Was the Yankee offer to Torre Fair?

[wileedog]

But you either have faith in your manager or you don't, tying the contract to the incentives is not fair to the players or the manager because now that is going to be the conversation hanging over the team all season long.

I couldn't diasgree more.

I might agree a little if he was given a $500,000 base salary, and still needed all of those incentives to make his requred unGodly sum of $8M.

But his BASE salary was still $1.5M higher than the next manager. He didn't need the incentives to still be the highest paid in the league.

Everyone's salary should be tied to their performance, I have no idea why this would be such a distraction. Do you know why they call it a 'contract year' and players seem to always have career best years in them?

[yankeesAZ]

I couldn't diasgree more.

I might agree a little if he was given a $500,000 base salary, and still needed all of those incentives to make his requred unGodly sum of $8M.

But his BASE salary was still $1.5M higher than the next manager. He didn't need the incentives to still be the highest paid in the league.

Everyone's salary should be tied to their performance, I have no idea why this would be such a distraction. Do you know why they call it a 'contract year' and players seem to always have career best years in them?

So based on Joe Torre's recent post season performance he was offered less. So I guess we'll be lowering A-Rod's salary too as his postseason performances here are far worse than Torre's.

Sorry, but this whole "we really wanted Joe to stay" from Yankee management while decreasing his salary and offering one year is a slap in face to Yankee fans.

If they had just fired him immediately, while I still may have not liked that, I could respect that. But selling us this pile of crap is a joke.

[wileedog]

So based on Joe Torre's recent post season performance he was offered less. So I guess we'll be lowering A-Rod's salary too as his postseason performances here are far worse than Torre's.

Except we would have failed to make the postseason completely this year if it weren't for A-Rod. Plus his contract is not up, is it?

Not to mention, even if it was there would be other teams bidding for his services.

Do you think anyone is going to offer Joe 3 years/$24M now?

Sorry, but this whole "we really wanted Joe to stay" from Yankee management while decreasing his salary and offering one year is a slap in face to Yankee fans.

If they had just fired him immediately, while I still may have not liked that, I could respect that. But selling us this pile of crap is a joke.

Again, according to Kay a lot of the Yankee Brass wanted and expected Joe to take the deal, but there was simply no way to give a raise to a guy who had the team he did and has failed so consistently the last 4 years. That sends a message to everyone, including the players, that subpar performance is acceptable and we will continue to pay you anyway.

Nor did they want to commit to 2 years for the same reason, plus they want Mattingly in place for the new stadium is my guess.

You may call it insulting, but that is because you are emotionally invested in Torre. I call it someone finally getting a hold of their checkbook and emotions.

[PJMPirate]

Wow... 128 to 128

[yankeesAZ]

Except we would have failed to make the postseason completely this year if it weren't for A-Rod. Plus his contract is not up, is it?

Not to mention, even if it was there would be other teams bidding for his services.

Do you think anyone is going to offer Joe 3 years/$24M now?

IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.

As for A-Rod, his contract is not up yet, but if the Yanks try to lowball him he will be gone.

[4degrees]

Ultimately, it came down to what the Yankee management wanted. They were not comfortable with giving Joe a raise or higher salary. During the last contract negotiations, Joe had leverage and he wasn't shy using it to get a big raise. Salaries correct themselves.

They were not comfortable having him stay more than a year unless he was successful. Contracts are binding; length of term matters.

So these were the terms the team was comfortable with. Can't blame them for that.

Even Joe on the plane said he wasn't sure if he would take it or not. He probably thought that this was point 1 on a negotiation.

That's where you could fault the Yankees. Taking the attitude of take or leave it is not the way you run a relationship, business or otherwise.

And where is the loyalty in the other direction? Joe was doing Angel games (and the Angels stunk) when we pulled him off the scrap heap.


A break up of a 12 year relationship is hard - there is no way it can be amicable and people will always assess some degree of the blame on someone.

The bigger issue is who is steering the ship? Is Cash in charge? Are we back to 2005 and Wright is on the way? That should be a bigger cocnern for Yankee fans.

[PJMPirate]

You're right though, its about ego. Torre - and obviously many other people here, doesn't believe he has failed the past 7 years or the past 4 in particular. Its obvious he thinks what he and his players did 96-00 warrants lifetime employment, and utmost faith from management.

Fixed it for you.

[23DonnieBaseball23]

Hard to see Yanks brass worried about financial restraint when they paid Carl Pavano $10 million for 11 innings this season.

If we're moving to a performance based model, why does Randy Levine still have a job? We ain't won $hit since he's been on board.

[Bugg]

IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.

.

