View Full Version : So who do you think is gone next year?
Here's the biggest reason Torre needs to go:
HE STARTED JARET WRIGHT IN AN ELIMINATION GAME WHILE LEYLAND WAS SMART ENOUGH TO BRING BACK HIS GAME 1 STARTER.
Poor Wang, sitting in NY.
Robertson started game 1, not Bonderman
Here's the biggest reason Torre needs to go:
HE STARTED JARET WRIGHT IN AN ELIMINATION GAME WHILE LEYLAND WAS SMART ENOUGH TO BRING BACK HIS GAME 1 STARTER.
Poor Wang, sitting in NY.
Robertson started Game 1. This was Bonderman's first appearance.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:32 PM
Here's the biggest reason Torre needs to go:
HE STARTED JARET WRIGHT IN AN ELIMINATION GAME WHILE LEYLAND WAS SMART ENOUGH TO BRING BACK HIS GAME 1 STARTER.
Poor Wang, sitting in NY.
Wang's future is more important that 1 ALDS game.
:roflmao:
Yeah, I had a brain fart.
Still, Jaret Wright!?!!?
it wouldnt be bailing out if the organization put the hold on him to leave...let's face it...i love the guy but we need better pitching than this...
moose and rj are done...hopefully rj will retire like he said he might and moose as much as i love the guy cant help us really...unless he's the no 4 which means we need BETTER pitching.
I would love nothing more than RJ retiring and that bum called pavano showing up to play sometimes...
I hope moose is done... unless he is willing to sign for 7 mil/year for max of 2 years.
I wonder why we are giving giambi a pass in all of this.
I
Wang's future is more important that 1 ALDS game.Doesn't sound like it given the tenor of the comments here.
"IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD"
"FIRE THE WHOLE TEAM"
"WHAT A LOUSY BUNCH OF PLAYERS"
"THEY ALL SUCKSWAWAHWAHWAHWAH"
nyyfan11111
10-07-06, 06:33 PM
Trade A-rod Please!!
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:34 PM
The players on Detroit sure now how to treat their fans. Thats good stuff. Good for them.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:35 PM
Doesn't sound like it given the tenor of the comments here.
"IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD"
"FIRE THE WHOLE TEAM"
"WHAT A LOUSY BUNCH OF PLAYERS"
"THEY ALL SUCKSWAWAHWAHWAHWAH"
I dont care about those folks that overreact.
Wang's future is for the next 5-10 years. 1 ALDS game is not as imprtant as that.
Cooler heads need to prevail. Even though we pulled a royal choke job in the playoffs, we can't just wash away all the success in the regular season or that coming into the PS we were the heavy favorites. This is still a good team, a WS team. We just need to retool. It begins by signing Matsuzaka/Zito and getting rid of one Joe for another Joe.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:36 PM
:roflmao:
Yeah, I had a brain fart.
Still, Jaret Wright!?!!?
Who else did they have? Cory Lidle?
Cooler heads need to prevail. Even though we pulled a royal choke job in the playoffs, we can't just wash away all the success in the regular season or that coming into the PS we were the heavy favorites. This is still a good team, a WS team. We just need to retool. It begins by signing Matsuzaka/Zito and getting rid of one Joe for another Joe.
We pulled a royal choke-job for the 5th straight year
I don't understand why people only want to trade A-Rod. If you want to axe a player for not performing in the playoffs than you should at least hold other overpaid players to that standard. Maybe it's something more than rational self-benefit driving desire to trade him? :o
BillyMartinFan
10-07-06, 06:36 PM
Sorry Joe, but I really think this is the end of the Torre era. I'd like to see someone like Piniella or Bowa take over. Someone who will light a fire under this team's collective ass. I want to see a manager in the dugout that looks awake.
Lets also consider how many good starting pitcher prospects we can get for A-Rod and Sheffield. Because thats what we need next year. Pitching and a new manager. This is a team we were supposed to plow under, not lose 3 straight to.
October is becoming a very depressing month to be a Yankee fan .:mad:
Shaun4013
10-07-06, 06:37 PM
Fire Joe Torre. He Should Have Been Fired After The Boston 2004 Collapse. Its Looooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggg Over-due.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:37 PM
We pulled a royal choke-job for the 5th straight year
We got beaten by a balanced ball-club.
Its not choking when you get deservedly beaten.
We pulled a royal choke-job for the 5th straight year
Just losing in the playoffs isn't a royal choke job.
ThePost
10-07-06, 06:38 PM
:roflmao:
Yeah, I had a brain fart.
Still, Jaret Wright!?!!?
He started game 7 in 1997...he's got the credentials.
Yankees1962
10-07-06, 06:38 PM
We pulled a royal choke-job for the 5th straight year
The Yankees got beat by the best pitching staff in the AL so I don't understand how that is a choke job.
Yankee Zilla
10-07-06, 06:39 PM
They need to get rid of:
Torre
RJ
Pavano
Wright
Mussina (cuz he has an option for 20 mill in '07)
Farnsworth
Dotel
Villone
Lidle
Sheffield
Basically most of our overpaid pitching staff. I am surprised Torre even played most of the players in game 3, it did rain the day before and you dont wanna go risking injury.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:39 PM
Just losing in the playoffs isn't a royal choke job.
