Change conditioning and strength coaches

[TEPLimey]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...n_wreck-3.html
http://www.waswatching.com/archives/...miller_no.html

The proof is in the pudding.

Well, one article is just a quote of the other. And the "proof" here, if you actually read the article, is merely one player's subjective opinion coupled with coincidental injuries to some other players. The writer tries to draw a parallel between the two, but I (along with Cashman and others) don't see it.

These articles would be more aptly titled "One Player Doesn't Like New S&C Program."

[27IsNext]

I'm all for seeing the plan evaluated and there may be a need for some changes but neither of those links provide anything that remotely resembles proof that the program should be abandonned.

If a team predominantly made up of players who have been in the big leagues over ten years has so many of these said players either ignoring or rejecting the program, and that's coupled with an unusual rash of injuries related to muscle, that should tell you all you need to know.

[Yankees1962]

If a team predominantly made up of players who have been in the big leagues over ten years has so many of these said players either ignoring or rejecting the program, and that's coupled with an unusual rash of injuries related to muscle, that should tell you all you need to know.

It can tell you that, but I'm not one to jump to conclusions especially based on scenarios formulated by a New York tabloid sports writer.

[27IsNext]

Which players and how many, especially those that have their own trainers?

Are you saying that because the one player spoke on the condition of anonymity, that the quote was fabricated?

[OldYankeeFan]

I have yet to see a copy of his resume. I cannot refute or support this fact (and neither can you) without seeing the same. Do you know if he graduated from 7 of the top strength and conditioning programs in the country, followed by an internship at a prestegious S&C program, then supplemented by an online degree? No? I see.

He has been working in a country club the past 9 years. Why?

[27IsNext]

Well, one article is just a quote of the other. And the "proof" here, if you actually read the article, is merely one player's subjective opinion coupled with coincidental injuries to some other players. The writer tries to draw a parallel between the two, but I (along with Cashman and others) don't see it.

These articles would be more aptly titled "One Player Doesn't Like New S&C Program."

I sure as heck would be concerned if players on my team were openly questioning the regimen. Using their own trainers is one thing, but this tells me that a good number of our guys openly don't buy into it.

[TheSlenderPanamanian]

I think this is a simple anabolic steroid deficiency. Damn testing...

[JavyVazquezIsSick]

I think this is a simple anabolic steroid deficiency. Damn testing...

Smoke crack much?

[TEPLimey]

He has been working in a country club the past 9 years. Why?

What were his duties as at the club? What were the benefits? There could be any number of reasons that don't yield the conclusion that he's incompetant.

[Yankees1962]

Are you saying that because the one player spoke on the condition of anonymity, that the quote was fabricated?

As I stated before and I'll do so again, I need more information before I start making any conclusions despite those articles you quoted.

[OldYankeeFan]

I think this is a simple anabolic steroid deficiency. Damn testing...

LOL...and he is the "director of performance enhancement."

[yankeebot]

If a team predominantly made up of players who have been in the big leagues over ten years has so many of these said players either ignoring or rejecting the program, and that's coupled with an unusual rash of injuries related to muscle, that should tell you all you need to know.

Then we just have to agree to disagree because I don't see that either of those articles tell me anywhere near all I need to know.

[TEPLimey]

I sure as heck would be concerned if players on my team were openly questioning the regimen. Using their own trainers is one thing, but this tells me that a good number of our guys openly don't buy into it.

Yes, and if some players don't like the program, then Cash should look into it. I agree with that 100%.

I just refuse to go from there to leaping to the conclusion that this program caused these muscle injuries. Particularly when the logic is oversimplified.

"I had a different flavor coffee this morning and I missed my train this morning. Therefore, my new coffee caused my lateness." Yeah, maybe it took longer to brew. Or maybe my train was early or I took too long shaving. One does not necessarily yield the other.

[27IsNext]

As I stated before and I'll do so again, I need more information before I start making any conclusions despite those articles you quoted.

Okay, just wanted to establish whether or not you thought the beat writer was fabricating.

[yanksrule69]

I'd really like to know the reason Mangold was fired.