So he'd be managing at 70/71. When would it have been appropriate to ask St. Joe to leave his the office-72?75?When? It keeps coming back to Torre wanting this job for life, and it was never going to end well.

The offer was essentially $16 million for 2 years,s till way out of line with the market.

[wileedog]

IMO, I think Joe would have taken a 3-year deal (maybe even 2) at $5M despite what he said about taking a pay cut.

If he decides to take another job, my guess is he will be offered 3/$12.

As for A-Rod, his contract is not up yet, but if the Yanks try to lowball him he will be gone.

Because again, there will be someone willing to pay him more.

It makes no sense to bid against ourselves and pay Torre $8M or more per year just because we were dumb enough to do it once before. If he looks at it as a pay cut, so be it. He has won nothing since the last contract extension that warrants a raise or the same completely out of whack salary.

Torre obsviosly doesn't see it that way. So be it. I would rather the Yankees be realistic and pay value then give in to the demands of someone sitting on his record of 7 years ago.

[Bloodshot]

My take -- the cash / incentives were fine .. but only offering one year was a problem.

I actually think he may have accepted a 2-year deal with the same terms. Only one year meant he had to go through this same stuff again next year.

[bomber999]

I know that there have been many people who have declared the offer fair, based on league comparisons of manager's salaries and what they have deemed several "unsuccessful" seasons in a row because we didn't get to the World Series. It's not outrageous to think along these lines. However, I think that one cannot accurately appraise this situation thinking about it this way. Joe Torre's longevity, his unprecedented success, and managing the Yankees made this situation unique. No other manager in baseball can claim 4 WS, 6 pennants, and 12/12 in making the playoffs, managing in the pressure cooker of NY, no less. No other manager could claim making the playoffs two years in a row. Taking the exact number of dollars out of the equation, if you had that track record, would you accept having to take a pay cut and being insulted by the insertion of "incentives", as if you weren't really motivated to win? Would you accept the offer, knowing that you would be the ultimate lame duck, vulnerable to being fired at the first 3 game losing streak? Would you put yourself, your family, and your players through that?

I didn't think so.

Fair would have been for the Yankees to offer Torre a 2-year deal at the same money. Barring this, fair would have been to tell Torre, up front, that they were moving in a new direction, rather than engaging in this insulting, transparent, sleazy effort to make it look like they wanted Torre back and that he was the one who walked out. They would have taken an initial PR hit due to Joe's popularity, but that would have been up-front and respectful, and the team would be moving forward in a positive way and with both Joe's and their dignity intact. Instead, they have ensured themselves of the derision of all of baseball and much of their own fan base, and made Joe even more beloved than ever.

How is it possible in New York that Isiah Thomas, who has done nothing but continue to run the Knicks into the ground, has one playoff appearance (and no wins) to show for his tenure as GM/coach despite having the highest payroll in the NBA by far, is despised by many in the league, by his own comments has revealed himself to be a mysogynist and a racist (a real racist, by the way, Mr. Sheffield and Lofton), and just cost the Knicks north of $16 million by virtue of being found liable for sexual harassment of a female employee (with more cases waiting in the wings potentially) has his job (and seemingly endless job security) and Torre, a true winner and a truly great human being, is unemployed? What a world. As angry as I am at the Yankees FO at this time, I am immensely grateful that that moron Jimmy Dolan doesn't have his grimy mitts on the Bombers.

[YankeeSass]

My 2 cents:

For what it's worth I believe that Joe should have been let go after the 2006
ALDS. Maybe even afer 2004.

But, that said,

this contract offer was the definition of disingenuous.

The F.O. wanted him gone and, under the assumption that they could avoid player/fan/media backlash, they made him an offer they knew he wouldn't accept. The entire process was a farce. They (Levine et al) would have been better served to have simply said something to the effect of 'moving in a different direction. Thanks for 12 great years but it is time for a change.'
IMO, that would have been the decent course of action... That might have been difficult for some of us to accept (not me) but at least it would have been honest and a clean break .... but to now try to spin Joe's refusal into a "we are stunned" statement reeks of trying to put a band aid on this whole debacle now turned into a public relations disaster. About as credible as that scene in "Casablanca' where Claude Raines says something to the effect of "I'm shocked. Shocked! to find gambling is going on in here!"


Look, nothing lasts forever and his tenure had to come to an end sometime and I hope that Joe Giardi is hired .... but I think it's quite possible that the team will be decimated and we wont make the PS next year. (I really hope I'm wrong about this) Whoever is picked to replace Torre will have some big shoes to fill and just watch that person get fired when we finish in 3rd place behind the Blue Jays!

