Joe Torre Discussion Thread

[TEPLimey]

The purpose of this thread will be to discuss Joe Torre's performance with the Dodgers and somehow link his managerial decisions there to retroactively apply to his stint with the Yankees.

I'll start with "Kemp v. Pierre: Why is Kemp getting 50% more PAs than Pierre and what effect does that have on the 1996-2007 Yankees?"

My point couldn't have been clearer regardless of how you'd like to paint it. He's still alive making bad decisions ***right now***. All you'll need to do is watch.

What Torre is doing right now has no bearing whatsoever on his tenure with the Yankees. I am waiting for these allegedly egregious mistakes that Torre made while with the Yankees that cost them the game/season.

[Bologma!]

I would have went with:

Bologma's "Why Does Everyone Over 60 Love Joe Torre?" Thread

[hardrain]

well this is silly...you guys can't play nice and the world must witness it and suffer so?

the pain...the pain...

[TEPLimey]

well this is silly...you guys can't play nice and the world must witness it and suffer so?

the pain...the pain...

Oh please... this thread will result in some combination of (1) the NYYFans server crashing; (2) someone - which will probably not be me - throwing their monitor across the room; and (3) wild entertainment.

[TEPLimey]

I would have went with:

Bologma's "Why Does Everyone Over 60 Love Joe Torre?" Thread

I'm 28.

We could go with the "Why do people without cogent arguments revert to insults" thread...

[hardrain]

Oh please... this thread will result in some combination of (1) the NYYFans server crashing; (2) someone - which will probably not be me - throwing their monitor across the room; and (3) wild entertainment.

Oh ya, I'm down with #3...I may get some popcorn and watch. Of course I am an anti-Torre guy, but he's not a factor anymore, he is 3000 miles away and constantly comparing what he is doing now to what might or might not happen with Girardi is a waste of energy...and since E = mc2, there could be an explosion.

[Bologma!]

I am waiting for these allegedly egregious mistakes that Torre made while with the Yankees that cost them the game/season.

The reason arguing with you on this topic gets no where is right here, short of him actually leaving the dugout and telling the umps "forfeit" you'll never agree that he makes bad decisions that make it more difficult to win. That playing Pierre in front of Kemp for no good reason hurts his team. That pitching Gordon in blowouts and therefore leaving him unavailable for close games hurts his team. That using Bernie as a defensive replacement for Melky hurts the team. That using Vizcaino with a 10-run lead (after he complained about shoulder pain no less) hurts the team....

[TEPLimey]

The reason arguing with you on this topic gets no where is right here, short of him actually leaving the dugout and telling the umps "forfeit" you'll never agree that he makes bad decisions that make it more difficult to win.

Not true. There are times when I think he has made mistakes. But you fail to even identify a single one.

That playing Pierre in front of Kemp for no good reason hurts his team.

It didn't hurt the 1996-2007 Yankees.

That pitching Gordon in blowouts and therefore leaving him unavailable for close games hurts his team.

Gordon had 2 career seasons under Torre. Which game in particular (and without the benefit of hindsight) should he not have been used?

That using Bernie as a defensive replacement for Melky hurts the team.

I don't believe this ever happened.

That using Vizcaino with a 10-run lead (after he complained about shoulder pain no less) hurts the team....

Again, specific games?

[Jasbro]

The reason arguing with you on this topic gets no where is right here, short of him actually leaving the dugout and telling the umps "forfeit" you'll never agree that he makes bad decisions that make it more difficult to win. That playing Pierre in front of Kemp for no good reason hurts his team. That pitching Gordon in blowouts and therefore leaving him unavailable for close games hurts his team. That using Bernie as a defensive replacement for Melky hurts the team. That using Vizcaino with a 10-run lead (after he complained about shoulder pain no less) hurts the team....

97 wins/year since 2000. Postseason every year. Results.

You're whining about style points. I don't recall seeing a spot on the scoreboard or in the standings that show how a manager gets his team somewhere -- all I see are numbers telling us where he got them.

[4bronxbombers]

Hmm...can't see this going anywhere good.

[Bologma!]