I don't believe all the injuries are just coincidence especially when Miller is saying things like, "I've been able to come in here and really change the whole department around," he said. "Anything we can justify, we get."

[27IsNext]

Yes, and if some players don't like the program, then Cash should look into it. I agree with that 100%.

I just refuse to go from there to leaping to the conclusion that this program caused these muscle injuries. Particularly when the logic is oversimplified.

"I had a different flavor coffee this morning and I missed my train this morning. Therefore, my new coffee caused my lateness."

Of course no one can say "for sure" that this program led to it. But the circumstancial evidence is hard to ignore.

I look at it this way: The New York Yankees, being the richest organization in baseball, should have cream of the crop conditioning--the best that can be offered. Are they receiving the absolute best?

[TEPLimey]

Of course no one can say "for sure" that this program led to it. But the circumstancial evidence is hard to ignore.

I look at it this way: The New York Yankees, being the richest organization in baseball, should have cream of the crop conditioning--the best that can be offered. Are they receiving the absolute best?

I dunno. Are they?

New programs will always need to be tweaked when implemented, but for all we know this is a revolutionary program. Patience is a virtue.

But I truly take issue with definiteve conclusions based on circumstantial "evidence" that most like amounts to nothing more than coincidences unrelated to the S&C program.

[OldYankeeFan]

What were his duties as at the club? What were the benefits? There could be any number of reasons that don't yield the conclusion that he's incompetant.

Never said he is incompetant. What I said was...

Two muscle injuries = coincidence

Three = a trend

Four = pattern

Six Seven = Freakin' time to get a new strength and conditioning coach


And...

Cashman has to be more accountable for this one. (as to why the hire based on Miller's experience and background... if Cash had good reason for the hire he should have disclosed it by now).

[TEPLimey]

Never said he is incompetant. What I said was...

Two muscle injuries = coincidence

Three = a trend

Four = pattern

Six Seven = Freakin' time to get a new strength and conditioning coach

And...

Cashman has to be more accountable for this one. (based on Miller's experience and background).

Yeah, and what I said was that this analysis is a gross oversimplification from which no such conclusion can be drawn. You want to talk hamstring injuries, lets do it. If you want to talk "muscle injuries" then we might as well throw broken legs in there and call it "injuries" because it is not a proper group to lump together for S&C analysis.

[justinvarnes]

ISo your argument is basically, better safe than sorry? I can accept that. I don't agree with it, but I see the logic.

As long as your recognize that the evidence that S&C was at fault is entirely circumstantial and that these injuries could have been caused by many other factors, the majority of which were outside of Miller's control, then I am fine with your argument.

Then again, I don't think you can run a team or a business that way, but you are entitled to your admittedly reasonable opinion.

Yeah that's my argument: For whatever the reason, the players are pulling hamstrings like crazy. It seems like too much of a risk to continue an experiment with a new program of conditioning. The purpose of this guy's job is to prevent what has afflicted 20% of the team.

So I would would err on the side of caution and change the routine. Maybe not even fire Miller, but at least change the conditioning program.

Bolded #1: In both my posts on this, I have stated that what we have is circumstatial evidence. No one here knows why Wang's injury happened, or what could have prevented Hughes' injury from happening. Pitchers overstride, and pitchers run in ST. Happens all the time.

My point is simply that at some point, you must look at a series of events and judge whether it is bad luck or if there is a common thread that runs through. The circumstantial evidence points to one thing: A team full of players who are using a brand new conditioning routine are having hamstring troubles.

For me when we reached 5 players - and the alarm going off when one is Hughes - that was it for me in terms of just praying this is all a bad string of luck.

That's why I asked: what is your number for taking some kind of action? Is it 7? 10?

I know that seems like a silly question, and obviously i didn't pick out the number 5 before it happened, but that's when my internal alarm went off.

So, if Wang goes back down with a hammy injury, and Pettitte does too, would that be enough? Or would it need to be someone in great shape like A-Rod or Jeter?

Lord knows Giambi is no help. His hamstrings are more worn out than Bernie's old guitar strings.