03 wasnt a choke job. we pitched well, the marlins pitched well, they won, we lost. tough stuff
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:39 PM
Fire Joe Torre. He Should Have Been Fired After The Boston 2004 Collapse. Its Looooooooooonnnnnnnnngggggggg Over-due.
Why? What did he do wrong in this series?
Benjamminwithyou
10-07-06, 06:40 PM
Don't let it get to you. Look at it this way - if we had won, we'd have to hear "$200 million payroll" all winter and everything else. It's better building a team like we did in the 90s, and like the Tigers have done now. We have great talent coming up led by Hughes. We can build a young, eager, speed team around a few good players like Jeter and Cano and be right there next year. Can't do that without a chopping block first though.
I don't think i could withstand a 119 loss team
nyyfan11111
10-07-06, 06:40 PM
What can we get for A-rod? can we get ervin santana?
Yankee Zilla
10-07-06, 06:40 PM
03 wasnt a choke job. we pitched well, the marlins pitched well, they won, we lost. tough stuff
we lost in '03 because of Weaver
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:40 PM
Why? What did he do wrong in this series?
He started Gary Sheffield and put him in the cleanup spot after Sheffield had absolutely nothing, zero, to do with us winning the division.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:40 PM
What can we get for A-rod? can we get ervin santana?
Nothing, he won't accept a trade.
The Yankees got beat by the best pitching staff in the AL so I don't understand how that is a choke job.
6 runs in 3 games?
I don't care if God himself is pitching, you have to do better than that
Yankee Zilla
10-07-06, 06:41 PM
Why? What did he do wrong in this series?
the most recent "lineup shifts"
While I'm not happy with the end results at least can see that this team is still very good. This organization has made headway under Cashman in showing restraint and I feel that heading forward into the future that we are still the team to beat because now we combine unlimited resources with financial prudence and effective talent scouting. We are just getting to that point where the egregious contracts of yesteryear are being replaced with an influx of young, cheap, talent. Look for the Wrights, Pavanos, and Lidles of the world to begin being replaced by the Hughes, Clippards, and Whites.
instylz
10-07-06, 06:41 PM
I don't even know how to comment to this thread....I'm still in such a state of disbelief....We need shakeups and honestly I hope they come sooner than later.
6 runs in 3 games?
I don't care if God himself is pitching, you have to do better than that
my sentiments exactly....with the "Murderers' Row" we have, we should have done much better at least in the run production department.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:41 PM
we lost in '03 because of Weaver
in any event, it wasnt a choke. we played tough but were beaten.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:42 PM
He started Gary Sheffield and put him in the cleanup spot after Sheffield had absolutely nothing, zero, to do with us winning the division.
You honestly think that Cashman and Steinbrenner would be happy with us not playing Sheffield? So if we lost without Sheffield, you'd be placing the same blame on Torre. Sheffield is a proven player and you just can't keep a guy like that, a clutch hitter out of the lineup.
I'm actually in agreement with regards to not playing Wang. However, he could've started Lidle instead of Wright. And Sheffield should not be anywhere near the first base. He should be DH-ing and Melky should be playing left field all along.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:42 PM
6 runs in 3 games?
I don't care if God himself is pitching, you have to do better than that
Look at how they pitched!!
They hardly left a mistake over the plate.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:42 PM
the most recent "lineup shifts"
What would you have done differently?
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:43 PM
I'm actually in agreement with regards to not playing Wang. However, he could've started Lidle instead of Wright. And Sheffield should not be anywhere near the first base. He should be DH-ing and Melky should be playing left field all along.
Lidle?!?!? Lidle has been injured and can't throw his splitter. He looked terrible today.
Yankees1962
10-07-06, 06:43 PM
6 runs in 3 games?
I don't care if God himself is pitching, you have to do better than that
I'd attended my first ML game in 1960, and over the course of those years I've seen plenty of great hitting teams tamed by superior pitching performaces.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 06:44 PM
We got beaten by a balanced ball-club.
Its not choking when you get deservedly beaten.
Personally, I disagree. The Tigers are in no way a balanced ballclub, although they do have good pitching. The Yankees lost because they absolutely blew Game 2, and showed no heart in Games 3 and 4.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:44 PM
You honestly think that Cashman and Steinbrenner would be happy with us not playing Sheffield? So if we lost without Sheffield, you'd be placing the same blame on Torre. Sheffield is a proven player and you just can't keep a guy like that, a clutch hitter out of the lineup.
If Torre's considers makes it a priority to appease management rather than field the best team than he doesn't deserve a job.
Torre took the lineup that got us into the playoffs and he threw it out the window.
metalboy15
10-07-06, 06:45 PM
A-Rod is the least of our problems right now.
We need to get rid of RJ and Giambi and Wright.
