You believe what you want to see.Originally Posted by SLURPEE
You believe what you want to see.
You should really save the sassypants for an occasion when you're right.
58 million cap.
Curry, Gallo, Chandler, Douglas, Walker. 17,782,905 total. Brings them down to 40.2.
10 million cap hold on Lee. Down to 30.2.
Jeffries and Hill = 9.5. Down to 20.7.
Sign Amare for 16.5. Down to 4.2.
Sign and Trade Lee, remove his caphold. Up to 14.2. Take on Turiaf, Buike, and Randolph, subtract 9.2
5 million left.
You can waive Bill Walker and squeeze in Felton for a shade under 6 million.Fields and Rautins, as 2nd rounders, don't have capholds.
Unfortunately, you don't get to sign the immaculate Timofey. I suppose that justifies giving up all of those assets.
Here are those Knicks:
Felton, Douglas
Chandler, Azubuike, Fields
Gallinari, Jeffries, Rautins
Randolph, Hill
Stoudemire (Do you guys have him lined up at C? I know he's complained about it before, but that's the best fit for him on this team), Turiaf, Curry.
Plus, they have their picks for the upcoming seasons, so they have a ton more flexibility in the short and long term.
You can not squeeze Felton in under 6, the guy makes 8 million, we would have lost him then. So, AGAIN, no, the Golden State trade would not have been made had we not made the Houston deal. There is no way Walsh makes that deal with if he only has 5 million in cap space left after it and no starting PG (and no depth, which is why T-Moz and Mason Jr were signed and in your scenario Walker would be gone as well). Especially since he wanted Felton really bad and would not have risked lowballing him for an offer under 6 million, and giving him a longer deal was not really an option since we need to maintain cap flexibility. Sooooo for the 4th time NO, without the Houston deal there is no Golden State deal, you need to understand this.
(Also Turiaf, Buike, and Randolph make a combined 9.5, not 9.2, Turiaf 4.2 + Buike 3.3 + AR 2 = 9.5, but then again Felton makes 7.7 not 8 million so I guess you can scratch the difference there)
Last edited by Kluivert4Ever; 08-19-10 at 07:22 AM.
"I am the law, bitch"
Felton makes 7 million:
http://www.storytellerscontracts.com/
Fine, sign Luke Ridnour (who would much rather be a starter in NY than a 4th stringer in Minni), or sign Kyle Lowry (who's contract would fit right in if you got rid of Walker).
Is the upgrade from those two to Felton really worth Jordan Hill, giving the Rockets the option to swap picks in 2011, and your 2012 pick?
Turiaf is a flat 4, Azubuike is at 3.3, and Randolph is 1.965. Closer to 9.25 than anything.
So yes, the deal is completely possible with Jeffries and Hill still on the books.
I think Amar'e signing in NY is more dubious without the TMac deal, too.
Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.
Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA
That's a much more reasonable argument.
Still, I think if he was really intent on only playing with another super star, he probably would have waited until after Bosh, Wade, and LeBron were done, right?
7.7 million for Felton and 4.2 for Turiaf
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9155
Donnie would not have made the deal if he had 4.7 million to play with needing a backup C, starting PG and a backup SG.
I know he didnt mention the Golden State deal specifially on Knicks night live but when asked about the Houston deal he did reply that it allowed us to make deals after we had gotten a max which we would not have made otherwise. Cap flexibility is a wonderful thing and it allows you to do many things, one is acting quickly. I very much doubt that Donnie would have pulled the trigger on the Golden State deal knowing how much work he had left to do and how little cap room he would have left to do it with. I guess we will never know for sure but I for one is confident that the Golden State deal does not happen AND I know for a fact that we dont get Felton (yes maybe Luke but I LOVE Felton for this system so for me thats a major downgrade). So even if Houston gets Melo for our assets it wouldnt bother me since that deal allowed us to do things we wouldnt have been able to do otherwise.
Also its easy to say, well you could have gotten player A or player B instead.
Reality was that had we not made the Houston deal, Donnie would have had about 4,5 million dollars to fill at least two big holes, backup C and starting PG, and he and Coach really wanted Felton so for them you better believe that the cap space available AFTER the GS was a big factor in making the GS deal in the first place. 12,5 million left in cap space after the deal makes it a no-brainer, 4,5 million left and no the deal does not go through.
