The Official 2008 New England Patriots Thread [Merged]

[TheManKnownAsMecca]

Here.

[FoulkeLore]

Remember the scene in the Matrix where Neo is first downloaded into a computer program as Moebius gives him the grand tour and is explaining to him the realm in which he now exists? Then everything hits Neo at once. He wants out. The term "panic attack" is an understatement and he is thrust out of the program and falls to the floor. Reality, as he once knew it no longer exists and the unshakable notion that he is not in Kansas anymore and the shock of the finality of his new "Earth" sets in.

"He's gonna pop!" And then he does...pop?



Yeah, it's kind of like that.

[TheoShmeo]

Remember the scene in the Matrix where Neo is first downloaded into a computer program as Moebius gives him the grand tour and is explaining to him the realm in which he now exists? Then everything hits Neo at once. He wants out. The term "panic attack" is an understatement and he is thrust out of the program and falls to the floor. Reality, as he once knew it no longer exists and the unshakable notion that he is not in Kansas anymore and the shock of the finality of his new "Earth" sets in.

"He's gonna pop!" And then he does...pop?



Yeah, it's kind of like that.

I hear you FoulkeLore.

But then the movie ends, you walk out of the theater and realize that world is still pretty damned good.

For me, the after the movie sunshine comes down to the fact that if you told me on the day that Belichick was hired that in the following decade the Pats were going to, at the minimum, win three SBs, apprear in four SBs, appear in five AFC Championship games, lose one SB after going 18-0 and get ensnared in the SpyGate controversy (with the loss of a first round pick and the risk of further penalties; I'm aware of the fines but don't care about that), I'd take that deal all day long without blinking.

If anything, I'm a bigger Pats fan now than before this season.

[RhodyYanksFan]

Started by a Bills fan. Well done.

[nhyankeefan]

Spygate still won't die, Peter King on the latest rumors...

Getting a fair trial in this league right now is tough. You can't find 12 people in the league who don't have a strong opinion on this, and most of those opinions are very anti-Patriot. The consensus is there's too much smoke around the story for it to either be false or for it to go away. That's why it's so important for the league to get former New England video assistant Matt Walsh to talk as soon as possible, so this story, which has amazed top league officials with its legs, can be vetted for good, one way or the other.

Over the weekend, I spoke with former Rams coach Mike Martz about the allegation that the Patriots videotaped St. Louis' walk through practice the day before Super Bowl XXXVI. He says the Ram practice that day consisted of the offense running its red-zone plays at half speed. I hear that Martz and other Ram people are privately talking much tougher, and I think it's possible, if there is tape of the walk through, the Rams may press the league to have the outcome of the game overturned.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ine/index.html

[MTYankee23]

Spygate still won't die, Peter King on the latest rumors...



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ine/index.html

Wow, Peter King is great. He removed the line in his article about how the Rams offense bogged down inside the 20. Which is blatantly false. They only got inside the 30 twice in that game. And scored touchdowns both times.

[FoulkeLore]

Wow, Peter King is great. He removed the line in his article about how the Rams offense bogged down inside the 20. Which is blatantly false. They only got inside the 30 twice in that game. And scored touchdowns both times.

I believe his exact quote was that the Rams "struggled mightily inside the 20". They may have struggled mightily to get inside the 20 as they only did once but as you noted, they scored a TD. If there is a video of the Rams running a walkthrough of offensive red-zone plays, the point is moot. Will/Should a new fine or penalty be levied? Probably. Did it affect the outcome of the Superbowl? Nope.

[S2]

Wow, Peter King is great. He removed the line in his article about how the Rams offense bogged down inside the 20. Which is blatantly false. They only got inside the 30 twice in that game. And scored touchdowns both times.

Well, that didn't take long. This should be the 08 Spygate Thread because that is where it is headed. Hooray!

[MTYankee23]

Well, that didn't take long. This should be the 08 Spygate Thread because that is where it is headed. Hooray!

Haha, sorry, I had to respond when someone posted the PK article. I was furious about that because it was the 2nd time that a writer erroneously mentioned that the Rams struggled in the red zone, and the "taped walkthrough" would have had something to do with it. If I can look up the facts in between running programs at work, how can a journalist not do the same, that is, unless the facts ruin his good story. Its why I don't trust media members. It's not their job to spread truth, it's their job to increase readers.

