Was the Yankee offer to Torre Fair?

[budstinks]

I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.

Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.

$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.

I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.

I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).

[Yankees1962]

I thought it was very fair.

Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.

$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.

I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.

I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).

Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?

[In Mo I Trust]

The Yankees gave Torre an above market contract offer.

[JeffWeaverFan]

More than fair. The guy has not done a good job of late - did he expect a raise?

[Casey37]

Yes it was. Still, there's something missing here. I'm really looking forward to what he has to say about what supposedly transpired in that meeting.

[PinstripePride]

Yes, fair in my view.

[Janttje]

The offer was fair..

[budstinks]

Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?

From 97 to 99 he made about a $1 per year. I bet that was one of the highest paid managerial salaries. Managerial salaries have changed dramatically in the last 5-years, (driven by what the Yanks paid Torre).

From 00 to 01, he made $3 mil per season. I would bet that was the highest managerial salary in baseball.

So no, I don't think he was ever underpaid. His first couple years, he was still near the top even at a 1/2 mil. That's what managers were paid then.

So why should the yanks get rediculed for ONLY offering their manager the highest pay in baseball.

Shouldn't they be praised for showing financial restraint?

[RhodeyYankee2638]

5 times the league average in pay for managers, plus $3 mil in bonuses, which lets face it, he was automatically going to get at least $1 mil of that

[bobby jr]

Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.

[BRNXBMRS]

This contract wasnt about the money. Torre lost his allies within the organization. Good for Joe, I am glad he told the yanks to shove it.

[budstinks]

Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.

Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.

I mean seriously, barring catastrophe, the Yanks money (ability to keep 6 starting pitchers when others are lucky to have 4) should keep them in the hunt every year for a playoff spot.

[PeteRFNY]

Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?

In fairness, he was actually waaaay overpaid after that because he was able to use the cache of "four rings in five years" to hold a PR gun to George's head, much in the same way a player seeking a new contract after a bunch of great years would. George gave Joe the money he wanted in good faith and has no championships since to show for it.

Joe's dugout comas (the 'slump-and-stare') used to be amusing when the team was bringing home flags every year - or, at least making it to the World Series. The last few "one-and done" years, it hasn't been quite as much fun to watch. No one is saying Joe should have been another Piniella, freaking out and throwing bases over the myriad of calls that screwed the Yankees in the ALDS, or Billy Martin pacing and clapping the team on as if he were still playing...but a pulse of some kind would have been nice.

The Hermit Crabs of complacency had long since set in, going back to 2003. I was shocked that Joe wasn't given the Stump Merrill treatment after the 2004 debacle, and to be quite homest, felt that the offer the Yankees made to him yesterday was MORE than fair considering how the last batch of post-seasons have gone. I've always felt that this Yankees team under Torre won four championships, but it really should have been 7 or 8.

I appreciate what Joe did while he was here, but even the great Casey Stengel was finally given his walking papers. Joe was not gonna be here until the end of time - it's better to make some changes now than waiting until things became REALLY ugly. It's the best move for everybody.

[budstinks]

Perhaps it wasn't the dollar amount so much as it was only a one year contract offer, the fact that it was a pay cut. Also the provisions about reaching the WS as a "performance based" model, that would have to be hard to swallow, given the "crap shoot" nature of the playoffs with a lot of luck being involved.

Well, based on what the Yankees expect, what else could he have expected?

I wouldn't have wanted to give him a three year deal either.

I'm guessing he thought he had a lot more leverage than he really did and overplayed it right out of the best paying managerial job in baseball.

If he finds a job elsewhere, I doubt he gets Pinella type money.

Personally, I think he looks tired and needs a year off.

[JeffWeaverFan]

If he finds a job elsewhere, I doubt he gets Pinella type money.

I disagree with that. I could see him getting the LA job in 2009 and getting $4M a year, or something like that.

[TheBamTino24]

I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.

Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.

And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?

I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.

I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.

Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.

[YankeePride1967]

Was Torre underpaid from 1996-2001 for his early success?