It didn't hurt the 1996-2007 Yankees.

Sorry TEP, this is Bologma's Joe Torre thread. We will discuss the other 1,914 and counting games that he tries to f up.

[yankeebot]

Hmm...can't see this going anywhere good.

Are you kidding? This is nothing short of fantastic. Popcorn?

[Bologma!]

97 wins/year since 2000. Postseason every year. Results.

You're whining about style points. I don't recall seeing a spot on the scoreboard or in the standings that show how a manager gets his team somewhere -- all I see are numbers telling us where he got them.

And his .472 winning percentage managing other teams?

[4bronxbombers]

Are you kidding? This is nothing short of fantastic. Popcorn?

And a please.

[YASS]

Hmm...can't see this going anywhere good.

That's because you don't have any popcorn.

Here:


EDIT: Aw, crap. Lindabot beat me to it.

[Bologma!]

I don't believe this ever happened.

Let me guess, you didn't notice.

[4bronxbombers]

That's because you don't have any popcorn.

Here:

I need that popcorn smilie.

[TEPLimey]

Sorry TEP, this is Bologma's Joe Torre thread. We will discuss the other 1,914 and counting games that he tries to f up.

You can discuss those too, but they have no bearing on his stint with the Yankees.

I will be the first to tell you that I think Kemp should be playing everyday (especially over Juan Pierre), but as has been pointed out, there may be a reason (e.g., FO influence) why he isn't.

That said, I don't really care all that much what Torre does in LA. I just care that he was a good manager while he was in NY.

[TEPLimey]

Let me guess, you didn't notice.

Just because I don't recall it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you can point me to the game(s) you allege, then I can look into it.

[President Kennedy]

97 wins/year since 2000. Postseason every year. Results.

You're whining about style points. I don't recall seeing a spot on the scoreboard or in the standings that show how a manager gets his team somewhere -- all I see are numbers telling us where he got them.

Of course Joe Torre has a successful track record as a manager, he was given a series of the most talented teams the sport has. Those points being brought up by the poster in question aren't "style points." they're day in, day out decisions that can potentially affect the team or at the very least a player's development.

Running a team is not simply the sum of a W/L record.

[TEPLimey]

And his .472 winning percentage managing other teams?

And that winning percentage affects his stint with the Yankees... how?

Excepting therefrom his injury year, Randy Johnson averaged an ERA+ of 186 with Arizona prior to coming to the Yankees. Thus, he was a very good pitcher with the Yankees. Correct?

[Snatch Catch]

I can totally get behind the idea that Joe Torre was a great manager for the Yankees because he created continuity and calm in a space that was renowned previously for being the height of chaos. That his influence on the Yankees as a unifying and settling force prevented the Big Stein helter-skelter from killing the team and out-weighed any negative that he brought to the table.

However trying to defend Joe Torre as an astute talent evaluator or in-game tactician is the mark of someone who's not been watching the games. Or at least not watching them with objective eyes. He brought many positives to the organization, but not in these areas.

[Bologma!]

Just because I don't recall it doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you can point me to the game(s) you allege, then I can look into it.

I know it happened at least once and I'm sure more than that. But that leads to a bigger question, how do I go about documenting what he's done in the past? It's a huge undertaking to sit and go through game by game the bad decisions that he's made, although I'm sure it'd take nothing less for the TEPs of this world to understand, if ever. I don't want to just highlight the playoffs, or specific events that he repeated, like sitting Mo during tie games on the road.... hmmm....

[Bologma!]

And I just remembered him putting Melky in LF and Bernie in CF haha

This is gonna be tough.

[Bologma!]

And that winning percentage affects his stint with the Yankees... how?

Sorry, this is Bologma!'s thread about Joe Torre, not just the Yankees or Joe Torre's stint with the Yankees. If you want to make up your own rules make a "TEPLimey's Joe Torre Knew How To Manage a $200M Payroll But Not Much Else Thread"

[JDPNYY]

Who did Joe settle on to let him know that the Pitcher is going to bat in the upcoming inning?

[Bologma!]