I shudder to contemplate the ramifications of this move. Not so much that Joe is gone but rather the way in which his departure was contrived.

And those of you who really think that the contract offer to Joe was genuinely well done by the F.O., that his refusal paints him as small-minded and petulant, well, nothing anyone can say will ever convince you otherwise.

But it's done. Bridges have been unnecessarily burned and it's time for The Yankees and us to move on and hope like hell that the lunatics are not running the asylum.

[Retire21]

I hadn't talked to my Dad (big Yankee fan) until this morning about the press conference, but he thought Joe Torre came off as a jerk. This was a bit of a different opinion on the event as we've been inundated with media columns/stories about how Joe was mistreated. Dad was wondering who the hell Joe thought he was saying he was "insulted" by a 1-year, $5 million offer with incentives he likely would have achieved anyway, when he's 4-13 over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. "What the hell did he expect them to offer?" Dad wondered aloud, "And what's with the comment that he's not going back to Yankee Stadium? Did the Yankees not do enough for him? He made a boatload of money and is going to go to the HOF as a Yankee and suddenly he's calling press conferences throwing them under the bus?" Good 'ol Dad. And I can see his point.

I was just thinking about how Joe Torre's fate could/should have ended a lot sooner.

When George Steinbrenner came to Spring Training in 2004, Joe had one year left on his contract after arguably mismanaging the 2003 World Series in Game 4 & 5. After being at Joe's throat throughout the 2003 season, George was now in a good mood. The Yankees had just completed a blockbuster trade for Alex Rodriguez, George had personally signed Gary Sheffield (and was proud of it), and he was surprisingly ready to offer Joe a contract extension after an extremely acrimonious 2003 season where they argued more than ever before. Joe got the 3 years.

If Joe Torre's Yankees blow a 3-0 lead to the Red Sox without Joe having the security of a contract, he's probably gone at the end of 2004. Perhaps he manages differently in that series without the security of a contract. Instead, he had a $19.5 million contract for 3 seasons which made him pretty much untouchable from a firing standpoint due to the money owed. In hindsight, George should have characteristically allowed Joe to play out his existing contract before offering the extension in the spring of 2004. It should have happened sooner.

[Yankees1962]

I hadn't talked to my Dad (big Yankee fan) until this morning about the press conference, but he thought Joe Torre came off as a jerk. This was a bit of a different opinion on the event as we've been inundated with media columns/stories about how Joe was mistreated. Dad was wondering who the hell Joe thought he was saying he was "insulted" by a 1-year, $5 million offer with incentives he likely would have achieved anyway, when he's 4-13 over the past 4 seasons in the playoffs. "What the hell did he expect them to offer?" Dad wondered aloud, "And what's with the comment that he's not going back to Yankee Stadium? Did the Yankees not do enough for him? He made a boatload of money and is going to go to the HOF as a Yankee and suddenly he's calling press conferences throwing them under the bus?" Good 'ol Dad. And I can see his point.

I was just thinking about how Joe Torre's fate could/should have ended a lot sooner.

When George Steinbrenner came to Spring Training in 2004, Joe had one year left on his contract after arguably mismanaging the 2003 World Series in Game 4 & 5. After being at Joe's throat throughout the 2003 season, George was now in a good mood. The Yankees had just completed a blockbuster trade for Alex Rodriguez, George had personally signed Gary Sheffield (and was proud of it), and he was surprisingly ready to offer Joe a contract extension after an extremely acrimonious 2003 season where they argued more than ever before. Joe got the 3 years.

If Joe Torre's Yankees blow a 3-0 lead to the Red Sox without Joe having the security of a contract, he's probably gone at the end of 2004. Perhaps he manages differently in that series without the security of a contract. Instead, he had a $19.5 million contract for 3 seasons which made him pretty much untouchable from a firing standpoint due to the money owed. In hindsight, George should have characteristically allowed Joe to play out his existing contract before offering the extension in the spring of 2004. It should have happened sooner.

Torre is getting lambasted by some because his contract is just another example of the high level of money being paid in sports today. Some of the average Joe's are upset by that and anytime a sports personality turns down a contract offer that is considered a lot of money by most people, it will cause some of us to react negatively to them turning it down.

Don't worry, Joe Torre isn't around any longer to take Steinbrenner's money after failing to win the WS again. That onus will be placed on the next manager(s).

[HerbieLee20]

I voted fair. Think for a moment of the unimaginable backlash had the Yankees, prompt and swift, gone through with what many had been predicting anyway and just said: "Thanks for everything, we love you, but goodbye Joe. Time for a change".

