Key mistakes of the 2008 season (with 20/20 hindsight)

[yankeeman61]

As we sit here wallowing in the latest disappointment with yesterday's brutal loss to the Angels, it seems many more fans are coming to the realization that the Yankees will likely miss the post season for the first time since 1993. I'm not giving up by any means, but it's not looking good at all. A lot of things have gone wrong this year. Some of it may be bad luck such as a ridiculous amount of injuries, but with the inconsistent play all season long you have to look at the complete structure of the roster and the personnel decisions made that has led to the results to date.

• The managerial change: We may as well start with a decision certain to generate a response of near-biblical proportions. Let me start by saying I like Joe Girardi. Of the 2 candidates the Yankees were considering, he was the right guy hands down IMO. Joe has done a very good job with the bullpen, no doubt about it. However, his overall inexperience has led to questionable decisions (including in-game decisions) that can be found throughout this forum. The most baffling IMO is the resting of hot batters and the continual every day play of slumping players. Girardi seems to out-think himself frequently. Joe Torre is such a volatile topic of conversation around here that we all pretty much land on one side of the fence with him. That said, IMO the Yankees forced a change with a 1-year offer for a guy who was at the helm for 12 straight post season appearances in favor of a guy who had 1 year of ML managerial experience. While Torre made his share of mistakes, he had a track record of overall success that was replaced with virtually no track record of sustained success. If you want to say "Torre turned the Yankees down", I say BS. They wanted him gone and I think it's disingenuous to say otherwise. If they had offered him 2 years, Torre would have been more likely to accept and if things didn't go as "expected" they still could have let him go after a year. They've wasted far more money than a year of a manager's salary. Torre faced quite a bit of adversity, especially in his last year and IMO would have been a better choice to guide the transition while still getting the team to where it should be. Yeah, I know..."that ship has sailed", "get over it", yadda yadda. I'm just saying the Yankees made a mistake, even though they wanted change and wanted to move on. Now Girardi did a fine job with managing a group of young and inexperienced overachievers in Florida before he told the owner to shut up. But this Yankee team was not a young inexperienced team with no expectations. IMO the Yankees went with the wrong Joe at this time. OK, flame away.

• The trade that didn't happen: I, like many fans did not want to give up Phil Hughes to get Santana and we don't know the answer (long term) as to whether or not it was the right call, so I'm not ready to call this a "mistake" yet. However, we all know the impact of that decision for 2008. What could have been a very solid rotation of Santana-Wang-Pettitte-Mussina and eventually Joba is something we would all love to have right now. Time will tell if this truly pans out for the future. But the Yankees did fail to have a backup plan for this year. See below.

• Lack of starting rotation depth: I am ready to call this a huge mistake. Since the decision was made to rely on 2 rookies with innings caps, the Yankees found themselves in a world of hurt when both failed miserably. For the first 4 games Rasner gave them, it appeared they lucked out in Small-Chacon fashion, but reality quickly set in thereafter. When Wang went down and Joba stepped in it appeared the Yanks lucked out again, until Joba went down, too. The bottom line is the Yankees went into this season without a contingency plan for their rotation, now having to rely on Dan Geise and Sidney Ponson to carry them through. They are very fortunate Mussina made the adjustments to be Maddux-like, otherwise they would be likely be in the basement of the AL East.

• Lack of a big proven RH bat: I swear if my old high school coach rubbed up his left arm and got out of his wheelchair to pitch against the Yankees he would get a quality start. The Yankees thought Shelly Duncan would repeat his Shane Spencer impersonation. It didn't work to say the least. Now that the X-Man has arrived that value really stands out. . Even Sexson has provided some punch against lefties. The problem is the Yankees waited too long to do something and now it may be too late to make a difference.

• Lack of positional MiL depth: The best the Yankees could do for help this year was Brett Gardner and Justin Christian. Their best catcher is in Class A. When Posada went down the Yankees had to live with Molina and Moeller's offense and until the decision for Po became surgery they had to carry 3 catchers, wasting a roster spot. Ultimately they give up a key part of the resurgent bullpen to get catching help, which may be a rental. I'm sure many will say good riddance to Farnsworth and he has had his problems with the Yankees. But they were finally getting something out of him and his departure meant 1 less quality arm in the one area of strength they had this year. IMO you never have enough arms. Since Farns has left, he obviously hasn't done well but neither has the Yankee bullpen. At least Girardi knew how to manage Farns in his role. Yeah, they "sold high" but the trade has disrupted the flow of what was going well. Has Pudge made up for it? Not yet. I just wish the Yankees could have brought up a decent offensive catcher and kept Farnsworth, but they couldn't and I do understand the move.

• The Girardi Boot Camp: I don't think this is a mistake as much as it was a false sense of comfort. There was a lot of assumption that since Girardi was whipping this team into condition that there would be less injuries and a better start to the season with more energy and urgency. The intentions were good, but it produced none of the intended results.

I'm sure there is plenty to add to this because this has been such an organizational effort there is plenty of blame to go around. I imagine someone will say that signing Posada to a 4-year deal was a huge mistake. The Yankees could avoid situations like his by changing their "no extension" policy. Unfortunately there is nothing they can do about any of this now. It's mid-August and they are limping into Minnesota with their tails kicked between their legs by the Angels and they have to grind out most of the remaining schedule on the road. Girardi looked like a beaten man in his interview yesterday. We'll see what he and his team is made of. It would be quite depressing to not have October baseball at YS in its final year, but that's exactly what is staring us all in the face right now.

[NYYDragoon]

Dude! Bad karma! Despite how awful things look, the 2008 season isn't over yet. I don't think we can make any real conclusions until then.

[Art Vanderlay]

As we sit here wallowing in the latest disappointment with yesterday's brutal loss to the Angels, it seems many more fans are coming to the realization that the Yankees will likely miss the post season for the first time since 1993. I'm not giving up by any means, but it's not looking good at all. A lot of things have gone wrong this year. Some of it may be bad luck such as a ridiculous amount of injuries, but with the inconsistent play all season long you have to look at the complete structure of the roster and the personnel decisions made that has led to the results to date.

• The managerial change: We may as well start with a decision certain to generate a response of near-biblical proportions. Let me start by saying I like Joe Girardi. Of the 2 candidates the Yankees were considering, he was the right guy hands down IMO. Joe has done a very good job with the bullpen, no doubt about it. However, his overall inexperience has led to questionable decisions (including in-game decisions) that can be found throughout this forum. The most baffling IMO is the resting of hot batters and the continual every day play of slumping players. Girardi seems to out-think himself frequently. Joe Torre is such a volatile topic of conversation around here that we all pretty much land on one side of the fence with him. That said, IMO the Yankees forced a change with a 1-year offer for a guy who was at the helm for 12 straight post season appearances in favor of a guy who had 1 year of ML managerial experience. While Torre made his share of mistakes, he had a track record of overall success that was replaced with virtually no track record of sustained success. If you want to say "Torre turned the Yankees down", I say BS. They wanted him gone and I think it's disingenuous to say otherwise. If they had offered him 2 years, Torre would have been more likely to accept and if things didn't go as "expected" they still could have let him go after a year. They've wasted far more money than a year of a manager's salary. Torre faced quite a bit of adversity, especially in his last year and IMO would have been a better choice to guide the transition while still getting the team to where it should be. Yeah, I know..."that ship has sailed", "get over it", yadda yadda. I'm just saying the Yankees made a mistake, even though they wanted change and wanted to move on. Now Girardi did a fine job with managing a group of young and inexperienced overachievers in Florida before he told the owner to shut up. But this Yankee team was not a young inexperienced team with no expectations. IMO the Yankees went with the wrong Joe at this time. OK, flame away.