I think we all know that whether it be a manager or player, we are paid based upon what we did in the past and not for the current year. If Joe was underpaid those years, he more than made up for that from 02-06. His last contract was based upon his remarkable record through 2003. Since then the Yanks blew that 3-0 lead in 04 followed by three straight first round defeats with two of the three being sound defeats. Is it fair the manager seems to get most of the blame? Of course not but that's how things work. His 05-07 record, if he wanted to be paid based on performance when he got his last extension, warrants a slight decrease to where he would still be guaranteed to be the highest paid manager in the game. But as I believe you said in another thread, I think Joe felt the Yanks didn't want him back. We'll find out more later.

[goin for 27]

No, it was not fair. The offer was designed to have Torre refuse. It is not about money at that point. Incentives? Is the Yankee Brass, Levine, etc being paid in incentives? No.

Should the Yanks offer ARod a one year, drastically reduced salary with incentives if he hits in the postseason? Of course not. How about Rivera? Worst year of his career, statistically. Offer him a reduced contract?

The Yanks should have sacked up and said that they just wanted to go in another direction, which would have been the dignified way to go. Torre was nothing if not classy in his tenure, this was ham handed, and a stunt.

People here can argue left and right, but watch the networks, read the respected writers, this was a classless, gutless way to have Torre go.

(And I was ambivalent, and could see both sides of him staying/going)

[YankeePride1967]

I didn't like the whole tenor of the contract. You either believe in him or you do not. You offer him a multi-year deal without silly incentives or say you're going in another direction.

Don't give me this one year stuff with this nonsense of putting a carrott in front him of him for the posesason. The guy has been here for 12 years. That's an insult...like he wasn't trying, or "motivated" as Levine alluded to. Yeah, he wasn't motivated. This freaking overpriced team was 21-29 and he got them back.

And you guys really think it's fair to put the manager in a spot where he could burn out young pitchers for incentives? WTF? Or pay him a $1M for winning 3 ALDS games?

I think we should instill paycuts on Wang, Rodriguez, and Jeter, too. Let them reach their full salary per round of the postseason.

I would have told them to shove it face to face as well. You have to have some dignity in life, and Torre has accomplished enough and has enough resources to do so.

Here's the kicker: I would have voted "fair" if he declined a guranateed a 2 year, $10M deal.

I was fine with this one or a 2/10 contract.

[budstinks]

I disagree with that. I could see him getting the LA job in 2009 and getting $4M a year, or something like that.

Who knows what the going rate for managers will be in 09?

We're talking 08. Why would any team pay him $4 mil knowing there isn't any other team out there (other than the Yanks that would?)

Maybe I just don't see the value in Torre. He runs a steady ship, but he manages pitchers like crap.

[yankees135]

I thought it was very fair. But the press today has been reaming out the Yankees.

Yes it was a pay cut, but Torre was WAY overpaid based on the early success.

$5 mil guaranteed with a possible $3 mil more seems extremely fair when you consider Pinella is the next highest paid at $3.5 mil and most are even close to Pinella.

I think Joe's pride just got the best of him and decided he didn't want to be the punching bag any more.

I think the Yanks could have taken or leaved Torre, but if that was truly the case, they could have offered him Pinella money (or less).

I can't say I blame him for that. I think he was not at all concerned about the $ as much as the years. Had they offered 10 million for 2 years, I suspect he would ahve taken the offer despite the paycut. Certainly 15 million for 3 years I can't imagine him turning down.

That would have been saying, "We thought about it a lot, and we decided that you are clearly the best man for the job. We would like to commit ourselves to you for the next few years."

A one year contract is not a "fair" offer (depending on what you mean by fair I supose). But with a 1 year offer, you know if the yankees got off to a lousy start, we'd be hearing about how Torre was going to be fired all over again.

He would be crazy to take the contract.

[Jdkush10]

Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.

I mean seriously, barring catastrophe, the Yanks money (ability to keep 6 starting pitchers when others are lucky to have 4) should keep them in the hunt every year for a playoff spot.