Imagine if they'd not even pretended to make an effort in Torre's case, no matter how ill-contrived it appeared. It was a no-win situation, and the Yanks chose another script, to avoid just dropping the axe.

Still think that Torre 2000 would have been going Pinella on the umps in Cleveland with the insects. I really couldn't believe he didn't do so. No matter how classy and great Joe is, things appeared more complacent nontheless, and it was time for a change. Perhaps Brass detected players in a "comfort zone", as opposed to battle zone?

Read The Post today declaring: Bitter Joe Bashes Yanks. The media is inflaming already passionate emotions, and loyalty, regarding Joe.
It may be comparing apples to oranges, but do wonder how fans felt with Yogi? Joe received much better treatment, no matter how the media wishes to portray the Torre saga. They couldn't just drop the axe with Joe. A totally no-win situation with 24-7 news, and intricate details of everything imaginable exposed.
The Yankees had been blessed with a great manager for an even greater franchise. But maybe things really did become complacent? Teams change managers. Can't fire the players.

Don't lose faith over this, though. Those guys will come back and play their hearts out next season because they're Yankees, not because of who their manager is.

[cyhughes22]

I voted fair. Think for a moment of the unimaginable backlash had the Yankees, prompt and swift, gone through with what many had been predicting anyway and just said: "Thanks for everything, we love you, but goodbye Joe. Time for a change".

Imagine if they'd not even pretended to make an effort in Torre's case, no matter how ill-contrived it appeared. It was a no-win situation, and the Yanks chose another script, to avoid just dropping the axe.

Still think that Torre 2000 would have been going Pinella on the umps in Cleveland with the insects. I really couldn't believe he didn't do so. No matter how classy and great Joe is, things appeared more complacent nontheless, and it was time for a change. Perhaps Brass detected players in a "comfort zone", as opposed to battle zone?

Read The Post today declaring: Bitter Joe Bashes Yanks. The media is inflaming already passionate emotions, and loyalty, regarding Joe.
It may be comparing apples to oranges, but do wonder how fans felt with Yogi? Joe received much better treatment, no matter how the media wishes to portray the Torre saga. They couldn't just drop the axe with Joe. A totally no-win situation with 24-7 news, and intricate details of everything imaginable exposed.
The Yankees had been blessed with a great manager for an even greater franchise. But maybe things really did become complacent? Teams change managers. Can't fire the players.

Don't lose faith over this, though. Those guys will come back and play their hearts out next season because they're Yankees, not because of who their manager is.

You can respect an organization that's up front and honest with it's employees and will notify them of a change of direction to their face. I don't think you can respect an organization that drags a process out in order to try and trick the media and fanbase into believing the situation to be something it isn't. They insulted Joe Torre's dignity and the intelligence of Yankee fans everywhere, including myself and you. A liar is a liar and it seems like this organization is full of them these days.

[Taylor]

I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.

Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.

$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.

I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.

I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).

for joe to say the offer was an insult was ridiculous.....he hasn't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs for 3 years, he batted arod 8th, he benched sheffield, and he did a horrible job managing the bullpen. He did deserve a paycut when you take in what he accomplished recently and compared it to what he accomplished before his last contract. His productivity declined so his pay appropriately declined.....he was still more then taken care of with 5M and the possibility of 8M. Best job in baseball, I'd do it for free

[TheBamTino24]

I posted in another thread, but I'll finish off my thoughts on this here:

The Yankees' brass did not want Joe Torre back. Now, that's their right, I'm not debating that. And after 12 very successful seasons, both parties have profited beyond their wildest dreams. But the Yankees wanted to be in a position of saving face publically. To have some segment of the public on their side, and they achieved that.

So they crafted the most perfect one-sided contract they possibly could. And given Randy Levine's history in labor negotiations and politics, they staged this very well. It's a contract that could be taught in labor relations classes, lol.

1. It was a win/win for the Yankees. They get Torre on "lameduck" status for 2008 even if he accepted. And it costs them $2.5M less, while they can still cling to the "highest paid manager" point without debate.

2. Then, even if Torre accepted and won the World Series, the incentives only bring the total to $8M. So they pay just $500K more from 2007 AND win the World Series.

3. Torre wins the 2008 World Series and his 2009 option kicks in. Management knows he should get another year after an '08 ring, and it works well to open the new stadium. But here's the kicker: 2009 is another "lameduck" year. He's on the ropes again.

Perfect contract from the organization. Allows them to say irrefutably that he rejected them. And even if he stayed and actually won, it is at the most minimal expense. In fact, it's only a loss financially if he won the 2008 World Series, which would make them all look good anyway. Plus, even if he did that, 2009 would be a lameduck year again.

No wonder they wanted no part of a negotiation.