• The trade that didn't happen: I, like many fans did not want to give up Phil Hughes to get Santana and we don't know the answer (long term) as to whether or not it was the right call, so I'm not ready to call this a "mistake" yet. However, we all know the impact of that decision for 2008. What could have been a very solid rotation of Santana-Wang-Pettitte-Mussina and eventually Joba is something we would all love to have right now. Time will tell if this truly pans out for the future. But the Yankees did fail to have a backup plan for this year. See below.

• Lack of starting rotation depth: I am ready to call this a huge mistake. Since the decision was made to rely on 2 rookies with innings caps, the Yankees found themselves in a world of hurt when both failed miserably. For the first 4 games Rasner gave them, it appeared they lucked out in Small-Chacon fashion, but reality quickly set in thereafter. When Wang went down and Joba stepped in it appeared the Yanks lucked out again, until Joba went down, too. The bottom line is the Yankees went into this season without a contingency plan for their rotation, now having to rely on Dan Geise and Sidney Ponson to carry them through. They are very fortunate Mussina made the adjustments to be Maddux-like, otherwise they would be likely be in the basement of the AL East.

• Lack of a big proven RH bat: I swear if my old high school coach rubbed up his left arm and got out of his wheelchair to pitch against the Yankees he would get a quality start. The Yankees thought Shelly Duncan would repeat his Shane Spencer impersonation. It didn't work to say the least. Now that the X-Man has arrived that value really stands out. . Even Sexson has provided some punch against lefties. The problem is the Yankees waited too long to do something and now it may be too late to make a difference.

• Lack of positional MiL depth: The best the Yankees could do for help this year was Brett Gardner and Justin Christian. Their best catcher is in Class A. When Posada went down the Yankees had to live with Molina and Moeller's offense and until the decision for Po became surgery they had to carry 3 catchers, wasting a roster spot. Ultimately they give up a key part of the resurgent bullpen to get catching help, which may be a rental. I'm sure many will say good riddance to Farnsworth and he has had his problems with the Yankees. But they were finally getting something out of him and his departure meant 1 less quality arm in the one area of strength they had this year. IMO you never have enough arms. Since Farns has left, he obviously hasn't done well but neither has the Yankee bullpen. At least Girardi knew how to manage Farns in his role. Yeah, they "sold high" but the trade has disrupted the flow of what was going well. Has Pudge made up for it? Not yet. I just wish the Yankees could have brought up a decent offensive catcher and kept Farnsworth, but they couldn't and I do understand the move.

• The Girardi Boot Camp: I don't think this is a mistake as much as it was a false sense of comfort. There was a lot of assumption that since Girardi was whipping this team into condition that there would be less injuries and a better start to the season with more energy and urgency. The intentions were good, but it produced none of the intended results.

I'm sure there is plenty to add to this because this has been such an organizational effort there is plenty of blame to go around. I imagine someone will say that signing Posada to a 4-year deal was a huge mistake. The Yankees could avoid situations like his by changing their "no extension" policy. Unfortunately there is nothing they can do about any of this now. It's mid-August and they are limping into Minnesota with their tails kicked between their legs by the Angels and they have to grind out most of the remaining schedule on the road. Girardi looked like a beaten man in his interview yesterday. We'll see what he and his team is made of. It would be quite depressing to not have October baseball at YS in its final year, but that's exactly what is staring us all in the face right now.

I don't have time to comment on everything, but in my opinion the biggest mistake was starting the season with only 3 established starting pitchers (Wang, Pettete, Mussina) on the roster. In my opinion Giradi gets too much blame while Cashman continues to get a pass.

[Brick Tamland]

The Yankees are very much alive in the hunt for the post season. 4 games out in the WC race is hardly dire straights. Things look bad due to the horrid performance over the weekend.

I'm not ready to comment on mistakes until this team is mathematically out of contention.

Injuries have ravaged this team, more so than any other team in MLB. There is not one other club out there who would have been able do the job these Yankees have done with the amount of injuries they've sustained. Take Lester and Dice K off the Sox for half a season and see where they're at. Not to mention what they'd look like were comparable players to Matsui and Damon missing significant time (I know Ortiz was injured for over a month but you know what I'm saying).

This team is still very much alive and IMO very dangerous right now.

[montrealer]

Nicely done.............I`ll buy some of what you`re selling...........I picked the Yankees not to make the play-offs for lack of an experience starting rotation and it seems that this is one of the reasons this team is starting to fade.
As far as Joey G.....i got caught up in the Hype that many posters here were pushing..............the no-nonsense ,play-hard and boot-camp attitude did not work. His in-game management is no better than Torre`s. all that aside the Yanks gave him a three year deal..........let`s stick to it and then judge......

[YESSIR!]

Et tu, Wanger?

I think I should start a thread with that title. Seriously, losing Wang was the deathblow. His injury was by far the biggest reason why this team might not make the playoffs this year. It totally destabilized our entire pitching situation, especially considering how banged up it was overall.

It wasn't a mistake, but rather bad luck. Everything else plays second-fiddle to losing the Wanger, IMHO.

[montrealer]

Et tu, Wanger?

I think I should start a thread with that title. Seriously, losing Wang was the deathblow. His injury was by far the biggest reason why this team might not make the playoffs this year. It totally destabilized our entire pitching situation, especially considering how banged up it was overall.

It wasn't a mistake, but rather bad luck. Everything else plays second-fiddle to losing the Wanger, IMHO.

bingo........that too....

[primetime714]

The one forseeable problem with our plan for this year was:

-Relying too much on young arms that were relatively unproven. Kennedy while good down the stretch really didn't earn his spot in the rotation. I think Hughes did, but I also thought there was too much pressure on him to perform as a middle or even top of the rotation caliber starter. Some veteran insurance policies like a Bartolo Colon or Kyle Loshe should've been given greater consideration and at least IPK should've done something to actually earn his spot rather than it beeing handed to him.

Otherwise for the most part our problem was freak injuries, slumping players, and guys not hitting with RISP. That's mostly just bad luck and not something you can easily prepare for.

Girardi IMO has done a fantastic job. I questionned his decisions a lot less than I did Torre's. With less talent available to him than Torre typically had he was able to turn our bullpen leading up to Mo into a strength (well up until recently). He got players like Giambi and Damon to get into shape and both have performed well as a result. Overall an excellent job from Joe and it was a good decision to hire him and let Torre go.

[MTYankee23]

The one forseeable problem with our plan for this year was:

-Relying too much on young arms that were relatively unproven. Kennedy while good down the stretch really didn't earn his spot in the rotation. I think Hughes did, but I also thought there was too much pressure on him to perform as a middle or even top of the rotation caliber starter. Some veteran insurance policies like a Bartolo Colon or Kyle Loshe should've been given greater consideration and at least IPK should've done something to actually earn his spot rather than it beeing handed to him.

Otherwise for the most part our problem was freak injuries, slumping players, and guys not hitting with RISP. That's mostly just bad luck and not something you can easily prepare for.