I donīt think that heīs the least of our problems, but he certainly isnīt our main problem right now, thereīs no question in my mind that A-Rod is staying I donīt care what analysts, ESPN, Fox, fans, etc says, we need him!, but something has to be done to fix his supposed sour relationship with his teamates, everybody is saying that A-Rod cost us this series, thatīs just plain wrong, our table setter failed us, he was trying to jack one everytime up, his plate discipline was declining as the series went on, what happened to that guy that hit line drive after line drive the whole season? but the main reason we lost was because of the pitching and defense, they were non-existant (except for Wangīs performance), having Wright pitching in a elimination game says it all...
I agree that we need to get rid of Wright and RJ, Wright will be bought out and RJ needs to retire (please!), Hughes and Clippard (your favorite gdn :D) will be ready by August, at the lastest, so they will take their respective places in the SR.
Something has to be done with Melky, we NEED him on the baseball field, his defense and carisma certainly was missed during this series, so who goes? Matsui and Giambi certainly wonīt be gone, Sheff? might be...
Edit: I forgot someone very important, Torre, I love him to death but he needs to go, his bullpen management was out of wack this past 2 seasons and his lineups are questionable, his decision to put Matsui and Sheff in the post season roster cost us the season (along with the bad pitching), why mess with a lineup that led the league in several offensive stats (like runs scored)? I just donīt understand!
bxbomber328
10-07-06, 06:45 PM
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?
First off...
KEEP BERNIE! the Yankees did Bernie so wrong! He did great for us when we were down and out this year, and the treated him disrespectively.
MELKY CABRERA- This guy is gonna be some hitter. He needs to be in the starting lineup next year!
ARod- I've been a big supporter of his but I would really like to see us get a bigger pitching boost if we could out of him.
Randy Johnson- This guy is not Clemens! He needs to retire. Even though I've been rooting for him this whole year. But did you see his game! How the hell was that guy pitching 98-97. This could maybe be signs to come. He could be good again. I dunno. Keep my fingers crossed.
How would this starting rotation look?
(clemens- may not happen- but we need him badly)
Zito- we could get him if we don't get clemens
Wang- my man! He was probably the only Yankee who came up big in this POFFS series.
Andy Pettitte- I would love to!
Philip Hughes- he could be a 4 starter because his stats show that he can't eat up a lot of innings yet.
Randy Johnson- If he doesn't retire, we're just gonna have to deal with him.
(could we get John Smoltz? I like him to
BULLPEN
Mo- i dont have to say anything
Proctor- I think the reason he had that bad stretch was Torre's fault. He used him too much. He'd probably have an ERA under 3.
Farnsworth- get rid of him and get K-Rod as set up to Rivera, how good would that be?
Then we can go from there.
IF THERE IS ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO MAKE THIS BETTER OR HOW WE COULD GET CLEMENS, PLEASE, FELL FREE TO SAY ANYTHING.
AND BY THE WAY, I'M NEW TO THIS FORUM AND I LOOK FOWARD TO SPEAKING TO YOU GUYS ABOUT OFFSEASON STUFF.
MY #1 QUESTION IS HOW CAN WE GET CLEMENS AND MAKE OUR PITCHING BETTER.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:45 PM
If Torre's considers makes it a priority to appease management rather than field the best team than he doesn't deserve a job.
Torre took the lineup that got us into the playoffs and he threw it out the window.
:::LAUGHING::: Appease management?!? You've gotta be kidding me. Cashman and Steinbrenner wouldn't have ALLOWED him to not start Sheffield throughout the series. Plus, Sheffield was showing that he had his swing back the last few days of the season.
ColoradoGuy
10-07-06, 06:46 PM
Hopefully Torre, A-Rod and Randy Johnson.
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?
Clemens is too old. If there's one type of player we should avoid in the future it's the super-elderly. Having RJ go third is part of what got us in this mess. You see his success this year and are blinded by it only to have him secumb to age.
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?Why do the Yankees want/need Clemens back?
Iron Horse
10-07-06, 06:46 PM
Im not in any pain, Im calm. If this team fought and battled and still lost it would hurt. However it was clear from the first inning today that they dont really care. So I dont care about this group of players.
Amen, my friend. AMEN!
nnysiny
10-07-06, 06:46 PM
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?
as bad as it is now
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:46 PM
Just a note: with all of you going absolutely nuts talking about shake-ups and firings, etc., take a few minutes to calm down and think about what you're saying, and think logically about what you're saying.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:47 PM
Personally, I disagree. The Tigers are in no way a balanced ballclub, although they do have good pitching. The Yankees lost because they absolutely blew Game 2, and showed no heart in Games 3 and 4.
Thats what choking is. To come out and not show up. Had they put up a fight and kept the games close and just gotten beaten in a hard fought series, than it wouldn't have been a choke. But they became complacent after Damons homer in game 2 and failed to do anything about it... in other words, they choked.
instylz
10-07-06, 06:47 PM
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?
old...but better than RJ :) Honestly though...even if that were to happen it would just be a temp patch. We need pitching that will at least take us into the next 2-3 seasons.
TongueStripes
10-07-06, 06:47 PM
CLEMENS, CAN WE GET CLEMENS BACK!