Postseason incentive clauses for a manager are ridiculous. Yes, the manager has some influence on the outcome of the game, but the results are ultimately decided by the manager. It's not Torre's fault that Jeter, A-Rod, et. al did not play to the same standard as they did during the regular season. Even if he was offered $5M, that is still close to a 25% pay cut - that's a severe decrease in salary (don't get me wrong, still A LOT of money) and Torre's pride obviously came into play there. I know it'd be awfully hard for me if my employer came to me with an offer that was even 10% less than the salary I currently make, let alone 25%.

The Yankees have made the playoffs 12 straight years under Torre. The White Sox went from winning the World Series to nearly finishing in last place two years later, and they extend Guillen - by that criteria, how in the world do you not extend Torre? A one year extension basically tells him that he will be a lame duck manager for the 2008 season. I know his managerial decisions can be somewhat questionable, but he deserved a better shake than this. He was essentially given an offer that the Yankees knew he would turn down.

[mentalgidget]

Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre

[junkman73]

The offer was more than fair. I don't know if it was fair to Joe to make it a 'take it or leave it' situation. I think it should have been the starting point for a dialogue, but the money and the opportunity is very generous.

Joe knows its WS or bust with the Yankees. He knew that before he signed his last deal. He's almost a victim of the success he helped create. Kind of ironic.

[TheBamTino24]

I think a better way to ask about the fairness is this:

Do you think the Yankees actually wanted Torre back?

I don't think so. And that's their right. I would have handled it differently, that's all.

[Bleacher_Creature]

This was a slap in the face, I don't think it was about the money, it probably had something to do with the lack of respect given to him by the Yankee brass. I want to hear Joe's side of the story, I'll trust him more than Levine. Joe has nothing to prove to nobody in my eyes.

[budstinks]

Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre

If the next manager gets Pinella type money ($3.5 mil), I'd be surprised.

Obviously, if it is Buck, he MIGHT get $3.5 mil, but who else out there would get $5 mil?

Maybe LaRussa?

So your talking apples and oranges. A two-year $3.5 mil/per to me isn't as good as what Torre was offered.

[TheBamTino24]

If it's Showalter, say goodbye to Rodriguez.

[destelle]

Yes it was. Still, there's something missing here. I'm really looking forward to what he has to say about what supposedly transpired in that meeting.

I agree with this 100% ... there's more to it.

[JohnnyDamonfan]

It wasn't really about the money. Joe is still one of the highest paid managers ever. So was the offer fair money wise? Yes! But it's the way that the Yankees wanted Joe to prove himself by only giving him one year that made the deal unfair. So in reality the deal was kinda unfair.

[Giuseppe Franco]

There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.

Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.

[yankeeman61]

There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.

Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.

Agreed. Completely.

[Giuseppe Franco]

Is the next manager going to get a similarly strutcured deal?
If they hold the line and use a "perfomrance based model" for the next manager then, I would think the offer to Torre was More than fair but if they end up giving the next skipper a multi year deal, that doesn't have an option tied to postseason performance, I think that would speak volumes about what their intentions were with Torre

Good point.

[budstinks]

I think a better way to ask about the fairness is this:

Do you think the Yankees actually wanted Torre back?

I don't think so. And that's their right. I would have handled it differently, that's all.

So if the Yanks had simply said "no thanks Joe, We're going in a different direction."

That would have been OK?

I don't see the dishonesty in what they offered him. They were basically saying, Joe we aren't happy with the post season results.

We expect more when we pay someone twice what any other manager out there makes and 7 times the average salary.

Maybe I'm just cold blooded, but I think the Yanks offer was more than fair and Joe just stepped all over his own ego.

I wouldn't call Joe greedy, but I imagine what Joe's thought process was, "If I'm going to have to put up with all this sheet in NY, I'm not taking a paycut."

Sitting out a year won't be the worst thing to ever happen to Torre either. He looks tired.

[TheBamTino24]

I thought the most humorous part was Levine's comments about needing "motivation" for the manager.