"I am the law, bitch"
Weird. Shamsports and Storyteller both have the numbers I gave, but hoopsworld is different. Usually not that big of a difference.
You had your backup C in Turiaf. Back up SG in Azubuike. What are you talking about?
Cap flexibility lets you do great things like take on Jared Jeffries and Jordan Hill, get a 1st round pick, and exchange picks if you want. That's what you use cap flexibility for!
Yeah, it's easy to say that because it's totally true. There were tons of alternatives.
And honestly? If you really, really need that flexibility, you could have unloaded Azubuike or Hill. Just look at the Nets, they unloaded the awful Yi and saved 3 million without giving up a thing.
Turiaf is not our backup C, he is our C and I guess Azu could be our backup SG but he could also be a starter where Chandler backs up Gallo at SF, in that case Mason Jr becomes the backup SG but that was the least important part and I dont think that had much to do with anything. The fact that Turiaf is our starting C with NO backup and the fact that we REALLY wanted Felton (which I agree with) is the reason why we couldnt have made the GS if we had not had those extra millions.
You cant know for sure that Luke would sign here. He could have but you dont know and if he wouldnt then what, and even if he did I didnt want him nor did the Knicks. In their mind and rightfully so Felton is a much much much better option for this system.
I dont think you can trade players you just acquired unless you package them together so moving Azu wasnt really an option. I guess we could have tried to move Hill but even if we did not (not counting what we would take back) we would still be almost a million short of Feltons asking price.
Could you manouver around all those things and still get Felton and make the GS deal even without the Houston trade? There is a chance of course but there is also a big chance everything blows up in your face (Felton walks away, you dont get the backup C you so desperatety need in T-Moz). The only way to guarantee having our backup plan work was to have the needed space and basically the only thing we gave up for that was a 1s round pick (since Hill would have to be unloaded anyhow).
I see us and Houston having pretty equal records so the swapping of picks doesnt matter much and if we play up to our potential that pick wont hurt so much either.
Bottom line, AGAIN, Donnie Walsh will most likely not make that deal unless he had the necessary cap room to execute his backup plan. We NEEDED that legit starting PG who is perfect for this system and we needed a backup center and Walsh knew this in case plan A failed.
"I am the law, bitch"
Hill can back up center then.
You can be pretty sure Luke would rather start and increase his value than back up Jonny Flynn and Sessions (who was still on the roster before Ridnour signed). Besides, we're operating in hypotheticals anyway.
You can trade Azubuike all you want, just not back to GSW.
I think Houston will be solidly in the playoff hunt next saeson if Yao is healthy, while the Knicks will probably be around 500.
I have no idea where this myth that Raymond Felton is perfect for the system came from.
1. I rather not have Hill backing up center at 6-10, 235 ibs. It works being 235 at C if you are Marcus Camby but not if you are Jordan Hill. Turiaf at 250 and T-Moz at 7´1 and 270 can hold their ground though.
2. "Pretty sure" and no still dont want him.
3. Okay so we "can" trade Azu, but I wouldnt want to, he is the only pure SG we have so that would somewhat defy the purpose of making the GS deal.
4. .500 in the East means playoffs, so they wont be getting a lottery pick
5. http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...g-Report-2692/
"What team/coach that drafts Felton will have a bigger impact on his success than the other top point guards in the draft. Felton needs to play for a coach that is willing to let him push the ball and play at the speeds he thrives at. In the right system, Felton can be the best point guard in the draft; in the wrong system Felton just might be average."
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knick...B50DEAjdEpxABJ
The Knicks believe Felton, 26, can be the perfect pick-and-roll complement to Stoudemire to help lift them into the playoffs for the first time since 2004
I also happen to like T-Moz A LOT, along with Donnie so getting him only ads fuel to the fire that there would be no GS deal if we had not made the Houston deal. But you know what, believe what you want to believe just dont come in here saying that its flat out wrong that the GS wouldnt have happend had the Rockets not happened and even if you think that so be it and please laugh all you want if Houston gets Melo for those assets.
Im done debating this.
Last edited by Kluivert4Ever; 08-20-10 at 04:29 AM.