Girardi IMO has done a fantastic job. I questionned his decisions a lot less than I did Torre's. With less talent available to him than Torre typically had he was able to turn our bullpen leading up to Mo into a strength (well up until recently). He got players like Giambi and Damon to get into shape and both have performed well as a result. Overall an excellent job from Joe and it was a good decision to hire him and let Torre go.

This season has literally like you said, been the worst case scenario. The only things they should have been able to foresee would have been Posada and Matsui's injuries, since they're both in their 30s. Other than that, there wasn't a lot they could have prepared for. Colon hasn't provided much utility to anyone, Lohse is probably more a product of Dave Duncan than anything else. I get that we have a $200 million payroll and a historical stadium in it's last year, but judging by how the FO approached last offseason (and this season), it is and was a transitional year. Now, that doesn't mean they were or are punting on the season by any stretch of the imagination. But outside of Tabata, they really haven't given up anything in terms of prospects, and future payroll, that will affect them going forward.

This season looks completely different if A-Rod doesn't miss a month and 3 20 something pitchers (Wang, Chamberlain, and Hughes) make 20 starts each instead of the 33 they've made thus far.

The only thing I'm curious about, is what kind of offers might have been on the table for Ian Kennedy both this year and last. Hopefully that is the LAST time they draft a RHP in the first round that tops out at 92.

[yankeetomer54]

The Yankees are very much alive in the hunt for the post season. 4 games out in the WC race is hardly dire straights. Things look bad due to the horrid performance over the weekend.

I'm not ready to comment on mistakes until this team is mathematically out of contention.

Injuries have ravaged this team, more so than any other team in MLB. There is not one other club out there who would have been able do the job these Yankees have done with the amount of injuries they've sustained. Take Lester and Dice K off the Sox for half a season and see where they're at. Not to mention what they'd look like were comparable players to Matsui and Damon missing significant time (I know Ortiz was injured for over a month but you know what I'm saying).

This team is still very much alive and IMO very dangerous right now.

I agree with you that you can not comment on the mistakes before the yankees are elimenated. One thing I disagree with you on is that we lost because of injuries. How do you explain last season's injuries and the years before. How come the Yankees always have the most injuries? It is because the Yankees roster is full of unexperienced rookies and injury prone veterans that they sign through free agency and I think almost all of the blame has to go on Cashman who in my opinion is a terrible GM.

[Torre Must Go]

I defintiely felt it was time for Torre to go and thought Girardi was the best person available. Yes he's made his share of in-game mistakes but he's still a young manager and believe he'll improve.

Unfortunately, many of Cashman's moves and non-moves have backfired for this season anyway and the team has been snakebit with injuries to several key players. Combine that with Tampa showing signficant improvement and it shows we're in big trouble now.

I was a supporter of the passing on Santana, even if that decision doesn't look great right now. I still think Hughes will prove to be a big-time pitcher for this team in the near future. Unlike Kennedy, I believe Hughes has the makeup and stuff to thrive here. Perhaps realistically too much was placed on him too soon, though Hughes' impressive Sept and Oct last year were good signs going into this season. I think the team made a mistake thinking Kennedy could be a big contributor for this year. I don't think he has good enough stuff and his attitude really bothers me. I think Kennedy is someone who should be on the trading block in the offseason.

I also think Cashman gambled and failed thinking Duncan and Ensberg would give us RH power, as well as Hawkins being a reliable set-up man.

I'm also starting to have some seconds thoughts about the Pudge-Farnsworth trade. Trading for a veteran catcher midway through the season can be a risk and takes time to adjust. I don't think Pudge's pitch selection at times has been that good and might've hurt some chemistry. Also our bullpen hasn't been very good of late either.

Very big offseason to say the least coming up.

[Ynkcpt23]

I defintiely felt it was time for Torre to go and thought Girardi was the best person available. Yes he's made his share of in-game mistakes but he's still a young manager and believe he'll improve.

Unfortunately, many of Cashman's moves and non-moves have backfired for this season anyway and the team has been snakebit with injuries to several key players. Combine that with Tampa showing signficant improvement and it shows we're in big trouble now.

I was a supporter of the passing on Santana, even if that decision doesn't look great right now. I still think Hughes will prove to be a big-time pitcher for this team in the near future. Unlike Kennedy, I believe Hughes has the makeup and stuff to thrive here. Perhaps realistically too much was placed on him too soon, though Hughes' impressive Sept and Oct last year were good signs going into this season. I think the team made a mistake thinking Kennedy could be a big contributor for this year. I don't think he has good enough stuff and his attitude really bothers me. I think Kennedy is someone who should be on the trading block in the offseason.

I also think Cashman gambled and failed thinking Duncan and Ensberg would give us RH power, as well as Hawkins being a reliable set-up man.

I'm also starting to have some seconds thoughts about the Pudge-Farnsworth trade. Trading for a veteran catcher midway through the season can be a risk and takes time to adjust. I don't think Pudge's pitch selection at times has been that good and might've hurt some chemistry. Also our bullpen hasn't been very good of late either.

Very big offseason to say the least coming up.

Monumental understatement there...

You guys have all touched on the many difficulties we've gone through this season. Our bench production was putrid from the get-go, carrying three catchers only exacerbated the problem since neither Molina nor Moeller can do squat with a bat.

Injuries happen--you think the Sox fans aren't b******g about that on their site as we speak?

The one post I really agree with is that Wang going down with that freak injury really hurt us. You can't take arugably the best pitcher you've got and remove him from the rotation for half of the season and expect to continue on successfully. We've had to patch it together ever since Wang hurt himself. And now with Joba gone for who knows how long, I'm beginning to feel that YS is not going to be seeing any playoff games this year. We still have a chance, but we really need to dump on Minnesota to have any hope. We have got to start moving in the right direction or we're done.

[Brick Tamland]

I agree with you that you can not comment on the mistakes before the yankees are elimenated. One thing I disagree with you on is that we lost because of injuries. How do you explain last season's injuries and the years before. How come the Yankees always have the most injuries? It is because the Yankees roster is full of unexperienced rookies and injury prone veterans that they sign through free agency and I think almost all of the blame has to go on Cashman who in my opinion is a terrible GM.

Sure that's part of it. Matsui and Posada for sure were 50/50 to make it through the season. Then again, Matsui was signed after '05 when he was 31 and looked like a really solid deal. IMO Cashman had to sign Posada to the years he got as he probably would have been offered that on the open market and was coming off a phenomenal year.

Wang, Joba, Damon, Hughes, Kennedy? Can you honestly say that you thought they'd break down before the season started? Not to mention Jeter and ARod spending some time on the DL.

It's been a really tough season, bottom line.

I like Cashman and think he is a very good GM but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Brick Tamland]

Monumental understatement there...

You guys have all touched on the many difficulties we've gone through this season. Our bench production was putrid from the get-go, carrying three catchers only exacerbated the problem since neither Molina nor Moeller can do squat with a bat.

Injuries happen--you think the Sox fans aren't b******g about that on their site as we speak?

The one post I really agree with is that Wang going down with that freak injury really hurt us. You can't take arugably the best pitcher you've got and remove him from the rotation for half of the season and expect to continue on successfully. We've had to patch it together ever since Wang hurt himself. And now with Joba gone for who knows how long, I'm beginning to feel that YS is not going to be seeing any playoff games this year. We still have a chance, but we really need to dump on Minnesota to have any hope. We have got to start moving in the right direction or we're done.

