Best option for our rotation?

[leutbneot]

I wanted to get an idea of what people think we should do with the remaining slot in our rotation for next year. We've got a very formidable 1-2-3-4 of CC/Wang/AJ/Joba (although Joba is limited to around 160 innings). Do you guys want Andy back? Do you want Sheets? Lowe? Or do you want to let the youngsters fight it out for the #5 spot? We have massive young SP talent in Hughes, Aceves, and Kennedy... maybe we should just let them cover the remaining games.

My personal opinion is to resign Pettitte if he'll take a pay cut (purely sentimental; I'd like to see him have the chance to close out the old Stadium and open the new one), or Sheets on a 2-3 year deal. However, I'd be more than happy to let Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves come up and take their lumps at the major league level. It has to happen sometime.

Come to think of it, any of these options would be fine to me. As we proved last year, you can never have too much SP depth, and AJ is a ticking time bomb.

Thoughts?

EDIT: In retrospect, I might have wanted to include a poll, but I usually find them too limiting, so screw it.

[Bub]

I'd take Pettitte first if he comes at a good price. After that, Hughes and Aceves battle for the next spot. I don't see Kennedy making it at the major league level, but I suppose he'll get a chance to change some minds.

[Tifoso]

Joba will pitch 5th, unless we go with another young guy

[leutbneot]

Joba will pitch 5th, unless we ho with another young guy

Yeah, but that's more an aspect of his innings limit. I've heard the suggestion floating around that we use three starters for two spots... i.e., Joba, Phil, and IPK (or Aceves) fill the #4 and #5 starter positions. It makes sense, because the two guys with the highest upsides (Joba and Phil) are both capped, and will need support from another pitcher to make all their starts. We try to get as much out of Joba and Phil as we can, but don't work them until their arms fall off. Maybe even save a little gas in the tank for the postseason.

Could you imagine a postseason rotation of CC/Wang/AJ/Joba with Phil as the long man in the 'pen? Yikes.

[dabomb2045]

I'd like to have Andy back. But if you told me my choice was between bringing back Andy and not getting another bat, or using that $10M to put towards signing Manny and going with Hughes/Aceves as the #5?

I'm taking Option B

[Yankee Tripper]

My preference in order would be

1 - Andy 1/10
2 - Penny 1/4M + incentives for IP or starts up to $10 for 30+ starts or 200 IP if meds check out OK
3 - Let the kids Hugehs/Aveces/Kennedy duke it out
4 - Sheets 2 year (but this sounds dead something in Sheets medical really spooked them)
5 - Don't sign anyone else for more than 1 year - any garbage filler then bring in will likey just be for early season innings depth.

[leutbneot]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think our rotation is going to be really good, with or without another FA signing. CC/Wang/AJ/Joba is crazy, and it's not like we're just throwing away the 5th starter spot. Phil, IPK, and Aceves have all proven at various points that they have what it takes to pitch in MLB, and I'd be more than happy letting them go at it and spending some cash on Tex, Manny, or Dunn (although we'd need to trade Nady or Matsui to make that happen).

Our rotation is going to be really, really good next year, and I think our bullpen is going to be the best in the league (really). Mariano had one of the best seasons EVER by a closer last year, and we've got a bunch of live, young arms that seem to have figured it all out last year. Plus, our bullpen is versatile... we've got strikeout guys like Edwar, overpowering guys like Veras and Bruney, potentially DOMINANT lefties like Marte and Coke (who I absolutely LOVE), and a bunch of other guys chomping at the bit that are right at the cusp of MLB success... Robertson, Melancon, etc.

Just goes to show that people that want Joba back in the 'pen need to have their head examined. The pitching on the 2009 Yankees is going to be a sight to behold.

[YESSIR!]

In the case that only by not adding anymore payroll for pitching could the Yankees add a big bat, the best option is letting Hughes etc. compete for the last spot.

If the Yanks are going to make their moves regardless, having Pettitte back for one year is definitely the best option.

[Tifoso]

Yeah, but that's more an aspect of his innings limit. I've heard the suggestion floating around that we use three starters for two spots... i.e., Joba, Phil, and IPK (or Aceves) fill the #4 and #5 starter positions. It makes sense, because the two guys with the highest upsides (Joba and Phil) are both capped, and will need support from another pitcher to make all their starts. We try to get as much out of Joba and Phil as we can, but don't work them until their arms fall off. Maybe even save a little gas in the tank for the postseason.

Could you imagine a postseason rotation of CC/Wang/AJ/Joba with Phil as the long man in the 'pen? Yikes.

