The fact that so many people think this trade was a no doubter for the Yankees makes me further pessimistic about it.
When too many people have the same opinion/thoughts on what's going to happen, well usually the reverse happens.
The fact that so many people think this trade was a no doubter for the Yankees makes me further pessimistic about it.
When too many people have the same opinion/thoughts on what's going to happen, well usually the reverse happens.
When the trade was made, it worried me that everyone said he couldn't hit lefties. But the Yankees didn't seem worried - I guess they thought Kevin Long could fix that, just like teams always think they can"fix" a pitcher who has been let go by another team. So much for that theory...
Not a real effective way to evaluate a trade.Originally Posted by SLURPEE
Yea, except I didn't say he was a throw-in, merely trade fodder for a quality player, which he was. Arizona doesn't have five (hell, they barely have one) quality starters, thus they have room for him.
I'm hurt.Glad you are not running the team.
They landed a young CF who's usually a safe bet for a .800+ OPS, who was coming off a year in which he was relatively unlucky. Contemplating what Kennedy could have gotten us in another packaged deal with another prospect is pointless.If the Diamondbacks like Kennedy that much, we clearly could have gotten much more for him in a trade.
From an offensive standpoint, he's basically already there. Jackson has no power and K's a ton.My point is this-Granderson needs to out-produce Jackson by alot to justify the additional salary that is required.
Coke was the definition of a fringe reliever last year and sure as hell wasn't quality at the time of the trade. Him being better than Logan isn't worth fussing over.The increase needs to be much, much more by adding a cost-controlled young SP in Kennedy and quality reliever in Coke. Coke isn't a dominant reliever but is better than quite a few guys that we have in our current bullpen.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
What Granderson doesn't K a lot too?
Austin Jackson is only 22, his power could come as he gets older.
Yea, except I didn't say he was a throw-in, merely trade fodder for a quality player, which he was. Arizona doesn't have five (hell, they barely have one) quality starters, thus they have room for him.
Edwin Jackson and Dan Haren were both very good last year. There are many teams that would take Kennedy for the back-end of their rotation, not just the Diamondbacks.
They landed a young CF who's usually a safe bet for a .800+ OPS, who was coming off a year in which he was relatively unlucky. Contemplating what Kennedy could have gotten us in another packaged deal with another prospect is pointless.
I disagree. So if we can trade Montero for Putz (I wouldnt-just making a point I hope you understand) you wouldn't think about us possibly getting more for him? I would-you should want the maximum value back for a player in a trade instead of just accepting what they got.
From an offensive standpoint, he's basically already there. Jackson has no power and K's a ton.
Granderson OPS+ 102, Jackson OPS+ 103. Jackson's OBP increase over Granderson is more important than Granderson's increase in SLG. I think many people would rather have 30 more points in OBP than SLG.
Coke was the definition of a fringe reliever last year and sure as hell wasn't quality at the time of the trade. Him being better than Logan isn't worth fussing over.
Well, right now Coke has been more effective than Robertson, Joba, Logan, Marte, and Park.
Coke ERA 3.18 WHIP 1.31 IP 28.1 HR 1
Robertson ERA 5.48 WHIP 1.78 IP 21.1 HR 3
Joba ERA 5.72 WHIP 1.41 IP 28.1 HR 1
Logan ERA 4.05 WHIP 1.58 IP 13.1 HR 1
Marte ERA 3.65 WHIP 1.38 IP 12.1 HR 1
Park ERA 5.30 WHIP 1.45 IP 18.2 HR 5
Doesn't look like a fringe reliever to me. Better ERA, WHIP, and HR/9 than all 5 guys. His career ERA is 3.58 and career WHIP is 1.08! He is not a fringe reliever.
(I put my responses in bold in case you couldn't figure it out)
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
you need to look at the general quality of cf's out there. there are not many of them, and granderson is solidly above average offensively at his position. it's really hard to find a cf with a bat, much harder than finding guys like ian kennedy or austin jackson.
oy vey
Jackson has K'd 67 out of 250-26.8% of the time.
Granderson has K'd 36 out of 145-24.8% of the time. (Career 654 out of 2724-24%)
Seems comparable to me....Granderson's first full season he K'd 174 out of 679-25.6%.
Just posting the stats-slim difference in how much either of them strike out.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
We already have an above average CF who is currently playing LF. We didn't have a need in CF with Gardner on the team.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
But we did have a need for a power hitting OF which is what Granderson projected as and who is signed reasonably for the next 3 seasons of his prime with an option for the 4th year.
And Gardner taking off like he did was no sure thing, which is why Winn was brought in in the first place.
