JDPNYY's Question of the day #253 - Monday 12/7/09

[JDPNYY]

Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):



What date in US History would rank as the third worst date of infamy?

[philleotardo]

Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):



What date in US History would rank as the third worst date of infamy?

I assume 12/7/41 and 9/11/01 are 1 and 2, therefore:


11/22/1963

[theDurk]

September 17, 1862: Battle of Antietam. 23000 casualties in one day--needless to say, all Americans killed by other Americans. There is a good case to make it number one, but I'll go with three for this exercise.

Personal Note: On Dec 7, 1941, my father, draft exempt as too old and father of two (my older siblings) went to town and volunteered for the Army over the violent objections of my mother. His brother, a Navy fighter pilot, was based at Pearl, but his carrier was out on maneuvers on Dec 7. The family had no news whatsoever until mid-January 1942.

[BxBomber44]

During a time of war there are so many to choose from, but putting my American bias aside, I would have to say we acknowledge both Hiroshima and Dresden... the amount of lives lost were catastrophic - each because of the politics and actions of the respective countries, though.

3 would be Dresden for me, not trying to be anti-American because I am far from it. Our president and military leaders were faced with impossible circumstances and a decision was made, but it's hard to ignore that day. It spanned over a few days, but we'll go with the initial day for the questions sake: Feb 13 1945

FWIW, I'm assuming 9/11/01 is number 2.

[JL25and3]

October 20, 2004.

[Trish]

October 20, 2004.

Close the thread now.

[Ignatowski]

April 20 1889-Hitler born

[fredgmuggs]

I'll say the Wall Street crash on October 29, 1929 because it's the symbolic beginning of the Great Depression.

(excellent choice of question on this anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day)

[4bronxbombers]

October 20, 2004.

[penguin4]

October 20, 2004.

My first thought, as well.

[fredgmuggs]

My first thought, as well.

When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.

[JL25and3]

When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.

Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.

[4bronxbombers]

Gee, thanks, muggs.

Yeah really

[fredgmuggs]

Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.

I figured you for a Dred Scott Supreme Court Decision guy.

Seriously, though, - if today was the anniversary of 9-11 would you have used the answer you gave?

[Trish]

When I saw the question I knew someone would give that answer ...but given truly catastrophic events this country has faced it seemed a bit arrogant to me to say or think that.

Oh brother.

[xxltaco]

4/19/95... oklahoma city.

[JL25and3]

I figured you for a Dred Scott Supreme Court Decision guy.

Seriously, though, - if today was the anniversary of 9-11 would you have used the answer you gave?

I don't know what I would have said. It's a semi-serious daily quiz on a Yankee message board, for crissake. Arrogant? Really? You don't think maybe there's a little role reversal there?

[Maynerd]

April 14, 1865.

I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.

[fredgmuggs]

I don't know what I would have said. It's a semi-serious daily quiz on a Yankee message board, for crissake. Arrogant? Really? You don't think maybe there's a little role reversal there?

Ok, I made my point clumsily but you know what I was saying. People don't view Pearl Harbor Day with the emotional impact as our older generation has.

People are solemn on the anniversary 9-11. On the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day TCM plays From Here to Eternity. That's about the extent of Pearl Harbor Day.

[MunsonNY15]

April 14, 1865.

I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.

You beat me to it Maynerd.

Heidi

[JL25and3]

Ok, I made my point clumsily but you know what I was saying. People don't view Pearl Harbor Day with the emotional impact as our older generation has.

People are solemn on the anniversary 9-11. On the anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day TCM plays From Here to Eternity. That's about the extent of Pearl Harbor Day.

And Easter is now about an enormous rabbit delivering painted eggs and jelly beans.

My dad served in the Pacific, and my mother's brother was killed in Lingayen Gulf, in the Philippines. I was there once, with my family, to scatter my grandmother's ashes where her son died. I understand about Pearl Harbor, muggs, really I do.

[pleasepassthesoup]

9/29/1985

the day i was born. the poor country's never recovered.

[4bronxbombers]

*slowly backs out of thread after making similar comment as John did about Oct 2004*

[Bozidar]

Monday 12/7/09 - JDPNYY's Question of the day (#253):



What date in US History would (you?) rank as the third worst date of infamy?

9/11/2001.

8/6/1945, and 8/9/1945 being 1 and 2.

[Bozidar]

October 20, 2004.

This was a personal low for me, ranking just being 9/11. It was made worse by being my Birthday..

But for the country, it's probably just in the top 20 somewhere.

[fredgmuggs]

And Easter is now about an enormous rabbit delivering painted eggs and jelly beans.

My dad served in the Pacific, and my mother's brother was killed in Lingayen Gulf, in the Philippines. I was there once, with my family, to scatter my grandmother's ashes where her son died. I understand about Pearl Harbor, muggs, really I do.

John, I'm not specifically targeting you, so please don't think that.... just how time changes the way people view things, in general. But I think you knew that.