[PittsburghYankeeFan]

I posted in another thread, but I'll finish off my thoughts on this here:

The Yankees' brass did not want Joe Torre back. Now, that's their right, I'm not debating that. And after 12 very successful seasons, both parties have profited beyond their wildest dreams. But the Yankees wanted to be in a position of saving face publically. To have some segment of the public on their side, and they achieved that.

So they crafted the most perfect one-sided contract they possibly could. And given Randy Levine's history in labor negotiations and politics, they staged this very well. It's a contract that could be taught in labor relations classes, lol.

1. It was a win/win for the Yankees. They get Torre on "lameduck" status for 2008 even if he accepted. And it costs them $2.5M less, while they can still cling to the "highest paid manager" point without debate.

2. Then, even if Torre accepted and won the World Series, the incentives only bring the total to $8M. So they pay just $500K more from 2007 AND win the World Series.

3. Torre wins the 2008 World Series and his 2009 option kicks in. Management knows he should get another year after an '08 ring, and it works well to open the new stadium. But here's the kicker: 2009 is another "lameduck" year. He's on the ropes again.

Perfect contract from the organization. Allows them to say irrefutably that he rejected them. And even if he stayed and actually won, it is at the most minimal expense. In fact, it's only a loss financially if he won the 2008 World Series, which would make them all look good anyway. Plus, even if he did that, 2009 would be a lameduck year again.

No wonder they wanted no part of a negotiation.

Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.

This tells me that Levine had a bit more say in this than Cashman did.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.

This tells me that Levine had a bit more say in this than Cashman did.

It had everything to do with Levine and the Steinbrenners. If Brian Cashman was still in charge of baseball operations 100% ; which obviously he's not anymore, Joe Torre would still be managing the Yankees. There is no way that Brian Cashman would not have given Joe Torre a 2 year contract. Even at a reduced salary with incentives, I think Torre would have stayed. They gave him a take it or leave it offer, non-negotiable offer. Does that sound like good faith to you? Does that supposed to make you feel wanted? Cashman, under his own free will, would have never treated Joe Torre so shabbily. If Brian Cashman is supposed to be in complete control as a GM, should he not supposed to be allowed to choose his manager?

[Jersey Yankee]

Like with players, the Yanks overpaid for Joe Torre. If he'd kept winning the way he did in the first 5 seasons, then he'd be worth even more than that. As is, for the past 7 years, I can't see him being even worth that much.

Had Torre been paid $5m in 2007, which is about what he's worth for a humongous payroll team, then he should have no complaint.

Bernie went from $12+ mil to $1.5 mil from 2005 to '06; Schill got a performance bonus in 2004 if they'd won the WS. Incentives and pay cuts aren't unprecedented.

Torre must've felt that so long as he'd wanted the job, he could keep getting ridiculous pay even if losing. Try doing that if you're a corporate president. So long as you have someone to answer to, you'll have to meet criteria. Welcome to the real world, Joe. You can't just collect humongous paychecks like you're a player and lose the first round 3 times straight when working for George Steinbrenner. Class or no class, them's the facts.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

Like with players, the Yanks overpaid for Joe Torre. If he'd kept winning the way he did in the first 5 seasons, then he'd be worth even more than that. As is, for the past 7 years, I can't see him being even worth that much.

Had Torre been paid $5m in 2007, which is about what he's worth for a humongous payroll team, then he should have no complaint.

Bernie went from $12+ mil to $1.5 mil from 2005 to '06; Schill got a performance bonus in 2004 if they'd won the WS. Incentives and pay cuts aren't unprecedented.

Torre must've felt that so long as he'd wanted the job, he could keep getting ridiculous pay even if losing. Try doing that if you're a corporate president. So long as you have someone to answer to, you'll have to meet criteria. Welcome to the real world, Joe. You can't just collect humongous paychecks like you're a player and lose the first round 3 times straight when working for George Steinbrenner. Class or no class, them's the facts.

After watching the press conference, I came away thinking that Joe Torre would have accepted a reduced guaranteed salary with incentives had he been given a 2 year contract. Not giving him a guaranteed second year unless he won the World Series is like stating he is on probation like a newbie at an entry level job. You would only subject yourself to that if you need the money. Joe Torre doesn't.

[IheartNY!]

I dont think the issue for Torre had anything to do with the $5mil, I think it had to do with the fact that they structured it with million dollar incentives, as if to insinuate that the failings of recent years were his fault due to lack of motivation. This is insulting, and I am glad to see that he stood up to that crap. Joe Tore is a true american hero. And no, I am not kidding.