Uh, I'm pretty sure they are, but my point was that if they had the kind of rash of injuries the Yankees have sustained this year, where would they be?

Probably not 4.5 behind the Rays in the East race. Probably not even close.

[Yankees47]

I am not saying the Yankees wont make the playoffs....But they are not beating Anahiem in a series in the first round...That is just not happening this year

[YESSIR!]

I am not saying the Yankees wont make the playoffs....But they are not beating Anahiem in a series in the first round...That is just not happening this year

Once you get in, anything can happen. It's all about getting there. With a healthy Wang and Joba, along with a healthy Matsui at DH, I think we could give the Angels a run for their money. Either way, I'd rather watch the Yankees lose in the ALDS than not watch them in October at all.

[THEBOSS84]

I am not saying the Yankees wont make the playoffs....But they are not beating Anahiem in a series in the first round...That is just not happening this year

Moose dominated them in one start and they never faced Joba this year. You never know.

[JL25and3]

Once you get in, anything can happen. It's all about getting there. With a healthy Wang and Joba, along with a healthy Matsui at DH, I think we could give the Angels a run for their money. Either way, I'd rather watch the Yankees lose in the ALDS than not watch them in October at all.

It wouldn't change the fact that this isn't all that good a team.

[R.V.47]

Uh, I'm pretty sure they are, but my point was that if they had the kind of rash of injuries the Yankees have sustained this year, where would they be?

Probably not 4.5 behind the Rays in the East race. Probably not even close.

When Ortiz went down, other guys stepped up on their squad. JD Drew all of a sudden looked like a superstar and Lowell and Youkilis continued to get big hits for them. They lost one of the best hitters of all time and really have not missed a beat. I hate the Sox but the bottom line is they were faced with almost identical circumstances as us this year and overcame adversity. We on the other hand did not.

[MTYankee23]

When Ortiz went down, other guys stepped up on their squad. JD Drew all of a sudden looked like a superstar and Lowell and Youkilis continued to get big hits for them. They lost one of the best hitters of all time and really have not missed a beat. I hate the Sox but the bottom line is they were faced with almost identical circumstances as us this year and overcame adversity. We on the other hand did not.

To be fair though.

The Ortiz injury highlighted just how replaceable DH's are. If anything, it should be the biggest argument against Ortiz ever being an MVP.

With Ramirez, they replaced him with a talented hitter in his prime who is better defensively.

It's hardly the same as the Yankees losing their 2nd most valuable position player (Posada), their ace (Wang), and Hughes. They also lost their most valuable position player (ARod) for a month, and their best starter at the time (Joba) for probably a month.

[primetime714]

When Ortiz went down, other guys stepped up on their squad. JD Drew all of a sudden looked like a superstar and Lowell and Youkilis continued to get big hits for them. They lost one of the best hitters of all time and really have not missed a beat. I hate the Sox but the bottom line is they were faced with almost identical circumstances as us this year and overcame adversity. We on the other hand did not.

Ortiz was their only major injury. Dice-K had a brief stint on the DL as well, but otherwise they've been alright.

We lost a lot more than them in terms of injuries: Wang, Matsui, Posada, ARod, Damon, Hughes, and Joba.

Yes, their players did step up with Ortiz out, but they haven't had to overcome half the injuries that the Yankees have.

[Brick Tamland]

When Ortiz went down, other guys stepped up on their squad. JD Drew all of a sudden looked like a superstar and Lowell and Youkilis continued to get big hits for them. They lost one of the best hitters of all time and really have not missed a beat. I hate the Sox but the bottom line is they were faced with almost identical circumstances as us this year and overcame adversity. We on the other hand did not.

As MT and primetime already pointed out, the injuries the Sox have sustained pale in comparison to those visited upon the Yankees this season. It's tough to make the playoffs when half your team is hurt for months on end in-season.

If the Yankees miss the playoffs, which I refuse to believe until such time as they are mathematically out of it, it won't be for lack of assembling a quality squad.

[yankeeman61]

The impact of losing Wang was a huge factor. But the decision to go into the season with only 3 highly proven starters made losing Wang even bigger.

The offense has been mystifying to say the least. Even Girardi has no answers for leaving runners in scoring position. I don't blame Girardi for his hitters not producing. He can't hit for them. But I find it interesting that his players seem to freeze up in key situations. Girardi tends to wear his emotions on his sleeve and is quite serious most of the time. Even though we've all heard the "sleepy green tea drinking" Torre criticisms ad nauseum, he did have a calming "don't panic" way about him. I played for both types of managers and depending on the personnel of the team they could respond (or not respond) accordingly. Maybe some of the players on this particular team tighten up for that reason. IMO it's possible they are trying to do too much, which is something Torre preached not to do. I am speculating based on what I've observed so I have no proof of what is actually going on in the clubhouse or dugout. But it's easy to read Girardi's expressions. I think he wants to win so badly that he overthinks and when things don't work you can see the frustration, which may carry over to his team. We also shouldn't forget that many of the veterans played for Torre for quite awhile and were used to his style. There was a big leadership change and sometimes it can take awhile for everyone to adapt. I'd like to think if this team were completely healthy it would be a different story with the offense. But they still have plenty of "good hitters" in the lineup who are not getting the job done consistently with RISP. Sorry for the conjecture, but I'm searching for answers, too.

By no means (as I said in the first paragraph) am I giving up. No matter how bad it looks or how frustrating it is to watch this team every day, I am there win or lose as I have been for over 40 years as fan of the Yankees. But it is becoming a very daunting task to make the post season.

[YESSIR!]

It wouldn't change the fact that this isn't all that good a team.

I didn't claim they were "all that good a team." I implied that if they were fully healthy they could play the Angels tough in the division series, and possibly even win it. As Jeter likes to say, sometimes it's the team that gets hot at the right time that's able to make a run at the WS. I see no reason why that team couldn't be the Yankees, given of course some improbable turn of events.

[mgpenguin]

This list is definitely an example of 20/20 hindsight and I have problems with most of the items listed.

First, I doubt that switching from Torre to Girardi has cost us many games. In fact, I'd say they're probably equal overall, but I have no way of proving that. Also, I find the "Boot Camp" bit just plain wrong. It didn't produce the intended results, so it was a mistake? A key mistake? Ridiculous.

Second, we have bipolar paragraph about the Santana non-trade. He's not ready to call it a mistake (despite it being listed as a key mistake), but supports it being a mistake because he would have helped this year. But you can't make a determination of that non-trade by looking at this year only. If Hughes can realize his potential, then the disadvantage of not having Santana this year will be negligible compared to the many years of good performance Hughes can give. This can only be judged five or so years from now.

Third, to say that there wasn't enough rotation depth, you have to say that going with two rookies was a flawed decision in the first place. And a case can be made for that. But if you were okay with entering the season with Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation, you don't have much of a case to make. This is because you're looking at what was probably the ideal situation coming into the year: you have what will probably be a SP ace in the bullpen, and three (Rasner, Igawa, Karstens) backup starters in AAA. You aren't going to sign any decent starters to back up the two rookies because decent starters get ML contracts, not MiLB contracts where they have to hope that they guy on the ML team fails. And you also can't plan on both rookies totally sucking and your team ace getting injured.

