Doesn't matter what you believe.Originally Posted by Gusto
Go read the article from the Post Gazette today.
Doesn't matter what you believe.
Go read the article from the Post Gazette today.
Exactly where in that article does it state or imply they turned down a bigger offer to take Pittsburgh's offer, because of the relationships?
clear, concise, correct
It says the Pirate's offer was competitive - in the same ballpark - as the other offers. In that case, the Mexican team went with the known quantity.
Stinks we lost out on Heredia, are we rumored on any other guys? I just came back from being out of town so I'm not caught up yet.
simply ridiculous to think that a multimillion dollar deal is brokered on "who you know first." the other ml teams are not exactly rogue and creditless organizations. this may be the reality, but it's still silly.
as such, i'll still believe the pirates made a slightly bigger offer.
oy vey
Nobody said they don't spend ANY money. They just spend like a mid-market team.
Which is fine, since they overspent on Tex.
Just don't try to convince me they are going to sign too many big $ IFA's. Not gonna happen.
WARNING! This post may be offensive to little girly men or women with soft feelings.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
This is what the article says:
"Competitive" certainly doesn't mean outbid. I don't think anyone on here knows what really happened, but I don't get the sense that he was sold to the highest bidder. It's also possible they got bids from other teams (like the Yankees) to set a price for the Pirates.The Mexican Baseball League began allowing Veracruz to entertain offers after midnight Wednesday. Several other Major League Baseball teams had pursued Heredia, but the Pirates long ago established a firm relationship with the player, his family and the Veracruz officials who had the final say. Moreover, by all accounts, the Pirates' offer was competitive.
....
In an interview with the Post-Gazette last Thursday in Mazatlan, Gayo had expressed guarded optimism that an agreement would be struck, even though the high-spending New York Yankees were among the most aggressive of the other pursuers.
.....On the player level: Jesus "Chino" Valdez, the Pirates' Mexican scouting supervisor, had known Heredia since he was 5 and became like a father figure to him in recent years. Valdez spent roughly three-quarters of his time in the past year working directly with Heredia, and Gayo, too, spent extensive time in western Mexico.
On the team level: Gayo has known Jose Antonio Mansur, owner of Veracruz, for two decades. And it was Gayo who accompanied Heredia through the process of having his amateur rights purchased by Veracruz on the first day eligible -- Jan. 1 of this year -- with an understanding that the Pirates ultimately wished to buy those rights away.
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
What I think happened in this case, is the Pirates had a relationship with this guy, and the only team he was signing with was Pittsburgh.
Quite often in business and sports that is what happens. For example: Think about what happens in HS & College Basketball, where College Basketball teams get guys because they have relationships with coaches (Not to mention "Nike Camps" and such).
If he would have signed with Toronto or someone else, or a protracted negotiation, fans would have reason to be upset (Saying the team is getting cheap). But since that did not occur, we really don't.
yea, but other teams should have had contact with the guy and made their offers known.
oy vey
But who are he and his family going to listen to? Besides, the team is getting 3/4s of the money
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
they'll listen to the best offer, which may not be the one with the highest bonus mind you since the guy's goal is to reach the majors asap and develop his skills in the system. yea, on those grounds pirates are better.
oy vey
In all honesty the Yankees offer the best opportunity for almost anyone who has a certain mindset (Which is means not being like Tabatha, Cole or Chris Smith) to reach the Majors (In The Bronx or in another place). If anyone read the Mike Ashmore article on Yankee Minor Leagues via RAB, you would understand why. http://thunderbaseball.wordpress.com...-in-the-future.
What kind of mindset did Cole have? The "I'm from a filthy rich family so I'd rather go to college where I can earn an education, play baseball, and be a minor deity while shredding copious amounts of as* every night" mindset? Tough to see why he wasn't too worried about his opportunity.
hmm, i dunno. replacement level on the ml club is too high for non-elite prospects to crack the roster for a permanent shot.
oy vey
Tex has nothing to do with anything, they spent heavily on Gary Sanchez, SLade, and JR last year ~6.5mil on 3 players.
It's quite possible (heck quite likely) the yankees don't see anyone out ther right now worth dropping big bucks on.
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
ultra madMatt (Pittsburgh): What have you heard about Luis Heredia from scouts you have talked to?
Kevin Goldstein: Ultra-long, ULTRA-projectable. Already up to 93 with smooth, easy mechanics. Has feel for secondary pitches, but they still need plenty of work. Huge upside.
oy vey
Matt (Pittsburgh): What have you heard about pretty much any international free agent signing pitcher from scouts you have talked to?
Kevin Goldstein: Ultra-long, ULTRA-projectable. Already up to 93 with smooth, easy mechanics. Has feel for secondary pitches, but they still need plenty of work. Huge upside.
fixed
im just messing by the way, before anyone freaks out
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
Yankees send Damon Oppenheimer and scout Billy Eppler to watch Yu Darvish http://bit.ly/dlA41Y
http://twitter.com/npbtracker/status/21701392361
i will accept not signing Heredia if we get Darvish.
but darvish money is like 50x heredia money
oy vey
oh so?