Seriously, if we can get Clemens back, how would it be?
Now I'm really depressed....................:(
OUT-Rodriguez,Sheffield,Lidle,Wright,Farnsworth,Vallone and Torre.
Chairman-of-TheBoard
10-07-06, 06:48 PM
Why? What did he do wrong in this series?
Uh, are we talking about the same Joe Torre?
Joe Torre who (v. Kenny Rogers), pulled the right handed batting Sheffield in favor of the lefty Giambi? He DH's Bernie -- who granted, tore it up at the plate at .280 something -- and sits Melky, the kid who helped get NY where it is/was?
Torre did a horrible job and in my opinion, lost game 3 with one of the most questionable lineup decisions I have ever seen him make. Face it, the guy is mush -- his gut feelings are wrong more often than they are right!
Just a note: with all of you going absolutely nuts talking about shake-ups and firings, etc., take a few minutes to calm down and think about what you're saying, and think logically about what you're saying.
Exactly. It's important to keep in mind that a team has peaks and valleys. You are never as bad as you are when you are at the bottom and never as good as you think are when you are on the top.
yank4life2005
10-07-06, 06:49 PM
People talked about Cano moving because they thought he was too thick to stay long term at 2B. 3B was the only option, but it was far from ideal. I just don't think he has the arm to play over there, and you are talking about a major adjustment for a guy who has spent his entire career on the other side of the diamond. It's an adjustment that now would need to happen at the major league level. Beyond that, he's turned out to be at least average at 2B, so I'm not sure why you would screw with him.
Unless the Yankees throw more money on top of what Texas is paying of ARod's deal, the financial situation is exactly the same. Arod makes 25 and you get 9 from the Rangers. How does that change what you get back?
Soriano was a good player, but he was a good player who had just had a horrible postseason, who was just discovered to be substantially older than listed, and who was in line for huge arbitration rewards. Arias has blossomed since the trade. He was not the hitter he was then that he has become and was a throw in known mostly for his glove.
Cano is better than average at 2B. He is young and athletic enough to make the change and he has played other positions than 2B in his minor league career.
Yankees took on money in lieu of giving up better/more players to Texas. If NY took on all of the deal than I seriously doubt Texas would have sniffed Soriano.
Chairman-of-TheBoard
10-07-06, 06:49 PM
Could we please STOP the talk about bringing Clemens back? He can't handle the AL! He didn't look too hot in 2003, so do you people think his arm has improved with age?
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:50 PM
Personally, I disagree. The Tigers are in no way a balanced ballclub, although they do have good pitching. The Yankees lost because they absolutely blew Game 2, and showed no heart in Games 3 and 4.
Tigers are balanced as hell!!!
Great pitching + good offense + A healthy youth-veteran mix = Balance
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:50 PM
:::LAUGHING::: Appease management?!? You've gotta be kidding me. Cashman and Steinbrenner wouldn't have ALLOWED him to not start Sheffield throughout the series. Plus, Sheffield was showing that he had his swing back the last few days of the season.
Stop with the not allowing Sheffield BS. Did Sheff play yesterday? No!!!! Its Joes team to manage and Cashman wasn't going to come down to the dugout and change the lineup card if he didn't like it.
I dont care what Sheffield was showing in late september games. We had a team in place that was outstanding and was on a roll and Sheffield wasn't a part of it. When you thrust a player who hadn't played all year due to injury into the cleanup spot at the start of the playoffs and expect him to learn a new position along the way you are absolutely nuts.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:51 PM
Uh, are we talking about the same Joe Torre?
Joe Torre who (v. Kenny Rogers), pulled the right handed batting Sheffield in favor of the lefty Giambi? He DH's Bernie -- who granted, tore it up at the plate at .280 something -- and sits Melky, the kid who helped get NY where it is/was?
Torre did a horrible job and in my opinion, lost game 3 with one of the most questionable lineup decisions I have ever seen him make. Face it, the guy is mush -- his gut feelings are wrong more often than they are right!
His decisions for that game were pretty logical. Sheffield has a tough time at the plate seeing Rogers throughout his career, while Bernie is a Rogers-killer.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 06:51 PM
Lots of tough decisions.
I think, at the least, the FO needs to see what can be had for A-Rod. San Diego, LAD or Cubs would all be very interesting. Plus, I think the NYY can get more for him from an NL team.
Sheff....did anyone expect anything from him after being out most of the season? I'd bring him back...
Abreu...he's a keeper.
RJ....I'd eat salary to trade him to a West coast team..hopefully with a large park.
Wright/Pavano...whatever can be had.
The golden rule for this offseason (and any offseason) should be to never sign anyone over 32 to more than a 2 year contract. It's fool's gold. Stick to that 25-30 age range and your signings are that much more secure.
OUT-Rodriguez,Sheffield,Lidle,Wright,Farnsworth,Vallone and Torre. I
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:52 PM
Tigers are balanced as hell!!!
