Damon
Matsui
If the Yankees want to re-sign one of them, which one do you prefer? Given that their asking price should be similar.
WAR
Damon 3.0
Matsui 2.4
WARP1
Damon 4.0
Matsui 2.1
EQA
Damon .290
Matsui .291
OPS+
Damon 126
Matsui 131
vs LHP (2007-2009)
Damon .268/.342/.391 in 473AB
Matsui .288/.361/.489 in 403AB
Should probably be merged with this:
http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=121328
"Whether they're offended or not, that's the way it is."
I add a poll for this. It seems that both of them have their supporters. Matsui is a better hitter and he can hit LHP, while Damon can play LF and is more durable.Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14
The one thing I do not like about Damon was he became a non factor after August. No HRs and very few RBIs in September. What if next season being a year older means his slump starts earlier?
"Can play LF" and "more durable" being relative terms.
I think Matsui's asking price, at least in terms of years, will probably be lower, and I'm also a bit afraid of Damon having some severe decreases in production coming off this year (he certainly can't be expected to replicate this season). Plus, he downright cannot play defense anymore.
If Matsui goes for a 1 year deal (maybe with a team option for a 2nd year), I'd sign him and then pick up Cameron. That said, if Damon is willing to do a 1 year deal with an option for a 2nd, shoot for it.
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Damon...
I agree with you about the LF part. But the durability is not relative in this case. He is not young anymore but he is one of the most durable player in the league. He played more than 140 games every year.
Certainly true, but he seems like an injury waiting to happen should he keep playing the field.
But I'd certainly willing to make a 1 year commitment to him (which is what a 1-year deal plus an option is), especially if we can get him to DH more often.
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both....
nuff said
but if honestly we only could keep one, it would have to be Damon he has more value being able to play the field
The real reason why the Yankees keep winning is cause the other team can't stop staring at the damn pinstripes
Damon. Because he can play the field.
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Yeah - I'd really like to see both of them re-signed. It's difficult to overlook the way Matsui comes off the bench cold and delivers so many times. I expect to see Posada get more rest this year, which unfortunately means less time for Matsui. Damon's arm is a liability, but you can still put him in the OF.
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Matsui is better choice IMO (I think we should get both) for a couple reasons.
1. He's a much better hitter. Damon couldn't be expected to duplicate what amounts to a career year.
2. Chances are more ABs will be available at DH than people believe. Don't forget we got pretty lucky with injuries in 2009. Can't expect that in 2010.
3. Matsui will most likely be cheaper, especially if you consider his revenue generation powers as a Japanese icon.
4. The way Damon is going, I am not even sure he qualifies as a fielder anymore.
I think Damon had a career year, and there is no way he will match it. Matsui last year was about how he's been for his career.
If Cashman find a LF who can field and hit (Holliday?), no doubt I pick Matsui who is a better hitter.
People keep saying to pick Damon, and then go on to say he would DH... if thats the case, why not just pick the better DH (Matsui) lol.
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Matsui, shorter deal plus Yanks can get draft picks for Damon.
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I hate the positional adjustment on WAR that goes against DHs. it makes no sense. how does a DH hitting as a DH hurt the team? it's retarded. it should measure production absolutely. I'm not a fan of the other positional adjustments either.
"First batter up well here's the pitch: it's a curve. Second batter up because the first got served"
That's because the chances of Matsui sticking through an entire season are much less than that of Damon's. And that Damon could play the field if need be, like in interleague and the world series. Matsui will never play the field again.
It's because the DH is supposed to be the best hitter on the team. The ability it takes to be a DH is the least amount of ability it takes to play any position, thus DH's are inherently the least scarce and have the worst batting adjustment.
For example, any position player can DH, but few can play shortstop well.
SO: If A and B have identical offensive lines, but A plays short and B DH's,
A's production is more valuable because it's harder to find a shortstop that can hit than a DH.
The DH is usually a slugger who can not play the field, not the best hitter on a team.
Hughes Rules: Pleading the Fifth
If we had a #2 hitter in-house this wouldn't be much of an discussion, as Damon is atrocious in the field and Matsui would likely take a one-year deal with an option. But, we don't, so, absent a deal, Damon has the edge.
"In baseball, you don't know nothin'." - Yogi Berra
yeah, yeah, I know all that. But the fact that he plays DH doesn't take away from his value. It's not like his very sitting on the bench while the rest of the team plays hurts the team, so why would his positive offensive production be docked? I realize that the adjustment is there so as to allow for cross-positional comparison. But, if you wanna look @ a DH's production singularly, it seems pointless to me to add the adjustment. If we just wanna look @ Damon's offense vs Matsui's offense, looking @ WAR is retarded.
