2010 Brett Gardner Performance Thread

[Yankees13]

Love him wreaking havoc at the bottom of the lineup. It takes this lineup to another level of absurdity.

[SLURPEE]

Since he lead off when Jeter sat, could this be an indicator that when inter-league comes (in NL parks) he'll be batting second? or will it be Granderson?


ss jeter
lf gardner
1b teixeira
3b rodriguez
2b cano
c posada
cf granderson
rf swisher
p ******

[OldYankeeFan]

Love him wreaking havoc at the bottom of the lineup. It takes this lineup to another level of absurdity.

We currently have the most circular lineup I have ever witnessed.

[THEBOSS84]

We currently have the most circular lineup I have ever witnessed.

And you're...old...right?

[Yankee Tripper]

Since he lead off when Jeter sat, could this be an indicator that when inter-league comes (in NL parks) he'll be batting second? or will it be Granderson?

too far off to tell but if I had to guess right now swisher would bat 2 in interleague with Gardner 8th.

[OldYankeeFan]

And you're...old...right?

Haha. Old enough to be familiar with the best of the DH lineups... aren't you?

[OldYankeeFan]

too far off to tell but if I had to guess right now swisher would bat 2 in interleague with Gardner 8th.

That's my guess too.

[Tyler Durden]

Since he lead off when Jeter sat, could this be an indicator that when inter-league comes (in NL parks) he'll be batting second? or will it be Granderson?


ss jeter
lf gardner
1b teixeira
3b rodriguez
2b cano
c posada
cf granderson
rf swisher
p ******

Gardner's SB ability with the pitcher batting could be a major factor in NL games, so I like him batting 8th in that situation. Maybe something like this:

ss Jeter
cf Granderson
1b Teixeira
3b Rodriguez
2b Cano
c Posada
rf Swisher
lf Gardner
p ******

[JSG]

too far off to tell but if I had to guess right now swisher would bat 2 in interleague with Gardner 8th.

that's probably it, but if brett is percolating i could see him leadoff w jeter #2.

[grizy]

that's probably it, but if brett is percolating i could see him leadoff w jeter #2.

If Gardy keeps it at at his current level of production, he's going to hit leadoff come inter-league yeah.

Actually if he stays at his current level, he won't be batting 8th/9th for much longer.

[Yankee Tripper]

If Gardy keeps it at at his current level of production, he's going to hit leadoff come inter-league yeah.

Actually if he stays at his current level, he won't be batting 8th/9th for much longer.

Brosious drove in a 100 runs hitting 9th in 1998. Gardner will be batting 9th all seson unless god forbid Jeter gets hurt.

[CommerceComet]

What I find most humerous is that the anti Gardner people will be the first to jump up and down and declare that his last years wRC+ of 107 is irrelevant because it was only in 284 PA, yet they would use the stats of only a few bad games that might bring his OBP down to a dreadful .400 to prove their point that he is merely a 4th OF.

Since I was the one who raised that concern, I assume this post is directed at me. You're welcome to review my posts on this thread (or any other) and last year's Gardner-Melky threads and find where I have ever done this. I've followed baseball long enough to have a healthy skepticism about young players and to know that a few good or bad games are not a good basis to form an overall evalution of a player. I found a long time ago that is a good way to make bad decisions.

Other than hate or pigheadedness, is there really ANY other reason why this makes sense?

I don't know. Ask someone who does what you are complaining about. Just because someone is not as impressed as you are, doesn't mean some sort of agenda. You might want to review the community standards. Questioning someone's motives is just an indirect way of saying he or she must be too dumb to understand the argument which is why it is generally prohibited on forums.

I am impressed by Gardner's performance this season but I am just not sure this is the "real" Brett Gardner. If he performs well, I don't have an issue with Gardner starting. Why would I? I'm a Yankee fan first and an individual player fan second.

[grizy]

Brosious drove in a 100 runs hitting 9th in 1998. Gardner will be batting 9th all seson unless god forbid Jeter gets hurt.

I was thinking more along the lines of someone slumping or NJ twisting something while walking.