Back to our regularly scheduled offseason. . .

[MTYankee23]

Sounds like their could be a near-complete overhaul of the secondary this offseason. Apparently the Patriots have parted ways with Eugene Wilson, likely to do the same with Randall G. and are unlikely to be the team that helps Asante "Get Rich to This".

Will be interesting to see who pops up as potential replacements back there? Who are the FAs at CB besides Ty Law?

Will they be able to trade down a little bit from #7 and get a guy like Talib, Jenkins, or Rodgers-Cromartie.

I'm guessing that Vernon Gholston and Chris Long don't make it past the Jets in terms of OLB help.

[S2]

Started by a Bills fan. Well done.

I know, right? You better go start a Giants thread before a Cardinals fan swoops in and starts one before you or any other Giants fan can.

[Reggie Smith]

Wow, Peter King is great. He removed the line in his article about how the Rams offense bogged down inside the 20. Which is blatantly false. They only got inside the 30 twice in that game. And scored touchdowns both times.

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/history...campaign=gsi_g

"The Rams responded by driving to the Patriots' 3. On fourth-and-goal, Warner scrambled, was tackled by Roman Phifer, and fumbled. Tebucky Jones picked up the ball and raced the length of the field for an apparent touchdown, but the play was negated by Willie McGinest's holding penalty.

Warner scored two plays later to trim the deficit to 17-10 with 9:31 left. The Patriots went three-and-out on their next two possessions, giving the Rams the ball on their 45-yard-line with 1:51 left."


I am not on the team that suggests they were undeserving of their win, but to say it was blatantly false is not accurate.

[MTYankee23]

http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/history...campaign=gsi_g

"The Rams responded by driving to the Patriots' 3. On fourth-and-goal, Warner scrambled, was tackled by Roman Phifer, and fumbled. Tebucky Jones picked up the ball and raced the length of the field for an apparent touchdown, but the play was negated by Willie McGinest's holding penalty.

Warner scored two plays later to trim the deficit to 17-10 with 9:31 left. The Patriots went three-and-out on their next two possessions, giving the Rams the ball on their 45-yard-line with 1:51 left."


I am not on the team that suggests they were undeserving of their win, but to say it was blatantly false is not accurate.

They weren't stopped once inside the 30. Both times they got inside the 30, they scored TD's. It really is blatantly false, the Patriots were the 6th or 7th best team in Red Zone Defense that year. So to call needing 6 plays (1 negated by penalty) to score a TD isn't struggling mightily, or even struggling at all. I'd consider settling for field goals, or not scoring at all, struggling. He just didn't bother to check his facts.

Not to mention, if they had scored on let's say 2 or 3 plays, wouldn't all that have done would have been to give the Patriots more time to set up for a field goal at the end?

[Reggie Smith]

They weren't stopped once inside the 30. Both times they got inside the 30, they scored TD's. It really is blatantly false, the Patriots were the 6th or 7th best team in Red Zone Defense that year. So to call needing 6 plays (1 negated by penalty) to score a TD isn't struggling mightily, or even struggling at all. I'd consider settling for field goals, or not scoring at all, struggling. He just didn't bother to check his facts.

Not to mention, if they had scored on let's say 2 or 3 plays, wouldn't all that have done would have been to give the Patriots more time to set up for a field goal at the end?

My point is that it sure sounded like the bogged down that one time they were there. Having to go to 4th and goal, fumbling, getting a questionable call (added by me for effect) sounds like they were bogging down inside the twenty. Either way, again, I do not think the Patriots did not deserve the win. King isn't the only one who said this, so I am curious how so many people remember it so incorrectly?

[S2]

I wouldn't call it a questionable penalty at all. Willie damn near Kobe'd Faulk.

[MTYankee23]

My point is that it sure sounded like the bogged down that one time they were there. Having to go to 4th and goal, fumbling, getting a questionable call (added by me for effect) sounds like they were bogging down inside the twenty. Either way, again, I do not think the Patriots did not deserve the win. King isn't the only one who said this, so I am curious how so many people remember it so incorrectly?

S2 is right, Willie absolutely mugged Faulk. In a normal game situation, the Rams kick a field goal, but late, they had to go for it on 4th. I wouldn't necesarily call it bogging down or struggling mightly.