.......what
oy vey
Kinda an entire different animal.
"I see Jesus Montero as a potential once-in-a-generation force on offense."
It's an asian derogatory remark from the Mr Moto movies. It means oh really? Since I obviously know the money will be different, but I'd still want him.
yea, but he's not a prospect. he's just a free agent from another major league. he's not going to the gcl after signing or some ................ like that. more importantly, the degree and concentration of risk are all different too.
oy vey
Is Darvish a backup plan for Lee?
No. It's not even known if Darvish 100% wants to come to MLB or if the Ham Fighters will post him. Although there has been an upswing in speculation regarding his posting, he's not eligible for legit FA for another three years.
"I see Jesus Montero as a potential once-in-a-generation force on offense."
Of course he is also already as talented as heredia could hope to be
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
still, it's putting your resources in 1 basket that's priced at or (with the posting procedure) above market.
there are plenty of examples against 1 to 1 translation of the japanese league to the majors, so there is still a lot of risk.
oy vey
I'm trying to understand here, are you really making an argument for heredia?
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
idk why that would be your question. i'm just saying they are so different kinds of "intl free agents" and cost so differently, that a potential acquisition of yu darvish doesn't have any relation with the failure on heredia.
now, if they took the entire ifa money and threw it at darvish, it would be a really risky way of doing business and i would probably be against that.
oy vey
How would taking a budget away from a year of ifa and investing it in darvish be risky? At worst you are loosing 5 mil and putting it into a player who needs no development at the minor league level, can pitch in a potential championship winning rotation from day 1, and would instantly possess some of the games best stuff. Oh and you are signing him at 23-24.
If that's what it required to secure a talent like darvish than so be it
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
well, if we are to play that game, darvish money wouldn't be 1 year's of ifa budget, it would be like 5 years.
oy vey
It's not gonna be any years budget
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
maybe so, which is why heredia and darvish are entirely separate subjects. but i think if they are serious about darvish it will cut back on other areas.
oy vey
A similar thing happened years ago to the Yanks. By reports at the time, the Yanks had a much higher bid than the Mariners to Felix Hernandez, but Hernandez had a better relationship with the M's people and signed with them.
Sometimes people do things that aren't in their best financial interest for reasons that cannot be readily explained.
I never said they were entirely related. The poster said he would be ok with missing out on heredia is we got darvish. You replied about risk being different with the two(presumably based on the cost) and I said darvish is already what we could only wildly dream of heredia becoming, plus he is able to step in immediately.
If the difference between having darvish and not is heredia, so be it would be my point
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
but the problem is, missing out on heredia doesn't increase the chance of getting darvish at all.
oy vey
I suspect that the reason the Yanks are there is to double check where he is now. He got shut down with injury issues for a while in 2009- some say it was his back, other sites say it was his shoulder.
Here is more on the guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Darvish
That's impossible to say, since we don't know what or even if the Yankees bid. Assuming they did, they could reallocate that money anywhere, unless you expressly know where the Yankees plan to spend (or save,for that matter) the money
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
DO stated to LM that there is a list of players that they are scouting over there.
it's very possible to say given the scale of money involved.
oy vey
Yea, because the Yankees couldn't win the bid by 2-3 million dollars, which is essentially heredia?
It's 100% impossible to say either way, none of us know what the Yankees do with their money
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
Of course. I was responding to a poster who asked if Yu was a fallback for Cliff, which he is not given the cloudiness surrounding Yu and Nippon's plans. Also, I know more than enough about Darvish, thanks.
"I see Jesus Montero as a potential once-in-a-generation force on offense."
that's ridiculous for a variety of reasons. still, i have no idea why you are trying to make this argument given its obvious holes.
oy vey
There's no argument at all, though there is clearly nothing ridiculous about saying not spending 3 mil now means they may spend it later. Seems pretty non-ridiculous
"Montero hasn't delivered completely on his raw power, but he's close to projecting as an 80 hitter with 80 power on the 20-80 scouting scale"-BA
so it's nonridiculous that spending 3m would prevent them from signing darvish, while spending 100m on darvish would have "i cannot predict!" effect on the rest of ifa. gotcha
oy vey
I wonder who the Yanks are scouting over there. I'd much rather go for some inexpensive Japanese relievers and hope to catch lightning in a bottle (Okajima) instead of spending tens or hundreds of millions on Darvish. I think most Japanese starters have shown after a year or two once the league gets used to them that they're not as good. I remember Dice-K having a couple decent years, Nomo at first, but then they either get hurt, maybe due to all the throwing they do over there, or the league figures them out.
I have to agree with your view point.
Could even have to do with the routine change. You get used to pitching one way and have to adjust once you come to the states. American pitchers don't throw as much between starts either I believe.
Either way, you seem correct, MLB does seem to catch up to these guys, even if they have a good start.
WARNING! This post may be offensive to little girly men or women with soft feelings.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Must you be so defensive and prick-ish in so many posts?
I'm sure the Darvish link was for anyone that doesn't know more than enough about him. He simply quoted you to piggyback off your thoughts.
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