Stop this Madness

[ajra21]

i've posted this elsewhere but i thought it was perfect for the Inside the Lines II board.

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/

Things that drive me crazy:

The Joba debate: Why does still continue in some quarters? He had a 2.76 ERA in 12 starts last season. He struck out 74 batters in 60 innings. He’s a really, really good starter and he’s 23. Do the math: It’s better to have a great pitcher throw 200 innings instead of 70.

The idea that Joba should go back to the bullpen because the Yankees signed CC Sabathia and A.J. Burnett is inane. The best, most efficient way to win baseball games is to have as many games as possible started by good pitchers. The eighth inning is not as important as innings one through six.

Greed: Those of you who insist the Yankees should sign Manny Ramirez need to get a grip. The offense is just fine. The Yankees need young, versatile, cost-effective position players who can catch the ball and will buy into Joe Girardi’s vision. Not old, expensive, one-dimensional selfish DH types. The idea should be to pay players for what they will do for you, not for what they did for their former team.

Over-thinking: People have told me Orlando Hudson could play center. Robinson Cano should play left. Derek Jeter can play center. Use Hideki Matsui at first base. This is a major league baseball team, not the second game of a American Legion doubleheader. Good teams don’t experiment like that unless there is no other choice. The Yankees always have another choice.

Hating on young players: To read some comments on the blog, people think Cano, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy has bad seasons on purpose. Mickey Mantle hit .267 in his first 341 ABs and struck out 74 times. Tom Glavine was 9-21, 4.76 in the first two seasons. How about waiting a bit before deciding somebody isn’t any good?

Suspending reality: A rumor flew around this week that the Yankees might have interest in Erik Bedard. Never mind that he has a bad shoulder, a bad hip and a bad personality. He’s a perfect No. 5 starter! At some point, some things don’t make sense no matter how much you try.

and finally …

Leave Hideki Matsui alone: Now that the Yankees have an extra player, some folks want Hideki shipped out of town for most anything. Lest you forget, Godzilla has a .371 career OBP and has driven in 103+ plus runs every year he was healthy. He’s also 34, not 44. When A-Rod had his monster 2007, you know who hit behind him most days? Matsui, that’s who.

peter abraham isn't perfect but this might be the best thing i've ever read on his blog.

[yanksphan]

Aside from point 1, I disagree with all of Pete's points.

You do whatever it takes within the team's powers to put the best possible team on the field. If that means trading Hideki, signing Manny, or shifting players around, so be it.

I'm not sure about the 'hating on young players' point - I'd think most fans have shown impatience when it comes to young players at one time or another. Part of being a fan.

Pete's points are all vacuum based, and he conveniently doesn't address any of the viable supporting arguments that people post in his comment section - he just attacks the general point.

He once again, takes the easy road of journalism. Remember when we weren't getting Tex?

[The Comic Book Guy]

I don't want Manny. That said, the offense is not "just fine".

If just a few things go wrong, the lineup becomes very average.

[Rocketbooster]

I don't want Manny. That said, the offense is not "just fine".

If just a few things go wrong, the lineup becomes very average.

You could say that about any team.

So you aren't satisfied with the lineup? If so, then the Yankees just wasted a truckload of $$$$ on Texeira......

[yankeeman61]

Pete makes some good points, but I have a few contentions.

The Joba debate is still open for me because he injured his arm before he hit 100 IP last year. Should he be a starter? Long term, yes. But for this season at least I am concerned as to whether or not he will hold up over the course of a full ML season, even with innings limitations. The Yankees are going to be challenged with this situation IMO. None of us want to see Mark Prior II or Kerry Wood II with Joba.

Greed: Yeah it would be excessive to add Manny after signing Tex, but man how could you not think about having a middle of the order with Tex, ARod and Manny? How do you pitch around that? At this point Manny's suitors have shrunk and if the Yanks could get him for a 2-year deal it might be worth the risk and make no mistake it IS a risk with Manny and his baggage. But that guy can rake like few have in the history of the game. I think I'd rather have his bat in he lineup over Brett Gardner. All this said, I don't think the Yanks will sign him.

Over thinking: Totally agree with this point. Some of the suggestions I've seen from fans are flat out absurd.