Finally, I think the RH bat point is somewhat salient, but mostly moot: this lineup would be great right now with a healthy Posada and Matsui. The problem here is key injuries.

[Spiker101]

What a bunch of whiners. Losing Wang was unlucky. Having Mussina go 15-7 with a 3.27 ERA was luuuucky. It balances out. The difference between this year and the last couple is that the offense hasn't got hot yet. There's seven weeks to go and the Yanks are a whole four games back in the wild card and if no one expects Tampa Bay to hit a rough patch you haven't studied the history of Cinderallas in September. I agree that the Angels look to be the class of the sport this year but anything can happen in a short series, and who knows that maybe having to win big at the end might actually help the Yanks come playoff time.

[Bleacher_Creature]

But they are not beating Anahiem in a series in the first round...That is just not happening this year

I would love for the Yankees to have that opportunity.....Just imagine, by then we might have Wang back and if Joba could pitch again this yr. that would make a pretty fearsome duo. Then Moose gets game 3. Pettitte, Hughes, et al. could fight for the 4th spot. Hey I could dream...

[primetime714]

The one thing I hope that Cashman learns from this year is that you can truly never have enough starting pitching. I think every year he picks up on that a little more, but it does also seem like we go into the year with too many question marks in our rotation:

2008- Hughes and Kennedy were being heavily relied on despite limited experience and innings limits.

2007- Igawa and Pavano were slated to be the 4 and 5 starters

2006- An aging Randy Johnson, Jaret Wright, Wang (his 2nd year in the majors coming off an injury), Carl Pavano, Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon coming off fluke seasons were all slotted for duty in our rotation.

2005- Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, and Randy Johnson all coming from the NL. And we also had aging Kevin Brown.

2004- Vazquez, Contreras, Brown, and Lieber were all slated for our rotation. Lieber and Brown turned out alright that year and Vazquez gave us a good half of a year, but there were certainly some risks taken with that rotation.

That's why next year I hope we go with:
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose
Hughes

-Start with 6 starters including CC, Pettitte, Moose, and Wang as proven options that generally are injury free (Wang's injury this year was a fluke). Then Joba who has shown he can be a very good starter at this level, but is still young and will need to be treated with a degree of care (i.e. innings limits). Hughes as the 6th option is the question mark as he has had injuries and has had some struggles at the ML level. Making him the 6th option takes pressure off of him and also makes him work to earn his starts. As the #6 guy he will undoubtedly get a chance to prove himself as the team has needed 10+ starters every year for the past 3 years or so.

In addition you keep guys like Kennedy (trade value too low to deal), Horne, Marquez, Coke, Aceves, Kontos, and Wright in the minors. Keep a guy like Giese in our ML bullpen as the long reliever and possible spot starter. And also add a veteran or two, perhaps take a chance on Mark Prior or keep working with guys like Zambrano and Milton.

[continentalg5]

It's been a Murphy's law year. Hopefully we can rebuild for 09.

[jpao89]

The Yankees as an organization started to chart a different course about four years ago. That course was one that looked to the future of the franchise by 1) avoiding long term expensive contracts where the Yankees would end up paying mostly for a players downside; 2) building the farm system by using the Yankees financial musclse to draft the high cieling talent (that asks for mucho dollars other franchises are not willing to spend) ; 3) not squanding draft picks; and 4) avoiding trades that gut the farm system and instead use the farm to provide what is needed at the ML level.

Even with this plan in place, however, the Yankees are paying for past mistakes such as long term contracts to under productive players, contracts to players who are on the downside/frequently injured, and squandering draft picks. For the most part, the Yankees have overcome these mistakes and made the playoffs. Perhaps this year, however, they will not as a slew of injuries to older players is costing the team. Regardless of whether they make the playoffs, I judge the Yankees success or failure this year based upon how the plan is working. From where I am sitting the glass is half full. Despite injuries to Hughes, Wang and Chamberlain, it is clear that the Yankees are starting to produce some very talented ML pitching that will produce for them in the years, if not this year. Does anyone doubt Chamberlain's abilities? As for Hughes, it takes time time to develop into a ML pitcher, but I have faith that he has the stuff.

The emptly part of the glass, however, comes from the failure of the farm to supply productive position players. By productive position players, I mean players that fit the bill of not only being able to hit, but having a high OBP. Once upon a time, this was a pre-requesite for the Yankees. Suddenly, they have turned into a team of hackers, see Cano, Robinson (ya know, the guy that takes the first half of every year off). In my opinion, more work remains to be done if the Yankees' new approach is going to pay off. I sincerely hope that if they do miss the playoffs this approach is not scrapped in a reactionary manner, just perhaps that someone is put in charge who is better at executing it.

[YESSIR!]

What a bunch of whiners. Losing Wang was unlucky. Having Mussina go 15-7 with a 3.27 ERA was luuuucky. It balances out. The difference between this year and the last couple is that the offense hasn't got hot yet. There's seven weeks to go and the Yanks are a whole four games back in the wild card and if no one expects Tampa Bay to hit a rough patch you haven't studied the history of Cinderallas in September. I agree that the Angels look to be the class of the sport this year but anything can happen in a short series, and who knows that maybe having to win big at the end might actually help the Yanks come playoff time.

No, Mussina's season does not balance out losing Wang. Not even close. There's nothing to even compare, considering Mussina would have most likely had the same season he's having now if Wang was in the rotation. But we'd actually be getting production from our #1 starter.

[Ynkcpt23]

No, Mussina's season does not balance out losing Wang. Not even close. There's nothing to even compare, considering Mussina would have most likely had the same season he's having now if Wang was in the rotation. But we'd actually be getting production from our #1 starter.

Good post. Mussina's season has been unexpected but the way he put that doesn't balance it out--Wang got hurt and hasn't pitched since. If he's in there I find it hard to believe that he'd be putting up the stats that we were afraid we were going to get from Mussina.

[yankeeman61]

This list is definitely an example of 20/20 hindsight and I have problems with most of the items listed.

Maybe that's why I put in in the title of the thread?

First, I doubt that switching from Torre to Girardi has cost us many games. In fact, I'd say they're probably equal overall, but I have no way of proving that. Also, I find the "Boot Camp" bit just plain wrong. It didn't produce the intended results, so it was a mistake? A key mistake? Ridiculous.

Maybe that's why I stated in the original post: "I don't think this is a mistake as much as it was a false sense of comfort" . The mistake was made by fans who bought into it

Second, we have bipolar paragraph about the Santana non-trade. He's not ready to call it a mistake (despite it being listed as a key mistake), but supports it being a mistake because he would have helped this year. But you can't make a determination of that non-trade by looking at this year only. If Hughes can realize his potential, then the disadvantage of not having Santana this year will be negligible compared to the many years of good performance Hughes can give. This can only be judged five or so years from now.

Maybe that's why I stated: "we don't know the answer (long term) as to whether or not it was the right call, so I'm not ready to call this a "mistake" yet. However, we all know the impact of that decision for 2008."

