Change conditioning and strength coaches

[OldYankeeFan]

sorry BRB

[35Knucklecurve]

The mere fact that there is controversy over strength and conditioning practices is reason enough for me to think they need to look for Miller's replacement. It just doesn't seem reasonable to hire someone who has practically no experience at the MLB level. Yes, there is a noticable increase in the number of players landing on the DL and I agree that part of the reason is that clubs are being over-protective. However, I'd rather not throw gasoline on the fire by placing the health and well-being of the Yankees in the hands someone with questionable conditioning practices.

[TEPLimey]

sorry BRB

thats ok BRH

The mere fact that there is controversy over strength and conditioning practices is reason enough for me to think they need to look for Miller's replacement. It just doesn't seem reasonable to hire someone who has practically no experience at the MLB level. Yes, there is a noticable increase in the number of players landing on the DL and I agree that part of the reason is that clubs are being over-protective. However, I'd rather not throw gasoline on the fire by placing the health and well-being of the Yankees in someone with questionable conditioning practices.

Where do you see that his practices are "questionable"? One unnamed Yankee source is hardly proof. My perception is the only reason there is a strength and conditioning "controversy" is because the NY media wants to sell papers.

[OldYankeeFan]

Please continue to take my quotes out of context to misconstrue them.

If you look at my post you will notice that this comment was in direct response to your argument that football players don't get hamstring injuries in the cold, so baseball players shouldn't either. But please proceed.

This is the post:
_________________

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPLimey
Damon and Matsui both injured their hamstrings in 30 degree weather. This is a very common occurrance.

Then why did NO other player on the teams the Yankees were playing (in the exact same conditions) not have one hammy problem?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEPLimey
...your muscles tighten in the cold, which makes them easier to pull. I have yet to see any program that can prevent this, which is why baseball players typically don't play baseball in the snow.

So that's the reason baseball is not played in the snow...to prevent hamstring pulls? Really?

And how is it that football players play in the snow and -10 degrees and rarely suffer hamstring pulls in those conditions?

__________________


You never responded to either question except with an insult.


And the first question has now been asked twice (by me and Byron) without a real reply. So let me ask it a third time...


If injuring hamstrings in 30 degree weather is a very common occurrance...then why did NO other player on the teams the Yankees were playing (in the exact same conditions) have any hammy problems?

[ZIM 2002]

Running strengthens hamstrings, which is why runners need to strengthen their quads to keep their muscles in balance. If the current program de- emphasizes running but puts more emphasis on quads, it would seem players are at risk of a muscle imbalance the other way. Also, the articles have said some players choose not to participate in the program, but if some of those who opt out are ones who don't have their own training regime, but opt out because of a distrust factor now, then we are risking more injuries.

[Octoberbaby]

Regis Philbin, on his show this morning, said he asked Cashman last week at a restaurant about the S&C coach, and this was before Hughes' injury! Cash told him the hamstring problems have nothing to do with the new S&C guy. I think Cashman needs to wake up and smell the coffee!! The team is being ruined because he doesn't want to admit he made a mistake.

[ppa79]

We should get whoever Arod's trainer is because Arod is always in great shape and never gets injured.

[primetime714]

Regis Philbin, on his show this morning, said he asked Cashman last week at a restaurant about the S&C coach, and this was before Hughes' injury! Cash told him the hamstring problems have nothing to do with the new S&C guy. I think Cashman needs to wake up and smell the coffee!! The team is being ruined because he doesn't want to admit he made a mistake.

Oh course he says that he hired the guy. He doesn't need to give George another reason to re-consider giving him all this power.

Theres not much the team can do now about the S&C as most of this is handeled in ST and before the season starts. However I guarantee you next year a close eye is going to be monitoring the program and I wouldn't be surprised to see this guy gone. Get ready for lots of running next year guys!

[TEPLimey]

You never responded to either question except with an insult.

Your question about why football players don't get hamstring injuries was asinine. I dignified it with a response nonetheless.