Hating on young players: Yeah, he has a point and "hate" seems to be the appropriate term in some cases.

Suspending Reality: This is a case of the grass being greener in someone else's yard and based on seeing "some folks" suggesting everything under the sun he is right.

Matsui: He's not going anywhere. He's coming off another knee surgery and if he can stay healthy he can still be very good.

[Matsui55]

Aside from point 1, I disagree with all of Pete's points.

You do whatever it takes within the team's powers to put the best possible team on the field. If that means trading Hideki, signing Manny, or shifting players around, so be it.

I'm not sure about the 'hating on young players' point - I'd think most fans have shown impatience when it comes to young players at one time or another. Part of being a fan.

Pete's points are all vacuum based, and he conveniently doesn't address any of the viable supporting arguments that people post in his comment section - he just attacks the general point.

He once again, takes the easy road of journalism. Remember when we weren't getting Tex?

Pete should have been even more direct and blunt on Matsui (and included Damon, Nady and Swisher in the point).

Posters here who think Matsui and Damon are tradeable just don't understand what has happened this winter. They are as untradeable as ARod right now.

Realistically, if ANY club wants a corner OF right now, they can sign Burrell, Abreu (or even Manny) or any other number of GOOD corner OF for half of what Matusi and Damon are making- and likely on a one-year deal as well.

In short, the other clubs already know this- they won't make a trade for Matsui or Damon because they would pay double what they would pay a FA corner OF AND have to pay more in trading prospects or players. Like it or not, the Yanks are stuck with Matsui and Damon for 2009.

Furthermore, even though they earn MUCH less, Swisher and maybe Nady are just as unmoveable. Which would you rather have on a one-year deal- Nady at about $6M or Burrell for about $8M? Most, if not all, will choose Burrell. Would you take Swisher at $5.75M or Abreu at $8M? Every team will chose Abreu.

Forget the pipe dreams about trading our OFs- for 2009, the Yanks have to bite the bullet on Damon, Matsui and Nady. The good news is that they will all be gone in 2010, allowing the Yanks to pursue Holliday with no hinderance.

[rajah]

Aside from point 1, I disagree with all of Pete's points.

You do whatever it takes within the team's powers to put the best possible team on the field. If that means trading Hideki, signing Manny, or shifting players around, so be it.

Who is "you"? Some kid playing fantasy baseball, not worrying about making as much money as possible or the interaction of personalities of real human beings?

If I owned the Yankees, I would do whatever it takes to maximize my profits. That does not mean maximizing my payroll to put the best team possible on the field. This winter I figure I have done as much as I need to to get fannies in the seats and the team in the playoffs. If I am wrong, I can spend more during the season.

[bigjf]

Pete's points are all vacuum based, and he conveniently doesn't address any of the viable supporting arguments that people post in his comment section - he just attacks the general point.

He once again, takes the easy road of journalism. Remember when we weren't getting Tex?

Pete's eating habits are vacuum based. Sorry, I felt the need to get that off my chest.

I like Pete's blog. He does a good job of covering the Yanks. But I don't like it when he needs to post his opinion, especially in instances like this where he attacks others' opinions. He comes off a lot like Francesa when he does that.

All told, I do agree with his points on Joba (only a dolt wouldn't), young players, and perhaps even the lineup and Matsui at this point (he was dead wrong on Tex, but so were a lot of us), but this idea that a team shouldn't bother having a player change positions to better fit his and the team's needs is just stupid.

I don't think Matsui's knees could tolerate 1st base any better than LF. He's a DH at this point, but if the Yanks never explored changing his position, he'd be a CF still. A-Rod wouldn't be our 3rd baseman. The Cubs wouldn't have Soriano in LF. If the Yanks ever thought that Orlando Hudson could bat .300 and play CF, it would behoove them to sign him in hopes of filling a need on the cheap. That is actually a rational argument. Players change positions, Pete. It's a great way to extend and/or resurrect one's career. Miguel Cairo might be better defensively at 1B than Matsui, but I'd stick Matsui there if I had to (assuming he's healthy) to keep his superior bat in the lineup. It's nice to have a good glove like Teixeira in there all game, but not every player is like that. That's why managers use defensive replacements towards the end of a game to preserve a lead. Completely rational here. It's not like anyone is saying that Posada should go back to playing 2B...

