Brett Gardner is better than Austin Jackson...Originally Posted by murpjf88
Since when do you want two Punch and Judy guys in your outfield?Since when do you rely on homerun pop from your leadoff guy? Hey, a guy who's on pace for 190 hits while scoring 100 runs, I'd sign up for that.
How now brown cow. It means there's two sides to every story, and not everyone sees him as a future failure like so many in this forum are predicting. Its not suppose to prove anything.
The first half Gardner was better, not the second half. Will the real Brett Gardner please stand up.
We wouldn't. Ajax would still be develoiping in the minors this year..
How people see him doesn't change his ludicrous BABIP and K rate.
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
Unfortunately, we got 'em. In Gardner and Granderson. Anybody who says they knew that they'd have a combined 16 hrs and 72 ribbies out of those two would be lying. I bet that most of us thought that Grandy himself would have exceeded those numbers at this point (by far), considering that most were predicting 35-40 homers from him.
I'm not going to kid myself into thinking that we'd field AJax and Gardner in the same OF either, but Punch and Judy is what would have been expected if we went that route in 2011 or so. We certainly didn't expect this of Granderson. To me it's more about Granderson sucking than Ajax vs. Granderson, because AJax wasn't starting here in 2010, plus it seems he fell out of favor with Cashman. When I think AJax, I think more in terms of the better return he could have yielded; certainly better than such a flawed platoon player in Granderson. Who knows, but maybe AJax + could have gotten Lee...or Dunn....or whomever. We'll never know. But the crappy play we've received in Granderson plus his escalating contract, while AJax shows promise is what stings most.
And to those touting Granderson's defense in CF and calling it "stellar", are you actually watching the games, or just basing it on flawed UZR ratings?
In fact, Sterger claims that, in one of the photos Favre allegedly sent her, he's masturbating — while wearing a pair of Crocs.
Granderson does not deserve to wear pinstripes.
He doesn't play like a Yankee.
He plays like a little leaguer.
He misjudges fly balls.
He does not work counts.
He can't make even productive outs to move runners over.
He continues to swing when up (rarely) 2-0 at junk and strike at any chance he gets.
And then he has that childish nickelodeon smirk that makes you want to smack him upside down.
I can't stand him, and am starting to get annoyed at how Yankee fans defend/refuse to boo him.
Ranger fans saw the same thing with Wade Redden and he is a constant MSG target.
When will Granderson and his smirk get what he deserves?
He really has been a complete failure, he is not a Yankee baseball player.
He should stick to making kiddie books.
His smirk?
God, you're a riot.
Sorry power outage here. Internet was down. I don't discount BABIP or K-rate. His BABIP will drop but his K-rate can improve over time. Maybe Detroit fans see it as a rallying cry around a young player with a lot of upside in the midst of a lost season. It could be that fans, who see him on an everyday basis see past the high K-rate and BABIP and see a talent somewhat comparable to what we see in Gardner. Its just another perspective this time from a Detroit point of view.
Here's some food for thought and some more insight on what we can continue to expect from Granderson in the coming months.
Austin Jackson is No Curtis Granderson
http://motorcitybengals.com/2010/08/...is-granderson/
As Sherman points out, there were many who figured Granderson was on the verge of putting up a 40-homer season in New York. He’d hit 30 last season, playing half of his games at Comerica Park. The short right field porch at Yankee Stadium would certainly turn many fly balls into home runs that he never would have gotten in Detroit. It hasn’t happened yet.
Granderson’s numbers have dropped almost unilaterally. He’s walking a lower rate (8.7%) than he did in either of his final two years with the Tigers and he’s striking out more frequently (24.7%) than he has since 2006. Considering that one of the biggest knocks on his game was his propensity to strikeout, this is a serious regression.
Sure, he’s had a few shining moments. He’s provided the Yankees excellent defense in centerfield after two straight season of below average defense in Detroit, so that’s a plus. He’s hit some memorable homers already as a Yankee, as Sherman mentions as well, but those moments have been fleeting at best and it doesn’t figure to get better anytime soon.
The month of August has historically been Granderson’s worst. In his career, Granderson has posted an average of just .234 (24 points lower than his next worst month), a .319 OBP (tied for lowest), and a .419 slugging percentage (58 points lower than next worst month). His career OPS of .736 is easily the worst of any month and he has fewer home runs, doubles, and RBI than in any other month, despite getting more at bats than in two other months. His strikeout total of 122 in August is second only to the 141 he has recorded in the season’s final month, but he’s had almost 100 more at bats in September than in August.
Meanwhile, as Granderson has struggled under the pressures of playing in New York (while trying to maintain his budding television career and all of his various, and commendable, charity contributions), Austin Jackson has thrived in his first season in Detroit.
