Yanks/Sox Salary/Revenue Discussion

[Lucen]

Kobayashimaru mentioned he wanted a place to discuss the differences in salary and revenue with our respective clubs, the Yankees and the Red Sox. This might help keep the Red Sox thread from being dominated by one topic, so we'll start with the facts. I'll list each player both clubs currently (as of 11/28/06) have under contract, and it'll be updated as more signings and trades take place.

This should give us a base to start with when speculating about 2007 payroll going forward. (I'm going to use Kobayashi's lists from the Matsuzuka thread to start, and I'll just double check with hardballdollars.com to make sure they're accurate. I actually changed to the cap numbers listed there.)

Edit: 1/6/07 - I removed my list and will only keep Kobay's list here. Our numbers have been so close the entire time that it's become unneccesary to keep two running tabs. After recalculating just now, our Red Sox numbers were .25 million apart and the Yankees numbers were less than a million apart as well. So we'll just go with his list going forward.

I'm also using the salary cap numbers, from the left hand column at the site. As such, I'm not going to include the posting fees of Matsuzaka or Igawa for either team. We can discuss them, but I'm starting the base numbers for the teams at their luxury tax calculations. We're not limited to that, of course.

These lists may be incorrect, incomplete or some other variation of wrong. If you notice a mistake, please correct me and I'll fix it. And if anyone can confirm any of the players I wasn't sure about above, please do so.

Updated work

KEY ASSUMPTIONS

1. position are NOT final only put wherever make sense
2. The numbers are either confirmed or STRONG estimate.
3. Cash in out include signing bonus etc
4. All none contract rookies are standardized to .38 even though some gets paid a little more for being second year.
5. The rosters are incomplete
6. Rule 5s may not make it
7. Luxury Tax not included in "Total". An estimate is made in the "Adjusted Total" section at 40% of AAV Payroll + Benefit for anything over 145.
8. Some if not all previous assumptions used between Lucen and I still holds true.
9. Please refer to post 239 for additional discussion on trades, buyouts, and AAV

 	Infield  	Cash  	AAV  	 	assumption  	
1 	Posada, Jorge 	12.00 	12.00 		Rookies 	0.38 	
2 	Giambi, Jason 	21.50 	17.40 		Luxury Tax 	40.0% 	
3 	Cano, Robinson 	0.38 	0.38 		Threshold 	148.00 	
4 	Jeter, Derek 	22.00 	18.90 		Remaining 	0.20 	
5 	Rodriguez, Alex 	15.00 	15.06 		
				
	Outfield 			
6 	Abreu, Bobby 	15.00 	12.80 			
7 	Damon, Johnny 	13.00 	13.00 		
8 	Matsui, Hideki 	13.00 	13.00 		
			
	SP 			
9 	Wang 	0.38 	0.38 			
10 	Pettitte, Andy 	16.00 	16.00 		
11 	Mussina, Mike 	11.50 	11.50 		
12 	Pavano, Carl 	10.00 	9.98 		
13 	Igawa, Kei 	4.00 	4.00 		
			
	Pen 			
14 	Myers, Mike 	1.25 	1.25 		
15 	Vizcaino, Luis 	3.00 	3.00 		
16 	Farnsworth, Kyle 	5.25 	5.67 		
17 	Rivera, Mo 	10.50 	10.50 		
18 	Proctor, Scott 	1.00 	1.00 			
19 	Britton, Chris 	0.38 	0.38 			
20 	Bruney, Brian 	0.38 	0.38 			
			
	Bench/DH 			
21 	Cabrera, Melky 	0.38 	0.38 			
22 	Phelps 	0.38 	0.38 			
23 	Mientkiewicz, Doug 	1.50 	1.50 			
24 	Nieves, Will 	0.38 	0.38 			
25 	Cairo, Miguel 	0.75 	0.75 			
				
	Other 			
	Wright, Jared 	4.00 	4.00 		
	Johnson, Randy 	2.00 	2.00 		
	Vazquez, Javier 	3.00 	3.00 		
	Miranda, Juan 	0.38 	0.38 		
				
