If I had to vote today, I'd vote:
AL:
1.) Hernandez
2.) Sabathia
3.) Buchholz
NL:
1.) Halladay
2.) Jiminez
3.) Wainwright
If I had to vote today, I'd vote:
AL:
1.) Hernandez
2.) Sabathia
3.) Buchholz
NL:
1.) Halladay
2.) Jiminez
3.) Wainwright
In CC's last 18 GS the Yanks are 16-2. I don't think that's a coincidence.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
To me, a true Cy Young candidate should be in the top 5 in the league in each of the following: W, IP, ERA, K. In that order. Its that simple.
Here are the Top 5 in the AL in each of those categories:Originally Posted by TheInfallibleOne
Wins: Sabathia 19, Hughes 16, Price 16, Buchholz 15, Lester 15, Pavano 15 (6 players listed due to a tie)
Innings: Hernandez 211 1/3, Sabathia 202 2/3, Pavano 189, Lee 184 1/3, Verlander 184 1/3
ERA: Buchholz 2.21, Hernandez 2.38, Cahill 2.82, Wilson 2.88, Price 2.92
Strikeouts: Hernandez 200, Weaver 200, Lester 186, Liriano 178, Morrow 178 (but won't get any more)
Categories appeared in:
Hernandez 3
Sabathia 2
Pavano 2
Buchholz 2
Price 2
Lester 2
Lee 1
Verlander 1
Cahill 1
Hughes 1
Liriano 1
Morrow 1
Weaver 1
Wilson 1
As for the possibility of anybody finishing in the Top 5 in all four categories, here are the players who are in the Top 5 in at least two categories:
Hernandez is 5 wins behind the Top 5
Sabathia is 0.10 ERA and 13 strikeouts behind the Top 5
Pavano is 0.60 ERA and 71 strikeouts behind the Top 5
Buchholz is 37 2/3 innings and 77 strikeouts behind the Top 5
Price is 11 2/3 innings and 17 strikeouts behind the Top 5
Lester is 8 1/3 innings and 0.35 ERA behind the Top 5
Although I don't think any of them will do it, I think Sabathia is most likely to finish in the Top 5 in all four categories.
"It's a Yankee game, it can't possibly come in under 3 hours."
The M's have no reason to let Felix throw 230-240 innings this season, keep that in mind. I understand they'd love for him to win this award, but they'd be best suited shutting him down after 2-3 more starts.
Seriously?
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I dont know if this is something the voters look at....but I also give alot of extra credit to pitchers who are starting in these pressure packed games down the stretch. So CC and Price rank higher to me because of this. They are in a dogfight for the division....and they are under extreme pressure to pitch great and win every time they step on the mound, where as Felix can just go out there and pitch free and easy without having much to worry about. To me that is a huge difference.
If CC ends up with 22-23 wins and an ERA under 3....I dont see how you couldnt vote for him.
Jesus Montero since June 1 (286 at-bats):
.325/.386/.605/.991
July 1 (182 at-bats):
.348/.417/.658/1.075
He threw 238 IP last year. He can handle it. Sure he's only 24, but his body is conditioned to be able to throw all those innings. He's thrown over 190 IP every year since 2006 (his 1st full season when he was just 20).
He threw over 170 combined innings from the minors to the majors in 2005 as a 19 year old.
2004 he threw 149.1 IP in the minors.
Basically there was no huge innings jump. It's just that he was that good right away and moved up really quickly. Seattle seems to develop these potentially all time talents (Griffey Jr, A-Rod, Felix).
Cy was best known for his win total...
.... And yet never won the Cy Young award. Point proven.
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
King Felix won't win it with under 15 wins...remember no starter has ever won the Cy young without at least 15 Ws, especially if CC ends up with 20+
Lee and Lester pitched themselves out of it for now...Buchholz doesn't have enough innings...
It's CC leading the pack and Price is the only guy who can catch him at the moment.
