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Thread: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

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    Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
    http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter


    They are the Yankees, so two hours after their season turned to winter, there was a cellphone conversation about what could be packaged with Chien-Ming Wang to get Johan Santana, not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents. They inquired about Santana, because they are the Yankees.

    But they're also different from the Bronx Zoo or 1998 Yankees. There is no clear chain of command, as the man who bought the franchise for half of what he now pays Jason Giambi has struggled with his health and his sons are feeling their way into power. They have been eliminated in the first round three straight years, haven't played a World Series game since being dominated by Josh Beckett in 2003, haven't won the World Series since the Clinton Administration.

    After 12 years of respect, competence and dignity, Joe Torre is almost certainly out as manager, with no replacement set in stone. People in the organization know Don Mattingly is the only successor the players will buy, but it may be that the fragmented powers that be don't care what the players think because the players think Torre should be rehired.

    They'd love a proven entity, but Tony La Russa has little interest in dealing with the chain of hurricanes that surround this franchise, and Jim Leyland, Bobby Cox and Mike Scioscia aren't available. La Russa is very careful and sensitive to the media, and going from a couple of beat writers to a media culture which plays sides and in some cases believe they, the writers, are the story, is not something he wants after all he's done in his professional life. There may be drums beating for Lou Piniella, and the Cubs might not mind allowing him to go to New York.

    They will chew on Mattingly and Joe Girardi (someone will mention Trey Hillman and certainly Buck Showalter), but the centrifugal force that Torre provided will be gone, and the floor opens to one question after another. The Boss's successor may be Hank Steinbrenner, but he has to sort through the voices that want his ear. Or it could be Hal Steinbrenner. Will Brian Cashman remain in power, or can Randy Levine grab the power chair? If Cashman isn't in full command, it could take months to figure out where the buck stops.

    And Alex Rodriguez. Those who believe the sun sets and rises on baseball's best player can rant about his .267 Division Series and point to the fact that he went from Game 3 of the 2004 ALCS until the eighth inning Monday without a postseason RBI, but if he opts out of his contract and Scott Boras gets him $30 something million a year elsewhere (plus a third of all Venezuelan oil reserves), they must fill in a canyon, as well as replace his entertainment value to YES and those $2,500-a-game seats in the new stadium.

    Players warn that Torre's departure will make it more expensive and difficult to keep free agents Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera. The former makes no pretense about his loyalty to Torre and, since the team waited on his extension, he is willing to listen to other teams. Can you say Mets? Don't even waste your time thinking about it. But the larger question is whether Posada or Rivera leave, will it open the door to the 1980s, when players didn't want to go to New York to play for the Yankees.

    Rivera will have no qualms about taking the Yankees to the wall, or leaving. Bobby Abreu would leave without the ties of Posada and Rivera.

    The good news is that they have developed a new, fresh core. Robinson Cano is close to the plate discipline that could make him a .340/35 home run, three-hole hitter. Melky Cabrera is a wonderful, energetic force. Joba Chamberlain is real, Phil Hughes showed in Game 3 the ridiculous stuff he showed in the minors ("He was relaxed because this was the first time he didn't think he had to be great," says Mattingly) and Ian Kennedy can pitch.

    And if Jeter hadn't hobbled around like Walter Brennan with his bad knee and Wang had been good instead of terrible, the Yankees might have won the series. But in the Yankees' world, sadly, anything short of winning the World Series is failure, with no respect for the fact that seven different teams have won the World Series in this century and that revenue-sharing has made getting to the World Series really difficult. Yankeeland may not be alone, but in the self-absorbed promotion of Red Sox Nation, this season in which Boston led the majors in wins while developing more than a half-dozen players in their first full major league seasons, the success or failure of the 2007 season may be determined on whether or not the Sawx win the World Series. If C.C. Sabathia and Fausto Carmona win three of their four starts, which is a distinct possibility, New Englanders may be convinced by a misanthropic shock jock world that the season was a waste and that someone has to pay for that failure by losing his job.

    The saddest part of the Indians-Yankees series is that the story became Torre and Steinbrenner and A-Rod, not a Cleveland team that won more games than the Yankees during the season. With a payroll half the size of the Red Sox's, the Indians matched Boston in wins. They moved two kids named Asdrubal Cabrera and Franklin Gutierrez into key positions in mid-August (after which they had the best record in the league), and they took Carmona out of Buffalo and watched him develop into one of the three or four best pitchers in the league. It's a shame that the swarm of bugs became the story of Game 2, the reason Chamberlain lost. When Carmona got to the Indians' bench after pitching during The Plague, they scraped more than 50 bugs off his neck and face, but Carmona didn't get distracted.