	Remaining 40 man 	3.00 	3.00 	
		
	Total Payroll: 	191.29 	182.34 		
	Estimated Benefit 	7.55 	7.55 		
	Luxury Tax Estimate 	16.76 	16.76 		
				
	Clemens, Roger 	0.95 	1.00 		
	Other Cash Out 	0.95 	1.00 		
				
	Posting Fees 	26.00 	5.20 		
	Adjusted Total 	242.54 	212.84 		
	Red Sox: 	
	Infield 	
1 	Varitek, Jason 	9.00 	10.00 			
2 	Youkilis, Kevin 	0.38 	0.38 			
3 	Pedroia, Dustin 	0.38 	0.38 			
4 	Lugo, Julio 	9.00 	9.00 			
5 	Lowell, Mike 	9.00 	8.00 			
				
	Outfield 			
6 	Ramirez, Manny 	14.00 	20.00 			
7 	Crisp, Coco 	4.50 	5.17 			
8 	Drew, J.D. 	14.00 	14.00 			
				
	SP 			
9 	Schilling, Curt 	13.00 	13.00 			
10 	Beckett, Josh 	8.00 	10.00 			
11 	Papelbon, Jonathan 	0.38 	0.38 			
12 	Matsuzaka, Daisuke 	8.00 	8.67 			
13 	Clement, Matt 	9.50 	8.50 			
				
	Pen 			
14 	Okajima, Hideki 	1.25 	1.25 			
15 	Tavarez, Julian 	3.10 	3.35 			
16 	Timlin, Mike 	2.80 	2.80 			
17 	Hansen, Craig 	1.10 	1.00 			
18 	Delcarmen, Manny 	0.38 	0.38 			
19 	Tim Wakefield 	4.00 	4.00 			
20 	Donnelly, Brandon 	1.40 	1.40 			
21 	Hernandez, Runelvys 	0.66 	0.66 			
22 	Romero, JC 	1.60 	1.60 			
23 	Pineiro, Joel 	4.00 	4.00 			
24 	Synder, Kyle 	0.58 	0.58 			
25 	DeBarr 	0.38 	0.38 			
			
	Bench/DH 			
26 	Ortiz, David 	12.50 	13.00 			
27 	Cora, Alex 	2.00 	2.00 			
28 	Hinske, Eric 	2.81 	0.14 			
29 	Pena, Wily Mo 	1.875 1.875 			
30 	Murphy, David 	0.38 	0.38 			
31 	Mirabelli, Doug 	0.75 	0.75 			
			
	Other 			
	Renteria, Egar 	2.67 	2.67 			
	Arroyo, Bronson 	0.50 	0.50 			
				
	Remaining 40 man 	1.80 	1.80 			
					
	Total: 	145.665 	151.975 	28.14 		
	Estimated Benefit 	7.55 	7.55 	
	Luxury Tax Estimate 	5.50 	5.50 	
				
	Foulke, Keith 	1.50 	1.50 			
	Other Cash Out 	1.50 	1.50 		
				
	Posting Fees 	51.11 	8.52 	
	Adjusted Total 	211.325 	175.045

[Lucen]

If we take the Sox total as of today, and add the numbers being speculated about for the players that seem likely to sign, we should get this:

104.23 (original total)
15 (Drew)
8 (Lugo)
12 (Matsuzaka)

New total = 139.23 million.

166.99 (original total)
8 (Igawa)

New total = 177.99

I'm sure both teams will make quite a few moves between now and spring training. It'll be interesting to see how these projections change as the off season moves on.

[Rice14]

I'm sure nothing bad is going to happen in this thread.

[Lucen]

There doesn't have to be anything bad about this discussion. If anything, the numbers as they will probably stand in another two weeks will demonstrate that the Sox payroll has gone up while the Yanks have gone down. The gap has closed since last year. For the moment, at least.