So, yes, I believe I am hitting the "change" button before you are, and that is based on the circumstantial evidence. I full admit that this may be some Twilight Zone set of events.

I'm just not willing to bet the rest of the Yankees on that.

[Yankees1962]

Never said he is incompetant. What I said was...

Two muscle injuries = coincidence

Three = a trend

Four = pattern

Six Seven = Freakin' time to get a new strength and conditioning coach


And...

Cashman has to be more accountable for this one. (as to why the hire based on Miller's experience and background... if Cash had good reason for the hire he should have disclosed it by now).

Cashman will be held accountable by his boss not you nor I.

[TEPLimey]

Yeah that's my argument: For whatever the reason, the players are pulling hamstrings like crazy. It seems like too much of a risk to continue an experiment with a new program of conditioning. The purpose of this guy's job is to prevent what has afflicted 20% of the team...
[clipped]
...So, yes, I believe I am hitting the "change" button before you are, and that is based on the circumstantial evidence. I full admit that this may be some Twilight Zone set of events.

That's fair enough. I think you have to consider that Wang's injury occurred when he was doing something outside of Miller's program (running) and Damon/Matsui hurt themselves while tightened up in arctic conditions - so the number should be less than 5. But I think we can agree that you're just hitting the change button before I would. Reasonable minds can disagree here.

[yankeebot]

Miller's program did not eliminate running. It just de-emphasized it. So I don't think there are any conclusions to be drawn from how Wang's injury occurred.

[OldYankeeFan]

Miller's program did not eliminate running. It just de-emphasized it. So I don't think there are any conclusions to be drawn from how Wang's injury occurred.

I agree. In any one instance there is no conclusion to be drawn. But when a new program is initiated by a new S&C coach and so many related injuries occur in such a short time frame I do believe conclussions can and should start to be drawn.

[TEPLimey]

I agree. In any one instance there is no conclusion to be drawn. But when a new program is initiated by a new S&C coach and so many related injuries occur in such a short time frame I do believe conclussions can and should start to be drawn.

Its your perogative to draw conclusions about injuries without any basis to support the premise that the strength and condition program had any effect on them whatsoever. I prefer to reserve judgment, particularly when these injuries are unrelated, despite unsupported claims to the contrary. An oblique is not a hamstring is not a leg bone.

And all this ignoring the circumstances in which many of these injuries occurred.

[GiambiRocks]

Pro strength and conditioning is about gaining respect. All those guys got there without you. In baseball, all of them have become multi-millionaires without you. You need to establish how you can help not change total programs

[TheYankee]

Its your perogative to draw conclusions about injuries without any basis to support the premise that the strength and condition program had any effect on them whatsoever. I prefer to reserve judgment, particularly when these injuries are unrelated, despite unsupported claims to the contrary. An oblique is not a hamstring is not a leg bone.

And all this ignoring the circumstances in which many of these injuries occurred.

Thank you, this is my point. While I think the new system is... well... different, I'm in no academic or medical way qualified to decide whether it's the reason for the injuries.

[GiambiRocks]

That Yoga teacher the Rays hired in Spring Training is sounding pretty good right about now...

Yoga has a lot to offer and a lot of it can ruin athletes.....very double edged.

[aeromac76]

Time to fire the guys..
Look I do not oppose change, but only a fool does not change his mind when he is proven wrong..
What we are doing is not working. I have no idea what % of fault lies with these guys, but we have a problem and it needs to be addressed, or we will be watching Octiber baseball from home this year..

Do what needs to be done, and poll the players if need be, but a change is needed

[TEPLimey]

Pro strength and conditioning is about gaining respect. All those guys got there without you. In baseball, all of them have become multi-millionaires without you. You need to establish how you can help not change total programs

I believe that this was the argument raised in several different venues. For example, the Yankees are one of the first teams to branch out into the international player market, even thought they were fielding decent teams domestically. LaRussa fought the established baseball thinking and created a closer rule. On a broader scale, the government in Brown v. Bd. of Ed. of Topeka argued that the status quo was fine too...