As for the NL, Ubaldo's once insurmountable lead is gone, Halladay leads the race
1. Halladay, 16-10, 2.27 ERA, 214 IP, 190 K
2. Wainwright, 17-9, 2.30 ERA, 195.1 IP, 178 K
3. Jimenez, 17-6, 2.69 ERA, 184.1 IP, 170 K
4. Hudson, 15-6, 2.30 ERA, 191.2 IP, 113 K
Outside looking in:
5. J. Johnson, 11-5, 2.28 ERA, 177.2 IP, 174 K
6. Latos, 13-5, 2.25 ERA, 155.2 IP, 160 K
7. Carpenter, 14-5, 2.92 ERA, 197.1 IP, 147 K
Sabathia doesn't really need an ERA under 2. Anything below 3.11 should get him the nod if he reaches 22-23. He's also a media favorite.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
wins are ridiculous. sorry, but it's true. use some measure for volatility to cover whatever spread you want to measure with wins and leave it at that.
Last edited by awy; 09-05-10 at 12:59 AM.
oy vey
wins first? I thought you were infallible.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/aw...81.shtml#NLcya says Fernando Valenzuela won the 1981 NL Cy Young with 13 wins.
"It's a Yankee game, it can't possibly come in under 3 hours."
1981 was a strike shortened season. The Dodgers played 110 games that year - if it was a 162 game season, Valenzuela was on pace for 19.1 wins.
238 more runs to score 1000.
2010 GT record: 8-5 (including two near no-hitters)
That's both true and irrelevant. Thanks to the wild card, the Yankees and Rays both have a greater than 98% chance to make the playoffs at this point. It would take a historic collapse for either team to miss the postseason... so really, they're not dogfighting for anything except home field advantage, and as I'm willing to bet that the players care more about resting up for the playoffs than HFA, you could argue that there's less pressure for CC and Price down the stretch than there was in the early or midseason.
I don't remember jumping over any guns. Just picking them up and shooting them in the air in a rootin' tootin' fashion. -bcom33
Buchholz with a loss in a 5 inning effort today. Good stuff.
Booyah.
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I don't understand how Lee's WAR is more than 2 wins higher than CC's. Does someone with knowledge of the stat know why? Is it the FIP and xFIP advantage?
It has to be - I was wondering the same thing when I saw that Greinke had a higher WAR than CC.
I checked Grienke's WAR recently, I was surprised how high it was. Someone explain to me what accounts for his low FIP, he doesn't have a godly strikeout rate, I must be missing something.
really just K rates, BB rates, and HRs...
(HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)*3-K*2)/IP
"First batter up well here's the pitch: it's a curve. Second batter up because the first got served"
I don't like using Fangraphs' WAR exclusively because of the FIP factor. I think BR's WAR ranking is much more indicative of past performance and Fangraphs' is must for predictive of future performance.
Guess I'm just a traditionalist at heart when it comes to this award.wins first? I thought you were infallible.
That aside, I don't equate Cy Young Award with Most Valuable Pitcher. If that were the case, Mo would win it just about every year.
Ok, but that's not what the award is for.
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
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At this point Felix Hernandez clearly deserves it, but he has a remote chance with less than 15 wins and zero chance with less than 15 wins if Sabathia has over 20.
The Real Deal on the AL Cy Young Race
By Andy Roth, Contributing Editor
New York, NY (Sports Network) - With 28 days left in the regular season, the American League Cy Young award is still up for grabs. It seems the New York Yankees' CC Sabathia is considered the leading candidate, although I think there's another pitcher who has been head and shoulders above the entire field.
There has been a lot of debate on how closely a pitcher's win total should be considered in the Cy Young voting, with contender Felix Hernandez having only 11 victories at this point. I think the story behind Hernandez having so few wins, despite his tremendous numbers otherwise, is really the untold story so far.
Hernandez is pitching for one of the worst offensive teams in the history of the game, and that has had a major impact on his win total. Once you examine the numbers, it doesn't take much to see that "King Felix" has clearly been the best pitcher in the AL. To me, it's a no-brainer.