[kobayashimaru]

I prorated Mats Posting fee into the Salary, which is why my number is far higher. For the same reason we include Jaret Wright's number which is technically off payroll at this point as it is up front 4 million cost (instead of 3 I had listed). Mike Mussina's number includes his buyout which we are not certain if it is included in his contract.

Clarification for those who don't understand. The league minimum number used for calculation is only as a filler as there is no other SUBSTANTIAL rumor or confirmation. It is not to assume there will be no more moves.


p.s. Thank you very much for making the thread. No need to crowd the discussion out.

[Cuban Connection]

Even with this abnormal market, I see quite a few overpaid players on those lists.

[kobayashimaru]

At this point I think it might be prudent to add in Burney's league minimum.

[Lucen]

I prorated Mats Posting fee into the Salary, which is why my number is far higher. For the same reason we include Jaret Wright's number which is technically off payroll at this point as it is up front 4 million cost (instead of 3 I had listed). Mike Mussina's number includes his buyout which we are not certain if it is included in his contract.

Clarification for those who don't understand. The league minimum number used for calculation is only as a filler as there is no other SUBSTANTIAL rumor or confirmation. It is not to assume there will be no more moves.


p.s. Thank you very much for making the thread. No need to crowd the discussion out.

I decided to keep the initial post to luxury taxable salaries. Feel free to discuss the 2007 payroll of each team with the posting fees figured in, but just be sure to include it for both Matsuzaka and Iqawa if you do.

And you're welcome for starting this. It seems like a worthy topic of discussion, and as more moves are made, I imagine it'll get its due attention.

[Lucen]

At this point I think it might be prudent to add in Burney's league minimum.

Done.

[kobayashimaru]

I decided to keep the initial post to luxury taxable salaries. Feel free to discuss the 2007 payroll of each team with the posting fees figured in, but just be sure to include it for both Matsuzaka and Iqawa if you do.

And you're welcome for starting this. It seems like a worthy topic of discussion, and as more moves are made, I imagine it'll get its due attention.

It's far more useful than people saying 200 million payroll. If we want an discussion on how "fair" or "unfair" the current MLB payroll system is. We should have a bases to discuss it from.

[Chacon]

Is Proctor heading to arb for the first time?

[Lucen]

Is Proctor heading to arb for the first time?

I'm not sure. He's not listed on the 2007 payroll, so I didn't want to add him yet. If someone can confirm his status, I'll update the list.

[gdn]

A-Rod is at 19.8?

[CTSoxFan]

I'm not sure. He's not listed on the 2007 payroll, so I didn't want to add him yet. If someone can confirm his status, I'll update the list.

Proctor is unsigned as of this moment, though the Yankees obviously control his rights. He has just barely over one year of MLB service.

Ditto for Bruney, for what it's worth.

Edit: just to clarify, neither is arbitration-eligible.

[CTSoxFan]

A-Rod is at 19.8?

That may be a tad high. His salary for '07 is $27 million, and the ballpark figure for what the Rangers are eating is usually listed at $10 million per. I'm not sure how best to figure that.

[Lucen]

That may be a tad high. His salary for '07 is $27 million, and the ballpark figure for what the Rangers are eating is usually listed at $10 million per. I'm not sure how best to figure that.

Just going by hardballdollars.com's listed salary. I used the numbers on the left side for everyone, to keep it fair. They were listed as the salary cap numbers.

[kobayashimaru]

Just going by hardballdollars.com's listed salary. I used the numbers on the left side for everyone, to keep it fair. They were listed as the salary cap numbers.

Part of the difference I think also include prorating his signing bonus and other stuff. It's not exactly the number everyone had in mined. Some of the numbers are deferred money which makes some player's number larger than it looks when we look at cap right now.

[Cuban Connection]

Contreras' original contract is up. You can take off that $3 million.

[Lucen]

Contreras' original contract is up. You can take off that $3 million.

Done.

[YankeePride1967]

I think it's safe to say both teams are big market teams that will be 1-2 in salary this year. The Yanks will have a decently big advantage, but not as much as it has been.