The evolution of society is premised on the idea that new methodology can be introduced and that the superior between the old and new will prevail. Indeed being the first to implement such methodologies gives you a competetive advantage and is the definition of "cutting edge."

[TheYankee]

Time to fire the guys..
Look I do not oppose change, but only a fool does not change his mind when he is proven wrong..
What we are doing is not working. I have no idea what % of fault lies with these guys, but we have a problem and it needs to be addressed, or we will be watching Octiber baseball from home this year..

Do what needs to be done, and poll the players if need be, but a change is needed

You waver back and forth. First you say, "Fire them, only a fool doesn't change his mind when he is proven wrong..." then you say, "I have no idea what % of fault lies with these guys..." Well, then how do you know they should be fired?

[OldYankeeFan]

Its your perogative to draw conclusions about injuries without any basis to support the premise that the strength and condition program had any effect on them whatsoever. I prefer to reserve judgment, particularly when these injuries are unrelated, despite unsupported claims to the contrary. An oblique is not a hamstring is not a leg bone..

Exactly how are 4 hammy injuries unrelated... because they happend to different players in different weather conditions?

No one (except you) compared a leg bone to a hammy. But a hamstring is a hamstring is a hamstring is a hamstring . That's 4 hamstrings in a very short amount of time after changing S&C coaches and implementing a new program. That my friend is more than coincidence...it's a pattern.

And all this ignoring the circumstances in which many of these injuries occurred

How do the circumstances differ from that of every other ML team that has no hammy injuries so far this year.

[TheSlenderPanamanian]

Yoga has a lot to offer and a lot of it can ruin athletes.....very double edged.

What would the downside be?

[TEPLimey]

Exactly how are 4 hammy injuries unrelated... because they happend to different players in different weather conditions?

No one (except you) compared a leg bone to a hammy. But a hamstring is a hamstring is a hamstring is a hamstring . That's 4 hamstrings in a very short amount of time after changing S&C coaches and implementing a new program. That my friend is more than coincidence...it's a pattern.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance. It happens with every strength and condiditoning program. Why? Because your muscles tighten in the cold, which makes them easier to pull. I have yet to see any program that can prevent this, which is why baseball players typically don't play baseball in the snow.

Hughes injured himself by putting extra into his throw. First, it is not clear that he was even on Miller's program. Second, even assuming he was, the fact that he was on it for 70+ days without injury suggests that the program did not cause the injury. The fact that he pitched 6 innings without injury that day suggests that the program did not cause the injury. Very simply look at it this way:
-Program alone: no injury
-Program plus overthrowing: injury

The logical conclusion is that there was no injury incurred by Hughes due to the program and, absent any other evidence, I don't see how you could feasibly argue otherwise.

Wang injured himself running which is, in fact, de-emphasized by the new program. How you can blame Miller because Wang pulled something jogging around the field duringearly Spring Training is beyond me.

The only "pattern" that I see is that when you play baseball in the snow or try to overthrow your pitches you are more prone to hamstring injury, irrespective of the S&C program you use. Unless Miller can control the elements and/or Hughes's pitching mentality, I think he has very little to do with this pattern.

How do the circumstances differ from that of every other ML team that has no hammy injuries so far this year.

A lot of teams have had a lot of injuries this season. As they do every season. I'd chalk it up to chance and, to some degree, scheduling.

[yankeebot]

We also do not know if Wang, Moose and Damon are on Miller's program. IIRC, one of the articles quoted here earlier noted that some of the veterans have chosen to stick with their established training routines.

[shroud]

Hold on a second, with the lack of healthy hamstrings and the advances in medical science... Is a hamstring transplant possible? I mean Pavano has two (aparently) healthy hamstrings and god knows he loves rehabbing...

[TEPLimey]

We also do not know if Wang, Moose and Damon are on Miller's program. IIRC, one of the articles quoted here earlier noted that some of the veterans have chosen to stick with their established training routines.

...or Matsui or Hughes (may have still been on AAA program).

An excellent point.

[OldYankeeFan]

Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance.

Then why did NO other player on the teams the Yankees were playing (in the exact same conditions) not have one hammy problem?