[Yankee Tripper]

Since I was the one who raised that concern, I assume this post is directed at me. You're welcome to review my posts on this thread (or any other) and last year's Gardner-Melky threads and find where I have ever done this. I've followed baseball long enough to have a healthy skepticism about young players and to know that a few good or bad games are not a good basis to form an overall evalution of a player. I found a long time ago that is a good way to make bad decisions.
I don't know. Ask someone who does what you are complaining about. Just because someone is not as impressed as you are, doesn't mean some sort of agenda. You might want to review the community standards. Questioning someone's motives is just an indirect way of saying he or she must be too dumb to understand the argument which is why it is generally prohibited on forums.

I am impressed by Gardner's performance this season but I am just not sure this is the "real" Brett Gardner. If he performs well, I don't have an issue with Gardner starting. Why would I? I'm a Yankee fan first and an individual player fan second.

Good post - you've been very consistant on Gardner. I too share your skeptisim on him as players with his skill set (speed as primary asset with distinct lack of power) have often struggled at the MLB level.

I, like you, also hope he suceedes but he'll always be view with a healthy does of skeptisim until he's proven himself for at least a year or two at the big league level.

[OldYankeeFan]

Questioning someone's motives is just an indirect way of saying he or she must be too dumb to understand the argument which is why it is generally prohibited on forums.

But I wasn't questioning "your" motives at all. I was responding to those that YOU referred to who will "talk about him being no more than a 4th OF " if he has a few bad games.

I was merely trying to point out that is hightly unlikely that they would do that after only a couple of bad games, because all of those skeptical of Gardner call his 2009 season a SSS so how could they then, after just a few bad games, use those few games to prove their point? And IF they did, then yes I would with good cause question their motives.

I've followed baseball long enough to have a healthy skepticism about young players and to know that a few good or bad games are not a good basis to form an overall evalution of a player. I found a long time ago that is a good way to make bad decisions.

I know that and agree with you. So again, I was NOT questioning you but rather questioning the hypocracy of anyone who would first dismiss last year's 284 PA's as not a good indicator due to it being a SSS and then turn around and use just a couple of games to prove their point.

I'm sorry if I offended, that was not my intent.

[Blazer]

Good post - you've been very consistant on Gardner. I too share your skeptisim on him as players with his skill set (speed as primary asset with distinct lack of power) have often struggled at the MLB level.

I, like you, also hope he suceedes but he'll always be view with a healthy does of skeptisim until he's proven himself for at least a year or two at the big league level.

I agree with this. Make no mistake I'm very happy about Gardner's hot streak and what he's contributed, yet I'm also not sold on a player whose skill is speed and little else. However, he does appear to be more patient at the plate than most of his ilk.

[CommerceComet]

I know that and agree with you. So again, I was NOT questioning you but rather questioning the hypocracy of anyone who would first dismiss last year's 284 PA's as not a good indicator due to it being a SSS and then turn around and use just a couple of games to prove their point.

I'm sorry if I offended, that was not my intent.

I apologize for taking that statement more personally than I should have. (I just spent a long time on the phone (mostly on hold) with an IRS agent this morning trying to clear up some tax issues for a charity I do volunteer work for. It put me in a pretty cranky mood. )

For the sake of the Yankees, I hope that you are right about Gardner and I am wrong. You''ll have to be patient with me until my natural conservatism about young players is overcome.

[GordonGecko]

... yet I'm also not sold on a player whose skill is speed and little else...

You say little else because you hate him

[Blazer]

You say little else because you hate him

strange

[OldYankeeFan]

I apologize for taking that statement more personally than I should have. (I just spent a long time on the phone (mostly on hold) with an IRS agent this morning trying to clear up some tax issues for a charity I do volunteer work for. It put me in a pretty cranky mood. )

For the sake of the Yankees, I hope that you are right about Gardner and I am wrong. You''ll have to be patient with me until my natural conservatism about young players is overcome.

No problem and I hope evrything went as well as could be expected with the IRS.

As for Gardner, I understand how his fugly swing (which while improving still has a lot more room to go) can get in the way of true love, but early signs show another very possible progression as his GB/FB ratio of 1.00 last year is 2.86 so far this season, while his K% is down to 10% from 16%. If he keeps those up, believe me you will eventually become a fan regardless of what he looks like.

[MLB007]

But at what cost? Gardner + a 12M pitcher is definately more valuable than a guy like Crawford.

I tend to agree. Once Granderson was obtained Gardner is just holding down that spot until Jeter or Montero (RF, Swish to LF) possibly need it. Then he's traded to someone who really needs a CF.