Erik Bedard might not be a good fit, but there's no reason to bash that idea. If you can get him at a steal, what's so wrong with taking him on as a reclamation project? You're taking on a young lefty with the idea of having him as 4th starter, meanwhile he has the upside to be a #2 or better. Again, I'm not advocating Bedard, but I'm saying it's not some idea that should just be laughed at and shrugged off the way Pete is doing. Ask the Cardinals what they think of reclamation projects...Ask Josh Hamilton what being a reclamation project is all about.

[ArodEra]

Pete's eating habits are vacuum based.

This is the only thing in the entire thread that we can say with 100% certainty.

[TheYankee]

Aside from point 1, I disagree with all of Pete's points.

You do whatever it takes within the team's powers to put the best possible team on the field. If that means trading Hideki, signing Manny, or shifting players around, so be it.

I'm not sure about the 'hating on young players' point - I'd think most fans have shown impatience when it comes to young players at one time or another. Part of being a fan.

Pete's points are all vacuum based, and he conveniently doesn't address any of the viable supporting arguments that people post in his comment section - he just attacks the general point.

He once again, takes the easy road of journalism. Remember when we weren't getting Tex?

Huh? You mention trading Hideki, shifting players around, etc, but fail to explain how any of that would make the team better.

[yanksphan]

Huh? You mention trading Hideki, shifting players around, etc, but fail to explain how any of that would make the team better.

My point wasn't the actual content of the scenarios. It was the fact that Pete consistently takes an argument in a vacuum and runs with it.

If I suggested - we should put together a package for Grady Sizemore that includes Phil Hughes - Pete would most likely bash me for not giving the kids a chance. Completely ignoring the plus outcome for the Yankees in that scenario.

(yes I understand there's no chance of that happening, it was an example).

[TheYankee]

My point wasn't the actual content of the scenarios. It was the fact that Pete consistently takes an argument in a vacuum and runs with it.

Oh, I see. In that case, I agree.

[nnysiny]

its as if Pete is directly addressing the whiners on this forum. its a rare occasion, but hes hitting it right on the head

[montrealer]

its as if Pete is directly addressing the whiners on this forum. its a rare occasion, but hes hitting it right on the head

Think he was......

[PirateChief]

YES! I will finally agree with PAbe. I don't know where the nest of Joba Bullpen people is but can someone please tell me so that I can call the exterminator. They've infected MLB network.

[NYYRules#1]

I'm with him 100% on the Joba, over-thinking, suspending reality, and young players points.

However, I don't agree that the offense is just fine - as in needing no improvements - or that we shouldn't be greedy. Likewise, Matsui is a question mark - he's still a potent hitter when healthy, but the question is how long is he going to be healthy for. I don't think we should trade him for just anything, but I wouldn't completely take trading him off the table either.

[MassNYYfan]

Every thread I open today has this same blog message posted in it.

Stop the madness, indeed!

[Zimmers' Helmet]

i've posted this elsewhere but i thought it was perfect for the Inside the Lines II board.

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/



peter abraham isn't perfect but this might be the best thing i've ever read on his blog.

Awesome post.
Thank you for putting this up. For once, Abraham nailed it right on the head. I agree 100% with everything he says here.

[montrealer]

i've posted this elsewhere but i thought it was perfect for the Inside the Lines II board.

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/



peter abraham isn't perfect but this might be the best thing i've ever read on his blog.

Good reading...........thanks Alex

[ajra21]

i just can't disagree with any of it. people may say the offense isn't good enough but the vast, vast, vast majority of teams would love to have this lineup. my biggest concern is that we're not gonna have enough innings from our rotation unless we sign andy (or an equivalent).

[yankeeman61]

i just can't disagree with any of it. people may say the offense isn't good enough but the vast, vast, vast majority of teams would love to have this lineup. my biggest concern is that we're not gonna have enough innings from our rotation unless we sign andy (or an equivalent).

Signing Tex was huge for this lineup and if you look at the potential on paper, it could be a great lineup. On the other hand there seems to be some lingering question marks.

Damon: Not a huge concern, but you have to wonder if his legs will hold up especially if he ends up having to play CF more than expected, depending on the Melky/Gardner tandem.