...your muscles tighten in the cold, which makes them easier to pull. I have yet to see any program that can prevent this, which is why baseball players typically don't play baseball in the snow.

So that's the reason baseball is not played in the snow...to prevent hamstring pulls? Really?

And how is it that football players play in the snow and -10 degrees and rarely suffer hamstring pulls in those conditions?

[GiambiRocks]

What would the downside be?

With yoga and pilates is the tremendous amount of lumbar hyperextension that occurs; This is the LAST thing you want at the lumbar spine.

[TEPLimey]

Then why did NO other player on the teams the Yankees were playing (in the exact same conditions) not have one hammy problem?

lol... Is this a serious question?

Maybe because not every person is built the same and they were moving differently throughout the game?

What, are you telling me that to show you that a hammy will tighten in the cold, everyone in the cold must have a hammy injury? Too funny. What you've just said was "aside from the players who got hammy injuries, how come no other players got hammy injuries."

So that's the reason baseball is not played in the snow...to prevent hamstring pulls? Really?

That's not what I said, but I would assume that one of the reasons that they don't play baseball in the snow is to reduce injuries - so, in a way, yes.

And how is it that football players play in the snow and -10 degrees and rarely suffer hamstring pulls in those conditions?

A) Football and baseball are very different sports that require both a different skill set and different movements

B) If you think that players "rarely suffer hamstring pulls" in football, then you are watching the wrong football

These arguments are getting ridiculous. You're really reaching here. At least your earlier arguments were cogent.

[OldYankeeFan]

These arguments are getting ridiculous. You're really reaching here. At least your earlier arguments were cogent.

Makes just as much sence as

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance.

Sorry, but it is NOT a VERY COMMON occurrance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPLimey
...your muscles tighten in the cold, which makes them easier to pull. I have yet to see any program that can prevent this, which is why baseball players typically don't play baseball in the snow.

Yes you did say it.

[TEPLimey]

Sorry, but it is NOT a COMMON occurrance

Depending on your definition of common, but you're arguing semantics.

Risk factors for a hamstring pull include "activity that requires bursts of speed" and "cold weather." http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetCo...chunkiid=11820

Plenty of players have had injuries to their muscles due to an inability to get loose. Its more common to get a hamstring injury in the cold than in the warm. As a result, cold-weather is a risk factor. I really thought this was common knowledge.

http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/hss...s/2005_04.html

Cold weather hurt sprinters and shot put and discus throwers. Like baseball and softball, the fear is pulled muscles, especially hamstring injuries which take so long to recover

And another article points out that you are wrong about the lack of early-season injuries here
http://bruce.mlblogs.com/bruce_marku...bunts_a_3.html

As Joel Sherman of the New York Post pointed out in his enlightening Sunday column, a record number of 107 players began this season on the disabled list, a stunning 42 per cent increase from day one of the 2006 season. Those numbers have only grown since Opening Day... What are the reasons for the increasing numbers of idle and injured? The cold weather might be a factor ... I think two larger factors are at work here. First, teams have become increasingly conservative when it comes to any kind of injury to high-priced players. If a marquee player suffers a twinge, ranging from soreness to a spasm, the immediate (over) reaction involves placing him on the disabled list. Second, we are continuing to see certain types of injuries to specific groups of players that we never used to see at the major league level.

For what its worth, the Hardball Times doesn't believe that the injuries are related to Miller's program either: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...jury-report29/

I discussed the rash of Yankees injuries with one strength and conditioning expert this afternoon and he doubts the Yankees' new strength and conditioning coaches are the blame. Chien-Ming Wang has a hamstring problem and that could be attributed to the cold weather. Carl Pavano has a long injury history and his elbow problems have nothing to do with the strength coach. Mike Mussina denies any involvement and the cold and his age (38) could be as much the blame as anything.

Yes you did say it.

What I actually said that they don't play in the snow because to avoid muscle pulls, not specifically hamstring injuries, and yes, that is a factor.

But again, you are arguing semantics to get away from the real point of the discussion.

[YankeeStripes]

Clippard had 11K's this morning. Maybe he comes up to replace Hughes.