[Jersey Yankee]

After watching the press conference, I came away thinking that Joe Torre would have accepted a reduced guaranteed salary with incentives had he been given a 2 year contract. Not giving him a guaranteed second year unless he won the World Series is like stating he is on probation like a newbie at an entry level job. You would only subject yourself to that if you need the money. Joe Torre doesn't.

I listened to most of it on radio. It seemed like Torre was acting like he's some victim amongst unsmiling demons. That part I wasn't too crazy about, since contract negotiations, especially player arbitrations when the team tells the player (even Mo) how poorly they'd performed.

I think that Torre had a point re the 1-year deal. I also think that if you have someone for 12 years, then a 2-year deal could've been OK. In fact, I think they should've had a 2-year deal instead of 3 years the last time.

Still, I can't say that the pay cut was unexpected. He'd acted in the press conference like he'd been offered a pay cut like anyone else would've been offered this, but when you're making more than twice as much as anyone else in your position, what do you expect?

I think that if it were $5-6m/yr for 2 years, and that there would've been a pay incentive if going to the WS, he couldn't have any reason to refuse.

I'm still on the fence for the deal. They'd given him less, which I don't mind, but 1 year for him seems a bit low, even if incentivized to have the 2nd year automatic if reaching the WS. If reaching the ALDS (or even reaching the ALCS, I might have been slightly more favorable to, but winning the AL pennant seems lofty if you're only offering 1 year.

If I were structuring the deal with the intention to bring back Torre and with incentives included, I'd have:

2008: $5.5m
2009, $6m

Reach the ALCS in either year, you get $7.5m in 2010. Win the WS (or alternatively, win the ALCS) in either year, you get another contract guaranteed for 2-3 years.

I wouldn't call it totally insulting, and I think that Torre got too emotional in acting the part of the victim. They didn't yell at him or cuss him in the media. They merely thought that he hadn't met expectations. Is he the first manager to not be brought back for this? No, and others have been fired in mid-season (Mazzilli) because their team didn't meet their expectations. Steinbrenner's expectations are simply higher, which Torre is well familiar with.

[Jersey Yankee]

I dont think the issue for Torre had anything to do with the $5mil, I think it had to do with the fact that they structured it with million dollar incentives, as if to insinuate that the failings of recent years were his fault due to lack of motivation. This is insulting, and I am glad to see that he stood up to that crap. Joe Tore is a true american hero. And no, I am not kidding.

I don't think that you're kidding. I accept what you're saying as your true opinion.

I don't think that the team's failure is entirely his fault. I think that the FO was simply tired of their team losing the ALDS 3 years in a row. In essence, I believe they were telling him that they'd wanted him to bring the team to higher ground. If not, you get paid less.

I don't think that's saying that the team failed because of him. I think that they'd simply wanted more from the team that he'd led, and he was being given more money to do so.

[LuckyLopez]

I think that's it. I think the message in the contract was "We've plateaued with you at the helm. We're willing to put $5-8M on the table to give you another season but we expect forward momentum if that's the case. If we don't cover new ground next season we'd like to move in a new direction."

Divorcing the emotion from the equation it seems to me like a completely fair idea. Its the 12 years that muddies the waters and presents the idea that Torre deserved more than a 1 year deal where he was managing for money and his career. And him not feeling that was worth buying into seems completely reasonable. But its two sides of a relationship going in two different directions. It happens and was likely to happen with this relationship sooner or later.

People have said Torre was a victim of his own success and that might be true. The things he accomplished may have put unreasonable standards on him. But it works both ways and I think its reasonable to believe that if it weren't for that amazing success he might not have made it past '03, '04, or any of following postseasons. And if he hadn't had all that success the loyalty shown by the fanbase and media probably would not have been as strong and the contract not as unreasonable. And he likely never would have been making $7.5M to begin with. So it doesn't really seem like a worthy road to go down. Its the situation. His amazing successes earned him his pay and organizational standing and loyalty. His subsequent "failures" eroded that standing and loyalty and the pain wasn't going to be repeated without a repeat of the successes.

And no, I don't think the failures are his alone nor necessarily his largely. But it works both ways and whatever level of influence he had on the failures he likely had on the successes. So however much you weigh a manager's impact or Torre's it seems reasonable that its equal. That is unless you do think he had an exceptional role in one and not the other. Which it does appear some do on either side of the fence. And that's just going to leave this a clear case for those people.