I repsonded to your question about why they don't play baseball in the snow (a tangent question) by pointing out that I suspect one of the reasons is to avoid injury. I also note that I would guess that this question was posed with a smart-alec intent, as I obviously didn't mean that the sole reason that the season was scheduled in the summer was to avoid hamstring injuries in my original post.

And the first question has now been asked twice without a real reply. So let me ask it a third time...

If injuring hamstrings in 30 degree weather is a very common occurrance,
then why did NO other player on the teams the Yankees were playing (in the exact same conditions) not have one hammy problem?

Answer: several teams in baseball had hammy problems presumably due to the weather. Off the top of my head and a 3 minute google search

Baldelli and Navarro both sat out after opening weekeing in NY with sore hamstrings
The KC Royals are nursing several cold-related hamstring (and other muscle) injuries including Meche
Orioles Jay Payton and Jason Repko both have cold-related hammy injuries
Cleveland Indians Victor Martinez had a hamstring pull early on, iirc
Other players with hamstring injuries: Soriano, Jared Burton, Nick Swisher, Milton Bradley, Guzman.
Arizona's Micah Owigns tweaked his hamstring running the bases in the cold the other week

I'm sure a more in-depth search would yield more, but I also note that many minor hamstring injuries also go unreported.

And as a fun added tidbit: neither Damon not Abreu use Miller's program.http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/0...-jeff-mangold/

edit: In fact, hamstring injuries were so prevalent in baseball this season that FoxSports wrote an article 2 weeks ago about the notable number of hamstring injuries in baseball this season, aptly titled "Meet Our Friend Mr. Hamstring."

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs...d_Mr_Hamstring

[OldYankeeFan]

We should get whoever Arod's trainer is because Arod is always in great shape and never gets injured.

. Excellent suggestion! Someone with proven (positive) results with a ML Ballplayer.



Wait, I changed my mind... give me the guy with NO experience or proven track recond with a ML ballplayer, That got his degree online and worked at the country club for the last 9 years. Yea, he's the ticket.

[Dynasties R Forever]

Yes, and if some players don't like the program, then Cash should look into it. I agree with that 100%.

I just refuse to go from there to leaping to the conclusion that this program caused these muscle injuries. Particularly when the logic is oversimplified.

"I had a different flavor coffee this morning and I missed my train this morning. Therefore, my new coffee caused my lateness." Yeah, maybe it took longer to brew. Or maybe my train was early or I took too long shaving. One does not necessarily yield the other.

LOL. Get a grip.

The strength and conditioing program DOES have an effect on conditioning.

That's why they have it. Duh.

[w00t J]

And how is it that football players play in the snow and -10 degrees and rarely suffer hamstring pulls in those conditions?

This is iffy territory because football is a totally different type of activity. In baseball there are long lulls between any sort of 'bursts' of activity so when say, an outfielder, does actually have to sprint that puts much more strain on the muscle that isn't properly warmed up in the same way that a football player's muscle is. In football the players - wr's mostly - hop on stationary bikes when they're not on the field to keep those legs muscles nice and warm b/c they know they are going to be sprinting repeatedly.

[fredgmuggs]

Oh course he says that he hired the guy. He doesn't need to give George another reason to re-consider giving him all this power.

Theres not much the team can do now about the S&C as most of this is handeled in ST and before the season starts. However I guarantee you next year a close eye is going to be monitoring the program and I wouldn't be surprised to see this guy gone. Get ready for lots of running next year guys!

Brings to mind the line Mickey Lolich used to say about his lack of conditioning... "you don't run the ball up to home plate".

I can't think of a subject that I could possibly be less qualified to comment on than a strength and conditioning coach, so I'll abstain from the debate.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

I can't think of a subject that I could possibly be less qualified to comment on than a strength and conditioning coach, so I'll abstain from the debate.

C'mon, that hasn't stopped so many others in the thread.

[TEPLimey]

C'mon, that hasn't stopped so many others in the thread.