Baseball is life;
the rest is just details.
ok. who will play lf then
oy vey
I can agree with you here-they thought they were getting someone better than he has shown. They liked Gardner, but didn't think he would be this good (who did?). His contract is thought to be reasonable but if he doesn't post an OPS around 850 than he is overpaid. 20.25 million the next two years is alot for him if he can't hit left-handed pitching.
The Yankees thought Gardner might be a stop-gap year for Crawford, but Gardner has been amazing-defense, baserunning/stolen bases, and OBP around 380-400 (currently .396). Gardner is currently OPS+ 125-which doesn't include baserunning and defense. He is the better CF.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
You said it was hard to find above average centerfielders, but the Yankees already found one. Granderson's value should be compared as a LF, since the Yankees have a better CF playing LF right now.
The best team the Yankees can field is Gardner in CF and Granderson/Thames platoon in LF. I posted Granderson's numbers against lefties and Thames mashing against lefties earlier. I really doubt the Yankees do that because they traded so much for Granderson and his contract is pretty big.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
Thames as a platoon partner with Granderson? Are you kidding?
that the yankees have gardner who in a breakout year manage to outproduce a slumping granderson doesn't mean cf's are easy to find. your anecdote doesn't prove anything. go look at the league's list of cf then come back
oy vey
I'll repost my post #1497 for you.
He is nasty against righties but awful against lefties....the last 3 years his OPS against lefties is .570 and this year its .553. He kills righties-.850 this year, last 3 years combined .940. We platoon him with Thames we have a great combined player (Thames .854 against lefties, .867 the last 3 years against lefties) but its hard to argue justify that trade if he only plays 75-80% of the time
Granderson against righties the last 3 years OPS .940.
Granderson against lefties the last 3 years OPS .570.
Thames against righties the last 3 years OPS .742.
Thames against lefties the last 3 years OPS .867.
Platoon Granderson with Thames and we can add the .940 with the .867 instead of Granderson's .570. We lose defense, but instead of a black hole on offense Thames can be effective.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
So Granderson's slump has been for 1 3/8 seasons now? His OPS+ last year was 100 and is now 102. His OPS against lefties is .570 the last 3 years-does he just slump when a lefty is pitching?
I hope Granderson climbs back into the OPS .850-.900 range and maigcally starts hitting lefties. I'll be the first to come back and say I'm wrong but I don't see any signs of that happening.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
Thames is not all that great against lefties. He does hit them for some power but not for a great average. And throw in his horrible defense and I think he would be negative as a platoon left fielder. He would give back more on defense than he would contribute on offense. Even as a right handed dh against lefties, he would be barely adequate. I just don't understand what people see in players like Marcus Thames. He is a bench player and nothing more. Like most bench players, the more he plays the more he will be exposed.
I can see your argument. Thames OBP is .326 against Granderson .261 against lefties (last 3 years). Does the extra OBP and much better SLG make up for the lack of defense? I feel it does, but I can understand if you feel otherwise. If Thames starts, I would expect Granderson to come in for him later to pinch-hit against a righy and play defense the last few innings so that should lower the innings Thames has to play on defense.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
Yes, but he has the ability to hit for power. No one in the history of the game has finished with as few homers and as many K's as Jackson is currently on pace for.
and I could sprout wings and save money of fuel. He's playing in a huge park and advanced pitching, at best he'll top out around 10, maybe 15. That's still a long ways ahead, which sorta defeats the purpose of this discussion.Austin Jackson is only 22, his power could come as he gets older.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
On Granderson what I'm pretty sure they thought they were getting was -
115 - 125 OPS+ hitter
20 - 30 HRs annually
15 - 25 SB annually (with good scusses rate)
above average defense in CF
some one who could hit either 2nd or 6th to 8th to fill out an already powerful lineup.
They haven't really gotten that yet then I don't think they were expecting teixeira to be around league average OPS+ this deep into the season either. We'll see what happens the rest of the way.
Baseball is life;
the rest is just details.
Haren was the one "quality" starter I was referring to, Jackson's been awful this year. His first-half in Detroit was a fluke as evidenced by his crash landing back down to Earth in the second-half.
It's pretty much impossible to get maximum value for prospects. Kennedy was coming off a pretty serious injury and was only getting a chance in the Majors if Hughes bombed or someone got injured. The opportunity for a trade showed itself and it was made. Guys like Montero are the exception, chances are if he's being traded, its for a guy like Halladay, thus, you're getting max value.I disagree. So if we can trade Montero for Putz (I wouldnt-just making a point I hope you understand) you wouldn't think about us possibly getting more for him? I would-you should want the maximum value back for a player in a trade instead of just accepting what they got.
Granderson's posted an .817 OPS the last ~28 days, Jackson is below .600 in the same period. The counting stats aren't there due to missing ~20 games and I don't think expect Granderson to post a .320 OBP the rest of the way.Granderson OPS+ 102, Jackson OPS+ 103. Jackson's OBP increase over Granderson is more important than Granderson's increase in SLG. I think many people would rather have 30 more points in OBP than SLG.