[OldYankeeFan]

Depending on your definition of common, but you're arguing semantics.

How else can one interpret what you said ..."Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance."

That's my whole point. It is my opinion that hammy pulls are not very common injuries and when 4 happen on the same team in such a short time frame right after changing S&C coaches and implementing a new program that I would make a change. Sorry but that's my opinion.

Can I prove it was the S&C coaches fault, no, of course I can't.

Can one prove a teams losing record is the managers fault? Again the answer is no. But that doesn't mean managers don't get fired because of it. That's baseball.

And it is my opinion that we have lost enough players to make a change. You don't have to agree with my opinion, but please don't belittle it either.

[TEPLimey]

How else can one interpret what you said ..."Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance." That's my whole point. It is my opinion that hammy pulls are not very common injuries

OK, fine. They are not "very common." But you are arguing semantics still. Hamstring injuries in the cold are common enough that they should not be surprising, particularly when you play a sport where you have bursts of speed. Indeed, numerous sports analysts (some of which I quoted above) believed that the injuries had nothing to do with the trainers. Why? Because they are common enough that it didn't seem that the S&C team had any effect on the injuries one way or the other.

and when 4 happen on the same team in such a short time frame right after changing S&C coaches and implementing a new program that I would make a change. Sorry but that's my opinion.

OK, but you have to acknowledge that you are taking a leap to get from "there are injuries" to "there are injuries and its Miller's fault" because there is no evidence to support that. Indeed, the facts and circumstances suggest that it is not Miller's fault.

Can I prove it was the S&C coaches fault, no, of course I can't.

Which means you are indescriminately blaming someone for something that was not necsessarily his fault just to be able to point fingers rather than accept the reality of chance. That's called a witch hunt.

And it is my opinion that we have lost enough players to make a change. You don't have to agree with my opinion, but please don't belittle it either.

I never belittled your opinion. I was merely giving you the appropriate counter-arguments. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I can respectfully disagree.

[frostdude1]

Why cant the rest of the team just get in better shape dammit ... look at Arod and Jeets , they hardly get injured !! These pitchers only work on their arms , they should start RUNNING

[OldYankeeFan]

OK, fine. They are not "very common."

Thank you for admitting that you overstated your position.

[Byron]

OK, fine. They are not "very common." But you are arguing semantics still. Hamstring injuries in the cold are common enough that they should not be surprising, particularly when you play a sport where you have bursts of speed.

This is particularly easy to test out.

Let's take the teams the yankees were playing against on these cold days. Similar athletes, subjected to the same exact weather, playing the same exact game.

How many hamstrings were pulled by our opponents? If it were common to happen in this type of weather, and has nothing to do with our S&C, one would expect hamstring injuries to affect the players in those conditions equally.

As has been repeated ad nauseum at this point... 1 or 2 muscle injuries could be brushed aside as bad luck. But when you start seeing the amounts of muscle injuries we are now seeing on this team, you would be betraying logic and reason if you didn't start to look for connections to things other than luck. Could all of them be coincidence and bad luck? Sure, and I could win the lottery next week. But neither are very likely.

[OldYankeeFan]

This is particularly easy to test out.

Let's take the teams the yankees were playing against on these cold days. Similar athletes, subjected to the same exact weather, playing the same exact game.

How many hamstrings were pulled by our opponents? If it were common to happen in this type of weather, and has nothing to do with our S&C, one would expect hamstring injuries to affect the players in those conditions equally.

Be careful. I brought that up and this is the reply I got.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPLimey
These arguments are getting ridiculous. You're really reaching here. At least your earlier arguments were cogent.

[TEPLimey]

Thank you for admitting that you overstated your position.

You're welcome that you are correct that hamstring pulls are not "very common." That doesn't change the fact that no one has presented any evidence that Miller's program is culpable for these injuries.

Let the witch hunt continue.

Be careful. I brought that up and this is the reply I got.

Please continue to take my quotes out of context to misconstrue them.

If you look at my post you will notice that this comment was in direct response to your argument that football players don't get hamstring injuries in the cold, so baseball players shouldn't either. But please proceed.