Not many knew what to expect from AJax, a rookie who had never seen even one major league pitch prior to the season, but he has been better than any of us could have hoped for.
Jackson has covered more ground in center than Granderson could have in Detroit, which has come in quite handy considering the vast expanse of land at the CoPa, not to mention the lack of range typically shown by his corner men. In addition his his glove, Jackson has hit.
Before the season, the cynics pointed to his “unsustainable” .384 BABiP that he produced at AAA last season. There was no way he could come close to that number in the big leagues and therefore he was going to struggle. Well, so far this season, Jackson has a BABiP of .419.
I guess it wasn’t all that unsustainable after all.
In fact, in Jackson’s entire minor league career, he never posted a BABiP of less than .346 (major league average is .300). Now, can we expect that he’ll continue to lead the league in this category? No, probably not, but we can expect him to continue to mature as a hitter and eventually cut down of his strikeouts and raise his walk rate. If he does those things, he’ll remain productive when his BABiP comes back down to Earth.
For those of you that like comparisons, here’s a couple for you. In 2009 with Detroit, Granderson posted a line of .249/.327/.453/.780 that included 30 home runs and a UZR/150 of -1.5. Jackson has posted a .303/.351/.406/.757 line with just one home run and a UZR/150 of -0.7. He’s been better (minus the slugging numbers) across the board. Granderson was worth 3.1 WAR last season for the Tigers in 160 games. Jackson is on pace to play in 147 games for the Tigers this season and if he maintains his current pace, he win finish with a WAR of 3.2. He’s already been worth 2.2 wins this year, Granderson has a WAR of 1.6.
Sure, there are signs that Jackson will cool off. His walk rate and is lower than Granderson’s and his strikeout rate is higher, but they also aren’t significantly different from his AAA marks of last season. Most of the drop off can be attributed to playing at the highest level. If you factor in the struggles one could expect from a rookie in the big leagues, there is no reason to think that those numbers won’t begin trending the other way, possibly as early as next season.
But if you want the biggest reason that I was (and continue to be) thrilled with the trade made by Dave Dombrowski this winter, it’s this: Granderson is 29 years old and is making $5.5 million this year. He’s owed another $20.25 million minimum over the next two years. Jackson is six years younger and makes the league minimum of $400 thousand this year. He won’t even be eligible for arbitration until after the Yankees have already given Granderson well over $25 million.
I sure am glad the Yankees are footing that bill.
This article sums it up nicely. I think Cashman, if he could do this deal over, would give up Granderson and a prospect to ironically get back Ajax. Jackson is the best center fielder to roam Comeria Park since its opening, period.
Cashman might want Jackson back as a trading chip, but I think he would probably put Gardner in center and have someone with more pop at a corner OF position (although I wouldn't be shocked if CG had a better year next year). Given Jackson's numbers at AA and AAA, I am not convinced Jackson is really going to cut down on his strikeouts and improve his power numbers, but his future is bright if he can.
Anyway, this is probably a more objective assessment of Jackson's potential:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...jacksons-babip
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
This is shtick, right? SierraMist anyone? I mean I'm not exactly Granderson's #1 fan but "childish nickelodeon smirk"? Annoyed that he's not getting boo'd by his own fans? This cannot be a serious post.
Never left the Betances bandwagon.
You find me a little leaguer that can hit to near league average and I'll cut you a check for $100k on the spot.
Some of this crap is ridiculous.
A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!
I guess I don't see why fan perception matters at all.
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
Unfortunately Ajax was traded because he didn't possess power. Neither was he an high OBP player. Had he'd been one of those he'd still be here.
Cashman goes for OBP/Power types.
'It's about championships' Cliff Lee will be taking his talents to the South Bronx.
worst post ever
Baseball is life;
the rest is just details.
he made an even more absurd post about Granderson in the Cashman thread where he called Grandy a "mental midget" and other such non-sense.
I heard this today...Did Coltrane actually exist? This is like being blind for 50 years, regaining sight, and then peering directly at the sun.
Remember Jackson's age. Sometimes I think minor league numbers can be over-analyzed quite frequently. Like Leyland often says, "give me talent anyday". He's got the talent and this year at MLB level he's showing a glimpse of his potential. They think he'll eventually fill out more and hit for power, but right now Tiger's fans are elated with his + 300 ba.
Gardner is looking good in the OF for you guys. Which makes me really wonder what Cashman was thinking when he acquired the lofty contract for Granderson.
I don't think it can be overlooked either how Phil Coke has just been amazing out of the bullpen.
That's saying something, as he has had quite a few that would fit in that category.
Hmmm... FanGraphs or some blog from a guy in Detroit. Not sure which is more credible...