Great pitching + good offense + A healthy youth-veteran mix = Balance
They may be balanced. But thats no reason to not show up at all. Look at it this way. If both teams played to their full potential, the Yanks should have swept, maybe won in 4. But obviously the Yanks played nothing close to their full potential and thats inexcusable. When they needed to play their best baseball, the gave their worst and that is the definition of choking.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:52 PM
Stop with the not allowing Sheffield BS. Did Sheff play yesterday? No!!!! Its Joes team to manage and Cashman wasn't going to come down to the dugout and change the lineup card if he didn't like it.
I dont care what Sheffield was showing in late september games. We had a team in place that was outstanding and was on a roll and Sheffield wasn't a part of it. When you thrust a player who hadn't played all year due to injury into the cleanup spot at the start of the playoffs and expect him to learn a new position along the way you are absolutely nuts.
If you leave Sheff on the bench for the playoffs and play Melky instead, and still lose, it looks even worse. Melky had a nice season, but he's not that great of a player, and doesn't put up the kind of numbers a corner-outfielder needs to put up.
Sadly, GS will freak out, over-rule Cash and sell all our young talent for washed up sluggers and 40 yr old pitches.
Damning us to a wasted 2007.
/dies
Jeter Kid
10-07-06, 06:53 PM
Gone: Melky, Sheff, Bernie, Jaret, Miggy, Johnson
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:53 PM
Lots of tough decisions.
I think, at the least, the FO needs to see what can be had for A-Rod. San Diego, LAD or Cubs would all be very interesting. Plus, I think the NYY can get more for him from an NL team.
Sheff....did anyone expect anything from him after being out most of the season? I'd bring him back...
Abreu...he's a keeper.
RJ....I'd eat salary to trade him to a West coast team..hopefully with a large park.
Wright/Pavano...whatever can be had.
Can't trade RJ, no-trade clause.
Sadly, GS will freak out, over-rule Cash and sell all our young talent for washed up sluggers and 40 yr old pitches.
Damning us to a wasted 2007.
/dies
I think GS has mellowed to the point where he allows Cash another year at the helm before he does that.
Kay is ripping right now, and is 100% correct on everything. Nice to see someone not kissing ass.
puckmaster87
10-07-06, 06:54 PM
Sadly, GS will freak out, over-rule Cash and sell all our young talent for washed up sluggers and 40 yr old pitches.
Damning us to a wasted 2007.
/dies
You've got to be kidding me. What Cash has started is a process. He's building up young players. You can't expect it all to happen in one year, and Steinbrenner's way of doing things from 2002-2005 didn't help either.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 06:55 PM
If you leave Sheff on the bench for the playoffs and play Melky instead, and still lose, it looks even worse. Melky had a nice season, but he's not that great of a player, and doesn't put up the kind of numbers a corner-outfielder needs to put up.
Don't give me that argument about not putting up corner numbers. He didn't put up those numbers all year and he was still a huge part of our success. We have enough guys putting up power numbers that we don't need Melky to do that. You disrupt things when you make such a significant change at a critical time. It was a bad move. Thats all there is to it.
Just a note: with all of you going absolutely nuts talking about shake-ups and firings, etc., take a few minutes to calm down and think about what you're saying, and think logically about what you're saying.
That's really a lot to ask for:o
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 06:56 PM
Can't trade RJ, no-trade clause.
while that is true, I'd discuss where Randy may want to go and then pursue from there. It may not be possible, but I'd at least discuss this with him in hopes he might agree to a trade.
Bernie Inferno
10-07-06, 06:57 PM
Can't trade RJ, no-trade clause.
Hopefully he retires but I don't see that likely as he wants to get to 300 wins.
Yah, I hope RJ realizes he can't do it anymore and hangs 'em up.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:57 PM
They may be balanced. But thats no reason to not show up at all. Look at it this way. If both teams played to their full potential, the Yanks should have swept, maybe won in 4. But obviously the Yanks played nothing close to their full potential and thats inexcusable. When they needed to play their best baseball, the gave their worst and that is the definition of choking.
How can you say that..If both teams played to their potential. Verlander and Bonderman with have thrown shut outs.
When its all said and done..their pitching was the difference. Where we hung curves and sliders..they were throwing their curves and sliders better than they have ever thrown them in their lives.
Even in the game we won, our starter didnt really dominate. Pitching wins championships!
indianyanksfan
10-07-06, 06:58 PM
Kay is ripping right now, and is 100% correct on everything. Nice to see someone not kissing ass.
what is he saying? details please.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 06:58 PM
Hopefully he retires.
and not take the $16M check to the bank? I dont see that happening...money is the ultimate trump card, BI.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 06:58 PM
Yah, I hope RJ realizes he can't do it anymore and hangs 'em up.
agreed...
If he is honest with himself he'll retire..not for pitching reasons, but for health reasons 5-10 years from now.
indianyanksfan
10-07-06, 06:58 PM
while that is true, I'd discuss where Randy may want to go and then pursue from there. It may not be possible, but I'd at least discuss this with him in hopes he might agree to a trade.
i think they should and will pursue it...