"I am the law, bitch"
I still think Amaré would have come here Snatch but compare the rosters if we didnt make the Houston deal (if we assume that the GS deal somehow happens which I doubt very much).
Houston deal/Non-Houston deal
Felton >>> Douglas
Chander = Chander
Gallo = Gallo
Amaré = Amaré
Turiaf = Turiaf
Bench:
Douglas ?????
T-Moz > Hill (since T-Moz is a natrual C)
Randolph = Randolph
Azu = Azu
Walker = Walker
Is the difference between Felton and Douglas or whoever we could sign for the 4 million in cap space we would have and the difference between having a legit backup C not worth giving up a non-lottery pick? I say Felton alone is worth a non-lottery pick.
I love how some thinks the Houston deal was some kind of terrible one sided affair, did we gave up too much? Probably, but swapping picks doesnt hurt much and the way Donnie has built this team he basically gave up Hill (Im willing to bet that T-Moz will have the better career of the two) and a non-lottery pick, thats it.
"I am the law, bitch"
Some T-Moz highlights for you Knicks fans
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2010/08...gov-vs-greece/
Look at that 2 handed blockHe needs to learn to slam the ball against the backboard though so he wont get called for goaltending but damn he is really patrolling the paint.
"I am the law, bitch"
If you watched him play every night at UNC like I did....running Roy Williams up tempo offense (which is very similar to what D'Antoni runs) then you would understand why many of us are saying he will thrive here. His talents flourish in an up-tempo style...he was the best PG in the country in his junior year and part of a national title winning team running that kind of offense. He hasnt had the chance to do it on the NBA level yet.
Jesus Montero since June 1 (286 at-bats):
.325/.386/.605/.991
July 1 (182 at-bats):
.348/.417/.658/1.075
Yeah, this offense and Felton are made for each other, its easy to understand why getting Felton was Walsh number one priority when plan A failed.
Its amazing what Walsh did in just one off-season.
This is a comparsion between last years team and this years team, the number in () is the player's age.
PG: Duhon (28) Vs Felton (26) EDGE: Felton by A LOT
SG: Chandler (23) Vs Chandler (23) EDGE: Chandler should improve
SF: Gallo (22) Vs Gallo (22) EDGE: Gallo should improve
PF: Lee (27) Vs Amaré (27) EDGE: Amaré by A LOT
C: Jefferies (29) Vs Turiaf (27) EDGE: Turiaf
Bench:
Harrington (30) Vs Randolph (21) EDGE: Randolph (Talentwise they are tied but Harrington did more harm than good with his ballhogging)
Bender (29) Vs Mozgov (23) EDGE: Mozgov
Hughes (31) Vs Azubuike(27) EDGE: Tie
Walker (22) Vs Walker (22) EDGE: With the lost weight he should improve
Douglas (24) Vs Douglas (24) EDGE: Douglas should improve
Average age for the 2010/2011 squad: 23.9
AMAZING what he has done this off-season AND we have room for a max FA this summer
The only "bad" thing is that we dont have our pick next season but with this balanced squad it wont be a lottery pick and its not like we dont got
young and talented players already.
"I am the law, bitch"
A matter of fact he has given the chance to do the EXACT opposite in Larry Browns system, nothing against Larry but his offense is not suited for Felton. The positive is however that Felton has become a VERY good defensive PG under Larry Brown.
"I am the law, bitch"
Houston is Melo's first choice...supposedly
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_r...ello?eref=sihp
Total BS.
I'm not saying he will be playing for Knicks, but I think it's obvious that New York would be preference all things being equal. What reason is there for him to prefer Houston?
"We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."
hopefully this doesn't turn into another Lebronesque campaign for attention
"He's done it all now....he's one of the greatest players that's ever played this game.'' - Brian Cashman on Alex.
2009 = shutting up the haters. Thanks Arod and CC.
What is obvious about the Knicks being a preference over someplace else?
Why would his preference be Houston? lol
His wife wants him in New York. She works there and he's from NY. This all (Melo being on the trade market) started with him saying he would like to play for the Knicks at his wedding. Now we have all these teams kinda of out of the blue who are supposedly the favorites. lol
'It's about championships' Cliff Lee will be taking his talents to the South Bronx.