There's lots of things in regard to history and especially sports history that people remember incorrectly. That's why the Hall of Fame in baseball is full of less than stellar players.

[Reggie Smith]

I wouldn't call it a questionable penalty at all. Willie damn near Kobe'd Faulk.

Figures. I don't remember the play at all!! I further emphasized my point if it was questionable!!!!

At this point, I am anticipating a lawyer to yell out "Objection - Argumentative!!"

Carry on, folks.....

[mentalgidget]

I wouldn't call it a questionable penalty at all. Willie damn near Kobe'd Faulk.

I think the call is questionable only because it was a play action to Faulk. I thought there was some leniency by officials with holding calls on play actions since it's deceptive and the defense thinks the back has the ball.

edit: look at play actions up the middle, the running back almost always gets wrapped up by a lineman or LB

[FoulkeLore]

But really, the point is, they scored when they entered the red zone.

[mentalgidget]

But really, the point is, they scored when they entered the red zone.

Indeed and...
1.) if the Pats had been spying on the Rams redzone plays, wouldn't you think Willie would have been prepared for a PA to Faluk and thus NOT hold him?
2.) If the pats had been spring on the Rams redzone plays, would that have made Warner more likely to fumble the ball?

[FoulkeLore]

My point is that it sure sounded like the bogged down that one time they were there.

Because they forced 4 downs? They scored 6. I don't know how that can be confused with "struggled mightily". They were 1-for-1 in the red zone. Again, they struggled getting in to the red zone but once there they were successful.

[FoulkeLore]

2.) If the pats had been spring on the Rams redzone plays, would that have made Warner more likely to fumble the ball?

IIRC the run was a called play (QB sneak) and not Warner scrambling to find an open man and then finding a lane/path to the EZ. But I'm not positive on that.

[mentalgidget]

IIRC the run was a called play (QB sneak) and not Warner scrambling to find an open man and then finding a lane/path to the EZ. But I'm not positive on that.

You talking about the fumble or the TD? I was referring to the fumble

[FoulkeLore]

You talking about the fumble or the TD? I was referring to the fumble

I was referring to the fumble but at this point my memory is a jumbled and I could be flat out wrong. I was insinuating that the alleged red zone video would have had nothing to do with forcing the fumble.

[mentalgidget]

I was referring to the fumble but at this point my memory is a jumbled and I could be flat out wrong. I was insinuating that the alleged red zone video would have had nothing to do with forcing the fumble.

That's exactly what i was saying too... ha!

[Reggie Smith]

Because they forced 4 downs? They scored 6. I don't know how that can be confused with "struggled mightily". They were 1-for-1 in the red zone. Again, they struggled getting in to the red zone but once there they were successful.

One one hand, you could say they did struggle since it went to fourth down and they eventually turned the ball over, albeit a penalty (which I can only assume at the time was considered a bad call by some ).

On the other hand, they scored their six points...what more could they ask for?

I never said they struggled mightily (I don't think, but too lazy to re-read). What my point is that it IS possible watching that video (if it even exists) caused the Rams a headache or two before they got their six.

Now, at the end of the day, I really don't care because I don't believe it mattered. However, maybe the Rams tried something, it didn't work because the Patriots snuffed it out with some backhanded knowledge? Maybe that prevented them from trying it later since it didn't work earlier. Maybe, with more time on the clock later on, they defended down the stretch instead of giving up so much room. Maybe even John Madden wouldn't have been advocating taking a knee. Or, maybe, I'm full of sh** and in an argumentative mood. All are possible.......

[FoulkeLore]

One one hand, you could say they did struggle since it went to fourth down and they eventually turned the ball over, albeit a penalty (which I can only assume at the time was considered a bad call by some ).

On the other hand, they scored their six points...what more could they ask for?

I never said they struggled mightily (I don't think, but too lazy to re-read). What my point is that it IS possible watching that video (if it even exists) caused the Rams a headache or two before they got their six.

Now, at the end of the day, I really don't care because I don't believe it mattered. However, maybe the Rams tried something, it didn't work because the Patriots snuffed it out with some backhanded knowledge? Maybe that prevented them from trying it later since it didn't work earlier. Maybe, with more time on the clock later on, they defended down the stretch instead of giving up so much room. Maybe even John Madden wouldn't have been advocating taking a knee. Or, maybe, I'm full of sh** and in an argumentative mood. All are possible.......

