever ask you to do it again.

[b-ball-lunachick]

Why not? The fact that this is such a rare thing is a perfect opportunity for this exception. Then make sure it never happens again by implementing replay.

I don't see why some of you insist on expanding this situation.

Let's say the same thing happens next month but it's a no-hitter, not a perfect game. Then the next week, it's a shut out..

as much as I feel bad for the guy and the ump, I voted not to reverse it..if the umps had gotten together right then and reviewed it, yes - reverse it..but not after the fact.

[yankeebot]

I'd reverse the call. We're not talking about a court of law. There's no binding precedent in baseball. And remember this one? "Our consideration is limited to the present circumstances, for the problem of equal protection in election processes generally presents many complexities." If the USSC can do it, so can MLB.

[DEADSOX]

Why not? The fact that this is such a rare thing is a perfect opportunity for this exception. Then make sure it never happens again by implementing replay.

I don't see why some of you insist on expanding this situation.

The fact that they are so rare probably has a lot to do with what we're all talking about in the first place: missed calls on plays at bases, missed strike calls, etc. I don't see why it should matter anymore just b/c this was the last out, this guy was just as "perfect" as someone who might have had a blown call in the 2nd inning but was perfect in every other fashion. This is what makes a perfect game so great, everyone (including umpires) has to be perfect, in this case it was the umpire that blew it, perfect games and no hitters have been blown by routine plays (last year with harriston comes to mind right away), these things happen, and at risk of sounding cliche, it's part of the game.

[Tifoso]

Because you can't create such a small window. You can't do something that's never been done before in the history of baseball and expect that nobody will ever ask you to do it again.

In a game 7 of a World Series with a pitcher 1 out away for clinching the victory for Team A, for example.

Once Pandora's box is open.....

[roblyo33]

It was a bad call in a critical situation. I feel badly for the pitcher and the umpire. That being said, it wasn't the first bad call and it won't be the last, replay or no replay. Both the umpire and the pitcher will be more "famous" because of the call and the situation. I say we just move on.

[JL25and3]

After Harvey Haddix's famous game (12.2 perfect innings, only to lose the game 1-0 on an error and a hit) he got a letter from a Texas A&M fraternity that read, in its entirety:

Dear Harvey,
Tough sh!t

"It made me mad," recounted Haddix, "until I realized they were right. That's exactly what it was."

That's my philosophy on the whole thing.

[NYYDragoon]

Let's say the same thing happens next month but it's a no-hitter, not a perfect game. Then the next week, it's a shut out..

Why are so many people obsessed with taking this slippery slope?

That's enough from me here. I've made my points across multiple threads and don't care much for repeating myself and shooting down terrible logic. Don't get me wrong: it's one thing to say the call shouldn't be reversed. But it's another to say so due to some of the reasons being put forth.

[roblyo33]

Why are so many people obsessed with taking this slippery slope?

Slippery slope?? It's a fact. You set a precedent and all Hell breaks loose, IMO. "It is what it is" to quote a famous trainer. Move on.

[roblyo33]

Why are so many people obsessed with taking this slippery slope?

That's enough from me here. I've made my points across multiple threads and don't care much for repeating myself and shooting down terrible logic. Don't get me wrong: it's one thing to say the call shouldn't be reversed. But it's another to say so due to some of the reasons being put forth.

When you're wrong, you're wrong. Ask Jim Joyce.

[yankeebot]

After Harvey Haddix's famous game (12.2 perfect innings, only to lose the game 1-0 on an error and a hit) he got a letter from a Texas A&M fraternity that read, in its entirety:

Dear Harvey,
Tough sh!t

That's my philosophy on the whole thing.

But a call was changed after the fact in that very game. Precedent!

A fielding error by Don Hoak ended the perfect game in the bottom of the 13th, with Felix Mantilla being safe at first base. Mantilla later advanced to second on a sacrifice bunt, which was followed by an intentional walk to Hank Aaron. Joe Adcock then hit an apparent home run, ending the no-hitter and the game. However, in the confusion, Aaron left the basepaths and was passed by Adcock for the second out and the Braves won 2-0. Eventually the hit was changed from a home run to a double by a ruling from National League president Warren Giles; only the first Braves run counted, for a score of 1-0, but the Pirates and Haddix still lost.[

[hellonewman]

9.02
(a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info...s/umpire_9.jsp

If a rule is unfair or obsolete, alter or abolish it. But don't say the rule's there but we just don't mean it.

[teknetic]

Which would be a shame, unless it was done only in ridiculously few circumstances.

Games are too long now.

and the ensuing argument with the ump following a bad play isn't wasting time?

[hellonewman]

But a call was changed after the fact in that very game. Precedent!

Rules interpretation, not judgment.

[yankeebot]

Rules interpretation, not judgment.

It was a joke. That's what the laughing smiley means.

[4bronxbombers]

What if Galarraga hadn't been pitching a perfect game? What if the same exact call is made in a game that the Tigers led by a run and the next batter hit a HR to win the game for Cleveland, should that be reversed the next day? Because I'm sure that somewhere along the way, an ump has blown what could have been the last out of a game and cost a team a win. It sets a bad precedent to reverse something the next day.