Just imagine if he was Jewish too!
You're ridiculous.
My problem is not that we gave up Ajax for Curtis, Im not a big Jackson fan and I liked the deal at the time but its very alarming to see a player who will make 10 million bucks next year struggle to keep his OBP above .300.
Is Curtis Granderson a better player than Austin Jackson? I still think so
Is Curtis Granderson a good investement for the New York Yankees? Not even clsoe (unless he somehow improves but I wont hold my breath)
"I am the law, bitch"
All depends on whether you think the player we see today is the player we see next season. I think a second year in NY, a full offseason with this coaching staff, some adjustments... and there's reason to believe he can hit to his career line, play good defense (although I'd move him to LF if Gardner is here to stay) and great baserunning. If he does that, he's a good investment... a VERY good investment in fact.
He's not likely to sniff an OBP in the .380+ range like we were blessed to have with Bernie, but he can still be a very good player with very good power... and if he does that he's a bargain at ~$22MM for 2 years.
I do hope however that if he stays the team does the right thing defensively... if Gardner is the superior CF, which I believe he is, then slot Granderson over to LF. This whole concept of keeping him in CF out of fear that he'll appear less productive as a corner OF is stupid. There are some dumb GM's out there, but none that are going to be fooled by this.
I don't think I've ever seen an MLB regular whose swing plane is any more severely tilted as Curtis's is this year - he looks like he should have a driver in his hand rather than a bat.
How does it compare to prior years?
I'm not sure who does a data analysis on a batter's swing. But it coincides with his increased rate of fly ball. This is just an observation. Kevin Long may be working with him as I speak on this very issue.
2008- 170 fly balls (35%)
2009- 229 fly balls (47%)
2010- 111 fly balls (45%)
A huge spike over the last two years.
i suspect this is one of the things he will be working on w kevin long, and is likely contributing to his current/former funk. first, the swing was too long, and they are trying to make it more still and shorter to the ball. also, if it's a long swing and on top of that he's going for power -- and w 30 HRs last yr and the short porch in right -- chances are he's trying to upper cut the ball. that might explain why, when he connects, he crushes the ball -- i don't think he's hit a soft HR all yr, they're all no-doubters -- but it's a dicey proposition when his read or timing are off. i am cautiously optimistic based on the few games thus far, but we'll see ............ let the games begin, as they used to say in the roman coliseum ..........
Gotcha. Wasn't looking for analysis, but when you said "this year" I inferred to mean that included Granderson's swing in prior years. Just curious if this is new (possible cause of diminished performance) or if it's a similar swing just with other problems. Too lazy to go look for video.
You should stick to PM'ing people about life in Connecticut and getting ignored because you're terrible at this whole posting on a message board business.
When that leadoff guy..happens to be playing a premium offensive position?
In other words, "I've got nothing."It is higher, its .303.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
It shouldn't matter one bit.
1923•1927•1928•1932•1936•1937•1938•1939•1941•1943•1947•1949•1950 1951•1952•1953•1956•1958•1961•1962•1977•1978•1996•1998•1999•2000 2009 27-TIME WORLD CHAMPIONS
Isn't Gardner the CF'er of the future and possible future leadoff hitter through the eyes of many?
He also hit a large percentage of flyballs in his career year, 2007.
You'd generally prefer your lead-off hitter to see a lot of pitches and get on base at a pretty good clip. Austin Jackson hasn't shown that ability, while Gardner has. Hell, Gardner isn't even supposed to be hitting for power, but has an identical ISO (.99) as Jackson. Add 50+ SB's (Jackson has 5) just for kicks and it's not really a legit comparison.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
I agree, nobody, possibly in the league, sees more pitches on a per bat basis than Gardner but we were talking HR pop at a premium position.... Unless there's Sabermetrics of the future that can map out Ajax's peak potential in advance, Who's to say he won't develop plate discipline. Players don't peak at age 23.
Ajax has 17 steals.Add 50+ SB's (Jackson has 5) just for kicks and it's not really a legit comparison
Most players do not develop plate discipline once they are in the majors. It happens sometimes....but not much. If you dont have it by now, you likely will never have it.
Jesus Montero since June 1 (286 at-bats):
.325/.386/.605/.991
July 1 (182 at-bats):
.348/.417/.658/1.075
They don't peak, but they also don't suddenly develop something they didn't develop for the last 4 years in the minor league after being in the majors (edit: AND doesn't have any helping factors to help them).
In cases like Cano, as mentioned somewhere else he had the ability to recognize balls to strikes and MAKE contact, thus he grounded out without seeing many pitches, but he did NOT strike out much either.
Not to mention, he had good power for a middle infielder to begin with.