That would be a dream team (and Mo in the pen) Wow

[Matsui-San]

I'd like to have Andy back. But if you told me my choice was between bringing back Andy and not getting another bat, or using that $10M to put towards signing Manny and going with Hughes/Aceves as the #5?

I'm taking Option B

Same here. Andy and a bat would be ideal. If getting the bat means that we can't afford Andy, I'm fine with Hughes, Aceves, Kennedy, Coke or some combination thereof filling the #5 spot.

[CommerceComet]

I'd be fine with signing another quality pitcher for the rotation (Pettitte, Sheets). The youngsters will still get a chance. What are the odds that all of the five pitchers on the opening day rotation will make it through the whole season without missing some starts? You can never have too much pitching.

[genius-24]

My preference in order would be

1 - Andy 1/10
2 - Penny 1/4M + incentives for IP or starts up to $10 for 30+ starts or 200 IP if meds check out OK
3 - Let the kids Hugehs/Aveces/Kennedy duke it out
4 - Sheets 2 year (but this sounds dead something in Sheets medical really spooked them)
5 - Don't sign anyone else for more than 1 year - any garbage filler then bring in will likey just be for early season innings depth.

At # 3, I would try to make some type of trade.

[Yankee Tripper]

At # 3, I would try to make some type of trade.

I would not be opposed to that depending on the arm coming back but at this point if they wouldn't trade Phil for Johan I doubt there are many deals he would sent packing in.

If they deal A or K I'd be OK with that too but I'd prefer a CF coming back in that deal as opposed to SP.

Also I didn't want to bog down the thread with speculative trade talks that are currently non-existant. Ifigured I'd limit to FAs and in house.

[primetime714]

Andy is definitely the best option. He may not be the force that he once was, but he is a solid innings eater which what we need in that final spot especially with Joba on innings limit and guys like Hughes, Kennedy, and Aceves also probably limited by innings. Plus performance wise he'd make a great 4th or 5th starter as he can still get it done. He just had somewhat of an off-year or off-half year as he was good for us in the first half of the year this past season.

[R.V.47]

Andy is definitely the best option. He may not be the force that he once was, but he is a solid innings eater which what we need in that final spot especially with Joba on innings limit and guys like Hughes, Kennedy, and Aceves also probably limited by innings. Plus performance wise he'd make a great 4th or 5th starter as he can still get it done. He just had somewhat of an off-year or off-half year as he was good for us in the first half of the year this past season.

...what he said.

[Buzah!]

I'm fine with either Hughes/Aceves or Andy coming back. I don't want to mutli-year any outsiders.

[wang+cano=future]

Andy is the best option. It give us more depth and will allow us not to rely on Hughes, Aceves or Kennedy for the rotation. It will be better for them to prove they deserve a spot in the rotation.

[THEBOSS84]

Andy is the best option. It give us more depth and will allow us not to rely on Hughes, Aceves or Kennedy for the rotation. It will be better for them to prove they deserve a spot in the rotation.

I absolutely agree with you bro.

I can't wait to see the reaction by the die-hard Pettitte fans here if/when Andy stinks it up and Hughes steals his job in the majors.

[Buzah!]

that's what Spring Training is for.

[BigBats]

Andy under $12 mil is probably the best option until Hughes reestablishes himself.

[DON'T KNOCK THE ROCK]

I absolutely agree with you bro.

I can't wait to see the reaction by the die-hard Pettitte fans here if/when Andy stinks it up and Hughes steals his job in the majors.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But WHY even waste $10 million on Pettitte when you and I both know he's just going to stink it up anyway??????? I can't believe how many posters we have on this board who are in denial that Pettitte is washed up. Let's save the $10 million we are willing to offer Pettitte, (and he wants the same $16 million he got the last two years, ) and forget about paying Mike Cameron $10 million for one year of him striking out a ton and that'll almost pay for a year of Manny.

Then it's down to how many years Manny will take, but at least we've already put aside $20 million for starters. That'll give us a solid lineup capable of scoring runs. And Gardner could still roam centerfield and cut down on other teams turning singles into doubles because we would have enough power bats.

I get so disgusted when the Yankees even think of bringing Pettitte back. Stick a fork in him, he's done!!!

[surge511]

Pettitte is absolutely the right move. Burnett, Wang and Joba all have injury question marks surrounding them, Hughes and Kennedy have performance question marks, and Aceves is relatively unknown. Pettitte gives 200 IP every year, knows what it takes to win in New York, and I think might be a very good candidate for a huge bounce-back season.