Well, right now Coke has been more effective than Robertson, Joba, Logan, Marte, and Park.I don't really care much for what Coke is doing in the AL Central, at the time of the trade (like I mentioned) he was a fringe reliever.
Coke ERA 3.18 WHIP 1.31 IP 28.1 HR 1
Robertson ERA 5.48 WHIP 1.78 IP 21.1 HR 3
Joba ERA 5.72 WHIP 1.41 IP 28.1 HR 1
Logan ERA 4.05 WHIP 1.58 IP 13.1 HR 1
Marte ERA 3.65 WHIP 1.38 IP 12.1 HR 1
Park ERA 5.30 WHIP 1.45 IP 18.2 HR 5
Doesn't look like a fringe reliever to me. Better ERA, WHIP, and HR/9 than all 5 guys. His career ERA is 3.58 and career WHIP is 1.08! He is not a fringe reliever.
(I put my responses in bold in case you couldn't figure it out)
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
Haren was the one "quality" starter I was referring to, Jackson's been awful this year. His first-half in Detroit was a fluke as evidenced by his crash landing back down to Earth in the second-half.
Jackson was decent in Tampa 2 years ago, and really good in Detroit. He obvioulsy has bombed in Arizona this year, but had value coming into the season.
It's pretty much impossible to get maximum value for prospects. Kennedy was coming off a pretty serious injury and was only getting a chance in the Majors if Hughes bombed or someone got injured. The opportunity for a trade showed itself and it was made. Guys like Montero are the exception, chances are if he's being traded, its for a guy like Halladay, thus, you're getting max value.
We obvioulsy disagree here. There was no rush to trade Kennedy-he still had options so we didn't have to trade him. Since we didn't have to trade him we should be getting close to full value for him. It really all comes down to Granderson-if his OPS is around .900, I can't complain about the trade. The trade would be worth it, even if Jackson is around .800. However, Granderson is in the ~.750 range and making the trade look bad.
Granderson's posted an .817 OPS the last ~28 days, Jackson is below .600 in the same period. The counting stats aren't there due to missing ~20 games and I don't think expect Granderson to post a .320 OBP the rest of the way.
I never mentioned the counting stats (total HR, total SB, etc.). He has played 4 full seasons and two of them were .335 and .327 OBP. It wouldn't be surprising if he was in the .320-.335 range again.
I don't really care much for what Coke is doing in the AL Central, at the time of the trade (like I mentioned) he was a fringe reliever.
Just because you call Coke a fringe reliever doesn't make it so.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
I'm not sure where you're going with this. I merely stated that Arizona had room in their rotation to accommodate Kennedy.
He's missed 20 games and hasn't hit his stride yet, yes, the numbers aren't supposed to look great.We obvioulsy disagree here. There was no rush to trade Kennedy-he still had options so we didn't have to trade him. Since we didn't have to trade him we should be getting close to full value for him. It really all comes down to Granderson-if his OPS is around .900, I can't complain about the trade. The trade would be worth it, even if Jackson is around .800. However, Granderson is in the ~.750 range and making the trade look bad.
Granderson's posted an .817 OPS the last ~28 days, Jackson is below .600 in the same period. The counting stats aren't there due to missing ~20 games and I don't think expect Granderson to post a .320 OBP the rest of the way.
That's fine, I think he'll be north of that.I never mentioned the counting stats (total HR, total SB, etc.). He has played 4 full seasons and two of them were .335 and .327 OBP. It wouldn't be surprising if he was in the .320-.335 range again.
Again, not sure what you're having trouble with here. I clearly stated Coke was a fringe reliever prior to the trade, and he was. Good for him for not serving up homers to every power hitting lefty he's faced.Just because you call Coke a fringe reliever doesn't make it so.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
If I keep calling Cano league average it doesn't make him league average. Coke isn't a fringe reliever-prior to the trade or after the trade. Its fine if you keep ignoring his statistics-so far in his career he has posted an ERA+ of 122. Doesn't sound fringe to me.
Prior to the trade he pitched 74.2 innings as a Yankee, and he allowed 74 baserunners. I don't see how that is considered a "fringe" reliever.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...cokeph01.shtml
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
Sure, if you lump together his numbers from '08, they look "better." But that was 14 innings worth of SSS. Over an extended period of work, he complied some mediocre numbers; ERA, ERA+, awful HR/9.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
ERA+ is not the best statistic by which to measure relievers. For instance, Brian Bruney had a better ERA+ for us last year than Coke did.
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
Why don't we take Granderson's best month last year out and see where he finishes? I'm using his career numbers which includes his best and worst. You can't jump grab his best 14 innings and throw them out and then analyze him.