I agree. I'm sure if we pulled apart the minutia of those 5 or 6 plays there very well could have been individual matchups exploited that NE may have been better prepared for had they taped the walkthrough and utilized it.

My original disagreement is really with King who stated that the Rams, "struggled mightily inside the 20". That was just lazy journalism. I sent him an e-mail saying as much so I have a right to complain!

As for the play, I don't remember my initial reaction but I wasn't happy but once the replay was shown there really wasn't an argument to be made. Willie McGinest literally tackled Marshall Faulk.

P.S. I disagree that you are in an argumentative mood.

[FoulkeLore]

That's exactly what i was saying too... ha!

Yeah, I'm probably pretty sure I was getting lost in my own logic back there.

[Reggie Smith]

I
My original disagreement is really with King who stated that the Rams, "struggled mightily inside the 20". That was just lazy journalism. I sent him an e-mail saying as much so I have a right to complain!

I was suprised when I read it from him, too. I thought that had been debunked, but I read one report saying they were never in the Red Zone, and another saying this affecting they were. When King wrote that, it did catch me off guard. I tried to find a drive chart earlier and struck out.

[TheoShmeo]

I was suprised when I read it from him, too. I thought that had been debunked, but I read one report saying they were never in the Red Zone, and another saying this affecting they were. When King wrote that, it did catch me off guard. I tried to find a drive chart earlier and struck out.

If I'm not mistaken, King's partner in SpyGate hysteria, Gregg Easterbrook, originally wrote that the Rams struggled in the end zone, and King probably just ripped that off without thinking about it. Given that he changed the story within a few hours of printing it, I'm guessing that someone e-mailed him that he was embarassing himself.

With respect to the semantic debate, sign me up for the Pats having to go to fourth down every time and scoring six points every time they get to the red zone in 2008. I could get used to such struggles.

[Reggie Smith]

Hmmm, I did not notice that King edited out that reference. Kind of chicken sh** if you ask me....

[ojo]

no, chickensh*t is videotaping another team's practice.

this is what you would call 'turn-about is fair play'.

[FoulkeLore]

I was suprised when I read it from him, too. I thought that had been debunked, but I read one report saying they were never in the Red Zone, and another saying this affecting they were. When King wrote that, it did catch me off guard. I tried to find a drive chart earlier and struck out.

Trust me on this. I have the 3 Games to Glory DVD. They had two TD scoring drives. In the first drive they entered the red zone for the first time all game about midway through the 3rd quarter.. The second TD was on a coverage mistake and nifty shift and horrible tackle pursuit of Ricky "Tonigh, a dynasty is born" Proehl. I think it went for 34 yards.

[FoulkeLore]

no, chickensh*t is videotaping another team's practice.
.

Well, who's done that?

[FoulkeLore]

I'm guessing that someone e-mailed him that he was embarassing himself.

(raises hand)

[Reggie Smith]

Trust me on this. I have the 3 Games to Glory DVD. They had two TD scoring drives. In the first drive they entered the red zone for the first time all game about midway through the 3rd quarter.. The second TD was on a coverage mistake and nifty shift and horrible tackel pursuit of Ricky "Tonigh, a dynasty is born" Proehl. I think it went for 34 yards.

Oh, I will definately defer. I sat in my house with my brother (fellow Steelers fan) and wife (now bandwagon Patriots fan ) getting loaded and lamenting how much crap we were going to get the next day....

[TheoShmeo]

no, chickensh*t is videotaping another team's practice.

this is what you would call 'turn-about is fair play'.

If Peter King was another team taping the pats, now that might be turnabout.

Deleting a wrong reference without telling anyone you've done it after an article has already appeared on the SI.com website is, indeed, chickensh*t.

[Reggie Smith]

If Peter King was another team taping the pats, now that might be turnabout.

Deleting a wrong reference without telling anyone you've done it after an article has already appeared on the SI.com website is, indeed, chickensh*t.

Especially when that was the basis of his whole argument!

[ojo]

Well, who's done that?

wouldn't know. i'm only noting the smoke signals that are eminating from eastern mass..

[TheoShmeo]

Especially when that was the basis of his whole argument!

