Gardner is the Yankee LF so I'm not going to compare him to other CF. What he brings to the Yankee offense is below average for a position that know for offense. There are at least a few LF who are both better and obtainable this year or next. By putting Gardner in a spot where he's relatively easy to replace the Yanks have as much as admitted he's not a part of their long term plans.Originally Posted by False1
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
I'm not sure that I see the logic in this. If Gardner fails to become a regular for the Yankees, it will be because of offensive woes. If the Yankees with our offensive firepower can't justify keeping Gardner in the lineup because of his weak offensive, who else can? I suspect that any trading partner will see Gardner as a 4th OF in that situation. Being only 4 months from his 27th birthday, Gardner is getting pretty long in the tooth to be considered a prospect.
If Gardner fails in this attempt to win a starting position, I don't see him having a lot of value in the trade market. I think the Yankees hold on to him as a 4th OF because his defensive prowess and speed give Gardner a lot of value as a 4th OF.
But at what cost? Gardner + a 12M pitcher is definately more valuable than a guy like Crawford.
I tend to agree. Once Granderson was obtained Gardner is just holding down that spot until Jeter or Montero (RF, Swish to LF) possibly need it. Then he's traded to someone who really needs a CF.
#27and still Counting.
With the improvement SEA showed last year upgradeing defense some teams might be willing to put up with sub-par offense to get above avergae CF defense. Especially of OAK shows that upgrading defense can provide similar results this year as Seattle and Texas did last year.
We shall see.
But judged as a LF not a CF.
A CF with great range that had a wRC+ 107 in his first full season, and is currently paid 500K is much more valuable than most here give credit for.
#27and still Counting.
The problem here is good defense is boring to watch, especially to the casual fans.
I think GM's are defensive oriented this year because it's cheaper. No one is going to copy a team (the Mariners) who used replacement level LF'ers last year. Even they replaced their replacement level LF.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
He does that over 500+ PAs for the Yankees this year, there won't be any talk of moving him in the off season.
The question is what is his true MLB talent level? He had one very good 8 week stretch in 2009 surrounded by some pretty poor offensive showings the rest of his time in the bigs.
Ichiro! is paid to get his 200+ hits. His excellent defense in RF accounts for a small part of his salary.
If Gardner pushes anything over wRC100 he's going to be a very very valuable piece with 1 more year of minimum and 3 years of arbitration.
Valuable enough we would require some top shelf talents in return.
Still small sample and there are also bad signs. But in the stats that matter for him, OBP and LD%, he's improved over past two years. With his long history of improvements at every level, I feel confident that he will get better this year given the chance and time.
Basically this kid's bottom is the 4th defensive outfielder and a great pinch runner off the bench and there are good reasons to expect that he can be better than an average offensive player.
IDK it was more than just Endy Chavez in LF for the Mariners - and he blew out his knee. And while they lost something on defense with Beltre, all the guys they brought in - Bradley, Byrnes, Figgans, Kotchman (Wilson mid-year) are for the most part above average to very good defenders.
And this year, yes primarily $ related, the A's follwed that model adding Crisp & Kuzmanoff mostly on the strength of their defense. I'm curious to see how that plays out.
...to hit .325+ - Gradner does that and he'll be paid some serious coin too.
Maybe, but it doesn't have to take $12 mil to upgrade in LF. David DeJesus, a significant upgrade over Gardner, comes to mind and he's due $10.75 through 2011.
On the other hand Pettitte is making about $12 mil. Is Andy + Gardner > Joba + *Crawford (who I don't care for).
* just using him because he was named in your post though I realize $12 mil won't land him as a FA.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
Ichiro also generates $8-10 mil in Japanese advertising revenue.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
Well have to sign/resign 2 pitchers at the minimum. Upgrading an elite defender with a league average bat comes way after that on the priorities list.
A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!
Right, I was responding to the comment that defense was cheap last year.
It was pretty much a snide comment on how defense has always been cheap.
And Crawford will cost more than 12AAV. More like 15~16, cheaper than Holliday but not by much.
I'm not sure about this logic. The Yankees placed Phil Hughes in the fifth starter spot, which is very easy to find pitchers for. Does this mean that Hughes is not a part of their future plans? No.
And I hope you acknowledge that Gardner was a league average offensive player last year. This is not really debatable.
What is debatable is whether or not he will perform in the future.
And puts up a +5ish WAR each season like clockwork.
Coming around to WAR are we?
Your points about Gardner are valid. However, the part about Phil isn't. The Yanks have future plans for him which I'm sure you're aware of.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
touche. I've always liked WAR but think it has it limitations as any stat does.
Exactly. And I'd much rather have Gardner and a 10M pitcher over DeJesus.
#27and still Counting.
I don't know about that Oliver Perez or Davis DeJesus? I know which one I'm taking.
Since when does 248 ABs constitute a full season?
Do you have some information that Girardi doesn't? Joe made it clear when he put Granderson in CF that Gardner hadn't proven himself as an "everyday player."
Actually, it would be Gardner and a $5 million per year pitcher versus DeJesus. DeJesus is owed about $11 million for 2010 AND 2011.
Correct, which means Gardner and someone like Washburn.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
Though you made the assertion that:
A) The Yankees probably do not have plans for Gardner in the future in mind because B) he is in an easily replaceable spot.
Now, you could make an a solid argument for A. But as long as assertion A rests on B, the logic I used still applies (because I showed that even if a player is put in an easily replaceable position, the team may still have them heavily incorporated into future plans).
I would still agree with you though that Hughes' position with respect to the Yankees is fundamentally different from Gardner's, mainly because the Yankees have shown a commitment to Phil's development in the past.
