Yeah, Ramirez got torched in both his appearances at LAA stadium. In stadiums not in that mystical place somewhere amongst LA and Anaheim, his ERA was ~2.78, his WHIP was 1.1 and his K/9 was 10.3. That said, I still get nervous about him. The Yankees have what could be a very good bullpen. They've got some very good arms. The saving grace is that they have depth.Originally Posted by ppa79
Its probably somewhat wishful thinking, but I wonder whether the Angels are in Ramirez's head because they let him go twice? Remember he was an Angels prospect who they really didn't hold in much regard before he ended up in the Indy league where the Yanks signed him out of.
Could it be that he just has a mental block when throwing against the Angels?
Long shot, tin-foil hat type thinking, but one has to wonder when looking at his numbers vs. the Angels and vs. everyone else...
Given the age difference, the ability of Masterson to start I'd prefer to see him on our roster over Bruney, but there is actually a very good possibility that Bruney outperforms Masterson next year. Can you support your comment, particularly since you felt the need to capitalize for emphasis?
I'll take Melancon's upside over Okajima, sure. It's not nearly as laughable as jumping gun again and claiming the Sox have the better pen by adding two aging pitchers coming off major injuries.I love it. You'll take the guy who hasn't thrown one pitch in the majors over the guy who has been completely great for two years (oki). Talk about seeing things through pinstriped colored glasses. Jeez
You claim I'm seeing things through pinstriped colored glasses, but you, a Yankee fan are so enamored with the Sox that you go onto ignore facts and hard stats that show we had the better pen last year by a fairly wide margin.
I don't even wanna bother to rationalize how you figure they went from the inferior bullpen, to "far superior" by adding two injured old dudes and Masterson.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
I thought about that too... It could be a combo of that and the fact that the Angels are a professional and efficient offense that lays off his changeup. Plus, you have to wonder if there's something where the Angels have Yankee pitching in their heads... they feast on us.
Agreed.. Bruney was quite good last year, although he missed a lot of time, and he is still pretty young. I think he could be very good this year
"Trade a player a year too early rather than a year too late" -- Branch Rickey
Not even a little. That's just simply not true. He had a great year.
Calmer than you are.
Okijima was one of the best set man the last two years, if Melancon can come close to that you have to be very happy. There isn't much upside higher than that. To say you prefer Melancon to Okijima is crazy.
Ignore facts? What facts? We aren't going to have Joba in the bullpen this year. That's certainly going to hurt the ERA.
In addition, I said "If Saito is healthy" they have a much better bullpen. When you downplay everyone with the standard "two injured old dudes" I can't compete with that.
Calmer than you are.
Marte's ERA needs to go down significantly and Okajima's needs to go up significantly for them to even meet half way. How is this even a contest?
Bruney vs. Masterson? C'mon. Bruney has a lot more to prove, especially with his control issues, that he could beat Masterson's 3.16 ERA (over 88 innings.)
We got upside, but as things stand, their bridge to Papelbon is far better than our bridge to Mo in close games.
Mo > Papelbon though so I still think our BPs are pretty close on balance.
PS: counting on ANY rookie with no record in the majors to even come close to what Mastersons did last year is crazy.
Not that it means much, but I believe Bruney's ERA as a Yankee is 3.00 in 100 innings.
Actually the Angels have an extremely impatient offense, I'd say that it's more of a change-up pitcher who relies on feel, getting a little too amped up trying to show up his former team. They'd almost be better off holding him out of those games.
Okajima was awesome in 2007, but not in 2008. He allowed over half (13 of 25) of the runners he inherited to score. That's terrible.
Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.
Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA
I agree, he wasn't as good, but not allowing inherited runners to score is only part of what a relief pitcher does. He's still a very good relief pitcher, and I would easily take him over anyone we currently have not named Mo.
Calmer than you are.
It's one of, if not the most important part of what a middle reliever does. It's a huge factor in grading his effectiveness.
Mo' Nut: One Smoove Brotha.
Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA
See edit
Calmer than you are.
I do believe that's about right. He's on fire when he can find the strike zone. Problem is he often cannot and his ERA in 07 shows that (I don't even remember, but it's high). Even in 08, with casual observation, it's easy to see he was still overthrowing the ball.
Again, there is upside, but saying he's better than Mastersons now is kind of silly.
I don't see Okajima keeping his act up, favoring Melancon is an assumption based on the fact, similar to you assuming their entire bullpen is gonna turn around and is not only gonna be better than ours, but "superior" because of a healthy Saito and Smoltz. Which is a pretty damn big if and yes, the "injured old dudes" comment holds weight, because that's exactly what they are right now.
He has a 2.46 ERA in 104IP as a Yankee.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
Um, did you somehow forget Okajima's inherited runners scoring everytime he entered a game with runners on base last year? Kind of a big deal...
EDIT: Apologies, did not see Snatch's post.
"I see Jesus Montero as a potential once-in-a-generation force on offense."
Wow. Are you actually arguing that the Red Sox bullpen wouldn't be superior to ours with a healthy Saito and Smoltz?
Calmer than you are.
do you really believe that?
Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away; 'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...
the almighty Okajima for Hughes. do it Cash!
Why is that so hard to believe? I don't get it.
The last two years Okijima was much better than anyone else we have. Right now, Marte is our set up man.
Calmer than you are.
Isn't Smoltz going to be a starter for them?
As far as the comparison between bullpens as many have mentioned most non-closers are a total crapshoot. I remember two years ago when we all laughed at the Red Sox bullpen and it turned out to be the best in baseball. While we thought we had a great bullpen and it turned out to be a weakness of the team.
On paper with a healthy Saito I think you give a slight edge to the Red Sox. Saito, Masterson, Okajima, and Delcarmen would give them a strong setup to go along with an elite closer in Papelbon. Then they also have great depth with Ramon Ramirez, Wes Littleton, David Ardsma, Javier Lopez, and possibly even Daniel Bard or Jon Smoltz if he isn't starter. Just like any bullpen though things could go horribly wrong and this could end up being a weak group, but if things go right or go "according to plan" they'll have a strong bullpen.
The Yankees also do have a few more question marks in their bullpen than the Red Sox. Outside of Mo, Marte is the only reliever we have that has shown any sort of consistent success beyond a 1 year period and that was mostly in the NL. Edwar, Veras, and Bruney have had stints where their control was inconsistent to say the least. Their stuff may be very good, but all three of those guys could regress. Melancon, Jackson, Claggett, and any other minor leaguers have yet to throw a pitch at the ML level. Coke and Sanchez have only seen limited action. Robertson is still unproven. Giese is a journeyman. Albaladejo is still relatively unproven and is coming off an injury. The greatest strength of our bullpen though is the strength in numbers. From that group we should be able to put together a solid bullpen assuming that a bunch of those guys can perform at or above expectations. Just like last year where we'll see guys who will fail (like Ohlendorf in 08'), but we should hopefully see guys succeed (like Edwar, Veras, Bruney in 08').
Although I think our bullpen has the higher upside factor as we have younger high potential arms like Edwar, Veras, Robertson, Coke, Melancon, and even Bruney. All of these guys have back of the rotation stuff and have room to improve (altho Bruney will probably regress given a rate of success in 08' that will be hard to match). Whereas Boston's only real high upside arms are Masterson who already performed at a high level and Bard who probably wouldn't be called up until midseason at the earliest.
In the end I think both bullpen will be at least solid as they have the one key component that a good bullpen needs: the shutdown closer. Then to fill out their bullpen they have quality depth.
If you want a non-objective opinion though go check out the CHONE projections at www.baseballprojection.com they seem to project a slightly better bullpen in Boston. However their projections generally side with experience thus Boston's advantage.
I am looking at fangraphs and I am getting 105 IP with 2.99819ERA.
2008 honestly looks more like an outlier than anything else... with him clocking higher WHIP and ERA in the minors.
Sure it would be great if his sub 2 2008 is a sign of things to come... but judging by his wild control I just don't think that's the case.
I actually agree with most of this- though I do think that experience tends to be overrated in bullpens- if you run 10 rookies out there (so long as they are talented rookies and not just whatever arm is available that day), you will likely "hit" on about half, and the other half will "fail." It would just take a month or so to find out who fits where.
Right now, I am fine with the Yanks pen- simply because the Yanks starters will likely log SIGNIFICANTLY more IP in 2009. CC, Wang and Burnett, assuming health, will regularly get into the 6th or 7th inning.
That means that instead of forcing young, untested relievers into throwing whole innings to get to Mo, most of the time, Girardi will be playing "match-up" from the pen- putting the young relievers into the game in situations that the odds are in their favor and for a batter or two at a time- rather than getting stretched out. That alone should improve outcomes incrementally.
That would allow the Yanks to conserve arms for when the 4th and 5th SP go- Joba probably won't be allowed to throw more than 100-105 pitches in any game, and I don't think the final SP is on the roster yet, so we have no idea how much the pen will be needed for that SP.
Nonetheless, a good part of Boston's success is match-up pitching- something Francona does well- putting his reliever in the game in a situation where success is likely, rather than putting the fresh arm out there and asking him to get 3 outs.
I think this will likely narrow the gap between the two pens. That said, Masterson, Delcarmen, Okajima and Ramirez are battle tested and ready, where the Yanks are likely to spend ST and April feeling out strengths and weaknesses from their relievers.
Counting on either of them to be healthy and dominate (when one of them won't even pitch until June) is dumb.
In your dream world, Saito is gonna come back from an elbow injury at the age of 39 and replicate his numbers with the Dodgers. While Smoltz is gonna come out the gates 3-4 months into the season and dominate.
Not only do they have to beat our pen in every statistical category, but they'll have to blow past it. After all, they wouldn't be "far superior" otherwise.
In the end, he still allowed 13/25 inherited runners to score.
Last edited by teknetic; 01-12-09 at 11:02 PM.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
The general sentiment seems to be "Yankees young and promising, Red Sox old and experienced". I have no idea why this is so.