Torre sounds like he would have taken a 2 year deal because that security and confidence is what he wanted. The Yankees simply clearly didn't have that confidence so I think bemoaning their unwillingness to offer him 2 years is unfair. I don't think the offer was a bluff. Because I do think there's reasons other than inexperience and desperation to prove oneself that a manager like Torre might take that deal (a desire to fight to keep the job, a desire to prove himself to his doubters, a simple desire to remain a Yankee). Many proud athletes have taken 1 year deals or small deals to keep going even once others appear to have lost faith in them. But the Yankees don't appear to want to have committed to 2 years so offering that to make sure he signed wasn't the goal. It was (IMO) a simple matter of the Yanks being comfortable with 1 year and no more and Torre being comfortable with 2 years and no less. They could not meet and long standing relationships often have messy breakups.

[Zimmers' Helmet]

I think that's it. I think the message in the contract was "We've plateaued with you at the helm. We're willing to put $5-8M on the table to give you another season but we expect forward momentum if that's the case. If we don't cover new ground next season we'd like to move in a new direction."

Divorcing the emotion from the equation it seems to me like a completely fair idea. Its the 12 years that muddies the waters and presents the idea that Torre deserved more than a 1 year deal where he was managing for money and his career. And him not feeling that was worth buying into seems completely reasonable. But its two sides of a relationship going in two different directions. It happens and was likely to happen with this relationship sooner or later.

People have said Torre was a victim of his own success and that might be true. The things he accomplished may have put unreasonable standards on him. But it works both ways and I think its reasonable to believe that if it weren't for that amazing success he might not have made it past '03, '04, or any of following postseasons. And if he hadn't had all that success the loyalty shown by the fanbase and media probably would not have been as strong and the contract not as unreasonable. And he likely never would have been making $7.5M to begin with. So it doesn't really seem like a worthy road to go down. Its the situation. His amazing successes earned him his pay and organizational standing and loyalty. His subsequent "failures" eroded that standing and loyalty and the pain wasn't going to be repeated without a repeat of the successes.

And no, I don't think the failures are his alone nor necessarily his largely. But it works both ways and whatever level of influence he had on the failures he likely had on the successes. So however much you weigh a manager's impact or Torre's it seems reasonable that its equal. That is unless you do think he had an exceptional role in one and not the other. Which it does appear some do on either side of the fence. And that's just going to leave this a clear case for those people.

Torre sounds like he would have taken a 2 year deal because that security and confidence is what he wanted. The Yankees simply clearly didn't have that confidence so I think bemoaning their unwillingness to offer him 2 years is unfair. I don't think the offer was a bluff. Because I do think there's reasons other than inexperience and desperation to prove oneself that a manager like Torre might take that deal (a desire to fight to keep the job, a desire to prove himself to his doubters, a simple desire to remain a Yankee). Many proud athletes have taken 1 year deals or small deals to keep going even once others appear to have lost faith in them. But the Yankees don't appear to want to have committed to 2 years so offering that to make sure he signed wasn't the goal. It was (IMO) a simple matter of the Yanks being comfortable with 1 year and no more and Torre being comfortable with 2 years and no less. They could not meet and long standing relationships often have messy breakups.

If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.

[ksison]

bottom line is that George wanted Joe gone for years now.

I believe that George wanted Torre fired immediately after the elimination game against Cleveland.

however, George's sons and Levine concocted this symbolic deal in reaction to the media and fans.

If this was the old boss. Torre would have been gone 2 weeks ago. end of story.

Torre should not have been made to wait for an outcome. He deserves more than a lousy 1 deal with incentives. I believe that this was a ploy to force him out. Firing him after the game would have been a bit more respectable.

[LuckyLopez]

If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.

See, I don't think the question is necessarily whether they wanted him back of not. I think its very reasonable to believe that they were willing to give him a last go of it with a legitimate chance for more if he can get past this hump that has developed. And while I can understand where some people would be bothered by it I don't think its unreasonable to be willing to give 2 years to a new direction while only willing to commit 1 more to the current one. And this will probably rub people wrong but a 1 year contract IS a lame duck one. And that was clearly the message being given to Joe. I'm not sure that's the message you give to a new/young manager.

Such a move would show a clearly different standard for the new guy then for Torre. And that will obviously bother many of those who are upset with the events of the past week. But I don't think it would expose insincerity of the Torre offer. Just make clear that the Yankees would expect more of Torre in what would more or less be a "last chance" contract vs what they'd expect from the new guy in what may well be a "first chance" contract.

[Sillycon]

If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.

The contract was probably more along the lines of bridging it and grooming Mattingly. Obviously, they're not looking at Torre for longterm.

[wileedog]

Which is their right! It was a great deal for the Yankees. The only error was not trying to leave a little wiggle room for negotiation, which would have been a better negotiating strategy. If Joe felt that he was getting something, he may have taken something close to it.