CommerceComet
10-07-06, 07:00 PM
Unless he goes to a hitter's park look for him to continue come up short of people's expectations of him.Really? He wasn't in a hitter's park last year when he was MVP.
Lidle?!?!? Lidle has been injured and can't throw his splitter. He looked terrible today.
And Kenny Rogers was 0-3 against the Yankees with an 8+ ERA. Terrible. How do you explain the shutout?
CUJeterFan
10-07-06, 07:01 PM
A-Rod and Randy Johnson should be murdered and dumped in the East River. Then take the money and sign Matsuzaka and Zito and hire a hitman for Jaret Wright to get out of his buyout.
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 07:01 PM
A-rod for David Wright straight up :)
RIYankeeFan
10-07-06, 07:02 PM
Torre will be fired.
Girardi will probably get the call.
A-Rod will be shopped, if there is a great deal for us and he says no, he'll be even hated more. He's the black sheep. .100 in the post season doesn't win you over. It's like they say, what counts is the post season.
Mastui is our DH, pending Giambis status.
Melky gets the start in LF.
Abreu gets the start in RF.
Cano stays PUT. The front office would be stupid to trade him, even for pitching. He's our new big bat. He's young, and a farm hand. You sign him to an extension.
Bernie and RJ retire.
Wright, Lidle, Myers, Fasano, Cairo, and Wilson get the boot.
Phillips stays on the bench as a back up.
Villone gets a leash to the trade deadline.
Karstens joins the pen and long relief/spot starter, or as our 5th.
We take a look at Matsuzaka, and Zito. I'm not thrilled with Zito, but I don't think we bite if the tag is too high. Mussina has a contract reworked, we need a veteran pitcher.
Wang, Matsuzaka, Mussina, ?, Karstens.
Pending the A-Rod situation, we could have a #1, 2, or 3 pitcher; our new 3B, and some good prospects, possibly a C to split time with Jorge.
We have too many guys who are in it for the money. We need a younger team that plays defense. We need guys who play their heart out, not show up every day to collect a check. Melky, Cano, Wang, Phillips... The guys we gave a chance who showed us that you don't have to make $70 trillion a year to get the job done.
I say the Yankees are no longer the retirement team, where you're given a contract to do just that, retire.
instylz
10-07-06, 07:02 PM
Ugh,...this is going to be one long offseason. The only positive I can think of atm is BOSTON DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS!
SportzStooge007
10-07-06, 07:02 PM
Cano was projected to move to 3B by scouts since they felt he didn't the range to play 2B. He has a great arm from what I have seen on relay throws.
Hey, didn't Andy Phillips play 2B at some point in the minors?
If so, then they can trade A-Rod for pitching, move Cano to third, have Phillips play second, resign Sheffield to play first and have he and Giambi split time there.
If Cano can play third and Phillips can play second, everything looks set for an A-Rod trade.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:02 PM
A-rod for David Wright straight up :)
:o
Even the Muts arent that stupid.
A-Rod and Randy Johnson should be murdered and dumped in the East River. Then take the money and sign Matsuzaka and Zito and hire a hitman for Jaret Wright to get out of his buyout.Umm, I think that might be against CS.
newa6eoutlw
10-07-06, 07:04 PM
Arod for Dontrelle if that happens I will be happy
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:05 PM
Cubs wont trade Zambrano for A-Rod, but they would likely trade Prior. Prior and A-Ram.
Need more than just Billingsley from the Dodgers...
San Diego...maybe one of Young or Peavy and Cla Meredith for A-Rod. I'd be calling San Diego tomorrow after they lose to the Cards.
instylz
10-07-06, 07:07 PM
how soon after the end of the WS can trades be made?
silverdsl
10-07-06, 07:07 PM
A-Rod and Randy Johnson should be murdered and dumped in the East River. Then take the money and sign Matsuzaka and Zito and hire a hitman for Jaret Wright to get out of his buyout.This may be a joke but wishing injury or death on players, no matter how much you think they stink is against our community standards, which can be found here: http://www.nyyfans.com/communityStandards.php.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:07 PM
Here's what I would do.
First I would sincerely thank Joe Torre for his 10+ years of outstanding service, but tell him that his time has simply come and gone. There is something seriously wrong with the culture of the team right now. Look, I know I don't exactly hang around the clubhouse, but the team's fear of losing (vs. desire to win) is palpable. The team needs to let someone new set the tone in the locker room. I don't think a young manager like Girardi is the right answer for this veteran club. I'd go with Lou Piniella and even consider Bobby Valentine.
Why start with Torre? Because despite the sincere hopes of many on this board, there's really no practical way to get rid of Giambi, A-Rod, Pavano, Farnsworth, etc. You can't turn over the bulk of this team even if you wanted to due to no trade clauses and/or wild mismatches between salary and performance. What's necessary is to see if a new leader can make something of what's here already -- which, by the way, is still by far the most talented team in baseball.
That said, I'd do the following re players:
First, I'd let Lidle, Mussina, Villone, Fasano, Craig Wilson, and (with regret) Bernie go. (As an aside, more than anyone I blame Mussina for this loss for his failure to hold the lead in Game 2, including giving up an RBI triple to a hacker on an 0-2 count).