Is he kidding me? I mean, seriously. This team was 21-29 and left for dead. Not to mention 2005 and 11-19 because of the disasterous pitching, bailed out by the miracles of Small and Chacon.

[27IsNext]

Yes. The fact of the matter is, he was the head man during the '04 collapse, which would have gotten any manager not named Joe Torre or Bobby Cox fired. To add to that, he also oversaw three first-round exits the next several years. $5 million plus postseason incentives for one year with an option that's triggered if you make it to (not win) the World Series is more than fair for someone Joe's age who's been there too long to begin with and couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.

[budstinks]

There needs to be another box for this poll. I think that it's pretty clear that the classier thing to do was make NO offer, tell him they're are going in a different direction, thank him for his service, and move on.

Is there an precedent for pay cuts in the Yankees front office due to non-performance of the team? No.

So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?

Ooooooooooooo,kay.

I'll try to add that option, but I don't think this system lets me.

[TheBamTino24]

couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.

That's a product of the organization. That's not going away, especially if Torre couldn't cut it. We were spoiled by making 6 trips in 8 years that now they think it's our obligation.

[mentalgidget]

If the next manager gets Pinella type money ($3.5 mil), I'd be surprised.

Obviously, if it is Buck, he MIGHT get $3.5 mil, but who else out there would get $5 mil?

Maybe LaRussa?

So your talking apples and oranges. A two-year $3.5 mil/per to me isn't as good as what Torre was offered.

That's if you look at the fininacial end of tings. It's the length and option tied to postseason performance that make me think it's unfair.
Based on Torre's pricetag being so much higher than anyone elses, i certainly don't think the next manager will get anywhere near the same $$,

[budstinks]

That's if you look at the fininacial end of tings. It's the length and option tied to postseason performance that make me think it's unfair.
Based on Torre's pricetag being so much higher than anyone elses, i certainly don't think the next manager will get anywhere near the same $$,

So the Yanks should WAY overpay a manager they don't really think is that good WITH A MULTI-YEAR CONTRACT when there is probably somebody out there that could do as good a job for 1/2 the money.

Only in NY.

[yankees135]

Yes. The fact of the matter is, he was the head man during the '04 collapse, which would have gotten any manager not named Joe Torre or Bobby Cox fired. To add to that, he also oversaw three first-round exits the next several years. $5 million plus postseason incentives for one year with an option that's triggered if you make it to (not win) the World Series is more than fair for someone Joe's age who's been there too long to begin with and couldn't get his team to relax in the postseason the last few years.

Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?

Game 4, got the game to Rivera with a lead
Game 5, got the game to Gordon our top setup man with a lead. Yeah, perhaps Gordon shouldn't have pitched in game 3, but at that time, were you really thinking gordon shouldn't pitch or were you thinking that "yeah, lets make sure we win this one, we'll be up 3-0 and if Gordon needs to have a day off tomorrow, it will be fine since we can afford to lose that one"

Game 6. The only *possible* complaint is that we didn't bunt on Schilling. But we don't know for sure this was Torre's call. It is normally a manager's call to bunt for a sacrifice, but rarely do you see a manager tell a player to bunt for a hit. So while I agree he could have encouraged this more, I doubt he said to the team before the game , "hey, you aren't allowed to bunt for a hit"

Game 7.....Kevin Brown was obviously not a good call, but what was the alternative? We have no idea how El Duque was going to do on 2 days rest and battling lots of injuries. Mussina was on 1 day rest......Vazquez was also terrible at the time....Torre *could* have rearranged things at the start of the series to make sure that he had a good pitcher going in 7, but then you'd be seeing Kevin Brown or someone in game 2 instead, and odds are we'd have lost game 2 then instead and maybe not even made it to a game 7.

[In Mo I Trust]

Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?

Because it happened under his watch. Fair or unfair, that is how managers are judged. Why he gets credit for 1996-2000 is the exact same reason he takes blame for 2004 and the recent first round exits. You can't have it both ways.

[CommerceComet]

Personally, I'm glad to see the Yankees use some post season incentive clauses.

Yes, for the new manager. I am not surprised that Joe Torre was insulted by it.