    The Indians' lineup is deep, they play defense, they have two great starters, two very good relievers (Rafael Perez and Betancourt), and they grind out at-bats and make it hard for starting pitchers to get into the seventh inning. They deserved to beat the Yankees, and it's possible that they will deserve to beat the Red Sox. They aren't a tabloid team in an era when celebrity news is so legitimized that Paris Hilton gets 100 hits on Google for every one for Nancy Pelosi.

    It's one thing to dream about Johan Santana or Roy Oswalt. They are the Yankees, and in two years they'll be getting $810,000 for four season tickets behind home plate. It's another thing to drive the firing of Joe Torre because not winning the World Series is a failure, and because the story sells.
    '

    Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?

    I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.

    I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe

  2. #2

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
    Peter Gammons- Yanks' issues go beyond Torre
    '

    Thoughts? I really do like Peter, but I definitely think he's overstating the chaos that he thinks surrounds the franchise. Until I see evidence indicating otherwise, Brian is still in charge of this team....(except for the Joe thing, unfortunately, but what can you do? That's George). Now all of a sudden players aren't going to want to play for the Yankees anymore?

    I don't see Posada or Rivera leaving......although Mo for sure is a man of principal. If he truly feels the Yankees have wronged him or Joe, who knows? Still, I can't imagine him wanting to finish his career in anything other than pinstripes.

    I like his points about the new core of youngsters........and of course, his implication that firing Joe is a lousy move. Everyone in baseball loves Joe
    yeah i usually like peter gammons analysis on things, but I always disagree with him when it comes to soemthing about the yankees.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    One issue is Bobby Abreu staying has nothing to do with the other guys. The Yankees have a team option for Abreu.
    “I mean, people knew that Brown was out there, and that Randy was ornery all the time. And Pavano is whoever he is. But if you’re their manager, you can’t go out and write about them like that.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Makes perfect sense to me.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Gammons' mentioning of the Yankees calling about a Wang and others for Santana deal is the second time I've heard of this today. I think Verducci mentioned it, too, but only if Alex leaves. Interesting......... if Pettitte decides to retire, we would have no LH starters. Hmmmm.......


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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Great article by Peter.

  7. #7

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Interesting article, doesn't quite paint a pretty picture.

    P.S. This line made me laugh very hard for some reason: not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents
    "We understand that John Henry must be embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed by his failure in this transaction. Unlike the Yankees, he chose not to go the extra distance for his fans in Boston."

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    I find it hard to believe the Yankees front office is telling people they want to trade Wang.

    Also, that line about Beckett dominating them in 2003 conveniently ignores that fact that Moose beat him in Game 3.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    It's interesting that whenever the Yankees lose a series vs. a team, the story is always that the Yankees lost and not that the other team won. Peter was right about game 2 - Carmona was the second story of that night (second to the bugs) when he pitched one of the greatest games I had ever seen vs. the Yanks in the postseason.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
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  11. #11

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    This is the typical "fallout" article that always appears after a yankee playoff loss. Theres always speculation after a playoff loss that the sky is going to fall over yankee stadium, everyones getting fired, the team is gonna be dismantled. Give it a few days and everything will be sorted out.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBamTino24
    Gammons once said that after Steinbrenner fired Showalter that the team would be set back 10 years.
    did he mention which 10 years?

    Seriously, I can't believe he's in the HOF. On what basis?
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  13. #13

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Gammons knows nothing. I don't know how he got himself on the $20 bill.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by R.V.47
    This is the typical "fallout" article that always appears after a yankee playoff loss. Theres always speculation after a playoff loss that the sky is going to fall over yankee stadium, everyones getting fired, the team is gonna be dismantled. Give it a few days and everything will be sorted out.
    Pretty much. And Gammons, being an avid New Englandah, is no stranger to the hyperbole.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Overall, I think he makes some really good points. As much as many folks that frequent NYYF dislike Joe Torre, he is definitely one of a kind in his ability to deal with the NY media, The Boss and get his players to do their best. Does he make some bad decisions? Sure, but they all will. There will be NO manager that makes the right decision in the fans' eyes, because we all have different opinions. Just look at the Joe Must Stay/Joe Must Go posts.

    With The Boss throwing around ultimatums and the like, it just shows that it's that much tougher to play in NY. The pressure to play and deliver for the NYY is hard enough, but having to worry about how The Boss will react and what he may or may not say about you in the paper doesn't help.