28, 28, 24, 26, 27, 24
27, 27, 24, 28, 24
The first line is the ages of Edwar, Veras, Robertson, Coke, Bruney, and Melancon. The second line is the ages of Ramon Ramirez, Delcarmen, Masterson, Papelbon, and Bard. Unless you believe, for some odd reason, that the Yankee bunch has room to improve while the Sox bunch has hit their developmental ceiling, I don't really think your point holds up. Why does Jose Veras have any more potential than, say, Manny Delcarmen? Because he hasn't pitched as much in the major leagues? I don't know about that.
Ramon Ramirez was a very under the radar pick up for Boston. He strikes out a hitter an inning and had a 2.64 ERA last year.
If you would like to argue there is no chance they come back healthy, that is one thing, but the whole premise of the argument was that they would be healthy. You were arguing they wouldn't have a superior BP with a healthy Smoltz and Saito. That's just ridiculous.
Actually in the end, Okijima is still a much better pitcher than anyone else we have. Obviously relief pitching fluctuates, Okijima was completely dominant in 07'.
Calmer than you are.
Ridiculous is trying to argue that both guys are gonna come back and perform at 100% while the Yankee bullpen arms all regress.
Not so much in 2008.Actually in the end, Okijima is still a much better pitcher than anyone else we have. Obviously relief pitching fluctuates, Okijima was completely dominant in 07'.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
They don't need to regress. The bullpens were very close last year, adding more innings with Masterson and losing all of Joba's innings is enough.
Still better than Marte.
Calmer than you are.
Why would they stick Masterson in the pen? Penny isn't good, Smoltz wants to start, but its unlikely he'll be able to. Melancon, Coke, and a full year of Marte should be able to offset Joba's absence. The bullpens weren't really close last year.
Still waiting to make up your mind about how his signing impacts this offseason?Still better than Marte.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
That's where they have said they are putting him. Penny isn't good? The numbers show he is above average. Melancon hasn't thrown a pitch in the majors, Coke has had limited innings (but I do like what I have seen) and Marte is a complete unknown for me. He pitched horribly with the Yankees.
What?
Calmer than you are.
Penny isn't good; career ERA+ of 106 and coming off a shoulder injury, he'd be lucky to stay above average in the AL East.
I don't know why you decided to throw out the Marte comment, but;What?
This makes me so angry. It characterizes everything I hate in the Yankees. Let's wait until it is official. I'm dying to hear Cashman's explanation on this one.So giving Marte a 3 year contract and not offering Pettitte or maybe Abreu arb. Truly brilliant.I can't believe how bad the Yankees are at this type of stuff. It's truly fascinating.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
He's an unknown but I wouldn't be willing to say he isn't good. He has shown good stuff in his career and has been above average.
Because I have argued that Okijima is still better than anyone else we have. Right now Marte is on the top of our BP depth chart.
Calmer than you are.
OkAjima...
dominaNt
Melancon (0.4) + Coke (0.5) + Marte (0.8) =/= Joba (1.7)
I just made that up but I think the point is clear.
He doesn't strike out nearly as much as he should with his stuff.
I never argued that Marte was better, I just don't see Okajima continuing to be dominant.Because I have argued that Okijima is still better than anyone else we have. Right now Marte is on the top of our BP depth chart.
Tiger Woods:Sent: 01:28 PM 09/08/2009:
Have you ever had a golden shower done to you
2003 Yokohama -- 4.18 ERA / 103.1 IP / 72 K
2004 Yokohama -- 7.71 ERA / 44.1 IP / 37 K
2005 Yokohama -- 3.82 ERA / 106.0 IP / 93 K
After the transition to the MLB:
2006-08 Dodgers -- 1.95 ERA / 189.7 IP / 245 K
No wonder why his arm fell off. He was pitching above his head. But wow what a collective three years the dodgers got out of him.
Those strikeout numbers are just filthy.
He's a talented pitcher. The Yanks should have pounced on him. The Sox got a steal.
The Sox got a steal if and only if an old man with elbow issues ends up panning out for them, otherwise no.
He probably will pitch very solidly for them, so it's very likely that it will end up being a steal, but can't be argued as one just yet.
if he's healthy, he'll be good. if he's not, he'll be on the DL.
Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away; 'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...
We'll see...Mark: Lyme: What is your take on the Sox signing Saito? 70% chance that he is a bust?
Keith Law: (2:42 PM ET ) The Dodgers' trainers were optimistic that he wouldn't need surgery. If he's healthy, he should be good. I'd say no higher than 50% chance he's a bust.
Calmer than you are.
i hate to say i told you so, but i told you so. saito sucks.
"Fans don't boo nobodies..." - Reggie Jackson
Saito has the same this year as last with the Dodgers. Started off good and then faded once the innings pitch mount up.
Great bump. Guy has an ERA+ 142, but yeah, he sucks because he gave up a HR.
Calmer than you are.
I don't care about Saito either way, but ERA+ for a reliever? He's got a 1.40 WHIP with a less than 2:1 K:BB ratio.
phil hughes made all of this a non-factor
"Fans don't boo nobodies..." - Reggie Jackson
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