Imagine if he gave us something like 16-10, 4.00. As our 4/5 starter.. That would be very impressive. And not totally unexpected, considering he went into last spring as our #2.

[jesterno2]

i too, for sentimental reasons, would love to see andy back but if the choice is between getting andy and adding a big bat i will take the bat.

i agree that gardner will have an impact as a defensive centerfielder and will wreak havoc on the basepaths when he does get on. i think he will actually become a decent obp guy, he has had an adjustment period at every level he's been at but then he starts to tear it up. if we can move someone like nady (who i too could see regressing this year) and pick up manny or even tex i think that would give us the best shot.

i would love to see us go for a short-term incentive laden contract with sheets but i agree our rotation should be awesome even without him, his medical history is scary (although i think overblown and the increased IP each year is encouraging) and he will cost more than even andy.

i actually think hughes is going ot have a huge year if given a chance, feasting on lesser pitchers in the 5 hole. scouts raved about him in the AFL (one major league guy said he would be the #2 on their team right now, cant imagine what team...) and when he has been able to stay on the mound he has put up some dominating performances (rangers before injured hamstring and toronto end of the season). he'll have an inning cap as well but i think he'll make us look really smart for hanging onto him this year and with manny or tex bolstering the lineup (not to mention i think swisher is going to be a great addition with a big bounceback year) i think we bring hiome #27.

[Yankeesfan21]

1. CC
2. Wang
3. Burnett
4. Pettite
5. Joba (Aceves, Hughes, Kennedy) are all next in line for spot starts/injuries.

[Yankee Tripper]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But WHY even waste $10 million on Pettitte when you and I both know he's just going to stink it up anyway??????? I can't believe how many posters we have on this board who are in denial that Pettitte is washed up. Let's save the $10 million we are willing to offer Pettitte, (and he wants the same $16 million he got the last two years, ) and forget about paying Mike Cameron $10 million for one year of him striking out a ton and that'll almost pay for a year of Manny.

Then it's down to how many years Manny will take, but at least we've already put aside $20 million for starters. That'll give us a solid lineup capable of scoring runs. And Gardner could still roam centerfield and cut down on other teams turning singles into doubles because we would have enough power bats.

I get so disgusted when the Yankees even think of bringing Pettitte back. Stick a fork in him, he's done!!!

This post has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I don't think anyone is expecting Andy to come back an be the ace of the staff but going into last year he was NYYs clear #2 starter behind Wang and finished the clear #2 behind Moose (who performed well beyond almost everyone's expectations).

Andy posted an ERA+ of 98 - the first sub-100 ERA+ of his career. @ 14-14 Andy has still never had a season with a losing record. He did this while pitching with an injured shoulder for part of last in the year.

Despite the sub 100 ERA+ Andy had a better WHIP in 08 than either 07 or 06 and both his K/9 and BB/9 rates in 2008 were superior to his 2007 rates.

To say he's toast, stick a fork in em is a bit melodramatic don't you think?

Is he worth $10 - probably not, realistically he is an $8M pitcher at this point in his career but he has shown the ability to pitch well in New York which to anyone who remember the Ed Whitons, Steve Trouts and others of the Yankee past probably justifies overpaying him for a single year. Not overpaying to the tune of $16M mind you but I don't think anyone believes Andy is getting that kind of change.

[Matsui-San]

But WHY even waste $10 million on Pettitte when you and I both know he's just going to stink it up anyway??????? I can't believe how many posters we have on this board who are in denial that Pettitte is washed up.

Pettitte's FIP last year was not bad, indicating that his down numbers were largely the result of bad luck.

[ajra21]

My preference in order would be

1 - Andy 1/10
2 - Penny 1/4M + incentives for IP or starts up to $10 for 30+ starts or 200 IP if meds check out OK
3 - Let the kids Hugehs/Aveces/Kennedy duke it out
4 - Sheets 2 year (but this sounds dead something in Sheets medical really spooked them)
5 - Don't sign anyone else for more than 1 year - any garbage filler then bring in will likey just be for early season innings depth.

you think penny will take $4m?

[Ynkcpt23]

This post has more holes in it than Swiss cheese. I don't think anyone is expecting Andy to come back an be the ace of the staff but going into last year he was NYYs clear #2 starter behind Wang and finished the clear #2 behind Moose (who performed well beyond almost everyone's expectations).

Andy posted an ERA+ of 98 - the first sub-100 ERA+ of his career. @ 14-14 Andy has still never had a season with a losing record. He did this while pitching with an injured shoulder for part of last in the year.