    I'm no fan of Peter Gammons by a long shot, but his article does a really good job of covering the various points about the series (press perception vs. played reality) and the state of the Yankees in the future (who IS going to pay for those shiny new luxury boxes if the Yanks revert to a .500/3rd place team?)

    I like Joe. He brought the trophy back to NY when no one really expected he would. Now that he's expected to do it and hasn't delivered, it's all his fault. It's an unreasonable position to be in, and yet he still wants to do it. I say let him.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    as long as cash can figure out a way to not let joe manage the pen, I am fine with joe.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Not a Charlie McCarthey Gammons fan and I truly believe that 75% of what he writes is a "plant" on someone else's behalf. He's also an unadulterated mouthpiece for Theo Epstein. With that in mind, why would Theo be trying to send a message thru Gammons that the Yankees are a disaster, a mess, spinning out of control, leaderless and rudderless?
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Pancake
    Not a Charlie McCarthey Gammons fan and I truly believe that 75% of what he writes is a "plant" on someone else's behalf. He's also an unadulterated mouthpiece for Theo Epstein. With that in mind, why would Theo be trying to send a message thru Gammons that the Yankees are a disaster, a mess, spinning out of control, leaderless and rudderless?
    Exactly my thought reading the article.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY
    Exactly my thought reading the article.
    I kept thinking about pie. Now I'm going to go eat some.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    He's not a Yankees insider...he doesn't have any feel for the organization's culture. I don't buy it.
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  22. #22

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksphan
    I kept thinking about pie. Now I'm going to go eat some.
    I hate pie.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY
    I hate pie.
    Pie or Gammons.

    Pick one.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksphan
    Pie or Gammons.

    Pick one.
    Pie. I'll spit it out.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY
    Pie. I'll spit it out.
    I admire your integrity - but I'm baffled by your hatred for pie.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by yanksphan
    I admire your integrity - but I'm baffled by your hatred for pie.
    It's a deep rooted hatred of pie crust. My company gives us one thing for free every year - a Pie at Thanksgiving.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    i don't buy it either. he's grasping at straws right now. and isn't torre's contract up.... he can't be fired if his contract is up. and i doubt they are gonna trade wang.


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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Hey, I didn't know Robinson Cano was close to the patience that is going to make him a .340, 35-HR, 3-hole hitter.
    I agree with Gammons that it's sheer lunacy and gross hypocrisy for Steinbrenner to fire Torre because the Yanks don't have a championship quality rotation (especially when the reason why they don't have the rotation can largely be laid at big George's doorstep), but I think he's getting a bit hyperbolic. If they get the right replacement and he can't handle the players' unhappiness about losing Joe, then they didn't get the right replacement. Of course that begs the question of why you'd even want to make a change but change for change's sake has long been the law of the King George's jungle. And it's always worked before. It has hasn't it?
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  29. #29

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by frostdude1
    like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
    Exactly. Especially one with such a weak grasp of facts he thinks Abreu can leave.

    He doesn't know jack.
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  30. #30

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Yep, I'm sure players will turn down the chance in droves to play for a perennially contending team with tons of history and lore on the biggest stage - NY (that comes along with the big money of NY) - just because Torre isn't managing. Don't get me wrong, he probably helps court some players, but it doesn't seem to me other teams have problems getting FAs and they don't have Torre. Really, it all comes down to one thing: how much money are you going to pay me compared to all the other teams? And as usual, the Yankees will always have the same answer: More.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by frostdude1
    like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
    Perfectly put. Let him go analyze his beloved pink sox.
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  32. #32

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Peter's complaining in this article is sort of hypocrital in a way. He is crying because more recognition is on the fact that the Yankees lost than Cleveland winning. But who Peter is really overshadowing this? Of course... its the mainstream media, straight up to your employer which is ESPN. If you are complaining about the Indians not getting recognition Peter, then why didn't you write a huge article on their success, instead of adding to the Yankee stories, and then complaining about it.

    As far as this franchise goes, I look forward to this offseason. We are going to be an even stronger team next year. Keep believing.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?

    Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Martini6196
    The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?

    Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
    It's going to be a long winter if we're dangling Wang already. Ugh.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Martini6196
    The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?

    Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
    I'll do it in a nano second. But the Twins are going to want more.