Second, I'd pick up Sheff's option, with an eye to seeing if there's any way I could trade him (and some cash) for some useful prospects. The free agent market is weak this year, and Sheff at 1 year and (with some NYY $$$) about $8 million would be a bargain compared to, say, Carlos Lee at 5/$75. Stock the farm and/or get a useful lefty reliever.
Third, I'd consider trading A-Rod ONLY if I could figure out a way to get back comparable value in a single player. One option would be to trade A-Rod and $$ to the Angels for top shelf prospects, and then package those (and probably a couple more bits) to Florida for Miguel Cabrera. Short of a deal like that, I keep A-Rod. Yes, he shrinks like a pecker in a cold pool under pressure, but it's kind of hard to hit 35-40 homers and drive in 120+ runs per year and NOT make a major contribution. Plus, maybe someone like Piniella or Valentine can bring out in him what Torre apparently cannot.
Fourth, I'd beg Randy Johnson to retire, even if it means buying out part of his deal. In the alternative, I'd see if he'd be willing to waive his no trade clause to go back to the NL west, and package a bunch of cash with RJ in hopes of getting a bulk pack of sunflower seeds in return.
Finally, on the pitching front, I'd take Mussina and Sheff's money (assuming we don't pick up his option) and get Zito and Matsuzaka (sic?). I'd also pick up Wright's option (given he has a $4mm buyout, Wright for $3mm is a bargain insurance policy).
If all breaks well, we'd end up with:
Infielders:
Giambi
Cano
Jeter
Miguel Cabrera or A-Rod
Cairo
B/U first baseman (Phillips?)
Outfielders:
Matsui
Damon
Abreu
Melky Cabrera
Kevin Thompson
Aaron Guiel
Catchers:
Posada
Anyone by Fasano
Starting Pitchers:
Wang
Zito
Matsuzaka
Wright (when he gets injured, sub Karstens/Clippard/Hughes)
Pavano (until he proves he can pitch at all, at which point I trade him and sub Hughes)
Relievers:
Rivera
Farnsworth
Proctor
Bruney
Myers
Dotal (low base contract with incentives; when/if he breaks down sub with Cox or Rasner)
JeterRodriguezSheff
10-07-06, 07:07 PM
Arod for Dontrelle if that happens I will be happy
Willis wouldnt be good in the AL East. Zambrano and id do it in a heartbeat.
A-rod nots going to the Cubs, he wants to win the WS and the chances of that happening with the Cubs are slim to none.
nnysiny
10-07-06, 07:07 PM
A-Rod and Randy Johnson should be murdered and dumped in the East River. Then take the money and sign Matsuzaka and Zito and hire a hitman for Jaret Wright to get out of his buyout.
Tony Soprano, is that you?
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 07:08 PM
Let's bring Boone Back :D ........and I'm rooting for the Pirates next year, atleast they have no expexctations, that was I won't be let down ;)
BillBuckner
10-07-06, 07:09 PM
Let's bring Boone Back :D ........and I'm rooting for the Pirates next year, atleast they have no expexctations, that was I won't be let down ;)
A little sweet nostalgia. Why not?
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:09 PM
Willis wouldnt be good in the AL East. Zambrano and id do it in a heartbeat.
Zambrano doesn't throw strikes. Another disaster in the AL.
Cano is better than average at 2B. He is young and athletic enough to make the change and he has played other positions than 2B in his minor league career.
Yankees took on money in lieu of giving up better/more players to Texas. If NY took on all of the deal than I seriously doubt Texas would have sniffed Soriano.
Yes, like every single middle infield prospect ever, Cano started out as a SS. But, even at 18 and in his first season, he spent the majority of time at 2B. You don't move a guy off the stronger position at that young an age unless you really need to, and with Cano they needed to. He's played a few games at third too, but didn't stick. Look, if you move Cano off of a position that he can play to one that he is largely unfamiliar with and one that plays very, very differently, I think you run a huge risk of harming his game. It just doesn't seem worth it.
As for the money issue, I again have to ask how its any different? Right now, if you trade ARod, you trade Texas' money with him. That means that the team getting him gets him for exactly the same price the Yankees got him for. The only way to get better players is to include more money on top of the Texas money.
JeterRodriguezSheff
10-07-06, 07:11 PM
Zambrano doesn't throw strikes. Another disaster in the AL.
Control can be fixed. You cant teach Zambrano's stuff.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:12 PM
Zambrano doesn't throw strikes. Another disaster in the AL.
I wouldnt say he doesnt throw strikes...he has a wild streak and is prone to BB, but he's still one of the best 10 pitchers in MLB. This, coming from a Cards fan, is hard for me to say, but it doesnt make it any less true.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:12 PM
Control can be fixed. You cant teach Zambrano's stuff.