Jeter: I expect him to be Jeterian. It's tough to expect another MVP-type season, but I believe he will be around his career norms.

ARod: This is an odd-numbered year, isn't it? If Tex hits behind him he could have another monster year like '07. He might anyway even if he stays at cleanup.

Tex: It's going to be important for him to at least get off to a decent start. Things could get tough if he's ice cold until mid-May or so. Hopefully the NY adjustment period doesn't apply to him. He is historically better in the 2nd half.

Posada: Huge question mark. I'm sure he is working his tail off to get back but he had a serious injury that could get aggravated by doing too much. Jorge is a gamer and he might choose to tough it out if he's not feeling good. Remember that shoulder affected his hitting last year, too.

Matsui: Another question mark. This guy was so durable up until a couple of years ago, but he's now had knee surgeries. We know what he can do when healthy, but will he stay that way? He shouldn't be in the OF at all this year.

Nady: Career season in '08. I like him a lot, but the big question is will he return to his previous level or is he about to produce at peak level for the next few years? Don't know, which makes his offense a question mark.

Cano: This is a big wait and see. This is also a crossroad year for him, IMO. Will he become the player most feel he should be or is he going to revert back to bad habits and underachieve like last year? We better have seen the last of his mental lapses and hopefully his new batting stance will translate into better vision and more patience long term. He could be great if he could put it all together, but until I see it happening he's a question mark.

Swisher: Cashman bought low and hopefully it pays off, but he is coming off his worst season. Hopefully he gets enough PT, which is my concern at this point.

Melky/Gardner: Very low expectations between these two. Since the Yankees were trying to get a 36-year old CF, I'd say their expectations are low, too. Hopefully one of them hits enough to where Damon doesn't have to slide over like last year.

Do they have enough offense? Maybe. The potential is there. As it stands, I'd say 1-4 will be very solid and reliable. After that, who knows?

[ChinMusic]

I thought this was going to be an aricept comercial.

[rajah]

I agree with Abraham, but not with Matsui55's assertion that Nady and Swisher cannot be traded. Not every team will sign Manny, Dunn, Abreu or Burrell. When the dust settles in spring training, there is likely to be a market for Nady in particular. The Yankees will then know about Posada's shoulder and Matusi's knees and will have another look at Gardner and Melky. They will know what they might need and will have options to trade Nady or perhaps Swisher. I predict it will happen, but not until March.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

I agree with Abraham, but not with Matsui55's assertion that Nady and Swisher cannot be traded. Not every team will sign Manny, Dunn, Abreu or Burrell. When the dust settles in spring training, there is likely to be a market for Nady in particular. The Yankees will then know about Posada's shoulder and Matusi's knees and will have another look at Gardner and Melky. They will know what they might need and will have options to trade Nady or perhaps Swisher. I predict it will happen, but not until March.

I completely agree with this. Nady and Swisher are very tradable considering their age and salary.

Matsui is a different story based on his $13 million salary along with the fact that his knees have rendered him useless in the OF.

[Matsui55]

I completely agree with this. Nady and Swisher are very tradable considering their age and salary.

Matsui is a different story based on his $13 million salary along with the fact that his knees have rendered him useless in the OF.

Look folks, MLB is somewhat like the real world too.

The Yankees are like the Rockefellers- they will get whatever they want, regardless of the economy- they might not buy the beach resort in Bali this year, but they'll go to the French Riveria instead. However, those of us on a budget are not going to go for the extras this year. Stick with what you have and hope that next year is better.

Quite simply, most teams have folded up the tents and are done shopping for the winter. A few teams like the Rays and the Angels are willing to spend some- but they have FAs in mind- not trades. Even the Dodgers are pinching pennies (see the Jones restructure and not re-signing their own FAs).

If you are so convinced there is a market for Nady and Swisher, point out the teams that can take them on? The Royals MIGHT be willing to take Nady, but only if the Yanks take back a Crisp contract. See anyone else where the Yanks don't have to take back a bad contract?

[NYYDragoon]

I dislike Pete, but I have to agree with him here. Then again, I don't like how he's talking down on everyone who disagrees with him, but whatever.