You are REALLY thinking OLD Yankees for sure. These Yanks DO value defense. It's a big part of not keeing Damon and Matsui.
We were getting old and very slow. Getting Granderson and putting Gardner in left is not an accident because they couldn't sign anyone better. Swisher in left? WHY??

[MLB007]

The problem here is good defense is boring to watch, especially to the casual fans.

That's just silly. Maybe to uneducated fans. Great defense is breathtaking to watch.
No part of the game I enjoy more.

[MLB007]

He does that over 500+ PAs for the Yankees this year, there won't be any talk of moving him in the off season.

The question is what is his true MLB talent level? He had one very good 8 week stretch in 2009 surrounded by some pretty poor offensive showings the rest of his time in the bigs.

OR He finally settled down and was in a VERY GOOD groove when he broke his damn finger.

[THEBOSS84]

You are REALLY thinking OLD Yankees for sure. These Yanks DO value defense. It's a big part of not keeing Damon and Matsui.
We were getting old and very slow. Getting Granderson and putting Gardner in left is not an accident because they couldn't sign anyone better. Swisher in left? WHY??

They didn't re-sign their DH because they valued defense? You don't say!

[OldYankeeFan]

We were getting old and very slow. Getting Granderson and putting Gardner in left is not an accident because they couldn't sign anyone better.

Haha. You like preaching to the choir much?

[JSG]

These Yanks DO value defense. It's a big part of not keeing Damon and Matsui.We were getting old and very slow. Getting Granderson and putting Gardner in left is not an accident because they couldn't sign anyone better.

CHECK. i think brett will get his chance to stick. IMO he's been pretty solid so far, but to pencil him in longer term he'll have to show he can get the ball out of the IF on a consistent basis. he doesn't need to be a power guy at all. with this monster lineup, and his excellent speed, baserunning and D, i think he just has to show some consistency at the plate.

PS re damon, i think cashman was perfect throughout, tho i was surprised they lowballed so much at the end, 1/6 half deferred for a yr no interest !! i'm still not sure if that was A/ hal saying a budget is a budget, B/ cashman saying boras eat hot lead, or C/ cashman saying ya know, we have DH covered now and w gardner in the fold damon in LF is not worth more than that.

PS 2 scintillating hypo for the day: 7/31, tigers are well behind the twinks in the central and well behind the rays for the WC. tigers offer up damon for circa $3.5MM. who's our LFer 8/1 ??

[MLB007]

Wrong as far as I know. I never heard him say "Gardner hasn't proven himself to be an everyday player" and if I missed it please provide the link.

Bottom line is that Gardner's value is as a starting CF, which he would definately be on some other teams, including those who tried to trade for him over the winter. He just happens to be on a team with a better starting CF. So in a trade I would absolutely expect to get more value back than that eaqual to a 4th OF. Apparently you and perhaps others here don't agree. Hence my opinion that he is undervalued by many here.

Do YOU think Granderson is a better CF? I don't. He's very good, but so is Gardner. I keep seeing him freeze on those balls right at him. Tough chances for sure, but I think Gardy gets a better jump. If he's AS fast, he's getting to more balls.
Personally, I think the Yankees want nothing more than for Gardner to succeed. That they value the small ball ability he brings FAR more than anyone here. And that they've stuck him in LF to keep him on the down low. Out of the center light of playing center field in Yankee stadium WHILE trying to establish himself offensively.
I think they are doing everything possible to keep the pressure off him. To let him develop naturally.
I think if he hits .275+ and steals 50+ bases and scores 100+ runs out of the NINE hole (!!) that he's OUR center fielder long term as is Curtis in Left.
And the money for Crawford can go ELSEWHERE.

[MLB007]

Having Gardner at the bottom of this lineup makes it a very well balanced lineup. Granderson and Gardner give this whole Yankee Offense a multi dimensionality it has rarely had in the past..a nice blend of average, power, patience, and speed. We can manufacture runs, drive you crazy on the bases, or clear the bases with round trippers. It's early, but I really like what I'm seeing so far.

Abso-bleepin-lutely.

I've been sick to death of our lack of speed before this year. Boring to sit around and wait on home runs all the time.

The Angels have been killing us with their speed.
Now we can match them. (since Figgins is gone too)

Me likey

[JSG]

.........And that they've stuck him in LF to keep him on the down low. Out of the center light of playing center field in Yankee stadium WHILE trying to establish himself offensively. I think they are doing everything possible to keep the pressure off him.......

not sure i buy this part. i think curtis is in CF both because he's the all star and it's a marquee position, and also because they're not sure brett is gonna be an everyday player at this point. i think this is more about not wanting to move granderson around if brett is platooned, rather than wanting brett to bloom away from the spotlight, so to speak.