Don't look at me... I have training in strength training, physiology, and sports nutrition.

But everyone is an expert on the internet.

[Michaels07]

It's painfully obvious that Brian Cashman wants to re-invent the wheel. He is neither a good evaluator of talent or expert at conditioning. He should stick to what he does best - pencil - pushing.

He belongs in a Circus sideshow as a MIDGET.

[RIYankee23]

What exactly is the new conditioning and strength coaches new program? From what I hear, it involves pitchers not running in between starts? Can anyone provide a link of the exact details and how it differs from normal programs?

[OldYankeeFan]

In fact, hamstring injuries were so prevalent in baseball this season that FoxSports wrote an article 2 weeks ago about the notable number of hamstring injuries in baseball this season, aptly titled "Meet Our Friend Mr. Hamstring."

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs...d_Mr_Hamstring

Thank you for finally proving my point. The article mentioned 9 ballplayers with hammy injuries at the time, 3 of them were Yankees.

The Yankees had 1/3 of all hammy injuries at that time, when they represent 1/30 of all teams. Putting it another way, the yankees have 10 times more hammy injuries than the average.

I know, it's just coinsidence that we have a new S&C coach with a new program and the new S&C coach has NO experience or proven track recond with ML ballplayers, who got his degree online and worked at the country club for the last 9 years. I must just be on a witch hunt.

[Yankees1962]

Deed has been done, as Miller is fired!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/sp...ts&oref=slogin

[penfold]

Miller's out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/sp...miller.html?hp

[TEPLimey]

Thank you for finally proving my point. The article mentioned 9 ballplayers with hammy injuries at the time, 3 of them were Yankees.

The Yankees had 1/3 of all hammy injuries at that time, when they represent 1/30 of all teams. Putting it another way, the yankees have 10 times more hammy injuries than the average.

Thanks for mis-reading who the article names: a non-exhaustive list of players with hamstring injuries. That does not prove anything along the lines of 1/3 of hamstring injuries in baseball are Yankees and its misleading to suggest otherwise.

Indeed, you should know that it doesn't say that considering I took the time to name several other players who had cold-related hamstring injuries, which you conveniently ignored after demanding that I answer your question. I see that when I take you to task on it (and prove you wrong) you go on to ignore it and make false claims - good approach.

I know, it's just coinsidence that we have a new S&C coach with a new program and the new S&C coach has NO experience or proven track recond with ML ballplayers, who got his degree online and worked at the country club for the last 9 years. I must just on a witch hunt.

There are any number of reasons why a player can come up with a hammy injury - we've re-ashed this several times. Your list of 8 players (2 of which didn't even work with Miller) is lacking because it doesn't take into account events over which Miller had no control (e.g., weather, extra "oomph" on pitches, etc).

A witch hunt is when you condemn someone based on no evidence whatsoever for your own piece of mind and that's precisely what you're doing. Your leap from "there are injuries" to "Miller's program caused these injuries" is entirely unsupported and by demanding that he be fired, is the very definition of a witch hunt. Its just a convenient way to blame Miller because you want to feel better by pointing the finger at someone.

Miller's out.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/sp...miller.html?hp

But I see that you get what you wanted - Miller's head. If Cashman indeed found that his methods were lacking, then it was the right move. I still argue that no one on this board was in a position to claim that it was his fault, although it very well may have been.

[Mr. Mxylsplk]

Our injury woes will surely be behind us now.

[OldYankeeFan]

Miller's out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/sp...miller.html?hp

Hmmmm, I wonder why?

[yankeebot]

He's gone so..............



.

[Yankees1962]

Thanks for mis-reading who the article names: a non-exhaustive list of players with hamstring injuries. That does not prove anything along the lines of 1/3 of hamstring injuries in baseball are Yankees and its misleading to suggest otherwise.

Indeed, you should know that it doesn't say that considering I took the time to name several other players who had cold-related hamstring injuries, which you conveniently ignored after demanding that I answer your question. I see that when I take you to task on it (and prove you wrong) you go on to ignore it and make false claims - good approach.