The Mariners are on pace to score the fewest runs in a season since the inception of the designated hitter in 1973. Seattle is averaging 3.2 runs per game, and actually has produced almost those very same numbers (3.1) in Hernandez's starts.
What this basically means is that if you're in the Seattle rotation, you can't allow more than two runs in a typical start if you hope to get a win. As a matter of fact, the Mariners haven't scored more than three runs in their last eleven games. In further researching how tough it is to compile victories with this atrocious offense, it turns out that in games where the opposition scored at least four runs, the Mariners are an unheard of 6-64.
When you look at all the facts, how can you logically penalize Hernandez for his win total, when this pathetic excuse for a major league lineup (team averages: .236 BA, .300 OPB, .340 SLG) is the direct reason for it? Yankees fans are so concerned about Derek Jeter's poor season (.264 BA, .331 OBP, .373 SLG), but his numbers are better than seven players in the Mariners lineup, and his 60 RBI would make him Seattle's team leader.
My top three candidates for the AL Cy Young in order are Hernandez, Sabathia, and David Price. With the exception of wins, Hernandez leads these two competitors in every other major pitching category. Here's how they stack up:
Wins: Sabathia 19, Price 16, Hernandez 11
ERA: Hernandez 2.30, Price 2.92, Sabathia 3.02
WHIP: Hernandez 1.09, Sabathia 1.20, Price 1.24
BAA: Hernandez .219, Price .230, Sabathia .239
OBP: Hernandez .279, Sabathia .303, Price .306
SLG: Hernandez .318, Price .355, Sabathia .359
IP: Hernandez 219.1, Sabathia 202.2, Price 172.2
CG: Hernandez 5, Sabathia 2, Price 2
SO: Hernandez 209, Sabathia 165, Price 161
K/9: Hernandez 8.58, Price 8.39, Sabathia 7.33
K/BB: Hernandez 3.48, Sabathia 2.44. Price 2.40
BB: Hernandez 60, Sabathia 65, Price 67
BB/9: Hernandez 2.5, Sabathia 2.9, Price 3.5
H/9 Hernandez 7.3, Price 7.7, Sabathia 7.9
To further highlight how run support has played such a major role in this race, let's take a look at some eye-opening numbers on that subject.
Sabathia: 29 starts. Run support: 176. Average runs per start: 6.06
Price: 26 starts. Run support: 129. Average runs per start: 4.96
Hernandez: 30 starts. Run support: 95. Average runs per start: 3.16
Starts in which their team scored at least 5 runs: Sabathia 18, Price 15, Hernandez 7
Starts in which their team scored three runs or fewer: Hernandez 15, Price 8, Sabathia 4
Record in starts allowing a maximum of 3 earned runs: Sabathia 17-3 (3 no- decisions), Price 16-4 (3 no-decisions), Hernandez 11-7 (8 no-decisions).
Aside from win total, there is also the argument that Hernandez is under a lot less pressure pitching for a last-place team in Seattle than either Sabathia or Price, who are playing under the microscope for contenders. But based on what King Felix has done against the Yankees this season, I have a lot of trouble giving credence to that argument. He went into Yankee Stadium twice and completely dominated the defending world champs. In his first start, he threw a complete-game 2-hit shutout with 11 strikeouts. He followed up that performance with eight scoreless innings and another 11 strikeouts. And in his start against the Yankees in Seattle in front of a rare, near-sellout crowd, he pitched a complete game (126 pitches), allowing one run along with nine strikeouts.
As far as pitching under pressure, Hernandez, unlike his two competitors, goes to the mound every game knowing there is no margin for error. He's had to be near-flawless to get his 11 wins. His ERA in those games is a phenomenal 0.82. He's had nine no-decisions this season despite allowing a total of 14 runs in those games and pitching to a 1.91 ERA. Hernandez has pitched three games this season in which he's had a three-run lead after five innings, while Sabathia has been in fourteen such games. And Hernandez has been involved in eleven games where he had a three-run cushion at one point, while Sabathia has had that lead in twenty games. CC has the luxury of being in a lot more games in which every pitch doesn't count and one mistake can be very costly.