[THEBOSS84]

If Gardner can keep an OPS above .700 while maintaining his excellent defense, there won't be more than a handful of LF's in the entire MLB who will be more valuable than him.

[MLB007]

i keep saying it: if brett gets 500 ABs, he'll steal 50 bases. curtis looks like he's gonna break his own personal best of 26 as well.

Not only does it have to be inspiring to Curtis to see Brett on base in front of him, but don't you already see a "top this" mentality developing between them on the basepaths? Curtis looks much more aggressive than what (limited) times I saw him for the Tigers. Of course he was expected to be a slugger there, while here he's more a speed guy with great all around game. (God I love both these kids!)
After seeing us sign aging, all stars offensively, usually with limited defense for SO long, this year is a joy to me.

[MLB007]

We currently have the most circular lineup I have ever witnessed.

I like that.
I've never heard it, but it instantly is understandable.
And accurate.

[MLB007]

They didn't re-sign their DH because they valued defense? You don't say!

Yes, I DO say. ANY Yankee fans knows that they let matsui go because they just didn't think he could play outfield at ALL anymore. Thus, he REALLY was a DH ONLY and that didn't fit this team as structured. They got Granderson (DEFENSE) and put Gardner in left.
See?

[Yankee Tripper]

OR He finally settled down and was in a VERY GOOD groove when he broke his damn finger.

I could be that. And if it was I'm sure than Brett will be a Yankee regular OF for years to come.

If it was just a nice hot streak that many players have from time to time then the Yanks will be looking for a new OF next year.

I hope Brett keeps this up and makes all the Carl Crawford speculation moot but only time will tell.

[MLB007]

Haha. You like preaching to the choir much?

Sorry, new here. Don't know who's who or how you think. Give me time.

[GordonGecko]

Yes, I DO say. ANY Yankee fans knows that they let matsui go because they just didn't think he could play outfield at ALL anymore. Thus, he REALLY was a DH ONLY and that didn't fit this team as structured. They got Granderson (DEFENSE) and put Gardner in left.
See?

How's Nick Johnson working out in the outfield

[Yankee Tripper]

Yes, I DO say. ANY Yankee fans knows that they let matsui go because they just didn't think he could play outfield at ALL anymore. Thus, he REALLY was a DH ONLY and that didn't fit this team as structured. They got Granderson (DEFENSE) and put Gardner in left.
See?

I think if they knew Matusi would accept a 1-year $8M offer he'd be Yankee right now, bad knees and all.

[OldYankeeFan]

Do YOU think Granderson is a better CF? I don't. He's very good, but so is Gardner. I keep seeing him freeze on those balls right at him. Tough chances for sure, but I think Gardy gets a better jump. If he's AS fast, he's getting to more balls.
Personally, I think the Yankees want nothing more than for Gardner to succeed. That they value the small ball ability he brings FAR more than anyone here. And that they've stuck him in LF to keep him on the down low. Out of the center light of playing center field in Yankee stadium WHILE trying to establish himself offensively.
I think they are doing everything possible to keep the pressure off him. To let him develop naturally.
I think if he hits .275+ and steals 50+ bases and scores 100+ runs out of the NINE hole (!!) that he's OUR center fielder long term as is Curtis in Left.
And the money for Crawford can go ELSEWHERE.

As an all around player? Without question. Defensively? They are close enough where I don't believe it matters much who plays left. And that being the case keeping Granderson in CF where he'd be most comfortable starting the season on a new team I have no problem with. Long term it will be an interesting problem to have if Gardner keeps progressing.

[MLB007]

not sure i buy this part. i think curtis is in CF both because he's the all star and it's a marquee position, and also because they're not sure brett is gonna be an everyday player at this point. i think this is more about not wanting to move granderson around if brett is platooned, rather than wanting brett to bloom away from the spotlight, so to speak.

Agreed, if Gardner is a platoon player you don't want him in CF.
But i think there's a very thin line between them not being sure that Gardy is an everyday'er (valid) AND wanting to keep as much pressure off him so that he has the ultimate chance to succeed. They are copacetic.