Despite the sub 100 ERA+ Andy had a better WHIP in 08 than either 07 or 06 and both his K/9 and BB/9 rates in 2008 were superior to his 2007 rates.

To say he's toast, stick a fork in em is a bit melodramatic don't you think?

Is he worth $10 - probably not, realistically he is an $8M pitcher at this point in his career but he has shown the ability to pitch well in New York which to anyone who remember the Ed Whitons, Steve Trouts and others of the Yankee past probably justifies overpaying him for a single year. Not overpaying to the tune of $16M mind you but I don't think anyone believes Andy is getting that kind of change.

Not just melodramatic but silly. Andy tailed off in the second half after the offseason HE went through? And you're surprised that he struggled, esp. with a minor injury? Come on, he's no steal even at $10 mil per, but it would only be a one year commitment. It's an excellent addition, 200+ innings practically guaranteed.

[apalradio]

Andy's still the best option for that open spot. True, he's not the pitcher he once was, but I'm not convinced he's as "done" as some of my fellow posters claim. He'll slot in at #4, and give us 200 innings plus 12-14 wins. With Joba at #5 and other injuries waiting to happen, Hughes and Aceves will probably split another 12-15 starts anyway. But I'd rather have Andy take a regular turn in '09 than rolling the dice on those guys just yet.

[ajra21]

Andy's still the best option for that open spot. True, he's not the pitcher he once was, but I'm not convinced he's as "done" as some of my fellow posters claim. He'll slot in at #4, and give us 200 innings plus 12-14 wins. With Joba at #5 and other injuries waiting to happen, Hughes and Aceves will probably split another 12-15 starts anyway. But I'd rather have Andy take a regular turn in '09 than rolling the dice on those guys just yet.

a good post. well done. shame it was in ITL II. bit of a waste really.

[WIZ]

Bring Andy back. I'm torn between Joba as a starter or set up man. If Hughes does real well in ST I can't help but think about a starting staff of CC, AJ, Wang, Pettitte and Hughes. A bullpen of Mo, Joba, Marte, Veras, Coke, Edwar and Bruney would allow no breathing room for the opposition. Acevas and Kennedy would be our backup starters in AAA with Melancon and Sanchez our AAA bullpen reseves. Nice!

[Abe Frohman]

Bring Andy back. I'm torn between Joba as a starter or set up man. If Hughes does real well in ST I can't help but think about a starting staff of CC, AJ, Wang, Pettitte and Hughes. A bullpen of Mo, Joba, Marte, Veras, Coke, Edwar and Bruney would allow no breathing room for the opposition. Acevas and Kennedy would be our backup starters in AAA with Melancon and Sanchez our AAA bullpen reseves. Nice!

Im sorry but why is there still a thought in anyones mind that Joba will be in the pen ? Until he proves that he is unable to handle the workload of a starter, he will be in the rotation. His level of talent would go to complete waste as a setup / eventual closer. The kid has the stuff to compete for Cy Youngs year in and out. Hes that good. Joba is one of the main reasons why i cant wait till 2009. I wish more of us were on the same page about this ...

[JeffWeaverFan]

1. Andy for $10M.
2. Aceves and the other kids fight it out.

One or the other. Sheets seems like an injury waiting to happen, and I think Penny would just be a waste of money.

[JeffWeaverFan]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But WHY even waste $10 million on Pettitte when you and I both know he's just going to stink it up anyway??????? I can't believe how many posters we have on this board who are in denial that Pettitte is washed up.

Pettitte's FIP last year was 3.74, which is a much better way to see how one actually pitched than ERA. Pettitte was hurt last year by bad luck and poor defense.

His peripheral numbers last year were actually better than they were in 2007. Add to that that he is as good a bet as anyone is to give us 200 innings and he seems like a very good move on a 1 year deal. A guy with a 6.97 K/9 and a 2.87 G/F the prior year is far from done.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

I'm fine with either Hughes/Aceves or Andy coming back. I don't want to mutli-year any outsiders.

Agreed. Although I'd prefer Aceves to Hughes at this point.

[Huktonfonix]

No offense guys, but I'm not sure I want ideas for our rotation from JeffWeaverFan and JavyVazquezIsSick

[WIZ]

I said I was torn. I know Joba is amazing out of the bullpen. I don't know yet if he'll be amazing as a starter. I do worry about his durability as a starter though. So turning to the side I KNOW, I remembered how great it was when Mo set up for Wetteland and how the opposition knew that they better outscore the Yankees before Mo came in or the ballgame was OVER by the 7th or 8th inning. That's putting alot of pressure on the other team before the game even starts.