My dad was also marine who fought in some the most awful conflicts in the south Pacific during WWII. He once said to me I gave up my soul fighting in that war and I never want any of my kids to ever have to do or see the things I did.

I know I've derailed the thread but this is a day whose significance I've never forgotten. And yeah 2004 sucked.

edit: John, I wanted to add (and apologize for not having said this earlier) your post about your grandmother's ashes being spread in the Philippines so she could be with her son was incredibly moving. Thank you for sharing that memory.

[allybear]

At the risk of getting smacked, I'm going with 10/9/1982 - my first wedding anniversary.

[johnnyyankee]

At the risk of getting smacked, I'm going with 10/9/1982 - my first wedding anniversary.

Consider yourself smacked. We are talking about "U.S." history, not "Ally" history.

[Ram Man]

8/6/1945, and 8/9/1945 being 1 and 2.

Couldn't disagree more.

[penguin4]

Gee, thanks, muggs. We wouldn't want anyone answering the QOTD with less than complete solemnity.

Yeah, really. Buzzkill.

You want a serious answer? How about May 18,1896? Look it up.

Wanna hint? It's a big part of why we now get off the third Monday in January.

[xxltaco]

This was a personal low for me, ranking just being 9/11. It was made worse by being my Birthday..

But for the country, it's probably just in the top 20 somewhere.

my wife's birthday is 9/11. as is my best friend's wedding anniversary. bummer indeed.

[Bozidar]

Couldn't disagree more.

For good or ill of the long term we killed over 120,000 people between those two days, mostly civilians. If we down own up to this part of our history, we can't own the good parts either.

i'm not looking to convince you, but that's how i see it.

[Stupid Flanders]

April 14, 1865.

I truly wonder what Lincoln might have accomplished had he been able to complete his second term.

Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?

Lincoln was the worst president in US history.

[Stupid Flanders]

On that note, April 27, 1861 was a terrible day. I'll put that 4th. Lincoln suspends habeas corpus, declares martial law, and sets up the first dictatorship in US history.

I'll put this third: February 3, 1913. 16th Amendment ratified, Congress has the power to tax income without the states' involvement, federal government begins massive power base building.

[Ram Man]

For good or ill of the long term we killed over 120,000 people between those two days, mostly civilians. If we down own up to this part of our history, we can't own the good parts either.

i'm not looking to convince you, but that's how i see it.

I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.

To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.

[Ram Man]

Lincoln was the worst president in US history.

That opinion certainly places you in the minority.

[penguin4]

Like set up more of a dictatorship than he already did?

Lincoln was the worst president in US history.

You remind me of this girl in an English class I took at Columbia. We were studying the Gettysburg Address and she bursts out, "Well, I don't see what was so great about it!" She seriously meant it, too. Gotta love those left-wing revisionists.

[JL25and3]

In a more serious vein - and having taken a few deep breaths - I think muggs's choice of Black Tuesday is a good one.

[Dave Visbeck]

October 20, 2004.

October 16, 2003.

[fredgmuggs]

In a more serious vein - and having taken a few deep breaths - I think muggs's choice of Black Tuesday is a good one.

I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)

[Bozidar]

I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.

To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.

Take 12/7/41 for an example then. Had they not attacked us, would the US have dragged it's feet even further before entering WWII if at all? Would millions of lives have been ultimately lost, not to mention the extinction of many minority races? Would Japan have completed it's conquest of the Pacific and exterminated many of what they considered to be the lesser oriental races?

12/7/41, and the result of us entering the World War more tha likely saved many more innocent lives than it took.

Sometimes bad things happen, and good things are a result of them. Our country united, our economy really took off, our science was furthered, and our ability to affect change throughout the globe increased by an order of magnitude.

Fact of the matter is that while Pearl Habor was a sneak attack, it was an act of war carried out by a military opponent we were suspect of, on a military target. Was it unprovoked? No. Was it unkind of them to attack before declaring war? Of course. But mostly we just got caught with our pants down, and the result of that attack is likely the reason we're the only (fading) superpower left.

[jlw1980]

On that note, April 27, 1861 was a terrible day. I'll put that 4th. Lincoln suspends habeas corpus, declares martial law, and sets up the first dictatorship in US history.

I agree with you on this (not sure about 4th but a truly horrible day).

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=69748

The COMMANDING GENERAL OF THE ARMY OF THE UNITED STATES

You are engaged in suppressing an insurrection against the laws of the United States. If at any point on or in the vicinity of any military, line which is now or which shall be used between the city of Philadelphia and the city of Washington you find resistance which renders it necessary to suspend the writ of habeas corpus for the public safety, you personally, or through the officer in command at the point where resistance occurs, are authorized to suspend that writ.

Given under my hand and the seal of the United States, at the city of Washington, this 27th day of April, 1861, and of the Independence of the United States the eighty-fifth.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
By the President of the United States:
WILLIAM H. SEWARD,
Secretary of State .