[THEBOSS84]

How's Nick Johnson working out in the outfield

Thanks

[MLB007]

How's Nick Johnson working out in the outfield

???? There was never any plans to play him in the OF. He'll occasionally play 1st. (anyone else remember him as an excellent defensive 1st baseman when he was a kid?)
Not sure what point you're trying to make?

[Yankee Tripper]

We currently have the most circular lineup I have ever witnessed.

Does OLD = Senile Just kidding but you sure do have a short memory. I'm not knocking this squad at all and I do love the depth 1-9 and the pressure they can put on opposing teams with power and speed but...

Just last year the team put up a team OPS+ of 122 with 8 of 9 regulars posting 126 or better and as recently as 2007 the Yanks scored 968 runs and had 8 of 9 regulars post an OPS+ of 106 or better with a team OPS+ of 116.

[THEBOSS84]

Does OLD = Senile Just kidding but you sure do have a short memory. I'm not knocking this squad at all and I do love the depth 1-9 and the pressure they can put on opposing teams with power and speed but...

Just last year the team put up a team OPS+ of 122 with 8 of 9 regulars posting 126 or better and as recently as 2007 the Yanks scored 968 runs and had 8 of 9 regulars post an OPS+ of 106 or better with a team OPS+ of 116.

Go check out our current team OPS+, even with Tex and the Nick brothers doing squat. SSS be damned.

[Yankee Tripper]

???? There was never any plans to play him in the OF. He'll occasionally play 1st. (anyone else remember him as an excellent defensive 1st baseman when he was a kid?)
Not sure what point you're trying to make?

So are you saying Tex sits in interleague for Nick Johnson? If not Matsui's inability to play the OF is irrelevent since Swish can easily play 1B.

[THEBOSS84]

So are you saying Tex sits in interleague for Nick Johnson? If not Matsui's inability to play the OF is irrelevent since Swish can easily play 1B.

I was hoping this didn't need to be spelled out.

[MLB007]

I think if they knew Matusi would accept a 1-year $8M offer he'd be Yankee right now, bad knees and all.

I don't know, it would be nice to know but we never will. How many times could he barely hobble around the bases? Tremendous hitter but they weren't sure he was going to be able to stay healthy just DH'ing.......
They replaced him with a guy for a lot less money, so they weren't that concerned about making up his offensive numbers. (IMO)
I think Granderson in CF is enough of an upgrade to offset completely anything we lost by Matsui leaving.

[Yankee Tripper]

Go check out our current team OPS+, even with Tex and the Nick brothers doing squat. SSS be damned.

But with the Tex and the Nick brothers doing squat that's 3 sorta* black holes in the supposed "circular lineup", argument.

*OK some of them are still drawing BBs

[MLB007]

As an all around player? Without question. Defensively? They are close enough where I don't believe it matters much who plays left. And that being the case keeping Granderson in CF where he'd be most comfortable starting the season on a new team I have no problem with. Long term it will be an interesting problem to have if Gardner keeps progressing.

Strictly defensively. And I agree, the long term will be interesting.

[THEBOSS84]

But with the Tex and the Nick brothers doing squat that's 3 sorta* black holes in the supposed "circular lineup", argument.

*OK some of them are still drawing BBs

Nice, "The Nick brothers" has stuck. The point is, those 3 will produce at a .800+ OPS clip (considerably higher) so, if our team OPS+ is 138 now, imagine what it'll be like in a month.

[Yankee Tripper]

I don't know, it would be nice to know but we never will. How many times could he barely hobble around the bases? Tremendous hitter but they weren't sure he was going to be able to stay healthy just DH'ing.......
They replaced him with a guy for a lot less money, so they weren't that concerned about making up his offensive numbers. (IMO)
I think Granderson in CF is enough of an upgrade to offset completely anything we lost by Matsui leaving.

$2M difference ($1.5 if they buyout Nick's "mutual") option isn't "a lot less money". And I seem to recall Godzilla "hobbling around the bases" 28 times last year and 4 more in the post season. And seeing as he's hobbling around with 3 HRs and a 1.000+ OPS so far this season seems like he might have something left in the tank.

I don't blame Matsui for presenting and quickly signing an offer with LAA based on what the market for DHs looked like but I still think if he'd have offered the same deal to NYY Cashman would have taken it.

OH and BTW I'm a big supporter of the Granderson deal and the Johnson signing once Matsui was off the board but I'd have prefered Matsui to Johnson.