[scull567]

I think it's safe to say both teams are big market teams that will be 1-2 in salary this year. The Yanks will have a decently big advantage, but not as much as it has been.

Exactly. Now lock the thread.

[kobayashimaru]

Exactly. Now lock the thread.

You guys are no fun. This is the time to count every cent debate very dollar so anyone who ever brings up the words "payroll" again will know the numbers.

[simmy886]

Good thread, "payroll payroll payroll" is always thrown around, its about time we take a close look at exactly what we're talking about

[kobayashimaru]

I think it's also safe to put up Pedoria and his .33 up on the board. Sox can't hire both second and ss... There is no reason to do it either.

[Lucen]

I think it's also safe to put up Pedoria and his .33 up on the board. Sox can't hire both second and ss... There is no reason to do it either.

Good catch, fixed it.

[kobayashimaru]

Good catch, fixed it.

umm dude... where is the Paps?

That's only a little bit worse than me forgetting Mo.

[ny]

Edit: I need confirmation on the following players: Rivera, Posada, Mussina, Cano, Wang and Wright from New York, and Ramirez, Pena, Timlin, Wakefield, and Youkilis from Boston)

Mannys 18 million salary along with Posada 12 million dollar option and Mo's 10.5 million dollar option and Wakefields 4 million dollar option havent changed since they signed their contracts years ago so I would think they would be confirmed by now.

[AMYanks]

I think you used the incorrect numbers off of hardballdollars.com. The numbers on the right side, under 2007, look to be the correct payroll figures. The left side (cap figures) just looks to be the total contract divided by years (for example, Jeter signed for 10 years, $189M, and his cap is listed at $18.9M for each year.)

In the end, the total salary will probably be pretty much similar. However, using the actual 2007 payroll figure, this is what you'd come up with:

Yankees:

Abreu, Bobby 15.0
Damon, Johnny 12.0
Farnsworth, Kyle 5.0
Giambi, Jason 21.5
Jeter, Derek 22.0
Johnson, Randy 14.5
Matsui, Hideki 13.0
Mussina, Mike 13.0 (confirmation?)
Myers, Mike 1.25
Pavano, Carl 10.0
Posada, Jorge 12.0
Rodriguez, Alex 15.0
Wright, Jared 4.0
Wang .33 (confirmation?)
Rivera, Mo 10.5 (confirmation?)
Clemens, Roger 1.0
Cabrera, Melky .33
Cano, Robinson .33 (confirmation?)
Burney, Brian .33

Total: 171.07

Red Sox:

Beckett, Josh 8.0
Clement, Matt 9.5
Crisp, Coco 4.5
Foulke, Keith 1.5
Hansen, Craig 1
Hinske, Eric 5.63
Lowell, Mike 8
Ortiz, David 12.5
Schilling, Curt 13
Varitek, Jason 9
Tavarez, Julian 3.10
Ramirez, Manny 18 (confirmation?)
Timlin, Mike 2.8 (confirmation?)
Tim Wakefield 4 (confirmation?)
Pena, Wily Mo 1.25 (confirmation?)
Murphy, David .33
Delcarmen, Manny .33
Youkilis, Kevin .35 (confirmation?)

Total: 102.79

[kobayashimaru]

I think you used the incorrect numbers off of hardballdollars.com. The numbers on the right side, under 2007, look to be the correct payroll figures. The left side (cap figures) just looks to be the total contract divided by years (for example, Jeter signed for 10 years, $189M, and his cap is listed at $18.9M for each year.)