The strike out rate ALONE isn't the issue for Jackson. Neither is the absolute lack of power ALONE in general. Bad plate discipline/low walk rate ALONE can be covered with other factors. The biggest issue is that Jackson has ALL THREE glaring negatives as a combination, which is not a trifecta you want.
A player with high strike out rate can still be a very good player as a slugger (see: practically every typical power hitters). Opposing pitchers respecting their powers and being careful/pitching around them, and these guys may end up with good walk rate.
A player who doesn't walk a lot and doesn't have power can still be a very good player as a contact speedster, the most extreme case being Ichiro. Worst case he can make productive outs by bunting/sac flies/ground out RBIs. In a case with less than 2 outs and men on 3rd, some pitchers would be willing to pitch around them in hopes for a double play, instead of going for a strike out.
That's not really true.
It's not really a requirement and it helps if you can offset it by getting on base a lot.
This is basically what he was in the minors. You're expecting a complete overhaul at the biggest stage. It's happened before, but it's a pretty big gamble.Unless there's Sabermetrics of the future that can map out Ajax's peak potential in advance, Who's to say he won't develop plate discipline. Players don't peak at age 23.
Derp. I was looking at fangraphs and gazed over the ZiPS which had it as 5 SB's.Ajax has 17 steals.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
This is where I struggle to get a true POV from you. I think most would say it's unlikely he'll materially improve his plate discipline or his power. It's possible, but I think most would say not probable. But if there's no "Sabermetrics of the future" that can prove that he won't, do they exist showing that he will? If not, why are you killing our GM on this one? Why not let it play out?
And what seems to be a necessary standard disclaimer on any A-Jax posts... I'm not rooting against him, he's a nice player with some upside.
Thank you! Wow, someone has double standards. Geez.
And sorry, why is it now a sin to root against Ajax? He's on the opposing team, is he not?
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
Its not a sin at all, its just a response to the guy's earlier statement that people are rooting against AJax as a coping mechanism to justify the Granderson trade...which isn't true. Some people just don't consider AJax that good of a player, simply put, and now that he's not a Yankee anymore find no reason to try to hope he'd do better.
Simply put, I like certain Yankees players, but dislike some too. However, I root for all players in a Yankee uniform, no matter the like/dislike.
I only like or have high hopes for certain prospects, but root for all current Yankee prospects, regardless of ability or future.
Oh, and I root against all other TEAMS to play worse than my beloved New York Yankees, but barring a few select douchebag players, don't have a personal dislike against most players.
However I specifically dislike the Boston Red Sox TEAM and find absolute joy and seeing them lose.
PS, I've been wondering for a while, but did you draw your Chrono Trigger avatar yourself? It doesn't look like the official Toriyama art.
I don't think it's a sin at all, but I actually have a soft spot I guess for guys that come up through our system. I mostly put that on there to proactively dodge the "Oh, you guys just are rooting against Jackson!!" nonsense responses. Previously on this topic I literally was accused of "exploit[ing] an unpolished rookie" so I'm just trying to keep the discussion centered.
EDIT - and just to be clear, in this series of course he's the hated enemy.
Ah, gotcha. A coping mechanism...come on. The funny part is that other guy who demands that we boo our own player. Root for the Tiger, boo the Yankee--ah, our fanbase.
Also, Granderson is 1-1 on the day and Ajax is 0-2. Just sayin'!
(And no, I did not draw it myself.)
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
LOL... I refer to that other guy as the "Fireable Offense!!" guy... yeah, Cashman should get fired and Granderson boo'd. Check that, on the to do list.
A while ago, I think I said the hostility re: Granderson frightened me a little bit and got laughed at for it. This is the kinda thing I was talking about. shrug Encouraging people to boo Yankees... really?
Likes the Yankees.
In the guy's defense, have you actually SEEN Granderson's smirk?
I think a mod deleted the "It puts the lotion in the basket or it gets the hose again" line and the bottom of that post.
Which makes me wonder, if the trade packages were reversed and Granderson wasn't directly traded for Jackson, if the reaction would be different.
Like, if Granderson was traded for Melky while Vazquez was for Jackson (ignore the other team's needs for now).
Oh wait, then people would likely be crying for Arodys Vizcaino who was pitching very well...as a 19 years old in A-ball, on how the Yankees gave up an ace in making of the future.
Not a bad night for Curtis so far.
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
3-3 with a walk. Why is this thread not buzzing?
Stella said, "Daddy when you gonna put me in a song?"
(Visit the companion site to NYYFans! It's more than meets the eye: The new Political Soapbox)
Stupid. 3-3 with a BB and Granderson is smirking all over the place. Somebody boo him.
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