There are any number of reasons why a player can come up with a hammy injury - we've re-ashed this several times. Your list of 8 players (2 of which didn't even work with Miller) is lacking because it doesn't take into account events over which Miller had no control (e.g., weather, extra "oomph" on pitches, etc).

A witch hunt is when you condemn someone based on no evidence whatsoever for your own piece of mind and that's precisely what you're doing. Your leap from "there are injuries" to "Miller's program caused these injuries" is entirely unsupported and by demanding that he be fired, is the very definition of a witch hunt. Its just a convenient way to blame Miller because you want to feel better by pointing the finger at someone.

It may be a witch hunt, but the Yankees don't need that distraction so he's gone.

[yankeebot]

It may be a witch hunt, but the Yankees don't need that distraction so he's gone.

That is a very valid point.

[Yankees1962]

Hmmmm, I wonder why?

You've been screaming for blood so be happy about it.

[BRNXBMRS]

Only took losing the best prospect, but thats water under the bridge.

[ajra21]

oh well, i'm not really sure this was miller's fault but i'm kinda glad he's gone. didn't seem to be doing much good. glad he's gone before another drops.

sheessh!

[OldYankeeFan]

. Its just a convenient way to blame Miller because you want to feel better by pointing the finger at someone.

Apparently I'm not the only one doing the pointing.

[sweet_lou_14]

He's gone so..............



.

I don't think there's ever been a thread whose central assertion was more definitively (and quickly) brought to closure than this one.

That said, I'm sure this thread will live on as we discuss whoever takes over!

[RIyankee]

For our new conditioning coach, I nominate Billy Conners!!!

[Yankees1962]

That is a very valid point.

I'm not going to profess like I know the real reasons why he's gone, but to keep this issue from being a firestorm, it was the only course of action left for Cashman so the organization can focus on getting the team healthy and back on track.

[TEPLimey]

With the firing of Miller, Carl Pavano, Phil Hughes, Mike Mussina, Jeff Karstens, and Humberto Sanchez were all taken off of the disabled list and are said to be "100% ready to play" by Cashman. Yankee officials also found evidence that Miller had shot Abe Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, and Dallas's "JR," which was turned over to police on Wednesday.

www.stuff_that_I_made_up.com

[sweet_lou_14]

I'm not going to profess like I know the real reasons why he's gone, but to keep this issue from being a firestorm, it was the only course of action left for Cashman so the organization can focus on getting the team healthy and back on track.

Yeah, it's kinda like why Bush had to fire Alberto Gonzalez.

Oh, wait ...

[Yankees1962]

Only took losing the best prospect, but thats water under the bridge.

Again, you can blame Miller on those other muscle injuries, but to blame him on what happened to Hughes last night while pitching in the 7th inning is really unfair. Hughes hasn't been around the guy for six weeks until last Thursday.

[RIYankee23]

Miller hadn't worker in baseball in over 10 years. He was most recently employed at a country club before being hired to start this season. As the Times article also states; Miller was also unpopular with many players as many of them opted out of his program. When you have 4 hamstring injuries in just over a month, why take the chance with this new coach who's program could lead to even more costly injuries??? Isn't the long term health of the team more important? Why give this guy the benefit of the doubt? Who's more important to the Yankees: some inexperienced coach or Hughes, Mussina, Wang, and Matsui??

The question shouldn't be why did the Yankees fire the guy now, but why did they ever hire him in the first place!

[fredgmuggs]

For our new conditioning coach, I nominate Billy Conners!!!

What is Hopalong Cassady doing these days?

[TEPLimey]

I think its abundantly clear that several people on this forum know nothing about strength conditioning and physiology. People touting the fact that he hadn't worked in baseball for 10 years as proof that he was unqualified only supports that premise.

Yankee fans were calling for blood and got what they want.