Third, to say that there wasn't enough rotation depth, you have to say that going with two rookies was a flawed decision in the first place. And a case can be made for that. But if you were okay with entering the season with Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation, you don't have much of a case to make. This is because you're looking at what was probably the ideal situation coming into the year: you have what will probably be a SP ace in the bullpen, and three (Rasner, Igawa, Karstens) backup starters in AAA. You aren't going to sign any decent starters to back up the two rookies because decent starters get ML contracts, not MiLB contracts where they have to hope that they guy on the ML team fails. And you also can't plan on both rookies totally sucking and your team ace getting injured.

Let me make this clear for you. As I stated: 'I am ready to call this a huge mistake"

Finally, I think the RH bat point is somewhat salient, but mostly moot: this lineup would be great right now with a healthy Posada and Matsui. The problem here is key injuries.

Gee, thanks for the "bone". But seriously, Reading Comprehension 101 would do you a lot of good

[yankeeman61]

The Yankees as an organization started to chart a different course about four years ago. That course was one that looked to the future of the franchise by 1) avoiding long term expensive contracts where the Yankees would end up paying mostly for a players downside; 2) building the farm system by using the Yankees financial musclse to draft the high cieling talent (that asks for mucho dollars other franchises are not willing to spend) ; 3) not squanding draft picks; and 4) avoiding trades that gut the farm system and instead use the farm to provide what is needed at the ML level.

Even with this plan in place, however, the Yankees are paying for past mistakes such as long term contracts to under productive players, contracts to players who are on the downside/frequently injured, and squandering draft picks. For the most part, the Yankees have overcome these mistakes and made the playoffs. Perhaps this year, however, they will not as a slew of injuries to older players is costing the team. Regardless of whether they make the playoffs, I judge the Yankees success or failure this year based upon how the plan is working. From where I am sitting the glass is half full. Despite injuries to Hughes, Wang and Chamberlain, it is clear that the Yankees are starting to produce some very talented ML pitching that will produce for them in the years, if not this year. Does anyone doubt Chamberlain's abilities? As for Hughes, it takes time time to develop into a ML pitcher, but I have faith that he has the stuff.

The emptly part of the glass, however, comes from the failure of the farm to supply productive position players. By productive position players, I mean players that fit the bill of not only being able to hit, but having a high OBP. Once upon a time, this was a pre-requesite for the Yankees. Suddenly, they have turned into a team of hackers, see Cano, Robinson (ya know, the guy that takes the first half of every year off). In my opinion, more work remains to be done if the Yankees' new approach is going to pay off. I sincerely hope that if they do miss the playoffs this approach is not scrapped in a reactionary manner, just perhaps that someone is put in charge who is better at executing it.

Very good points and I'm glad you hit upon how far back some of these mistakes go. I was going to go there, but my original post was long enough.

It's unfortunate that Hughes and Joba won't reach their innings "limits" this year. They are on the right track for the future with the young arms. Unfortunately, they didn't have a contingency plan for this year, at least not a good one. The rolled the dice that everything would work out and it hasn't for this year. Hopefully Hughes can come back and make a positive contribution down the stretch and Joba's arm is healthy enough to do the same.

[Kceracerone]

Ortiz was their only major injury. Dice-K had a brief stint on the DL as well, but otherwise they've been alright.

We lost a lot more than them in terms of injuries: Wang, Matsui, Posada, ARod, Damon, Hughes, and Joba.

Yes, their players did step up with Ortiz out, but they haven't had to overcome half the injuries that the Yankees have.

They also lost Schilling for the year and Buchholz and Lowell missed over a month on the DL. I don't believe that Beckett has made all of his starts either.

[Kceracerone]

The Yankees as an organization started to chart a different course about four years ago. That course was one that looked to the future of the franchise by 1) avoiding long term expensive contracts where the Yankees would end up paying mostly for a players downside;

Their free agent signings this year would suggest otherwise.

[BonusCantos]

They're on pace to score a whopping 187 fewer runs than last year. As flawed as the Yankees have looked in recent postseasons, there is no way any of us could have predicted such a steep drop-off in 2008 and there's not a whole hell of a lot that could have been done about it in hindsight. All the injuries couldn't be stopped, Jeter is having his worst season, Cano and Melky have been ice cold to varying degrees, and there's no hitting with RISP. While there may have been mistakes the Yankees made, as far as I'm concerned, the dissolution of the offense is ultimately the reason they're floating upside down (which isn't even a "mistake" really). Recent Yankee teams could slug their way into the playoffs; these Yankees can't.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

Going into the season, you couldn't of thought A-Rod and Posada were going to repeat their 07' seasons, but Cano, Jeter, and Posada's season have been most surprising.

[ppa79]

Not buying the Tampa Bay Devil Rays

[Allan]

Interesting topic. Well, all the injuries certainly cannot be classified as a mistake. But in retrospect I think the Yankees were a tad too cavalier in assuming that the young guns were ready to carry so much of pitching load. It was a gamble that didn't pay off... to date anyway. Hopefully next year, being older and wiser, they can make a bigger contribution.

But to my mind the key mistake, and I've been saying this for quite awhile, was the willingness to start the season with such a huge void in CF. I'm not going to elaborate about Melky's shortcomings..... Melky has written his own script and it hasn't been pretty. I can't help but wonder what the FO was thinking. Surely they must have known that Melky just doesn't make the grade as a starting CFer for a team with playoff hopes. Yet management stuck its head in the sand. Failure to improve that situation was the Yankees' biggest faux pas this past year IMHO. Hopefully it will be addressed in the off season or next year could prove to be just as frustrating.

[Cheesyhoboe]

But to my mind the key mistake, and I've been saying this for quite awhile, was the willingness to start the season with such a huge void in CF. I'm not going to elaborate about Melky's shortcomings..... Melky has written his own script and it hasn't been pretty. I can't help but wonder what the FO was thinking. Surely they must have known that Melky just doesn't make the grade as a starting CFer for a team with playoff hopes. Yet management stuck its head in the sand. Failure to improve that situation was the Yankees' biggest faux pas this past year IMHO. Hopefully it will be addressed in the off season or next year could prove to be just as frustrating.

Melky wasn't "good" last year, but he got the job done in the 9th hole. I don't think anyone expected him to actually decline from last year from a 89 OPS+, below average, to a 71+ OPS, which is just bad. I can't blame the FO for not replacing Melky. Austin Jackson is expected to come up next year and trading decent prospects for a decent CFer or signing a big name FA like Torii Hunter probably just didn't sit well with the front office, as either move would end up blocking Jackson. Also, no one expected the offense to sputter like it has this season, even with A-Rod and Posada returning to career norm years.

[Spiker101]

Good post. Mussina's season has been unexpected but the way he put that doesn't balance it out--Wang got hurt and hasn't pitched since. If he's in there I find it hard to believe that he'd be putting up the stats that we were afraid we were going to get from Mussina.

Your logic escapes me completely. Moose posted an 89 ERA+ last year which made him a well below average pitcher, so well below average in fact he was yanked out of the rotation. His ERA+ was below 100 in two of the three previous seasons. Plus: he turned 39 this year.
Wang meanwhile has never posted an ERA+ above 129 (his highest was 124)
So in effect, Moose took on Wang's load and the question is whether the guys who replaced Wang have more or less given the team what might have been expected from Moose at the beginning of the season. The answer to that is yes. In fact, the overall numbers on the team's pitching is almost exactly the same this season as last (98 ERA+ compared to 99 ERA+)

It's the offense.

