Lou Piniella doesn't think women know enough to be managers

[penguin4]

Hoo boy, Lou. Way to shoot yourself in the foot with this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/ma...in&oref=slogin

I'm trying to put this in context. The way he says it, I wonder if it's a jab at women or a jab at sportswriters in general, the people who secondguess him. (Does he feel that way about male sportswriters, too?) Good for Deborah Solomon to abandon ship before he got himself into more trouble. I want to argue knee-jerk "oh my god, this is an OUTRAGE!", but it's not like misogyny is new in sports, or something that'll go away soon.

I would be interested in hearing why he thinks that way, though. Because women don't play baseball? Or simply because women don't think the way men do and couldn't identify? I don't know, and I'm not sure what to say other than the way things are going on the Cubs right now, he'd be wise to keep his mouth shut.

[4bronxbombers]

Methinks I may need to read this in the morning. I don't want to get pissed off before I go to bed.

[Yankees1962]

Unless, a woman has played and coached professional baseball in the minor or major leagues for years, he's right.

[penguin4]

Unless, a woman has played and coached professional baseball in the minor or major leagues for years, he's right.

So, in your opinion, a former member of the AAGPBL or the Colorado Silver Bullets might make a good manager one day.

[Yankees1962]

So, in your opinion, a former member of the AAGPBL or the Colorado Silver Bullets might make a good manager.

If they played with and coached professional male players for years then yes.

[PirateChief]

If they played with and coached professional male players for years then yes.

That's horse hockey.

Sometimes I think a woman might be better at the job than a man. Whip those men into shape! No more gary sheffield opening his mouth.

[Yankees1962]

That's horse hockey.

Sometimes I think a woman might be better at the job than a man. Whip those men into shape! No more gary sheffield opening his mouth.

Yeah right, maybe with IBM or some other Fortune 500 company, but not a ML baseball team.

[JDPNYY]

Are we talking an Applebees Manager or a Major League Baseball Manager?

[Yankees1962]

Are we talking an Applebees Manager or a Major League Baseball Manager?

Good question. Of course, I've been basing my opinion on managing the latter.

[4bronxbombers]

I hope this thread gets locked....I can already tell it's not going in a good direction.

[Yankees1962]

I hope this thread gets locked....I can already tell it's not going in a good direction.

Why isn't it going in a good direction?

[Bambino22]

who cares?

[4bronxbombers]

Yeah right, maybe with IBM or some other Fortune 500 company, but not a ML baseball team.

Not all managers were MLB players. So why are you saying that a woman could be good with an IBM type company but not an MLB team?? Back up what you are saying and tell us why.

[JDPNYY]

I think a woman could manage in the majors. Heck, there are plenty of games I wish yankeebot was managing the Yankees instead of Joe.



(Has a woman ever managed in the minors?)

[NYYFAN]

Can a woman manage? Yes,

Can a woman manage 25 rich egocentric, high testosterone guys? Probably not too well...

[Yankees1962]

Not all managers were MLB players. So why are you saying that a woman could be good with an IBM type company but not an MLB team?? Back up what you are saying and tell us why.

Read my earlier posts in which I stated, playing and coaching a strictly male professional ballplayers whether minor or major leagues for many years like 15-20 years. So far, I haven't heard of any woman doing such. Also, why the attitude?

[NYYFAN]

I just had a visual of Suzy Waldman managing and I nearly pissed my pants...

[Yankees1962]

Can a woman manage? Yes,

Can a woman manage 25 rich egocentric, high testosterone guys? Probably not too well...

That's my point. I never said women don't understand the game and some better than a lot of men which you can read daily examples of on this forum.

[JDPNYY]

I just had a visual of Suzy Waldman managing and I nearly pissed my pants...

She'd be telling everyone to go out there and try to hit a line shawt.

[NYYFAN]

She'd be telling everyone to go out there and try to hit a line shawt.

I thought the same thing...

[penguin4]

If they played with and coached professional male players for years then yes.

