Jeter must not be allowed to play shortstop

[Hitman23]

The Vizquel suggestion was obvioulsy crap but the vitriol being spewed at the OP is uncalled for. It's legitimate to suggest that when you have the worst fielding SS in baseball, that he be moved to a position where he's less of a defensive liability than the middle infield.

We go over it every year and everyone knows it won't happen because the organization will allow him to keep his "Captain SS" role ad infinitum despite it probably not being best for the team. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed on a message board where we talk about ways to improve the club.

fair enough.... but have you witnessed the vicious statements that almost always come out of it split the board in half. Then you have the perception of people hating him, and others thinking he is god. It's impossible to take a middle ground. I just think it's pointless. but that's just me.

[cid]

Just because you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from them, doesn't make them crap.

no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".

here's the definition of the "stat" in question:

Range Factor (commonly abbreviated RF) is a baseball statistic developed by Bill James. It is calculated by dividing putouts and assists by number of innings or games played at a given defense position. The statistic is premised on the notion that the total number of outs that a player participates in is more relevant in evaluating his defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances as calculated by the conventional statistic fielding percentage.

this "stat" says you're a better player if you get more chances and make the plays. now, it's completely possible that the "best defensive shortstop" based on this stat got a majority of his putouts and assists on routine plays that any major leaguer would make. it has absolutely no bearing on his "range". i don't see how this is even a discussion. it's so clearly a ridiculous "stat".

i know this isn't the only thing that you guys are basing it on, there's also this "zone rating" which is just as ridiculous to me. you CANNOT say someone should get to a ball. baseball is not a discrete sport with absolute positions and lines for balls to travel. if it were, then you'd have an argument.

if your coach shades you to the left a step for a particular hitter, that can considerably affect your ability to get a ball that is in your "zone". does a coach's positioning of a player make him a worse defensive player?

i seriously doubt that people that buy into this crap ever actually played baseball. they seem just like "stat junkies" that have no actual bearing on the game.

[Game4Tino]

no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".

here's the definition of the "stat" in question:



this "stat" says you're a better player if you get more chances and make the plays. now, it's completely possible that the "best defensive shortstop" based on this stat got a majority of his putouts and assists on routine plays that any major leaguer would make. it has absolutely no bearing on his "range". i don't see how this is even a discussion. it's so clearly a ridiculous "stat".

i know this isn't the only thing that you guys are basing it on, there's also this "zone rating" which is just as ridiculous to me. you CANNOT say someone should get to a ball. baseball is not a discrete sport with absolute positions and lines for balls to travel. if it were, then you'd have an argument.

I agree with that stat being bunk, but...

If you watch the Yankees everyday, which I am sure most of us do, you can see evidence of Jeter having limited range. He fields nothing hit to his left and last year he wasn't moving to his right either, granted that may have been due to nagging injuries. He also made a ton of bad throws this season, not sure what that was about. I think a new SS would make a big difference, but again it's not happening.

[yanksphan]

no, i understand the "stat" completely. and it's total garbage. there's absolutely no way to say that someone "should" get to a ball. that would require all balls to be hit in discrete places and players always playing in the exact same spot. it's just not how the game is played and there's no way to indicate it with a "stat".

I never said you didn't understand the stat - although I'm beginning to wonder. I said you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from it which is evident by your continual harping on the "should get to a ball" comment.

Scorekeepers decided who should get to a ball every game. That's how errors are distributed, no?

Range Factor has absolutely nothing to do with what a player 'should' do. It has everything to do with what he actually did do.

RF= (Putouts + Assists)/Innings

[Yankeesfan811]

How many 1B do we plan to have?

the other 17 players on the roster......

[effdamets]

I never said you didn't understand the stat - although I'm beginning to wonder. I said you don't understand how to draw a conclusion from it which is evident by your continual harping on the "should get to a ball" comment.

Scorekeepers decided who should get to a ball every game. That's how errors are distributed, no?

Range Factor has absolutely nothing to do with what a player 'should' do. It has everything to do with what he actually did do.

RF= (Putouts + Assists)/Innings

No - this is not how errors are determined. Errors are determined by the ability to make a play on a ball that the fielder has already gotten to.

My arguement is, what is good range? 4 steps to each side, 5 steps, 6? I think bad pitching has a factor in infielder ranges (and outfield). When the batters are hitting aspirins past fielders, there is now way you can expect a fielder to get to them. Seems everyone has a pretty decent range when batter are hitting fisters on the ground against Rivera.