I don't understand how Executive Orders are remotely Constitutional. That one certainly was not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(United_States)#Basis_in_U.S._Constitution

U.S. Presidents have issued executive orders since 1789. Although there is no Constitutional provision or statute that explicitly permits executive orders, there is a vague grant of "executive power" given in Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution, and the statement "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" in Article II, Section 3. Most executive orders are orders issued by the President to US executive officers to help direct their operation[citation needed], the consequence of failing to comply being removal from office.

Just as disturbing is the PATRIOT Act.

[penguin4]

October 16, 2003.

GREAT day.

[jlw1980]

I look at it as a price that was paid (a heavy price no doubt) to end a brutal war that would have, by virtually all accounts, resulted in many, many more deaths had it not come to an end when it did.

To be sure, those dates are not a high point in American history in terms of something to be proud of, they certainly in my view, don't rank as high on the infamy scale as 9/11/01, 12/7/41, 11/22/63 or some of the others that have been mentioned.

This. An invasion of Japan probably would've cost many more lives, both Japanese and Allied. That said, I think the second bomb was wholly unnecessary and wrong. Also, I think it was in part a punishment of sorts for the horrific treatment of American POWs by the Japanese.

[JL25and3]

I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)

No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.

It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.

[JDPNYY]

I was being a putz earlier and I regret it. (not the black Tuesday post. All the other stuff)

I seem to recall...


ahhh, nevermind.

[JDPNYY]

No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.

It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.

I'm pretty sure JDPNYY is the nicest poster, when all is said and done...

[penguin4]

This. An invasion of Japan probably would've cost many more lives, both Japanese and Allied. That said, I think the second bomb was wholly unnecessary and wrong. Also, I think it was in part a punishment of sorts for the horrific treatment of American POWs by the Japanese.

Yes, unfortunately, that's the way I see it, as well. The bombs were kind of a "take your pick"-type thing. Either kill of lots of Japanese (enemy) civilians, or kill off lots of Allied soldiers and Japanese and drag the war on longer. Lives will be lost. Unfortunately, in war, there will be civilian casualties, and President Truman had a right to protect the lives in his own country. I understand they wanted to hit a city to prove a point of what these bombs were capable of, but I kind of wish they'd done it in a more remote area where some lives would be lost, but not whole industries, or an area populated by more soldiers and less civilians. I guess we didn't exactly know the effects of radiation poisoning in those days the way we do now.

And maybe the second bomb was a punishment for American POWs, but it doesn't exactly make up for how horrible we were to the Japanese-Americans. I think that was a more despicable chapter in our history than any nuclear warfare.

[allybear]

No biggie. What you consider being a putz would just be a little warm-up for a lot of us.

It's true, you might have put yourself out of the running for the coveted Allybear Award for all-around nicest poster. But you weren't going to beat out allybear, anyway, so it's OK.

Oh, I think Muggsy's nicer than me - remember I was in a snippy mood one day last week. And I think my starter marriage ranks up there with the suspension of constitutional liberties, depression, war, Red Sox victories, etc., which may not make me not-nice, but certainly puts me right up there on the self-absorption scale.

[jlw1980]

Yes, unfortunately, that's the way I see it, as well. The bombs were kind of a "take your pick"-type thing. Either kill of lots of Japanese (enemy) civilians, or kill off lots of Allied soldiers and Japanese and drag the war on longer. Lives will be lost. Unfortunately, in war, there will be civilian casualties, and President Truman had a right to protect the lives in his own country. I understand they wanted to hit a city to prove a point of what these bombs were capable of, but I kind of wish they'd done it in a more remote area where some lives would be lost, but not whole industries, or an area populated by more soldiers and less civilians. I guess we didn't exactly know the effects of radiation poisoning in those days the way we do now.

And maybe the second bomb WAS a punishment for American POWs, but it doesn't exactly make up for how horrible we were to the Japanese-Americans. I think that was a more despicable chapter in our history than any nuclear warfare.

The U.S. was horrid to Japanese-Americans. No question. A terrible chapter in our national history.

Of course you know of the Bataan Death March. Did you know that the Japanese dissected American POWs while still alive?

http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/uspow.htm

UKUOKA, Japan "I could never again wear a white smock," says Dr. Toshio Tono, dressed in a white running jacket at his hospital and recalling events of 50 years ago. "It's because the prisoners thought that we were doctors, since they could see the white smocks, that they didn't struggle. They never dreamed they would be dissected."

The prisoners were eight American airmen, knocked out of the sky over southern Japan during the waning months of World War U, and then torn apart organ by organ while they were still alive.

That's shockingly Mengele-esque.

Another beyond disturbing episode:

American Prisoners of War: Massacre at Palawan
http://www.historynet.com/american-p...at-palawan.htm

Shocking that they got off so easy for these horrendous war crimes.