In the end, the total salary will probably be pretty much similar. However, using the actual 2007 payroll figure, this is what you'd come up with:

Yankees:

Abreu, Bobby 15.0
Damon, Johnny 12.0
Farnsworth, Kyle 5.0
Giambi, Jason 21.5
Jeter, Derek 22.0
Johnson, Randy 14.5
Matsui, Hideki 13.0
Mussina, Mike 13.0 (confirmation?)
Myers, Mike 1.25
Pavano, Carl 10.0
Posada, Jorge 12.0
Rodriguez, Alex 15.0
Wright, Jared 4.0
Wang .33 (confirmation?)
Rivera, Mo 10.5 (confirmation?)
Clemens, Roger 1.0
Cabrera, Melky .33
Cano, Robinson .33 (confirmation?)
Burney, Brian .33

Total: 171.07

Red Sox:

Beckett, Josh 8.0
Clement, Matt 9.5
Crisp, Coco 4.5
Foulke, Keith 1.5
Hansen, Craig 1
Hinske, Eric 5.63
Lowell, Mike 8
Ortiz, David 12.5
Schilling, Curt 13
Varitek, Jason 9
Tavarez, Julian 3.10
Ramirez, Manny 18 (confirmation?)
Timlin, Mike 2.8 (confirmation?)
Tim Wakefield 4 (confirmation?)
Pena, Wily Mo 1.25 (confirmation?)
Murphy, David .33
Delcarmen, Manny .33
Youkilis, Kevin .35 (confirmation?)

Total: 102.79

Mussina should still be 12.3 because of his new contract (technically it should be 11.5 since the buy out doesn't count). Hinske's contract got paid down. I'm pretty sure Ortiz is 13 million a year. I think Tavarez also had incentives kicked in.

[Lucen]

umm dude... where is the Paps?

That's only a little bit worse than me forgetting Mo.

Yikes, I deserve 40 lashes for that, heh. Fixed. As for the numbers from hardballdollars.com, can anyone confirm that the numbers on the right are more accurate? They total tax number appears to even out in the end for both sides, but if we can determine one side or the other is more relevant, I'll update the original list accordingly. I'll have to be tomorrow though.

[simmy886]

This website may help...
mlbcontracts.blogspot.com
It's very thorough and pretty clear... I'm not sure if its any more/less accurate than your hardballdollars site, but it's the one I use.

[kobayashimaru]

Yikes, I deserve 40 lashes for that, heh. Fixed. As for the numbers from hardballdollars.com, can anyone confirm that the numbers on the right are more accurate? They total tax number appears to even out in the end for both sides, but if we can determine one side or the other is more relevant, I'll update the original list accordingly. I'll have to be tomorrow though.

See the problem is both sides have their advantages. Left side is how the cap is used to calculate the luxury tax. The right is the actual dollar amount.

EXCEPT it still ignores Cash calculation because Hinske's deal was great because they got cash for the deal. The same way Abreu deal also needs to account for the fact Yankees are not paying for his last year. I say we stick with the left side because of tax calculations it also make things easier to see. The right however gets us closer to the cash flow each team spendson the players.

Both needs to be adjusted for some cash (I think the left does already do some).

[Lucen]

This website may help...
mlbcontracts.blogspot.com
It's very thorough and pretty clear... I'm not sure if its any more/less accurate than your hardballdollars site, but it's the one I use.

Thank you, I added it to my bookmarks. I'm sure that if we cross reference both lists, we can come up with some pretty accurate information.

Edit: I missed Cora resigning. Added his 2 million.

[kobayashimaru]

Thank you, I added it to my bookmarks. I'm sure that if we cross reference both lists, we can come up with some pretty accurate information.

it "should" be the same as hardball's right hand side.

[CTSoxFan]

Mussina should still be 12.3 because of his new contract (technically it should be 11.5 since the buy out doesn't count). Hinske's contract got paid down. I'm pretty sure Ortiz is 13 million a year. I think Tavarez also had incentives kicked in.

The Red Sox are only on the hook for half of Hinske's contract; the Blue Jays get the other 2.8 million. Ortiz is accurate at 12.5. Tavarez has incentives kick in THIS year if he hits a certain number of innings/games; that would trigger an '08 option at 3.85.

Wakefield is confirmed at 4.0, and Timlin is OK at 2.8. Pena is not under contract yet...the Sox control his rights, he has 3.1 years of MLB service. Last year his salary was 1.25...fair bet to say it's going to 2.0 or so?