Even if you do that, he allowed 64 baserunners in 60 innings last year. WHIP of 1.07. Still better than every reliever we had last year besides someone named Rivera or Hughes.
Either way, he is having a better current season than at least 5 current yankee relievers and has a career WHIP of 1.08. Pretty sure WHIP of 1.08 isn't considered fringe.
If WHIP of 1.08 is "fringe" how do you describe John Wettleland (WHIP 1.14)? Goose Gossage (WHIP 1.23)? Jeff Nelson (1.35)? Mike Stanton (1.35)? His career is still young, but his production to date can't be considered "fringe" by any means. (Just so you don't throw a fit, I don't think he is better than any of those 4 pitchers but his production so far can't be ignored)
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
One of the best measures of a reliever is how many baserunners they put on base, not how many that score. Coke was unlucky that he allowed 64 baserunners and 30 of them scored....I don't know what the league average is (baserunners allowed * percentage that score) but I bet that is pretty high.
For instance John Lackey has allowed 138 baserunners in 87.1 innings and he has been lucky only 44 of them scored. (WHIP 1.58) Thats below 33%, while Coke was at roughly 45%. When Dice-K had his "amazing" year he allowed 222 baserunners in 167.2 IP (WHIP 1.32) but only 54 scored. Thats below 25%. That is why people considered him lucky that season and why people consider Lackey to be pitching horribly even though his ERA is 4.53. Their WHIP in relation to their ERA isn't normal.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
i agree, to me getting rid of coke in the deal was addition by subtraction.
Evaluating this offseason move at this point has no point. SSS - and we're talking about the main peices being 2 young prospects in Jackson and IPK. These are players that will be around for a while or moved for other players. Really the only fair perspective so far is - was the deal a good one when it was made?
I think I'm about on par with the forum in terms of Jackson's outlook. I'm probably bigger on IPK than most around here. Even given that, I still think the trade was a good one and wouldn't undo it if given the opportunity. I think we will see more out of Granderson in the 2nd half and over the course of the next few years that will satisfy some of the concerns around here. As long as he starts mashing RHP and using his home park to his advantage it'll be all good.
Good lord was that AB vs Feliciano bad.
Looking more and more like a platoon player. Nice trade Cash.
Granderson stinks. He should never be allowed to bat against a lefty in a tight spot.
You guys are going overboard.
Feliciano is a really good lefty.
He won't play Sunday either. 0-12 vs Santana.
I've seen him look lost against some garbage lefty's too this year. Hendrickson down Baltimore rings a bell.
Cashman makes trades based on a player doing only one thing well and neglects the player's flaws. Granderson hits for power against right handers and really doesn't bring much else to the table.
If it makes you feel better to make excuses, then have at it. The entire league is well aware of his troubles with lefties. He's gonna see a steady diet of them all season long.
There is just so much wrong with this post, I don't even know where to start. So I won't.
I have bashed Granderson quite a bit the last couple of pages here and think the trade wasn't a good one, but some of Granderson's strong points need to be pointed out. His attributes include killing right-handed pitching, strong defense, speed, and baserunning. Yes, he is a disaster against lefties and should be a platoon player (I've already stated that) and any platoon player isn't worth 10 million a season (only 5.5 million this year, but Yankees on the hook for 20.25 the next two years) on top of the prospects we traded for him. Trade wasn't a good one.
OPS against lefties the last 3 years is .570......and so far this year it was .553 before the strikeout. I know its a small sample size for this year so far, but 3 3/8 seasons is more than a trend.
Hoping Rivera can pitch forever!
Fire Thomson now!!!
Yeah, he probably shouldn't ever have a bat in his hand when there is a LHP on the mound.
I can't blame Girardi for going to Granderson. Faliciano was not warming up at the time. Mets did everything in their power/time to get a lefty in there.
You think the word is out yet that Granderson is pathetic against LHP?
In fact, Sterger claims that, in one of the photos Favre allegedly sent her, he's masturbating — while wearing a pair of Crocs.
Most of his posts follow that pattern.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
Not crazy about Curtis' performance to date, but how do you platoon him when Chad Huffman is your righty fill-in? Or Kevin Russo before that? Just play him already so you have an idea what you have/need for the stretch.
"In baseball, you don't know nothin'." - Yogi Berra
I think we already know what we have. A solid player who plays a decent CF and can mash RHP at times, but is utterly useless against LHP, and really is a glorified platoon player.
ka-ching. especially w santana coming up sunday. maybe sit him then if you want to avoid lefty madness. but against takahashi ?? and for miLB callups ?? i didn't like that one either.
Right. He winds up sitting too much which probably isn't helping him with his day job against RHP's.
"In baseball, you don't know nothin'." - Yogi Berra
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