I know what everyone is talking about when they mention Tulowitski. He seemed to get to all those balls hit up the middle during the playoffs... But the infield grass in at Coors field is cut higher than a cornfield! There are too many "opinions" in what goes into determining these fielding metrics in order for me to take them as too serious.

[JohnnyDamonfan]

the other 17 players on the roster......

Then what 14 people could be put in the DH spot?

[yanksphan]

No - this is not how errors are determined. Errors are determined by the ability to make a play on a ball that the fielder has already gotten to.

My arguement is, what is good range? 4 steps to each side, 5 steps, 6? I think bad pitching has a factor in infielder ranges (and outfield). When the batters are hitting aspirins past fielders, there is now way you can expect a fielder to get to them. Seems everyone has a pretty decent range when batter are hitting fisters on the ground against Rivera.

I know what everyone is talking about when they mention Tulowitski. He seemed to get to all those balls hit up the middle during the playoffs... But the infield grass in at Coors field is cut higher than a cornfield! There are too many "opinions" in what goes into determining these fielding metrics in order for me to take them as too serious.

You are correct about the errors thing. I was giving a more simplistic answer given the original poster's difficulty understanding the statistic.

I agree that RF isn't the tell all stat. That's quite obvious. Just like RBI often depends on the other 8 player's ability to get on base. There are outside factors that can skew the statistic.

I do think the statistic holds some value however when making a judgment on a player's overall body of work. A slice of the pie if you will.

[WashingtonYankee]

Excuse me? Jeter at first base? Ha!

[bigwampum]

If Jeter + new SS > Jeter + 3B/1B, then I'd be all for it. But it is much harder to find production out of shortstop then pretty much every position but catcher. So until we have a real good option for a replacement SS, it doesn't make sense to move Jetes, regardless of his defensive... uh, shortcomings.

[wang+cano=future]

Excuse me? Jeter at first base? Ha!

The word Ha! is dead to me....

[Dr. Gonzo]

stick jeter at third, and get a shortstop

that is if a SS replacement is better then a 3b solution

[LeapsNbounds]

Yes, this thread contains logical information that directly contradicts all True Yankee(tm) Logic and Proper Doctrine.

Why the mere though of Derek Jeter not at SS is heresy. Blaspheme in the extreme!

By all means lock this thread, because if the Yanks don't have a shortstop with the range of a statue, by God they are not Yankees at all!!!



p.s. And yes, I know this topic has been done to death. And yes, the Yankee PR department will probably never let Jeter move. But damn it gets frustrating when you watch other team's shortstops.

The arguements are acurate, but we already acquired a GG caliber SS and promptly moved him to 3B.

This issue has been beaten so far into the ground around here that I think everyone at some level agrees.

The FO just won't make it happen so it is silly to talk about.

[YankeesAce4Life]

Jeter would make a great CF. He has a ton of speed and a good arm. Just watching him making those over the shoulder catches makes me want him in CF. This would never happen. Wouldn't it be nice to have Jeter's name as CF with the other legendary Yankee CF's.

[ojo]

if your coach shades you to the left a step for a particular hitter, that can considerably affect your ability to get a ball that is in your "zone". does a coach's positioning of a player make him a worse defensive player?

i seriously doubt that people that buy into this crap ever actually played baseball. they seem just like "stat junkies" that have no actual bearing on the game.

unless torre's the only manager to engage in position/situational alignment, then your argument simply holds no merit at all.

mountains of isolated data, cid. mountains of it suggests jeter gets to the least # of balls than any other SS.

that drives up ERAs. that prolongs innings.

that's just fact.

[ojo]

The arguements are acurate, but we already acquired a GG caliber SS and promptly moved him to 3B.

This issue has been beaten so far into the ground around here that I think everyone at some level agrees.

The FO just won't make it happen so it is silly to talk about.

just because management won't remove the elephant in the room, doesn't mean the elephant shouldn't be addressed. particularly when he lets his lunch loose on the floor.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

Ok. Night, night Willeedog - I just can't handle your knowledge for another minute.

Don't forget to give mommy a kiss before you go off to sleep, mmmmkay? You've got PE and band practice tomorrow!

Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this.

[SoCal Pinstriper]

We can, and will I'm sure dredge this topic up again. Enough for this round