[PJMPirate]

No offense guys, but I'm not sure I want ideas for our rotation from JeffWeaverFan and JavyVazquezIsSick

The man has a point.

[Yankee Tripper]

you think penny will take $4m?

What I think he'd take and what I'd offer are two different things. No I doubt he takes that little but there are quite a few FA picthers still on the market and with that glut the price may come down.

I think he's worth a one year incentive laiden flyer, others probably don't. I agree he's a risk but one I'd consider rolling the dice on.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

1. Mark Mulder: He still is just 31 years old, is left-handed and isn't that far removed from the days when he was a front-of-the-rotation type of guy. And he believes he might have found a solution to his mechanical problem, with the work he's been doing this winter with a trainer who has increased his range of motion. He'll throw for scouts in January, and who knows -- if he can get back to his old delivery and regain some velocity with the strength and flexibility training he's been doing, he will be poised for a comeback season.

This is the type of thing that might seem like a long shot -- but at the right price, it has a chance to pay off in a big way.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...e=olney_buster

[Tifoso]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...e=olney_buster

Now that is really interesting. Always liked Mulder.

[Gusto]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...e=olney_buster

Worth the time to go see him throw ... insurance if nothing else.

[nnysiny]

Aaron Harang

[DaSh 1s]

Aaron Harang

That would be fun. We would lead the league in SO, with AJ CC Harang Joba.

[Third Stream]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/...e=olney_buster

worth a long look... that left shoulder scares me though... short money if he impresses in workouts... How many surgeries has it been on that left shoulder? 2 or 3 ?

We need a reliable back end guy... Joba will probably start the year in the pen...

[jesterno2]

i agree the joba to the pen argument is over until he really proves over the next couple years he cant handle the load as a starter. he has been a starter his entire career until last year when we plugged him into the pen, he has Cy Young stuff and you take 200 innings of that over 70 innings every time. i too like the idea of having him shut down the 8th inning to shorten the game if hughes becomes a dominant starter like he has the potential to do, but were talking about a guy with stuff thats as comparably dirty as burnetts. i could see it falling like that in the playoffs because of the innings limits but not during the regular season.

[Tifoso]

We need a reliable back end guy... Joba will probably start the year in the pen...

I used to think so. Now I'm not so sure. I think he's in the rotation, until he pitches his way out of it. Which is wht signing Andy as "insurance" is such an attractive option: Joba succeeds as a SP (as I think he will), then he can be a #5. If he fails, then Aceves or Hughes can become the #5, Joba as the 8th inning guy until Mo retires.

The argument is: how many Mo's/Papelbon's/K-Rod's are there out there? vs how many CC's/Beckett's/Santana's are there out there?

It would seem to me that elite closers are a much smaller group than elite starters. Could be wrong, though.

[jesterno2]

the save is the most over-rated stat in baseball. just look at the emergence and decline of relievers every year. corpas, lyon, gagne, lidge... the list goes on and on of guys who emerge in the bullpen one year just to decline the next year. relievers are possibly the most inconsistent performers of any position in any sport from year to year, thats what makes what mo has done in his career and the performance the angels have had in their pen the past 5 years as aberrations.
how many cy youngs have relievers won?
a pitcher will always have more value as a starter where he can dominate lineups over 200 innings as opposed to 70 (mo might be the only exception in the history of baseball but even mo has pitched behind some great pitchers to be in the position he has been in). if joba can stay as a starter you keep him as a starter.

[Third Stream]

I used to think so. Now I'm not so sure. I think he's in the rotation, until he pitches his way out of it. Which is wht signing Andy as "insurance" is such an attractive option: Joba succeeds as a SP (as I think he will), then he can be a #5. If he fails, then Aceves or Hughes can become the #5, Joba as the 8th inning guy until Mo retires.

The argument is: how many Mo's/Papelbon's/K-Rod's are there out there? vs how many CC's/Beckett's/Santana's are there out there?

It would seem to me that elite closers are a much smaller group than elite starters. Could be wrong, though.

You could be right, but that would make it difficult to hold his overall innings down for the year (especially if we're back in the playoffs)... Also, I read an article from early september that causes me to think he'll start in the pen:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09032008...pen_127279.htm

That means we're looking at three spots sewn up, and 2 more to fill with the young guys/whoever Cash brings in...

Closers vs. starters is always a fun argument, but it seems like starters can convert to closers more easily than the other way around... I guess Derek Lowe is an exception to that rule...