Never underestimate the desire of some to inject a SpyGate non-sequitir.

[S2]

no, chickensh*t is videotaping another team's practice.

this is what you would call 'turn-about is fair play'.

Then there is a lot of chickensh*tting going on in the NFL.

I did it with video and so did a lot of other teams in the league,” Johnson said on September 28. “Just to make sure that you could study it and take your time, because you’re going to play the other team the second time around. But a lot of coaches did it, this was commonplace.”

http://beta.profootballtalk.com/2008...s-nothing-new/

[FoulkeLore]

wouldn't know. i'm only noting the smoke signals that are eminating from eastern mass..

And labeling it in a presumptive manner. Mama always told me to talk less about the things of which I have little knowledge.

[FoulkeLore]

Oh, I will definately defer. I sat in my house with my brother (fellow Steelers fan) and wife (now bandwagon Patriots fan ) getting loaded and lamenting how much crap we were going to get the next day....

Understandable. I'm still reeling after this last loss. Builds character I suppose but I liked who I was before!

[FoulkeLore]

Then there is a lot of chickensh*tting going on in the NFL.
http://beta.profootballtalk.com/2008...s-nothing-new/

In the interest of avoiding any future circular debate, Jimmy Johnson is referring to taping opposing Defensive Coordinator's signals, not practices. Though this alleged taping is not the first incident of teams allegedly taping opposing teams' practices.

On it goes.

[MTYankee23]

Trust me on this. I have the 3 Games to Glory DVD. They had two TD scoring drives. In the first drive they entered the red zone for the first time all game about midway through the 3rd quarter.. The second TD was on a coverage mistake and nifty shift and horrible tackle pursuit of Ricky "Tonigh, a dynasty is born" Proehl. I think it went for 34 yards.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...&override=true

I know someone said they were looking for the drive chart before.

The Rams ran their first play from inside the Patriots 30 in Super Bowl 36 at 11:21 of the 4th Quarter.

Proehl's TD was scored from the 26. So both times the Rams got past the 30 they scored TD's.

[FoulkeLore]

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playby...&override=true

I know someone said they were looking for the drive chart before.

The Rams ran their first play from inside the Patriots 30 in Super Bowl 36 at 11:21 of the 4th Quarter.

Proehl's TD was scored from the 26. So both times the Rams got past the 30 they scored TD's.

Alright, so I was off on my time in the game. The first time they ran a red-zone play was in the 4th quarter.

The red zone, for clarification purposes, starts at the 20. Any plays ran from the 26 are not considered 'red zone conversions'.

[MTYankee23]

Alright, so I was off on my time in the game. The first time they ran a red-zone play was in the 4th quarter.

The red zone, for clarification purposes, starts at the 20. Any plays ran from the 26 are not considered 'red zone conversions'.

I wasn't really trying to correct you, I was more trying to illustrate the point that the Rams offense was actually bogging down before they even got to the Patriots 30, never mind the red zone. This was almost undoubtedly due to the fact that they stubbornly refused to run the ball against Dime and Quarter defensive packages (6 and 7 DBs).

[FoulkeLore]

I wasn't really trying to correct you, I was more trying to illustrate the point that the Rams offense was actually bogging down before they even got to the Patriots 30, never mind the red zone. This was almost undoubtedly due to the fact that they stubbornly refused to run the ball against Dime and Quarter defensive packages (6 and 7 DBs).

Oh I know. I didn't mean to make it sound like I felt you were. That was more my own standard of trying to stick with facts so I corrected myself. I was also trying to stay on the topic of the alleged Walsh tape which as Rams officials noted, was a recording of offensive red zone plays.

Yeah, the stubborness and arrogance of Mike Martz was as much a part of their loss and downfall as anything.

[S2]

In the interest of avoiding any future circular debate, Jimmy Johnson is referring to taping opposing Defensive Coordinator's signals, not practices. Though this alleged taping is not the first incident of teams allegedly taping opposing teams' practices.

On it goes.

The article I linked to talks about taping practices by Denver. I just like Jimmy's quote.

What I should have quoted was AI's rant about practice. Too late.

[FoulkeLore]

The article I linked to talks about taping practices by Denver. I just like Jimmy's quote.

What I should have quoted was AI's rant about practice. Too late.

None of this matters...