What needs to happen of course is that some form of instant replay protects baseball from these terrible calls. Who would have been against a replay last night? Would the fans have minded waiting five minutes to get the perfect game right? Would the umps have been upset that Jim Joyce was let off the hook?

I'm not a real big fan of using replay on every close play, especially those that you have to watch the play in slo-mo from three angles and you're still not totally sure what happened. However, a play that one quick look by replay clearly shows that a mistake was made, you have to use it.

But he was!!! I didn't even read further cuz that was not the case!

[hellonewman]

It was a joke. That's what the laughing smiley means.

Fine but I've seen several posts in the last 24 hours that miss the distinction between judgment and rules interpretation so I thought it was worth bringing up.

[delv]

People need to stop saying this. BASEBALL IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Yes, it should be reversed.

thanks Michael Kay, but I don't mean in that game, but in any game. Say a guy gives up a 1-hitter but the 1 hit (on a bad call) is given up in the 2nd. Clearly, the compulsion to change the call would be LESS than the compulsion in this Galarraga situation, just because of how people narratively conceive of the import and drama of the situation.

edit: other people addressed the same point w/ different examples. the context should not determine whether or not a call gets overturned.

[roblyo33]

thanks Michael Kay, but I don't mean in that game, but in any game. Say a guy gives up a 1-hitter but the 1 hit (on a bad call) is given up in the 2nd. Clearly, the compulsion to change the call would be LESS than the compulsion in this Galarraga situation, just because of how people narratively conceive of the import and drama of the situation.

edit: other people addressed the same point w/ different examples. the context should not determine whether or not a call gets overturned.

This is the crux of the entire situation, IMO. Well done.

[DEADSOX]

thanks Michael Kay, but I don't mean in that game, but in any game. Say a guy gives up a 1-hitter but the 1 hit (on a bad call) is given up in the 2nd. Clearly, the compulsion to change the call would be LESS than the compulsion in this Galarraga situation, just because of how people narratively conceive of the import and drama of the situation.

edit: other people addressed the same point w/ different examples. the context should not determine whether or not a call gets overturned.

Right on.

[RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees]

I tend to agree, amico mio.

The only thing that makes it notorious is that he had 2 outs. If it would've been 0 or 1, we woudn't be having the discussion.

See, the problem is, you reverse this, then where do you stop? Pretty soon, calls will be made to reverse decisions in other "important" games. Which leads to a whole bunch of technology, which turns this into, God forbid, football

I favor full instant replay, and would love it if this leads to that.

[PirateChief]

Slippery slope? Seriously?

You use your discretion to determine where it stops. I'm sure people have a clear understanding of why this case might merit some special consideration.

[pleasepassthesoup]

It absolutely 100% should be overturned. He threw a perfect game.

[BigCheese]

It should be overturned.

We've been arguing this point all day in the other thread, but I'll reiterate my point-of-view.

In this particular case, there is almost no losing party; the only person who would be "hurt" by the overturned call is Jason McDonald, by way of taking away his hit.

I'm willing to bet that he would be fine with having one hit taken off of the books, so that Galaragga could be credited with his perfect game. He seemed to know he was out.

As for the Indians, they lost the game regardless.

I think if all directly-affected parties can agree (the Tigers, the Indians, Galaragga, McDonald, AND the umps), they should overturn the call. It allows pragmatism over principle only when the situation is win-win.

(Of course, the commissioner should confirm that McDonald wouldn't mind. If he wants his hit, he should be entitled to it. No pressure should be applied.)

[delv]

It should be overturned.

We've been arguing this point all day in the other thread, but I'll reiterate my point-of-view.

In this particular case, there is almost no losing party; the only person who would be "hurt" by the overturned call is Jason McDonald, by way of taking away his hit.

I'm willing to bet that he would be fine with having one hit taken off of the books, so that Galaragga could be credited with his perfect game. He seemed to know he was out.

As for the Indians, they lost the game regardless.

I think if all directly-affected parties can agree (the Tigers, the Indians, Galaragga, McDonald, AND the umps), they should overturn the call. It allows pragmatism over principle only when the situation is win-win.

(Of course, the commissioner should confirm that McDonald wouldn't mind. If he wants his hit, he should be entitled to it. No pressure should be applied.)

why is a perfect game a "win-win"? the dramatic value of a certain type of statistical outcome (no matter how rare) does not have more value than the consistency of the rules. w/o the rules, no game has any value, so those rules should not be sacraficed for what essentially breaks down to emotional value.

[OlgMvp]

I agree, it's time to give Milt Pappas his perfect game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milt_Pappas

Froemming was on an MLB network special and told the story about this game. It was an awesome story...and he still claims to this day that they were balls. That's more of a judgement call than the one at first base. The first base replays usually show CLEARLY whether he was out or safe. Calling balls and strikes is a little different than out calls at 1B. However, having said that...I vote NO, only because we could open up the books and start looking at EVERY blown call and overturning those...it's just not worth the headache, while Gallaraga was robbed, he can still remember that day forever...he threw a great game.