[hardrain]

I dislike Pete, but I have to agree with him here. Then again, I don't like how he's talking down on everyone who disagrees with him, but whatever.

That's exactly what the guy does...sure he is right sometimes, who isn't?
But Abe does not tolerate anyone disagreeing with him, it is ONE of the reasons I do not visit his blog.

[montrealer]

That's exactly what the guy does...sure he is right sometimes, who isn't?
But Abe does not tolerate anyone disagreeing with him, it is ONE of the reasons I do not visit his blog.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes........

[AJW]

I dislike Pete, but I have to agree with him here. Then again, I don't like how he's talking down on everyone who disagrees with him, but whatever.

Tell me about it. I posted a comment in the section after Tex was signed and basically said "Hey Pete I thought the Yanks were not getting Tex?" He deleted my post. What a wuss.

[ajra21]

*facepalm*

[montrealer]

*facepalm*

Double face palm.....

[ajra21]

Double face palm.....

yep, i've used this a lot lately.

[YankeePride1967]

Come on Cash, sign Manny, Pujols, Papelbon, Hanley Ramirez, Johan Santana and Vlad, don't be cheap Cash, get it done!

[R.V.47]

Pete needs to get off his high horse. Other than the Joba thing and the Orlando Hudson in center idea 2 things that make no sense to anybody who watches the yankees, all of the other points are debatable and part of what being a fan is all about.

If Pete should be angry at anybody it should be himself, he is supposedly one of the closest beat writers to the yankees and yet he had zero information or even rumors pertaining to any of the yankee signings this year. He did a terrible job this offseason and was really overshadowed by guys like Heyman who dont even work full time covering the yankees.

[yanksphan]

Pete needs to get off his high horse. Other than the Joba thing and the Orlando Hudson in center idea 2 things that make no sense to anybody who watches the yankees, all of the other points are debatable and part of what being a fan is all about.

Yup..

[ajra21]

Come on Cash, sign Manny, Pujols, Papelbon, Hanley Ramirez, Johan Santana and Vlad, don't be cheap Cash, get it done!

love it.

[Hibachi]

Pete just needs to stop. He ridiculed every fan who suggested that the Yankees should sign CC, AJ, and Teixeira. He refused to own up to it once the Yankees signed Teixeira. He should just take his vacation and get back to blogging in Spring Training.

[surge511]

I agree with what Pete is saying. He brings up many issues that really shouldn't be issues, and every one of them is an example of how us Yankee fans sometimes need to collectively chill.

[Evil Homer1120]

People need to relax. I don't like or agree with everything he writes but he had some very valid points. NOBODY thought that the yankees were going to get Teix after signing both pitchers, other than maybe max kellerman & sweeny murti but they are both lunatics so they don't count. And the lineup is just fine. Every team has question marks and if people get hurt they will be in trouble. Even the red sox, what if lowell doesn't bounce back. Or ortiz has been exposed without manny. Elsbury wasn't the godsend everyone in new england thought he was. I'm not going to go thru their entire roster but you get the idea.

[yanksphan]

NOBODY thought that the yankees were going to get Teix after signing both pitchers,

Not true at all. I did (check the Swisher thread), so did many posters here. So did many media outlets - they'd report "Red Sox, Orioles, Nats and Angels are all in it, and you can never count the Yankees out"

Pete was actually one of the few media people stating the Yanks had maxed out on their cash.

[Rocketbooster]

Not true at all. I did (check the Swisher thread), so did many posters here. So did many media outlets - they'd report "Red Sox, Orioles, Nats and Angels are all in it, and you can never count the Yankees out"

Pete was actually one of the few media people stating the Yanks had maxed out on their cash.

You really believe the "You can never count the Yankees out" nonsense? This is practically boilerplate language that mediots use because keeping the Yankees involved in this stuff keeps interest up and sells papers. No media outlets seriously thought the Yankees were involved with Texeira.

[yanksphan]

You really believe the "You can never count the Yankees out" nonsense? This is practically boilerplate language that mediots use because keeping the Yankees involved in this stuff keeps interest up and sells papers. No media outlets seriously thought the Yankees were involved with Texeira.

Uh, ok then...

[Rocketbooster]

Uh, ok then...

good comeback.........