The problem is what Joe wanted more than money was additional guaranteed years.

Which is the last thing the Yanks wanted to give him. Another year of the same is just more wasted time, much less 2 or 3.

Honestly I think the offer could have been for $10M for 1 year with the same conditions on next year and Joe would have been 'insulted'. I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.

The fact that the only thing he could think of in the last 4 years was the bug incident is clear indication of that.

[wileedog]

If the Yankees weren't willing to give Torre 2 years guaranteed but do so with whomever they hire to replace him; then that tells you all you need to know about just how sincere their offer was and about how badly they wanted to bring him back.

Of course they are going to give a new manager more than 1 year, are you kidding? The new manager isn't coming in already having blown 4 straight postseasons.

Plus the new manager is not going to be making $7M/yr, so firing him at any time isn't nearly as expensive.

[TheBamTino24]

I still don't think he believes there was anything wrong with his or his team's performances the past 4 years.

I have to disagree with that. I'm sure he has been disappointed, but probably doesn't think another manager could have done more. Torre's mentality is simply different from the Yankees' ownership: one believes postseason is unpredictable and random, the other believes it is not.

And while he's ultimately responsible, it would've been tough to expect more based on the individual performances we've been getting in these past 3 postseasons. And in 2004, he has to be held accountable. As does Rivera.

I think sometimes we have a habit here of inflating our own team because of the payroll and star power.

[YankeePride1967]

Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?

[TheBamTino24]

Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?

The key word was "again." His job status was a daily distraction from April until about mid-June. Everyday players were asked about it and I cannot count the times Jeter said it had to stop.

Here's the difference: Last year was the final year of his contract, which he agreed to. It was a natural "lameduck." This year would be by design and Torre did not want to choose that status again. And 2009 would be a lameduck as well, under the contract offer. That's choosing 2 more years of it. Ridiculous. No coach would. That's why the NY Giants extended Tom Coughlin 1 year after last season.

Like I've said, NYY's contract propsal to Torre was one-sided. The only thing Torre got to say was he was still the highest paid manager, despite taking a $2.5M paycut. And, clearly it wasn't about the money, because he chose a bigger loss this year by not taking it (min $5M).

They're being disingenuous to say they wanted him back. But that's all part of the spin.

[Dynasties R Forever]

Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job. Well wasn't he basically operating under the same conditions this year? If this is such a concern to him then why didn't he pass on the $7.5 million he would earn this year and resign after last year if that isn't something he feels comfortable with?

Yeah, no kidding.

Joe being disingenuous here.

[wileedog]

Here's one thing. One of the main issues Joe said was that a one year contract would have his players trying too hard for him because they would be playing too hard for his job.

Shouldn't they be doing that anyway?

[Mantle'sMutt]

Of course they are going to give a new manager more than 1 year, are you kidding? The new manager isn't coming in already having blown 4 straight postseasons.

Yeah that Torre bastard never could pitch and his hitting started to go south after about 1976.

[Changes]

It was more than fair to any other manager on Earth. For Torre, a 3 year deal at 15mil with incentives would've been fine.

[wileedog]

Yeah that Torre bastard never could pitch and his hitting started to go south after about 1976.

But apparently he was a great hitter and pitcher 96-00 so we should have forked over another $16M to him the next 2 years for mediocrity.

Is that your argument?

[Byron]

Haha - the ole "it wasn't Torre's fault the players couldn't play" argument always leads with its chin.

Ya just can not give a guy credit for the good times without placing blame for the bad.

I'm personally pretty torn on Torre as a manager. I think he was a terrible game time decision maker, but feel he was the perfect calming influence for a team like the Yanks and a city like NY.

In the end, I just don't think you have to spend 5 or 7 million dollars to get a guy to keep a locker room calm. That offer, while technically a pay cut, was still 3+ million more than anyone else in baseball is getting. I think the terms are what he had issue with... well, Joe, you are 67 years old and haven't had playoff success lately... what did you expect? A 5 year guaranteed?

[TheBamTino24]

I'm interested to see how not having Torre plays out. For all the people - from players to the media - who sware by his management skills of this team, in this city, and with the pressures of this organization, I'm very curious.

We're certainly going to find out by next October whether we missed him or not.

[FelipePArantes]

Off course it was fair.

In fact he was going to still being overpaid. He didn't do his job well, he deserved a lower contract. I think it was his proud that made him pass this deal, the events before the ALDS game 3 stuff like that.

Bye.

[ZIM 2002]

Torre always protected his players - I seriously doubt he thought it was "enough" to get to the postseason, but he could hardly be expected to say "no, I wasn't satisfied but what do you expect, since my hitters disappeared when it counted".