I understand what you're saying because I've often thought of it that way (that I could never be a good manager because I don't play the game) -- but do you believe in the flip side, that men could only coach women if they played with them?

I'm not supposing what or not you believe, just pointing out it seems there's a double standard out there. Why is it a man can coach a women's college basketball or WNBA team an no one bats an eye, whereas if a woman coaches a male team it's national news?

I realize baseball it's a little different because a lot less women actually play it, but does society imply it's harder to coach men? And why is that so? Playing alongside them, I can understand, the male/female game requires a different type of physicality, but coaching? Seems to me knowledge and intuition is knowledge and intuition, rules are rules.

[Huktonfonix]

Well, one potential issue is that the manager has to be a presence in the locker room...

Honestly though, I don't feel qualified to comment on this issue until I can figure out what the hell makes one qualified to manage a professional baseball team.

It's certainly not a matter of skill as a player, intellect as a manager, respect for one's own players, or respect for the game as a whole. Hi Ozzie Guillen.

[yankeebot]

This is a tricky one. Yes, women are certainly smart enough and can understand the game well enough to manage (and thank you John ).

The question is not so much whether or not women can manage but whether or not "25 rich egocentric, high testosterone guys" can accept a woman as a manager. I wouldn't rule it out so quickly. A woman would have to have a much stronger resume than a man and it would take a long time to break through but men are gradually becoming more and more accustomed to seeing women in positions of power. Men that have not played the game don't start as major league managers and neither would a woman. Success at the minor league levels would be paramount and she would most likely have to put in way too many years as a bench coach before even being given an interview but I think it's plausible. That said, I don't expect to see it in my lifetime. There are only 30 major league manager positions in existence. The vast majority of those positions are filled by former players. Women are at a huge disadvantage.

I think we are much closer to a woman as GM. The Dodgers interviewing Kim Ng for that position was a first step. I'd also like to see more women get into umpiring. Again, though, there are so few positions available that it is a very long and difficult undertaking.

Tara, of course there is a double standard. It's there in every walk of life. Why would men's professional sports be any different? TBH, I can understand why men would not want a woman manager. While the reasons may not be entirely rational, it's silly to pretend that there are not any differences between men and women.

As for what Lou said about women not understanding the x's and o's, I give him some slack. He's an old man and a bit of a dinosaur. It has no bearing on me.

And finally, if you girls want to see women get a chance in coaching, get out there and volunteer with Little League, get certified as an umpire or ref. Get little boys used to seeing women in these positions will make them more likely to accept it as they grow older. As for myself, I'll leave that to my husband and take advantage of the free time to have my nails done and get a massage.

[aeromac76]

I am sure there are gals out there who know the game well enough to manage it from a technical standpoint. Heck I think some of my close friends who are females and big NYY fans could manage a pen better than Torre!


But the question is this, would the players respect her and play for her? This has nothing to do with her ability, but would a female hire be in the best interests of an organization? Not to mention there are guys out there who have toiled in the game as minor league managers or coaches for years to get a ML gig, at this point, no women has done that.. Is it fair then?

I think you would have to begin an integration program in the minors, so that any potential female manager pays the same dues as any male does. You'd also have to remove the stigma of "playing for a girl" from players' heads, which will take time as well..

I think it could be possible, but not in the near future, and again, that does not have anything to do with the fact that women do not know baseball, because some do very well..

[TheoShmeo]

In the PC world we now live in, Lou got himself in a little trouble by saying what, I would guess, somewhere between 99 and 100 percent of ballplayers, managers and FO people think. How many managers didn't play ball at at least the minor league level? This is a tempest in a PC teapot.

[#1PaFan]

Lou is exactly right. Women just don't have the necessary tools to be coaches or managers at this level, or any level really.

Now, get us men some beer, little ladies.

[yankeebot]

Lou is exactly right. Women just don't have the necessary tools to be coaches or managers at this level, or any level really.

Now, get us men some beer, little ladies.