[ajra21]

ok, so here's the other side of the argument. usually i find the bats blog more in tune with me but not today.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...e-joba-debate/

Last off-season, readers of this blog and Yankee fans everywhere debated the fate of Joba Chamberlain, the dominant rookie reliever who helped the Yankees sneak into the playoffs in 2007. Despite his game-shortening ability as Mariano Rivera’s setup man, Chamberlain was converted to a starter for part of the 2008 season before tendinitis in his throwing shoulder sent him to the disabled list and eventually back to the bullpen.

Joba Chamberlain was effective as both a starter and a reliever last season. (Barton Silverman/The New York Times)Now with a revamped rotation for the 2009 season, a case can be made for keeping Chamberlain in the setup role. The Yankees simply do not need Chamberlain in the rotation the way they did last season.

Rather than rehash last year’s points, let’s look at the current situation. The strength of this argument depends heavily on whether or not the Yankees and Andy Pettitte come to an agreement. Pettitte has yet to accept the Yankees’ standing offer of one-year, $10 million to anchor the bottom of the rotation. Speculation is that the Yankees are willing to let ex-savior Phil Hughes play the part of fifth-starter if Pettitte refuses.

Should Pettitte return, is there any reason to believe (other than injuries) that the Yankees cannot survive with a rotation of C.C. Sabathia, Chien-Ming Wang, A.J. Burnett, Pettitte and Hughes?

Chamberlain in the bullpen would most likely make each starting pitcher better by shortening his starts. Fans concerned about Sabathia burning out in September or Burnett breaking down over the long haul could rest a little easier. A Chamberlain bridge would also make life easier for Rivera, who turned 39 in November and may not be able to crank out a two-inning save with as much ease as in the past.

In addition to keeping others healthy, Chamberlain could be healthier by remaining a reliever. There’s no questioning his effectiveness as a starter. His numbers as a starter last season (2.75 ERA and 10.3 K/9) were almost identical to his stats as a reliever (2.31 ERA and 11.1 K/9). But his shoulder injury came about as a starter, and fewer innings could only help him keep his shoulder strong.

A popular argument for having Chamberlain start is that you should not waste a player with such ability as a reliever because the more innings he can pitch the better. Wouldn’t you rather have 230 innings of Chamberlain rather than 90?

The problem with that argument is that you can say the same thing about Boston’s Jonathan Papelbon or a number of other great relievers. Are the Red Sox wasting Papelbon’s talent by limiting his innings and not converting him back to a starter?

If the Yankees used Chamberlain to shorten games to six innings, is that really a waste of talent? It sounds more like an incredible advantage to me.

personally, nothing has changed. you have to give him the chance to prove himself in the rotation. our rotation may have improved but it would be even better if joba is a success there too. i believe joba will eventually become a starter who you can get 30 starts out of and we'll need it cos AJ is unlikely to ever be that.

if joba continues to have serious arm problems when starting, then (as we all probably believe) move him to the 'pen.

[Yankee Fan in Boston]

ok, so here's the other side of the argument. usually i find the bats blog more in tune with me but not today.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...e-joba-debate/



personally, nothing has changed. you have to give him the chance to prove himself in the rotation. our rotation may have improved but it would be even better if joba is a success there too. i believe joba will eventually become a starter who you can get 30 starts out of and we'll need it cos AJ is unlikely to ever be that.

if joba continues to have serious arm problems when starting, then (as we all probably believe) move him to the 'pen.

I agree with you. Besides, if we ever expect Joba to be a full-time starter, the team is going to have to bite the bullet and spend a couple years getting his innings up. The Papelbon comparison is also a bit unfair, since Papelbon didn't have the success Joba did as a starter. Perhaps he would long-term, but it's not a certainty

[ajra21]

I agree with you. Besides, if we ever expect Joba to be a full-time starter, the team is going to have to bite the bullet and spend a couple years getting his innings up. The Papelbon comparison is also a bit unfair, since Papelbon didn't have the success Joba did as a starter. Perhaps he would long-term, but it's not a certainty

so true.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

ok, so here's the other side of the argument. usually i find the bats blog more in tune with me but not today.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...e-joba-debate/

Last off-season, readers of this blog and Yankee fans everywhere debated the fate of Joba Chamberlain, the dominant rookie reliever who helped the Yankees sneak into the playoffs in 2007. Despite his game-shortening ability as Mariano Rivera’s setup man, Chamberlain was converted to a starter for part of the 2008 season before tendinitis in his throwing shoulder sent him to the disabled list and eventually back to the bullpen.