[RIYankee23]

I think its abundantly clear that several people on this forum know nothing about strength conditioning and physiology.

Yankee fans were calling for blood and got what they want.

Poor Miller.

We've had 4 players with hamstring injuries, yet it's unfair to look at the
S & C coach. Is there anyone you won't defend?

[Yankees1962]

I think its abundantly clear that several people on this forum know nothing about strength conditioning and physiology.

Yankee fans were calling for blood and got what they want.

It's water under the bridge now, so they can go back to demanding Cashman or Torre's head depending on which person they're pissed at on whatever day.

[ojo]

When you have 4 hamstring injuries in just over a month, why take the chance with this new coach who's program could lead to even more costly injuries??? !

exactly. he's a freakin conditioning coach. they're easily found. considering he's got this new fandangled approach, it is WHY you fire him.

you can't prove it's his approach that's dropping our players.

but you sure as hell can't prove it isn't, either.

see ya dude. maybe you can get your job back off PGA blvd. LOL

[TEPLimey]

Poor Miller.

We've had 4 players with hamstring injuries, yet it's unfair to look at the
S & C coach. Is there anyone you won't defend?

No go ahead. I wish the lynch mob had George's ear. No Torre, ARod, Cashman, Mienktiewicz, Gator, we'd be entrenched in a legal battle with Giambi, Posada would be traded, along with Mo, Abreu, Wang, Cano, Moose, etc.

[RIYankee23]

No go ahead. I wish the lynch mob had George's ear. No Torre, ARod, Cashman, Mienktiewicz, Gator, we'd be entrenched in a leal battle with Giambi, Posada would be traded, along with Mo, Abreu, Wang, Cano, Moose, etc.

Why don't answer my original question and provide the exact details of Miller's program?

[OldYankeeFan]

We should get whoever Arod's trainer is because Arod is always in great shape and never gets injured.

. Excellent suggestion! Someone with proven (positive) results with a ML Ballplayer.

[TEPLimey]

Why don't answer my original question and provide the exact details of Miller's program?

Because I don't know them any more that you or any of this board does. Which goes back to my original point that people were labelling his program as insufficient without any basis to do so. But from what I read in the articles earlier in the thread about his methods, I didn't see anything that seemed wrong to me.

My point this whole time was that, based on the facts and circumstances surrounding these injuries, it didn't appear to be something that a S&C guy would be responsible for. But instead, people just said "Injuries = fault of guy who should prevent all injuries" without any thought to the nature of the injuries themselves.

[OldYankeeFan]

Yankee fans were calling for blood and got what they want.

C'mon now. When did that ever influence Cashmans decision making. Maybe, just maybe Cashman finally saw that he made an error in judgement. Can't that at least be a possiblilty?

[ppa79]

You've been screaming for blood so be happy about it.

You make it seem like he is the one that got the guy fired. Last time I checked no one is demostrating in front of Yankee stadium asking for this guy to be fired. Cashman has total power in this situation. If Cashman is truly behind Miller than he wouldn't have fired him. Why do you think we have the slightlest influence over what Brian Cashman does. Cashman fired Miller because he wanted too.

[fredgmuggs]

It's water under the bridge now, so they can go back to demanding Cashman or Torre's head depending on which person they're pissed at on whatever day.

I did get the sense that many of the same posters that want Torre fired were eager to give this guy a blindfold and a cigarette. Not all, but many.

[TEPLimey]

C'mon now. When did that ever influence Cashmans decision making. Maybe, just maybe Cashman finally saw that he made an error in judgement. Can't that at least be a possiblilty?

Absolutely. I'm I'm confident that's what he did.

You make it seem like he is the one that got the guy fired. Last time I checked no one is demostrating in front of Yankee stadium asking for this guy to be fired. Cashman has total power in this situation. If Cashman is truly behind Myers than he wouldn't have fired him. Why do you think we have the slightlest influence over what Brian Cashman does. Cashman fired Myers because he wanted too.

I wish Cashman could fire Myers. Freudian slip?