I can only think of one "tool" that we don't have and you can play with it while you get your own damn beer.

[DanB]

I think men and women are different and have different natural skills. I could never be as nurturing a mother as my beautiful wife. My kids are lucky to be alive after a night alone with me. Conversely, even though she's a West Point grad and was a very successful Army officer for about 7 years, she chose the life of a mother over life in the Army - and she would not have cut it in combat arms even though she can out run and out work most of the guys i know. Men and women are different...why do so many try to fight it? Even the smartest baseball womyn would have trouble managing a team...she might be brilliant at making the right calls, but she would not survive the myriad of other tasks required of the job - notably the interpersonal nuances of leadership in a very type A environment, fighting the press stereotypes, etc.

[Nome]

Lou is exactly right. Women just don't have the necessary tools to be coaches or managers at this level, or any level really.

Now, get us men some beer, little ladies.

George will never be accused of being politically correct. And I might be an old dinasaur. But the question is can a woman be successful at a ML level and I say no. Women have never (almost) played BASEBALL> They might have played softball but that's different. They might have watched 10,000 ML games but that's not the same as playing it.

IMHO women lack the knowledge to be able to handle the strategic nuances of the game (few men do also). They lack the ability to judge skills of individual players. They lack the ability to gain the trust of the players. They lack the ability to be able to relate to the umpires. They would have trouble handling the travel necessitated by the 162 regular season schedule, the playoffs, the WS and ST without having female comaradie like the males would have the male companionship.. Their emothinal makeup wouldn't allow them to handle situations with the aplomb that Joe Torre does; and finally the ball club couldn't afford to supply them the Kleenex for all the tears they would shed over the course of the season.

If this were a poll, my guess is that 99% of the males would agree with me and 80% of the females would think that they would be able to manage a team.

Andy

[#1PaFan]

I can only think of one "tool" that we don't have and you can play with it while you get your own damn beer.

Who are you? Alan Alda? Trying to get a date for next weekend?

Calm down, Sparky. A woman couldn't even handle "bullpen coach" duties. Not at this level. Not at any professional level.

It ain't going to happen and your great-grandchildren ain't gonna see it happen, no matter how much you watch the Sci-Fi Channel.

Well, I kind of take that back. A bull-like Woman may get the chance to coach in the bullpen in the next 50 years. And, she'll probably fail.

Now, put on your speedo and go to the beach.

[#1PaFan]

I think men and women are different and have different natural skills. I could never be as nurturing a mother as my beautiful wife. My kids are lucky to be alive after a night alone with me. Conversely, even though she's a West Point grad and was a very successful Army officer for about 7 years, she chose the life of a mother over life in the Army - and she would not have cut it in combat arms even though she can out run and out work most of the guys i know. Men and women are different...why do so many try to fight it? Even the smartest baseball womyn would have trouble managing a team...she might be brilliant at making the right calls, but she would not survive the myriad of other tasks required of the job - notably the interpersonal nuances of leadership in a very type A environment, fighting the press stereotypes, etc.

You nailed it much more eloquently than I ever could have.
Now, one of you little girlies grab Dan, Nome & me some beers!

[ChinMusic]

Not all managers were MLB players. So why are you saying that a woman could be good with an IBM type company but not an MLB team?? Back up what you are saying and tell us why.

How bout you back up what your point is, and tell us why a woman could.

[TheManKnownAsMecca]

Not all managers were MLB players. So why are you saying that a woman could be good with an IBM type company but not an MLB team?? Back up what you are saying and tell us why.

Athletes are very arrogant and would not take to a woman being their manager IMO. Also, many baseball managers played baseball at some level. Women play softball and that's completely different. It's not that a woman couldn't be a good manager, it's that they'd never get a fair chance.

[Archer1979]

I think it's a great idea!

I would pay extra to see a female manager go off on an umpire.

Edit: We should really lobby for women umpires as well if this were to happen. The chest protectors would have to be reworked, other than that...

[West Texas]

Lou?? Yeah, his word is gospel to me. What a jerk.