Joba Chamberlain was effective as both a starter and a reliever last season. (Barton Silverman/The New York Times)Now with a revamped rotation for the 2009 season, a case can be made for keeping Chamberlain in the setup role. The Yankees simply do not need Chamberlain in the rotation the way they did last season.

Rather than rehash last year’s points, let’s look at the current situation. The strength of this argument depends heavily on whether or not the Yankees and Andy Pettitte come to an agreement. Pettitte has yet to accept the Yankees’ standing offer of one-year, $10 million to anchor the bottom of the rotation. Speculation is that the Yankees are willing to let ex-savior Phil Hughes play the part of fifth-starter if Pettitte refuses.

Should Pettitte return, is there any reason to believe (other than injuries) that the Yankees cannot survive with a rotation of C.C. Sabathia, Chien-Ming Wang, A.J. Burnett, Pettitte and Hughes?

Chamberlain in the bullpen would most likely make each starting pitcher better by shortening his starts. Fans concerned about Sabathia burning out in September or Burnett breaking down over the long haul could rest a little easier. A Chamberlain bridge would also make life easier for Rivera, who turned 39 in November and may not be able to crank out a two-inning save with as much ease as in the past.

In addition to keeping others healthy, Chamberlain could be healthier by remaining a reliever. There’s no questioning his effectiveness as a starter. His numbers as a starter last season (2.75 ERA and 10.3 K/9) were almost identical to his stats as a reliever (2.31 ERA and 11.1 K/9). But his shoulder injury came about as a starter, and fewer innings could only help him keep his shoulder strong.

A popular argument for having Chamberlain start is that you should not waste a player with such ability as a reliever because the more innings he can pitch the better. Wouldn’t you rather have 230 innings of Chamberlain rather than 90?

The problem with that argument is that you can say the same thing about Boston’s Jonathan Papelbon or a number of other great relievers. Are the Red Sox wasting Papelbon’s talent by limiting his innings and not converting him back to a starter?

If the Yankees used Chamberlain to shorten games to six innings, is that really a waste of talent? It sounds more like an incredible advantage to me.

personally, nothing has changed. you have to give him the chance to prove himself in the rotation. our rotation may have improved but it would be even better if joba is a success there too. i believe joba will eventually become a starter who you can get 30 starts out of and we'll need it cos AJ is unlikely to ever be that.

if joba continues to have serious arm problems when starting, then (as we all probably believe) move him to the 'pen.

An important fact that was ignored in this link is that Chamberlain has 4 plus pitches that he can throw for strikes. Papelbon did not. It is a result of this that was a driving factor behind converting Papelbon to a closer. It's the same reason Mariano Riveira was converted from a starter to a short reliever. You can dominate with two plus pitches at full throttle for 1-2 innings. To do so over 5-6 innings is a different animal.

Chamberlain is a very different type of pitcher due to his arsenal.

[ojo]

ok, so here's the other side of the argument. usually i find the bats blog more in tune with me but not today.

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...e-joba-debate/



personally, nothing has changed. you have to give him the chance to prove himself in the rotation. our rotation may have improved but it would be even better if joba is a success there too. i believe joba will eventually become a starter who you can get 30 starts out of and we'll need it cos AJ is unlikely to ever be that.

if joba continues to have serious arm problems when starting, then (as we all probably believe) move him to the 'pen.

that article states joba was 'converted' to a starter...that's a false premise from which we'll draw bunk conclusions. he was 'reset' to a starter, but was never 'not' a starting pitcher first and foremost.

[GordonGecko]

that article states joba was 'converted' to a starter...that's a false premise from which we'll draw bunk conclusions. he was 'reset' to a starter, but was never 'not' a starting pitcher first and foremost.

Absolutely, always has been, always will be a starter, no matter how many people like him to be in the bullpen

[R.V.47]

Heres some more madness. On January 5th we now have our first official yankees in the world series prediction.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...dictions09/mlb