And why is anybody assuming Hernandez would crack under the pressure of playing in a big market for a contender? This hasn't affected the likes of Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Adam Wainwright, Chris Carpenter, Clay Buchholz, and Jon Lester. So what evidence is there that Hernandez wouldn't thrive also?
Another argument in the Sabathia-Hernandez debate is that the Yankees play in the much tougher AL East, where wins are harder to come by. But the people that make that argument fail to look at the overall competition each pitcher has faced. They also leave out the fact that the weakest team in the AL West by far is the Mariners. And as far as I know they don't get to play themselves. In that same breath, CC never has to face the team with the best lineup in baseball, because he plays for them.
Within his own division this season, Sabathia has three starts against the Rays, four with the Red Sox, four versus the Orioles (pre-Buck Showalter) and none against the Blue Jays. The only other playoff contenders he's faced are the Rangers, Phillies, and White Sox, having started one game against each of them.
While Sabathia has had ten starts against top-level teams, Hernandez has significantly more with fifteen. King Felix has faced the Yankees (3 games), Rangers (4 games), Twins (2 games), White Sox (2 games), Padres (2 games), Red Sox (1 game), and Reds (1 game).
Sabathia is 5-1 with four no-decisions and a 3.52 ERA in those ten games. In his five wins the Yankees averaged eight runs per game and scored at least five runs in each of those starts. Hernandez is 7-5 with three no-decisions and a 2.41 ERA in his starts against playoff contenders. King Felix had two defeats and one no-decision where he gave up two earned runs in seven innings. And he had another no-decision in which he pitched eight scoreless innings.
And while we're mentioning how many tough opponents each pitcher has faced, shouldn't we mention the cupcakes too? Sabathia has eleven starts against the AL's four worst teams, while Hernandez only has six. Sabathia is 4-0 against the Orioles, 3-0 versus the Mariners, 2-0 against the Royals and 0-1 versus the Indians. Thus, nearly half of his 19 wins have come against some of the worst teams in baseball.
Hernandez has two starts each against the Orioles, Indians, and Royals. His combined ERA for those six games is 1.00, but he managed to go only 2-2. You have to wonder how you can pitch that well against such weak competition and come away with those results. Would you believe that darn run support issue was the problem in the two losses? The Mariners scored one run in each of those two games. In the two wins Hernandez notched, the M's exploded for four runs in one game and three in another. And in the two no-decisions, the bullpen decided to sabotage two excellent performances by Hernandez. He gave up one run in seven innings to the Orioles and left with a 5-1 lead, only to see Brandon League come in and give up five runs in the eighth. In the other no-decision, he pitched seven innings again, giving up two runs, and left with a 4-2 lead. But League blew another potential win for Hernandez by giving up two runs.
The bottom line here is that Felix Hernandez's season is a microcosm of the Mariners season. Seattle is third in the AL with a team ERA of 3.83 but is in last place in the West with a dreadful 54-84 record. The Yankees, meanwhile, are fifth in team ERA at 3.88, but sit atop the AL East with the major's best record at 86-52. It can't be any more obvious that runs do matter when it comes to winning games, especially when the case is this extreme, and Hernandez should not pay a price for it in the Cy Young vote. I think he's clearly been the best pitcher in the league and the numbers don't lie when he beats his closest competitor in every major statistical category besides wins.
Sabathia has had a terrific season, and, to me, is the Yankees MVP. But when you clearly examine the whole story in the Cy Young race, it's clear that "King Felix" should be crowned the winner.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think B-ref WAR for pitchers is calculated using actual runs allowed. If true, this would make a huge difference between fWAR and brWAR.
Neither are perfect, but I would personally go with fWAR.
It's a Price, CC, King Felix three men race now.
I don't really see Price as being likely, he's behind one or both of the other two in everything. Felix has 90% quality starts, I know, who cares about QS? But, who does that, 90% QS over a 200+ IP season? Nobody does that.
If he gets 20 wins and leads the Rays to AL East division title, he will have a great shot. Keeping his ERA under 3 is also another key factor.
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