[simmy886]

Eric Hinske inf
5 years/$14.75M (2003-07)

acquired in trade 8/06 (with Toronto paying $2,812,500 to Boston)

Boston to pay remaining 2006 salary ($1,063,525)
Boston & Toronto to split 2007 salary ($2,812,500 each)

[kobayashimaru]

The Red Sox are only on the hook for half of Hinske's contract; the Blue Jays get the other 2.8 million. Ortiz is accurate at 12.5. Tavarez has incentives kick in THIS year if he hits a certain number of innings/games; that would trigger an '08 option at 3.85.

Wakefield is confirmed at 4.0, and Timlin is OK at 2.8. Pena is not under contract yet...the Sox control his rights, he has 3.1 years of MLB service. Last year his salary was 1.25...fair bet to say it's going to 2.0 or so?

Seems like Veritek is actualy at 10 million (1 million per year in bonus + 9 million a year). Beckett is owed only 8 (2 million bonus + 6 million salary). I think Timlin is paid 3.55 though. There is a .75 deferred from last year. Pena also need a new contract number as well like CTSox said.

got to love mlbcontracts.

[kobayashimaru]

I think it's time to add the new japanese contract the red sox signed.

[Lucen]

I think it's time to add the new japanese contract the red sox signed.

Done.

[CTSoxFan]

I think it's time to add the new japanese contract the red sox signed.

Hideki Okajima p
2 years/$2.5M (2007-08), plus $1.75M 2009 club option

• signed as a free agent (from Yomiuri Giants of Japan) 11/06
• 07:$1.25M, 08:$1.25M, 09:$1.75M club option
• club must exercise 2009 option or allow Okajima to become a free agent
  
• agent: Anthony Nakanishi
  
• ML service

[kobayashimaru]

DREW TIME 14 million a year please some one tell me why he gets this much?

[YankeePride1967]

Lugo $9 million. Ka ching!

[CTSoxFan]

DREW TIME 14 million a year please some one tell me why he gets this much?

Here's a theory: he's really good.

Seriously, Baseball Prospectus just put out a "lukewarm" PECOTA projection for him, and even they have him with a .400 OBP. His power may suffer in the AL/in Fenway a bit. In this market, $14 million is surprisingly not a wacky deal.

Five years, on the other hand...hmph.

[kobayashimaru]

Here's a theory: he's really good.

Seriously, Baseball Prospectus just put out a "lukewarm" PECOTA projection for him, and even they have him with a .400 OBP. His power may suffer in the AL/in Fenway a bit. In this market, $14 million is surprisingly not a wacky deal.

Five years, on the other hand...hmph.

The problem is signing Drew is like signing Pavano or Matt Clement... Just not a good idea if you don't have depth. Sox does NOW (with Wily Mo) but rumor has it Manny could be traded. We'll have to see.

p.s. Lucen is falling asleep on the job

[Lucen]

The problem is signing Drew is like signing Pavano or Matt Clement... Just not a good idea if you don't have depth. Sox does NOW (with Wily Mo) but rumor has it Manny could be traded. We'll have to see.

p.s. Lucen is falling asleep on the job

Just got home from work. Updated the list. As for Drew's health, I don't want to spark the discussion here, so let's take that to the Sox thread.

[cmaff05]

It's 131.14 or something around there. Please re-do your math.

[Lucen]

It's 131.14 or something around there. Please re-do your math.

Not sure what I missed or goofed on, but you are correct. It's fixed.

[YankeePride1967]

Wow, not that much of a difference as of now.

[Lucen]

Wow, not that much of a difference as of now.

Even less of one... got some updated AAV numbers via a post at SoSH which gave me more accurate numbers for some of the Sox youngsters, and confirmed some of the bigger salaries. It's up to over 135 million now. And that's without DiceK. It's possible they'll try to move Lowell in a salary dump for some payroll relief... but we'll have to wait and see about that.

If anyone can confirm the cost of some of the Yankees' youngsters or confirm any of the salaries I'm not sure about, I'd appreciate it.

[marietta_soxfan]

Are the Yankees missing players on that list? The Boston list has 5 more players than the Yankees list does.