[siddiqi]

well, a lot has gone wrong this year, mostly injuries to key player i.e. Matsui, Posada, and A-Rod. We've also lost 3/5ths of our starting rotation due to ineffectiveness and injuries. No amount of preparation and offseason moves can fix that. Cash has tried his best, but even he can do so much, sometimes these things happen, there are still 40+ games left in the season, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that Hughes and Matsui get healthy and we get hot and get in the playoffs, once we're in it's a whole new ballgame. Also, we've won one more game than the Sox have against the Angels if that makes anyone feel any better.

[WIZ]

If Wang stayed healthy we'd probably be ahead in the wild card race and on the T.B.Rays' heels for 1st. Cashman should have added an experienced starter as an insurance policy in case the youngsters didn't perform or hit their innings limit. He should've traded IPK during the off-season because he was added to the Joba/Hughes conversation even though he is not and never was as talented. I'm sure someone would have bit on him as a hyped prospect (we sure did). I've never felt the organization was fully devoted to fielding a championship level team this season. When they were using words like "transitional" to describe this season it told me all I needed to know. While it would be great to win a championship in the last year of the old Stadium it is imperative to win it all in the new Stadium. Therefore, bargain basement deals with Pittsburgh and Detroit are fine but strong moves like Santana and Sabathia are out of the question. I'm not going to complain because I fully expect next off-season to be full of big moves. Signing C.C. Sabathia and Mark Texeira should be top priorities. Trades to change the make-up of this team should keep us busy all winter.

[KeithF40]

Fantastic post. EVERYTHING is right there. Everyone is to blame here. Let's hope Hank, who I think is gonna be great, can fix this horrid mess.

[BRNXBMRS]

Not Hitting With Runners In Scoring Position Has Destroyed The Yanks This Year!

[allybear]

The injuries can't be classified as a "mistake" because a lot of them are just too hard to predict - you might have been able to say that Matsui and Posada are at the age to be injured, but Posada certainly had no serious injury history before this year. As far as the pitching injuries - who'd think Moose would be fine and the young guys would get hurt? There are things you just can't predict.

The most disappointing thing about this year that is correctable (unlike the injury situation) is the lack of patience at the plate. Between the stars who get up thinking they "have to" win the game on one swing, which hardly ever works out, and the younger players who just can't seem to take a pitch to save their lives, the offense is a study in frustration these days. I don't know who they have to bring in, but bring in someone to teach these guys patience. Obviously, if you don't have the eye, you don't have the eye, but these are major-league players, I believe they can be taught patience and common sense - if a pitcher has thrown 5 balls in his past 6 pitches, don't swing at the first pitch!

Besides that, I think we overestimated the talent and readiness of our young pitchers. Hopefully Kennedy will feel a "twinge" of some type and not pitch for a few games, because the only way to get anything of value for him is if people don't see him actually pitching. I am very sad, I had high hopes for him. Hughes got hurt, and there's no telling how much that affected his pitching and what's really there until next year when he's 100% again.

As far as Girardi, I have no problem with the move. I liked Joe Torre, but as the years rolled along, I had issues with his managing, especially the overuse of some pitchers. Just think, if he was still here, we couldn't have gotten anything for Farnsworth because his arm would be hanging off!

I have no clue if we'll make the playoffs. I think the team could play better than it has, but I really don't know if we lost too many players and too many games already for the playoffs to be a viable idea. I hope we do, just because I always hope we do, and because I worry that if we don't, they are going to go on a wild and probably unproductive spending spree.

[PinstripeDynasty]

As we sit here wallowing in the latest disappointment with yesterday's brutal loss to the Angels, it seems many more fans are coming to the realization that the Yankees will likely miss the post season for the first time since 1993. I'm not giving up by any means, but it's not looking good at all. A lot of things have gone wrong this year. Some of it may be bad luck such as a ridiculous amount of injuries, but with the inconsistent play all season long you have to look at the complete structure of the roster and the personnel decisions made that has led to the results to date.

I don’t completely disagree with you as much as my comments will indicate, but I’m just going to play devil’s advocate for a bit.

The managerial change: We may as well start with a decision certain to generate a response of near-biblical proportions. Let me start by saying I like Joe Girardi. Of the 2 candidates the Yankees were considering, he was the right guy hands down IMO. Joe has done a very good job with the bullpen, no doubt about it. However, his overall inexperience has led to questionable decisions (including in-game decisions) that can be found throughout this forum. The most baffling IMO is the resting of hot batters and the continual every day play of slumping players. Girardi seems to out-think himself frequently. Joe Torre is such a volatile topic of conversation around here that we all pretty much land on one side of the fence with him. That said, IMO the Yankees forced a change with a 1-year offer for a guy who was at the helm for 12 straight post season appearances in favor of a guy who had 1 year of ML managerial experience. While Torre made his share of mistakes, he had a track record of overall success that was replaced with virtually no track record of sustained success. If you want to say "Torre turned the Yankees down", I say BS. They wanted him gone and I think it's disingenuous to say otherwise. If they had offered him 2 years, Torre would have been more likely to accept and if things didn't go as "expected" they still could have let him go after a year. They've wasted far more money than a year of a manager's salary. Torre faced quite a bit of adversity, especially in his last year and IMO would have been a better choice to guide the transition while still getting the team to where it should be. Yeah, I know..."that ship has sailed", "get over it", yadda yadda. I'm just saying the Yankees made a mistake, even though they wanted change and wanted to move on. Now Girardi did a fine job with managing a group of young and inexperienced overachievers in Florida before he told the owner to shut up. But this Yankee team was not a young inexperienced team with no expectations. IMO the Yankees went with the wrong Joe at this time. OK, flame away.

Torre’s time had to run out eventually. You can argue that it happened a few years too late. If Girardi wasn’t the answer, I’d like to hear a better choice. He seemed a guy that was both well respected by players and had good potential managerial skills evidenced by his year in Florida.

The trade that didn't happen: I, like many fans did not want to give up Phil Hughes to get Santana and we don't know the answer (long term) as to whether or not it was the right call, so I'm not ready to call this a "mistake" yet. However, we all know the impact of that decision for 2008. What could have been a very solid rotation of Santana-Wang-Pettitte-Mussina and eventually Joba is something we would all love to have right now. Time will tell if this truly pans out for the future. But the Yankees did fail to have a backup plan for this year. See below.

I’m willing to stand by this decision, that I prefer Hughes for the rest of his career to Santana for the rest of his career. We can revisit this in a few years. I’ll grant you Santana would have helped a whole lot more this year. However, if the Yankees are willing to spend $25 million a year on a starting pitcher, CC Sabathia could be an option next year.

Lack of starting rotation depth: I am ready to call this a huge mistake. Since the decision was made to rely on 2 rookies with innings caps, the Yankees found themselves in a world of hurt when both failed miserably. For the first 4 games Rasner gave them, it appeared they lucked out in Small-Chacon fashion, but reality quickly set in thereafter. When Wang went down and Joba stepped in it appeared the Yanks lucked out again, until Joba went down, too. The bottom line is the Yankees went into this season without a contingency plan for their rotation, now having to rely on Dan Geise and Sidney Ponson to carry them through. They are very fortunate Mussina made the adjustments to be Maddux-like, otherwise they would be likely be in the basement of the AL East.