He grew up in Baltimore, not New York.
There's already another star player here for him to play with, the Knicks will have more flexibility going forward than most other teams, and, depending on who they give up for Melo, they have some decent young players. That's without getting into any non-personnel reasons that may or may not be a factor. I mean I could buy Orlando, but not Houston.
"We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."
He lived in Brooklyn until he was 9 or 10 I believe, which is different from someone like Jordan who moved when he was 2. His parents and all his family are from NY. I'm not going to overstate it, because as we've seen things like loyalty matter little most of the time. He does have significant NYC connections though.
"We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."
They have lost a lot of flexibility because they can't trade a 1st rounder until 2014. Hard to acquire talent without picks.
It was 8, not that it really matters, and he was dead broke, with no father, living in the projects turning to a life of drugs and crime. I'm sure his fond memories of NY are really pulling at him.
I mean, I know you guys don't like the Knicks, but can you be objective a little about NYC as compared to Houston?
Even better.....cant they go back to the obscurity of the Nets thread and just banter between themselves?
Jesus Montero since June 1 (286 at-bats):
.325/.386/.605/.991
July 1 (182 at-bats):
.348/.417/.658/1.075
One of the reasons given was no state income tax, although i think he could make a lot more on the side playing in NY than in Houston.
We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.
It is never too late to be what you might have been.
www.homeoftheknicks.com
Go here instead Knicks fans
"I am the law, bitch"
My take:
1) The Knicks are Melo's number 1 choice.
2) If the Knicks are Melo's ONLY choice, then he will be a Knick this season (trade) or next season (FA).
3) If Melo doesn't mind to sign an extension with the Nets/Rockets, then he will be a Net/Rocket this season (trade).
It depends on how much he wants to come.
You mean like this?Some T-Moz highlights for you Knicks fans
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2010/08...gov-vs-greece/
Look at that 2 handed block
Mozgov vs. Derrick Rose
GIFSoup
"In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism....formed their own 4-H Club -- the "hopeless, hysterical, hypochondriacs of history." - Spiro Agnew
He played at Syracuse and in the offseason lives in NY. His wedding was in Manhattan. Yeah, he loves NY and his wife said he'd like to play here. Also his wife is in the entertainment biz and obviously NY is perfect for that.
"In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism....formed their own 4-H Club -- the "hopeless, hysterical, hypochondriacs of history." - Spiro Agnew
Any of you guys know what's up with the Knicks single game presales? Seems like it already happened, they never sent me an email. WTF?
They've been painfully slow in all facets of sorting through the ticket process this year.
Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.
Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA
Well then you're going to love this. Finally got in touch with my rep today (she says they sent me an email last week, but I never got it), and it turns out that ol' Jimmy Dolan boy has decided to get into dynamic pricing for single game tickets. For example, the first Heat game is going to be priced at $145 for the 400 level, can you believe it? The knicks have some serious delusions of grandeur, I don't think Stoudemire is going to make people much more interested in the Knicks, they probably still suck
Funniest part of that is that everyone in town knows their payroll is a ton lower now.
I'm glad they're under the cap and all, but perhaps they should prove they're dynamic on the court before they decide to do the same with their pricing
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
They'll probably make the playoffs this year. Their team is stronger across the board compared to what they let go and they let go 10 guys. Every one of them is willing to play and at least has some aptitude for defense. The Knicks will have an actual center and a real point guard. The people they picked up all fit D'Antoni's style of play. Gallo, Chandler, and AR should all improve from last year.
Good business move by Dolan although I hate to see it.
I want to see if they suck again if Dolan will bring back "sucky team" pricing. They can use the motto "Less buck for the suck" to help sell it.
"In the United States today, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism....formed their own 4-H Club -- the "hopeless, hysterical, hypochondriacs of history." - Spiro Agnew
I also think they'll be better, but I have no faith that D'Antoni's no-defence style will ever get them very far. I'm not so sure they'll make the playoffs
I'm not convinced it is yet. I mean, I think the Knicks are very improved, but I think he is potentially quashing translating enthusiasm into ticket sales. There are a lot of folks who thought their whole plan went up in smoke when they didn't get LeBron, and I think they have to win first to get the town believing in them again. I think this is a year too soon.
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
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