[Jace]

Women probably think Lou Pinella doesn't know enough to intelligently comment about them. lets settle it by cage match

[yankeebot]

Women probably think Lou Pinella doesn't know enough to intelligently comment about them. lets settle it by cage match

I thought about being in a cage with Lou then my mind wandered into the gutter then I threw up in my mouth a little. Pass.

[35Knucklecurve]

Who are you? Alan Alda? Trying to get a date for next weekend?

Calm down, Sparky. A woman couldn't even handle "bullpen coach" duties. Not at this level. Not at any professional level.

It ain't going to happen and your great-grandchildren ain't gonna see it happen, no matter how much you watch the Sci-Fi Channel.

Well, I kind of take that back. A bull-like Woman may get the chance to coach in the bullpen in the next 50 years. And, she'll probably fail.

Now, put on your speedo and go to the beach.

So does that mean a male who coaches a woman's team wears a bikini and carries lipstick in wallet? If a woman can be the commander of a space shuttle crew, fly combat missions in Iraq or be a state trooper, she can handle bullpen duties.....and bull in general. If it weren't for us, you wouldn't be here to tell us what we supposedly cannot do.....buddy.

[4bronxbombers]

So does that mean a male who coaches a woman's team wears a bikini and carries lipstick in wallet? If a woman can be the commander of a space shuttle crew, fly combat missions in Iraq or be a state trooper, she can handle bullpen duties.....and bull in general. If it weren't for us, you wouldn't be here to tell us what we supposedly cannot do.....buddy.

I wouldn't even bother responding...if you see the ignorance in some of these posts (Nome in particular), it's not even worth getting into it with some of these posters.

[YankeePride1967]

So does that mean a male who coaches a woman's team wears a bikini and carries lipstick in wallet? If a woman can be the commander of a space shuttle crew, fly combat missions in Iraq or be a state trooper, she can handle bullpen duties.....and bull in general. If it weren't for us, you wouldn't be here to tell us what we supposedly cannot do.....buddy.

I think you need to read a few more of George's posts before taking him seriously here

[b-ball-lunachick]

George will never be accused of being politically correct. And I might be an old dinasaur. But the question is can a woman be successful at a ML level and I say no. Women have never (almost) played BASEBALL> They might have played softball but that's different. They might have watched 10,000 ML games but that's not the same as playing it.

There have been plenty of coaches/managers in sports who haven't professionally played the game they were coaching -- Jeff Van Gundy and Lawrence Frank come to mind immediately...I don't think that's a pre-requisite for managing a team although understanding a player and what they're going through can definitely be a plus...but it's required.

IMHO women lack the knowledge to be able to handle the strategic nuances of the game (few men do also). They lack the ability to judge skills of individual players. They lack the ability to gain the trust of the players. They lack the ability to be able to relate to the umpires. They would have trouble handling the travel necessitated by the 162 regular season schedule, the playoffs, the WS and ST without having female comaradie like the males would have the male companionship.. Their emothinal makeup wouldn't allow them to handle situations with the aplomb that Joe Torre does; and finally the ball club couldn't afford to supply them the Kleenex for all the tears they would shed over the course of the season.

are you serious here Nome? I can't think you are serious here...

[b-ball-lunachick]

Hoo boy, Lou. Way to shoot yourself in the foot with this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/ma...in&oref=slogin

I'm trying to put this in context. The way he says it, I wonder if it's a jab at women or a jab at sportswriters in general, the people who secondguess him. (Does he feel that way about male sportswriters, too?) Good for Deborah Solomon to abandon ship before he got himself into more trouble. I want to argue knee-jerk "oh my god, this is an OUTRAGE!", but it's not like misogyny is new in sports, or something that'll go away soon.

I would be interested in hearing why he thinks that way, though. Because women don't play baseball? Or simply because women don't think the way men do and couldn't identify? I don't know, and I'm not sure what to say other than the way things are going on the Cubs right now, he'd be wise to keep his mouth shut.