Beyond that, the adjustments seem pretty arbitrary to me (I know they're not). I think we're better off with the pure offensive numbers + fielding, and then we can compare cross-positionally ourselves. To try to say, "this SS's weaker offensive production is more or less equivalent to this 1B's stronger offensive production" is just wrongheaded. It's not. Production is absolute.
*edited a few times
"First batter up well here's the pitch: it's a curve. Second batter up because the first got served"
Damon because he can play the field if need be and has speed.
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I'm in your thread, stealing RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees' identity.
Why would you look at WAR for only offensive contributions? Of course that's stupid, that's not what the stat is for.
And WAR does not measure production. It measures value. I hope you understand the difference.
Ok, so we agree on the first point.
Concerning the second... if it measures value, why is its unit of measurement in "wins" and not something more abstract? Something like "value points" or something. Maybe I misunderstand the way the term "win" is used for WAR and perhaps that is the source of my beef. A win (in real life) is the summation of actual productive offensive play and actual preventative pitching and defensive play. WAR doesn't assess a player's affect on wins/losses but rather abstract value (separate from in-game context and the supposed "luck" of batting in a certain place in batting order, in certain situations, etc.).
A stat that assessed real life offensive production and defensive play (even if you didn't bother with trying to assess hitting with RISP and stuff like that) would be truer to how a player actually affects a game than a stat that docks "value" from a player for playing a position where he hits for the pitcher.
"First batter up well here's the pitch: it's a curve. Second batter up because the first got served"
Yes, WAR is a context independent stat, and you're probably correct, a context inclusive stat would probably be more indicative a players' true value.
WAR still does a pretty good job of estimating value though.
One or the other, it has to be Damon. Matsui has been my favorite Yankee but it's time.
It'll be interesting to see how the Yankees replace the offense if they lose both guys.
updating...
Maybe both but voted damon as he plugs more holes incl key #2 slot DH easier to fill and we also jave some roster overflow there incl jorge and damon to rest legs. That said we're better w hideki so maybe both if price is right.
Matsui. He's a better run producer. Simple as that.
No, no it's not. There are a many more factors than who you consider the "better run producer."
uh damon is definitely the better run producer.
Matsui is better hit and run producer. However Damon wins in every other category, thus making him a superior player.
Really?
Plays the game the wrong way.
...
no damon is the better hit and run producer.
matsui has nothing that damon doesn't.
matsui hits homers, yes, so does damon.
after that, damon wins in pretty much all categories.
No, Matsui is better hit and run producer. Anything Damon can do Matsui can do better.
Calmer than you are.
No, not at all.
I beg you to go look at their stats and base an argument off of that instead of using your memory.
But you are right about Damon winning in all non-hitting categories...
No, Damon is better.
Calmer than you are.
Damon- .282BA, .365OBP, .489SLG, .854OPS, 24HR, 82RBI
Matsui-.274BA, .367OBP, .509SLG, .876OPS, 28HR, 90RBI
I think Damon's injury in WS game 6 gave the Yanks something to think about.
Do you really want either one for more than one year.
with Posada's turn at full time dh coming very soon. with $ eventually have to be spent on Jeter.
I wouldn't sign either one for more than one year- with a club option for a second year with Damon.
until we know what is happening with other positions and players, i can't answer this poll.
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No one is going to be throwing money at those guys. They should be able to easily sign both at a reasonably painless level. No reason to make changes when they don't have to. Offer Damon two years and Matsui one. They're both big time players. I'd stick with them until they show that they can no longer produce.
No two years on Damon....1 and a team option at most. Damon can get 2 years and maybe 3 from a desperate teamj; I think there is a very good chance he's gone.
Hughes Rules: Pleading the Fifth
Damon is a durable LF who is the best option after Holliday and Bay in the market. And he is cheaper than both of them. Matsui is the best DH in this year market. I'm sure some teams will throw money to them, especially Damon.
This is very doubtful. The market for aging corner outfielders/DH that are injury risks is very poor. It collapsed last year; who is to say it won't happen again this year?
But Damon can't throw and he's a lot older than Bay and Holliday - a totally different situation. Vlad Guerrero is also be a free agent - not exactly a DH slouch - and there are plenty of DH-types on the market.
As Bill Clinton said: "It's the economy, stupid."
Both are incredibly streaky players. Both have had injuries. While some may consider Damon more durable, his constant calf issues and coming to spring training out of shape, makes me weary of him. He "can" play the field, but it doesn't mean he should. I would go with Matsui. He's also streaky and obviously has the knees issue, but you know you what you are going to get.
Said this so many times but I'll say it again.
Matsui's reputation for streakiness is undeserved. He just looks so bad when he's bad people remember those stretches.
No, you don't. Matsui could produce next year like he did this year; or he could barely play the entire year because of knee/other issues. You most certainly don't know which of those two you're going to get. Damon is a much better bet to at least play 135 games.
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