The answer to the initial question is yes and no. Depends on what it is compared to. Compared to the current market for managers, the offer was more than fair. Compared to his previous contract, it represented a 33% pay cut after possibly his best ever regular-season managing job.

[27IsNext]

That's a product of the organization. That's not going away, especially if Torre couldn't cut it. We were spoiled by making 6 trips in 8 years that now they think it's our obligation.

An organization that Torre was a part of. Is the "World Series or bust" attitude the front office and media portray good for the team? No. But the manager's job is to get his team to focus on the internal factors, not external factors, and the results the past few years indicate he's lost his touch to do so.

[Jdkush10]

So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?

Ooooooooooooo,kay.

I'll try to add that option, but I don't think this system lets me.

Hard to fire someone when his contract has expired.

A contract for postseason incentives is a gigantic slap in the face to any manager, let alone one who has had the success as Torre. Why doesn't the front office have similar contracts? Aren't they the ones who supply the players for Torre to manage? Shouldn't they be held responsible as well? Or, how about they take away money from the players as well if they don't perform up to expectations?

This offer is a good example of the type of suffocating atmosphere that makes it so difficult to play in New York, and would only prevent players from ever wanting to play for the Yankees. It could also lead Torre to compromise young arms like Joba and Hughes in order to "meet" these incentives.

[mentalgidget]

...a manager they don't really think is that good ...

Do you think they wanted Torre back at all?

If not, and they could get another manager just as good for 1/2 the money, why offer Torre any contract at all?

[Giuseppe Franco]

So the CLASSY thing would have been to just fire Torre and give him no choice?

He wouldn't have been fired. He just wouldn't have been given a new contract. They say they want to try something different. Thanks. Then produce a new Torre-ography...and have a Torre appreciation day.

They had two choices. 2 years / 15 million or cut ties. (so they really only had one choice)

Saying, "Yeah Joe, we like you but we decided that you're overpaid because you haven't won a World Series in 7 years. So we're going to ask you (and ONLY you) to take a pay cut." is PR B.S.

Honestly, I would have told them to go F themselves. I'm amazed that he comported himself as well as he (apparently) did.

[No. 13]

Yes it was a fair offer, afterall he was still going to be the highest paid manager.

[Giuseppe Franco]

Do you think they wanted Torre back at all?

If not, and they could get another manager just as good for 1/2 the money, why offer Torre any contract at all?

PR...

[27IsNext]

Why does Torre get blamed for the 04 collapse?

Game 4, got the game to Rivera with a lead
Game 5, got the game to Gordon our top setup man with a lead. Yeah, perhaps Gordon shouldn't have pitched in game 3, but at that time, were you really thinking gordon shouldn't pitch or were you thinking that "yeah, lets make sure we win this one, we'll be up 3-0 and if Gordon needs to have a day off tomorrow, it will be fine since we can afford to lose that one"

Game 6. The only *possible* complaint is that we didn't bunt on Schilling. But we don't know for sure this was Torre's call. It is normally a manager's call to bunt for a sacrifice, but rarely do you see a manager tell a player to bunt for a hit. So while I agree he could have encouraged this more, I doubt he said to the team before the game , "hey, you aren't allowed to bunt for a hit"

Game 7.....Kevin Brown was obviously not a good call, but what was the alternative? We have no idea how El Duque was going to do on 2 days rest and battling lots of injuries. Mussina was on 1 day rest......Vazquez was also terrible at the time....Torre *could* have rearranged things at the start of the series to make sure that he had a good pitcher going in 7, but then you'd be seeing Kevin Brown or someone in game 2 instead, and odds are we'd have lost game 2 then instead and maybe not even made it to a game 7.

Didn't command his runners to steal on Varitek catching Wakefield, didn't try to bunt on Schilling because it wasn't "classy," playing Sierra against Schilling instead of Lofton, the Posada pinch-running fiasco, Gordon in the blowout game three off the top of my head. He isn't totally to blame, but he shares a good chunk. Francona embarrassed him that year.