One day you're going to be a fabulous attorney.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
I've come to expect comments like this to be sarcastic. It was, right?
half and half
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
Meh, fair enough.
did you ever think that if gardner is above average offensively for a cf, that granderson is so far above average offensively for a cf (and even a lf for that matter) that it doesn't matter which plays which position cause we still get the production at the plate? the only thing that would really change would be the lettering next to their names on the lineup card. since both are good defenders it doesnt really matter which spot in the OF they jog out to every inning.
essentially this negates the argument about brett's value being tied to the LF position. joe thought it better to not have to move granderson back and forth or have to use winn/thames in cf if he wanted to have a different look in the lineup. and having granderson's way above average production at cf, as well as at almost every other position on the diamond for that matter, means that we don't have to worry about gardner's perceived below average production in LF.
It was his first full season in MLB. That means he didn't start the year in MiLB or spend any time at all there. But you really missed the point, So ........A CF with great range that had a wRC+ 107 in his first full season(with 248 ABs due to a broken wrist and competing for his position) and is currently paid 500K, is much more valuable than most here give credit for.
No, it means since he's playing LF (and not CF where he would be an "everyday player" on many teams) he will give way to a batter that just crushes only LH pitching to a career .851 OPS.
Randy Winn is a 4th OF who is paid 1.1M who you would cringe at the thought of having to take over in CF. Gardner is a legitimate plus defensive CF who is currently at least the equal to Winn offensively. In a trading scenario, at 500M, a cost controlled Gardner is worth much more than a 4th OF.
#27and still Counting.
This season, Gardner looks waaaaaaaaaaaay better stealing bases. A lot more polished and studied as to pitcher moves. He put on a clinic last night, albeit in one attempt.
"First batter up well here's the pitch: it's a curve. Second batter up because the first got served"
If you want to use full season in that sense, okay. However, you missed my point as well. No one knows if Gardner can maintain a level of productivity at the big league level for a full season.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Girardi say that Granderson was staying in CF and not moving to LF because Gardner hasn't proven himself to be an everyday player. Maybe Gardner would be an everyday player on some teams but Girardi isn't ready to declare him so for the Yankees yet. Certainly, Girardi wasn't ready to make a commitment which could negatively affect Granderson who has more value to the Yankees long-term than Gardner. The Yankees are hedging their bets in case Gardner doesn't prove to be a big-league hitter and the jury is still out.
Frankly, I cringe at the thought that we are paying Winn anything. I don't dispute that Gardner might have more value in a trade than Winn but that doesn't necessarily mean that Gardner would bring a lot in return if he fails to be a starting OF for the Yankees. If Gardner fails to stay in the starting lineup for the Yankees, I believe that almost all teams would view him as a 4th OF.
I don't think that's true. Multiple teams in the offseason tried to trade for Gardner. Maybe he's not a starter for other contending teams, but there are definitely multiple teams with at least one starting outfielder worse than Gardner.
Wrong as far as I know. I never heard him say "Gardner hasn't proven himself to be an everyday player" and if I missed it please provide the link.
Bottom line is that Gardner's value is as a starting CF, which he would definately be on some other teams, including those who tried to trade for him over the winter. He just happens to be on a team with a better starting CF. So in a trade I would absolutely expect to get more value back than that eaqual to a 4th OF. Apparently you and perhaps others here don't agree. Hence my opinion that he is undervalued by many here.
#27and still Counting.
Neither rally happens without him beating out two grounders today.
"In baseball, you don't know nothin'." - Yogi Berra
Exactly. Everyone should stop whining. We have as close to a perfect team as possible, and I'm glad Cashman wanted to keep one of our own, a kid who hustles out everything and tries his hardest, instead of getting a superstar. We should be thankful we have Brett instead of whining about his deficiencies.
These are the days that you have to enjoy watching Gardner play. On base twice, scores twice. 2 out RBI infield hit that he beat out by a good two steps. On the first pitch to Jeter, takes off for second putting pressure on the defense and enabling Granderson to score.
3 infield singles and now he's hitting .308 with a .400 OBP.
Small samples.
The coming of The Carpenter.
“I love to hit. I want to hit .300, .400, .500. I just love to hit.”
Good point. The Royals are starting Podsednik in LF and paying him $1.75 mil ($2 mil option for 2011). The A's will use the $6 million man Coco Crisp in CF once he's healthy ($8 mil option for 2011).
At league minimum Gardner must be more attractive than those 2.
edit: Podsednik is the Royals LF not CF.
Diplomacy is the ability to tell a man to go to hell so that he looks forward to making the trip
Is Posednik still leading the league in hitting??
No. Martin Prado has the highest BA at .463.
They don't play in the same league. Podsednik is currently leading his league in hitting with a BA of .436
Yea. My bad.
I'm glad you said this.
A few weeks ago I had posted something about how, as fast as Gardner is, I hadn't been very impressed with his approach as a base stealer coming into this season. For what my opinion is worth, he's looked better to me so far this season. Maybe he's worked on it.
"Whether they're offended or not, that's the way it is."
He was over 80% last year and over 85% for his MilB career. He's an excellent base stealer. He'll look more comfortable as he sees more MLB pitchers moves. It's called experience.
Brett Gardner:
BA/SLG: .296
OBP: .387
OPS: .683
R: 8 (assuming 500PAs, he's on pace for 129Rs)
SB: 5 (assuming 500PAs, on pace for 80.6SBs)
Having Gardner at the bottom of this lineup makes it a very well balanced lineup. Granderson and Gardner give this whole Yankee Offense a multi dimensionality it has rarely had in the past..a nice blend of average, power, patience, and speed. We can manufacture runs, drive you crazy on the bases, or clear the bases with round trippers. It's early, but I really like what I'm seeing so far.
We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.
It is never too late to be what you might have been.
Don't let stats get in your way.
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