  36. #36

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by frostdude1
    like im gonna listen to a 96 year old red sox fan tell me about the state of the Yankees
    Gammons knows nothing more than the rest of us who have never played pro baseball.I would listen to Horace Speed [who?] ,before Gammons.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBamTino24
    It's going to be a long winter if we're dangling Wang already.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYDragoon
    Pretty much. And Gammons, being an avid New Englandah, is no stranger to the hyperbole.
    He knows it sells and that is his business. Probably had the article mostly written for a couple weeks, waiting for the recent events to use as a backdrop. The worst fear he brings up is one in which players would find the Yankees unattractive in terms of signing. Another reason the upcoming "manager discussions" had better be very well considered.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    People actually pay money, real American dollars, to ESPN "INsider" to read Red Sox Nation presidental candidate Andrew Jackson's drivel? Can anyone explain this ? Why?
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  40. #40

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    well, it's not just Peter. Buster Olney (and he would know the Yankees, since he covered them for a long time) said on ESPN that, with Hal/Hank/George/Randy Levine whomever running the show, it's possible that the team could spin out of control like it did in the 80's. Of course, in response to Karl Ravich, he said that the Yankees foundation is a lot more solid then it was back then because of their young players........still, I'm starting to get nervous again.

    I'm really worried about Hank/Hal/Randy Levine - they are clearly overruling Brian (ok, he hasn't come out, but I firmly believe he wants Joe back) on this; what makes us think they won't overrule him on other matters?

    The Yanks have such a promising future, but if they trade Phil or Joba - I don't think I could stand it.

  41. #41

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    "He was relaxed because this was the first time he didn't think he had to be great," says Mattingly
    Please do not let him be manager next year.

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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
    well, it's not just Peter. Buster Olney (and he would know the Yankees, since he covered them for a long time) said on ESPN that, with Hal/Hank/George/Randy Levine whomever running the show, it's possible that the team could spin out of control like it did in the 80's. Of course, in response to Karl Ravich, he said that the Yankees foundation is a lot more solid then it was back then because of their young players........still, I'm starting to get nervous again.

    I'm really worried about Hank/Hal/Randy Levine - they are clearly overruling Brian (ok, he hasn't come out, but I firmly believe he wants Joe back) on this; what makes us think they won't overrule him on other matters?

    The Yanks have such a promising future, but if they trade Phil or Joba - I don't think I could stand it.
    So now a grown man who walks aorund with people calling him by the name of a children's shoe company icon is the smart guy? He did cover the Yankees, for a company called the New York Times. They also own a baseball team called the Boston Red Sox.
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugg
    So now a grown man who walks aorund with people calling him by the name of a children's shoe company icon is the smart guy? He did cover the Yankees, for a company called the New York Times. They also own a baseball team called the Boston Red Sox.
    It's a conspiracy!

  44. #44
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by Martini6196
    The most important part of this article to me is that the Yankees are dangling Wang for Santana. Is this true? Has anyone other than Gammons reported this?

    Also, who else will need to be inlcuded in the deal. I'm thinking at least Wang and Melky since Hunter is leaving this year. Any thoughts?
    Do you think the twinkies will be offered a better SP than Wang for Santana?
    Or should the Yanks wait until he hits FA?
    Carlos Beltran wanted to play CF for the Yankees, not the mets. The Yankees said no. Mark Teixeira wanted to play 1B for the Yankees, not the sux. The Yankees said yes!

  45. #45

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Cashman never would have come back if he did not have the appreciation of the Steinbrenner boys or Levine. Cashman is in control of this team.

  46. #46

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Quote Originally Posted by dogg
    Do you think the twinkies will be offered a better SP than Wang for Santana?
    Or should the Yanks wait until he hits FA?
    I dont think they will be offered a better major league pitcher then Wang but im sure most teams in the running will be willing to part with 1 if not maybe 2 of their top prospects. Dont know if the yanks are willing to do that and quite frankly I hope they dont.
    If you listen to the fans you’ll be sitting with them soon enough.- Brian Cashman

  47. #47
    2009 CHAMPS! StatenIslandYankee's Avatar
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Some solid points.


    "When white belts want to learn jiu jitsu they go to a black belt. When black belts want to learn jiu jitsu they go to John Danaher."

  48. #48
    Damn it folks -- Not a Fag!
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...csey,%20George

    You just never know what's gonna make sense.
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  49. #49

    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    A nice read as always from Peter.

    I dont see where the issues come from. I actually think the light at the end of the tunnel is more visable now, than it has been since ALCS game 3.
    "Owning the Yankees," Steinbrenner once said, "is like owning the Mona Lisa."

  50. #50
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    Re: Peter Gammons: Yanks issues go beyond Torre

    Gammons must have been reading my posts. I suggested the Yankees forming a Santana package around Wang 3 last week, but everyone ingnored it.
    "Long Island is New Jersey with a GED." - Triumph the Insult Comic Dog.

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