I agree that I would like to hear his explanations...the PC way to answer that while staying true to his belief would have been to say it would be extremely difficult to get all of those guys to respect a woman enough in that position as most managers have had experience playing the game at the professional level..

I think it would be extremely tough for a woman to handle that job and do it well...but it doesn't have anything to do with the X's and O's -- it has to do with getting the guys on that team to buy in to their opinions, rules, evaluations, etc..the rest I think they could do fine with if it's the right person...

[pleasepassthesoup]

I believe that a woman could handle the strategic aspects of being a manager just fine. Intellectually, I don't think there's a difference between men and women.

However, I've heard before (when Blue Jays players were having issues with Carlos Tosca), that players don't respect managers who haven't played professionally before (majors or minors). They don't believe that the manager understands their situation and are less willing to listen to them.

This has nothing to do with gender, but until a female at least plays ball in the minors, I don't see a woman managing. Players wont respond to anyone, male or female, who hasn't played professionally.

[jimmyclark]

Has any NBA team ever considered a successful female coach from the WNBA or the NCAA? Even as an assistant coach? I think the key questions is would the players accept her? I think in baseball strategy by a manager is overrated unless you are as stupid as Maury Wills. The key is to set the right tone and make the players THINK you know what you are doing. I think a woman could manager but I also think a lot of players would resist many female candidates. 20 years ago there were players like Bob Knepper and anonymous Mets players openly questioning the idea of a female umpire. Two years ago Formula 1 head boss Bernie Ecclestone, McLaren boss Ron Dennis and Honda driver Jenson Button were very skeptical of a female like Danica Patrick driving in F1. Bernie said she should be painted white like a refrigerator (??) and Jenson said mechanics would be trying to peer down her firesuit to see her breasts (they can't check out the Paddock Girls or Flavio Briatore's model girlfriends like Heidi Klum??).

[fredgmuggs]

I've always thought it's interesting that men coach women's basketball but not visa-versa.

I don't see what the big deal is. In one way or another, men have always taken orders from women.

[35Knucklecurve]

I've always thought it's interesting that men coach women's basketball but not visa-versa.

I don't see what the big deal is. In one way or another, men have always taken orders from women.

Thank you, sir.

You need look no further than Jackie Robinson to know that all things are possible when it comes to baseball.....or life. Maybe one day, there won't even be a need for a thread like this.....but it's still fun to argue.

[TheYankee]

So, in your opinion, a former member of the AAGPBL or the Colorado Silver Bullets might make a good manager one day.

I know a woman who played for the Silver Bullets... she currently is an assistant softball coach for a major Division I college program... she'd be an excellent manager. However, being an excellent in-game manager is only half the trick. You have to have the respect of the players as well, which is nearly impossible to do as a woman I believe...

[RhodeyYankee2638]

He may have said it abbrasively, but its true. Does anyone honestly think 40 male athletes are going to listen to a woman? I'm not even taking into account lake of ML experience. Torre is considered one of the best backstage managers, yet he has a lot of trouble keeping his crew together. If you honestly think this would work out, you are being very naive. I equate it to having an 18 year old baseball prodigy managing. He may be a genius, but do you honestly think anyone will listen to him?

[YASS]

I've always thought it's interesting that men coach women's basketball but not visa-versa.

I don't see what the big deal is. In one way or another, men have always taken orders from women.

On the other hand, there are very, very few women playing baseball, even less who do so at a high level of competition. That makes baseball vs. basketball comparisons seem a little unsuitable.

I have no objection to women managing baseball teams, but I think it'll be tough to find candidates who have immersed themselves sufficiently in the game (especially as a player) unless women's baseball grows a great deal as a sport.

[Rocketman]

I don't think a woman manager would make much sense in major league baseball. A general manager, sure. An in-game manager? The same person who sits in the locker room with these guys, who talks to them man to man when there's a problem, a father figure to the young ones and a confidant to the older ones?

I think in this case, gender does matter.