Who did Joe settle on to let him know that the Pitcher is going to bat in the upcoming inning?

I'll have some really entertaining quotes about this subject from some Dodger forums.

Wait, am I allowed to post quotes from other forums?

[TEPLimey]

And I just remembered him putting Melky in LF and Bernie in CF haha

This is gonna be tough.

I remember that too, but IIRC that was at the outset of the season and Melky was an unproven commodity.

[TEPLimey]

I'll have some really entertaining quotes about this subject from some Dodger forums.

Wait, am I allowed to post quotes from other forums?

Its your thread. Do what you want.

[Bologma!]

I've read some of your posts in other threads but not enough to know you. What are your thoughts on him not using Mo in 03? Good? Bad? Awful? Might as well get this out of the way now.

[Bologma!]

I remember that too, but IIRC that was at the outset of the season and Melky was an unproven commodity.

Bernie was a proven commodity, he couldn't play any position, let alone CF.

[Bologma!]

This gem was placed in a dodgers forum

[False1]

Is this the official thread? And where is the Nome's I Love All Utility Players Except Betemit Official Discussion Thread?

[Sam18]

Go Bologma!

[Rich]

I would have went with:

Bologma's "Why Does Everyone Over 60 Love Joe Torre?" Thread

You're so vain, you probably thought this thread was about you.

[Bologma!]

You're so vain, you probably thought this thread was about you.

Sorry Rich

[TEPLimey]

I've read some of your posts in other threads but not enough to know you. What are your thoughts on him not using Mo in 03? Good? Bad? Awful? Might as well get this out of the way now.

A poor decision.

[YankeePride1967]

A poor decision.

Rob Neyer calls it "One of the 50 worst managerial decisions of all time". I thought he was being kind.

[Bologma!]

What was it, 28 days since Weaver had pitched?

[Joba's Rings]

Around that length of time. And what a lot of people forget or just overlook is that Weaver actually got through one inning unscathed.

Why Torre pressed his luck like that, bringing Weaver out for another inning, I guess we'll never know. Maybe he was just "playing the hot hand"...

[RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees]

Go Bologma!

I'd rather not.

[Pinstripedbass]

There's a real Torre obsession going on here. Did he also leave the barn door open and cause the Chicago fire?

[Joba's Rings]

Torre was Yankee manager for 12 seasons.

Was everyone just supposed to forget about him? Only talk about the good things that occurred during his tenure?

[Rich]

There's a real Torre obsession going on here. Did he also leave the barn door open and cause the Chicago fire?

I have always thought the psychological dynamic was more analogous to projection than obsession.

The way it often worked was that if someone offered a fact-based criticism of Torre's tactical moves, usually with regard to bullpen management (because almost all of us readily acknowledge that Torre was a superb off the field manager), some (although not all) of the Torre defenders would then engage in a personal attack of that person, alleging that the criticism was the result of hating Torre, rather than merely attempting to rebut the criticism by countering those facts.

It was actually kind of comical in a bizarre sort of way.

[Bologma!]

And what if we actually hate him?

[apolansk]

TO's got his popcorn ready.



This is going to be entertaining.

[RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees]

And what if we actually hate him?

Then you probably need help if you hate someone you don't know.

[Dynasties R Forever]

And his .472 winning percentage managing other teams?

Hey, they didn't have the same high payroll!

That was a newfound Torre skill for sure!

You can't argue with that one!

[Dynasties R Forever]

I can totally get behind the idea that Joe Torre was a great manager for the Yankees because he created continuity and calm in a space that was renowned previously for being the height of chaos. That his influence on the Yankees as a unifying and settling force prevented the Big Stein helter-skelter from killing the team and out-weighed any negative that he brought to the table.

However trying to defend Joe Torre as an astute talent evaluator or in-game tactician is the mark of someone who's not been watching the games. Or at least not watching them with objective eyes. He brought many positives to the organization, but not in these areas.

Also why he was greatly appreciated early on (besides the championships, heh) and after the Boss threat was over looked down on.

He WAS very valuable early on, later...not so much.

[teknetic]

He WAS very valuable early on, later...not so much.