I really don’t think many teams have depth beyond 6 starting pitchers. Between Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy, we only needed 2 of them to occupy the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation, it’s not like we needed all 3, and it’s not like we were relying on any of them to be a #1 or #2 starter. Besides, Giese and Ponson actually have filled in decently. It’s some of the other fill-ins like Rasner and a not-ready Kennedy -- because we are desperate due to injuries -- that haven’t.

Lack of a big proven RH bat: I swear if my old high school coach rubbed up his left arm and got out of his wheelchair to pitch against the Yankees he would get a quality start. The Yankees thought Shelly Duncan would repeat his Shane Spencer impersonation. It didn't work to say the least. Now that the X-Man has arrived that value really stands out. . Even Sexson has provided some punch against lefties. The problem is the Yankees waited too long to do something and now it may be too late to make a difference.

How about A-Rod? Posada, Jeter bat right handed, too. Aren’t about 75% of all starting pitchers right-handed anyway? With such a supposedly lefty-loaded lineup, how come we haven’t crushed right-handers this year?

Lack of positional MiL depth: The best the Yankees could do for help this year was Brett Gardner and Justin Christian. Their best catcher is in Class A. When Posada went down the Yankees had to live with Molina and Moeller's offense and until the decision for Po became surgery they had to carry 3 catchers, wasting a roster spot. Ultimately they give up a key part of the resurgent bullpen to get catching help, which may be a rental. I'm sure many will say good riddance to Farnsworth and he has had his problems with the Yankees. But they were finally getting something out of him and his departure meant 1 less quality arm in the one area of strength they had this year. IMO you never have enough arms. Since Farns has left, he obviously hasn't done well but neither has the Yankee bullpen. At least Girardi knew how to manage Farns in his role. Yeah, they "sold high" but the trade has disrupted the flow of what was going well. Has Pudge made up for it? Not yet. I just wish the Yankees could have brought up a decent offensive catcher and kept Farnsworth, but they couldn't and I do understand the move.

Betemit was supposed to be a quality IF bat. Molina is a great defensive backup catcher. And between Damon, Matsui, Abreu and Melky, that should have been enough for the 3 OF spots. Again, injuries (to Posada, Matsui and Damon) killed us here. And you can't say that Cashman hasn't done a good job at the trading deadline to help fill in some holes.

The Girardi Boot Camp: I don't think this is a mistake as much as it was a false sense of comfort. There was a lot of assumption that since Girardi was whipping this team into condition that there would be less injuries and a better start to the season with more energy and urgency. The intentions were good, but it produced none of the intended results.

I can’t imagine this made any difference.

I'm sure there is plenty to add to this because this has been such an organizational effort there is plenty of blame to go around. I imagine someone will say that signing Posada to a 4-year deal was a huge mistake. The Yankees could avoid situations like his by changing their "no extension" policy. Unfortunately there is nothing they can do about any of this now. It's mid-August and they are limping into Minnesota with their tails kicked between their legs by the Angels and they have to grind out most of the remaining schedule on the road. Girardi looked like a beaten man in his interview yesterday. We'll see what he and his team is made of. It would be quite depressing to not have October baseball at YS in its final year, but that's exactly what is staring us all in the face right now.

I love Posada but I would have let him go in lieu of signing him to that contact, and I said it then.

Teams often miss the playoffs one year then win the World Series the next. Missing the playoffs isn’t the end of the world.

[yankeeman61]

I don’t completely disagree with you as much as my comments will indicate, but I’m just going to play devil’s advocate for a bit.


Torre’s time had to run out eventually. You can argue that it happened a few years too late. If Girardi wasn’t the answer, I’d like to hear a better choice. He seemed a guy that was both well respected by players and had good potential managerial skills evidenced by his year in Florida.

Here's the problem I have with this. Who was the better choice to manage the Yankees "a few years ago"? The bottom line is with Torre at the helm the team was still in a position to get to the WS every year he was the manager. He was replaced by a manager with 1 year of experience...ONE. In a market that barely cares about baseball. In that one year he managed to piss off the owner enough to fire him. Yes, Torre wasn't going to be around forever, but my argument is now wasn't the time to replace him, especially with an inexperienced manager.

I’m willing to stand by this decision, that I prefer Hughes for the rest of his career to Santana for the rest of his career. We can revisit this in a few years. I’ll grant you Santana would have helped a whole lot more this year. However, if the Yankees are willing to spend $25 million a year on a starting pitcher, CC Sabathia could be an option next year.

Yes, as I stated it's going to be awhile before we know what the right call was. I hope they do get CC.

I really don’t think many teams have depth beyond 6 starting pitchers. Between Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy, we only needed 2 of them to occupy the #4 and #5 spots in the rotation, it’s not like we needed all 3, and it’s not like we were relying on any of them to be a #1 or #2 starter. Besides, Giese and Ponson actually have filled in decently. It’s some of the other fill-ins like Rasner and a not-ready Kennedy -- because we are desperate due to injuries -- that haven’t.

Here's the problem: the innings caps meant they needed depth. Giese has only become a starter recently. After his first 4 starts Rasner came back to earth. Ponson was shaky in the beginning and won because of the run support he was getting. He has been much better recently. The problem I have is the Yankees went into the season without a backup plan and a lot of games went by before they reacted and did something.

How about A-Rod? Posada, Jeter bat right handed, too. Aren’t about 75% of all starting pitchers right-handed anyway? With such a supposedly lefty-loaded lineup, how come we haven’t crushed right-handers this year?

The Yankees knew Posada had a big problem early on. That leaves two quality RH bats. That's not enough balance and yes the lefties should have been crushing RH pitching. For the first 2 months of the season the Yankees got next to nothing from Cano and Giambi.

Betemit was supposed to be a quality IF bat. Molina is a great defensive backup catcher. And between Damon, Matsui, Abreu and Melky, that should have been enough for the 3 OF spots. Again, injuries (to Posada, Matsui and Damon) killed us here. And you can't say that Cashman hasn't done a good job at the trading deadline to help fill in some holes.

Meat is only good from the left side. Carrying a 3rd catcher because of Posada wasted a roster spot and yes, Cashman did a good job at the deadline.

I can’t imagine this made any difference.

It didn't. That was my point exactly.

I love Posada but I would have let him go in lieu of signing him to that contact, and I said it then.

Teams often miss the playoffs one year then win the World Series the next. Missing the playoffs isn’t the end of the world

Letting Posada go would have meant a trade would have needed to be made for an every day catcher. I don't know who they could have gotten, but a quality hitting catcher is a premium price. Who would you have been willing to give up? Po was their best option. I really think the mistake the Yankees made was waiting until his contract expired to sign him. If they had tried to extend him before the season began last year maybe they get him for 2 more years instead of 4.

If they miss, they miss. I lived through the Horace Clarke years, so it's not the end of the world. But it will be disappointing because this team has a tad more talent than the '68 Yankees.

[MissingBillyMartin]

Uh, I'm pretty sure they are, but my point was that if they had the kind of rash of injuries the Yankees have sustained this year, where would they be?

Probably not 4.5 behind the Rays in the East race. Probably not even close.

They lost Ortiz for a month and a half and Lester is the only starter for them not to have been on the DL. The difference is when they had injuries the team kept chugging along. Also Casey and Lowrie have come up big for them while Cora, Lugo, Lowell, and Youkilis have been out hurt.