If control could be fixed, Kyle Farnsworth wouldn't be Kyle Farnsworth. With all due respect, what makes you so sure that his control issues can be fixed?
derek-jeter.org
10-07-06, 07:13 PM
I'm excited to see what's going to go down this offseason. I've never been an Alex fan so I wouldn't cry if he left but I don't necessarily feel that he should go. Actually, I really don't care either way.
I'm all for giving credit when it's due but when the Yankees so consistently blow hot and cold, how do you give credit and who do you give it to? Forgive me if I'm a tad reluctant to raise my glass to friggin' Kenny Rogers.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:13 PM
[quote=Stan Musial]I wouldnt say he doesnt throw strikes...he has a wild streak and is prone to BB[quote]
Doesn't that pretty much by definition mean that he doesn't throw strikes? If so, let's see how successful he is when he has to face the Blue Jays and Red Sox in about 1/4 of his starts.
Zambrano doesn't throw strikes. Another disaster in the AL.
Where did you get that Carlos Zambrano doesn't throw strikes? He has 210 strikeouts this season a lot more than RJ. The injury history is a bigger concern.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:14 PM
I'm excited to see what's going to go down this offseason. I've never been an Alex fan so I wouldn't cry if he left but I don't necessarily feel that he should go. Actually, I really don't care either way.
I'm all for giving credit when it's due but when the Yankees so consistently blow hot and cold, how do you give credit and who do you give it to? Forgive me if I'm a tad reluctant to raise my glass to friggin' Kenny Rogers.
I think Kenny deserves a lot of credit. He pitched a gem. His breaking balls were filthy...with that being sad, good hitters need to find a way to hit, which did not happen.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:16 PM
[quote=Stan Musial]I wouldnt say he doesnt throw strikes...he has a wild streak and is prone to BB[quote]
Doesn't that pretty much by definition mean that he doesn't throw strikes? If so, let's see how successful he is when he has to face the Blue Jays and Red Sox in about 1/4 of his starts.
When he gets excited, he tends to walk some. It's not like he walks everyone. His K/BB is good as he's a K-type pitcher. I've watched him enought to know he'd be successful anywhere.
Karstens joins the pen and long relief/spot starter, or as our 5th.
I forgot about Karstens. That would be a great spot for him.
And Zambrano is nasty. His control isn't great, but he's young and he's a workhorse. I'd be worried about Willis in the AL because his strikeout numbers aren't great and I'm terrified of Florida pitchers. Zambrano or Santana.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:17 PM
The injury history is a bigger concern.
?
He's been a workhorse....what injury concern?
Except being meatgrinded by Dusty, he hasnt been injured.
He's the anti-Prior/Wood.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:18 PM
Where did you get that Carlos Zambrano doesn't throw strikes? He has 210 strikeouts this season a lot more than RJ. The injury history is a bigger concern.
He also walked 115, which led the major leagues, and it wasn't even really that close.
GreenGrass
10-07-06, 07:18 PM
Things are still too raw to make any kind of rational judgements right now.
ryanthe13th
10-07-06, 07:19 PM
Torre, Mattingly, Sheffield, Wright, Pavano, Lidle.
newa6eoutlw
10-07-06, 07:21 PM
dontrelle wont be good in the Al just like Melky is a fourth outfielder right. Have you ever seen Dontrelle pitch he is a like a lil kid out there we need more emotion from this team and more youth. I am tired of the blank stares and stoicism of this team Dontrelle would do to this team what damon did loosen up the corporate atmosphere around here
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:21 PM
[quote=Ghost of Thurman][quote=Stan Musial]I wouldnt say he doesnt throw strikes...he has a wild streak and is prone to BB
When he gets excited, he tends to walk some. It's not like he walks everyone. His K/BB is good as he's a K-type pitcher. I've watched him enought to know he'd be successful anywhere.
He led the majors in walks. He was 513th out of 675 pitchers in the majors this year in BB/9. And if he gets excited in Chicago, what makes you think he's gonna stay cool in Fenway?
Regardless of what happened, I still feel Cashman did a great job this season and I hope George lets him continue what he is doing. Once we get our youngs guys up here, we'll be fine.
PeteRFNY
10-07-06, 07:21 PM
It's time to purge and rebuild. If we had done that three years ago like we should have, the team would be ready to compete by now. Instead, we keep putting really expensive but not very rugged paint on a rusting hull.
I'd rather go into rebuilding mode for a few years than not keep doing what we've been doing and getting eliminated from the post-season. Either way, we don't win anything, and at least you have something to show for rebuilding.
Back up the truck and get the U-Hauls.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:22 PM
Regardless of what happened, I still feel Cashman did a great job this season and I hope George lets him continue what he is doing. Once we get our youngs guys up here, we'll be fine.
On that I agree, Cashman did a great job.
Regardless of what happened, I still feel Cashman did a great job this season and I hope George lets him continue what he is doing. Once we get our youngs guys up here, we'll be fine.
I agree. But I'm worried George won't think that clearly.
Zimmers' Helmet
10-07-06, 07:23 PM
When you allow a combined 16 runs in the final two losses, it's pretty obvious where the problem lies...Chien Ming Wang is the only starting pitcher who has earned the right to return to the rotation in '07.
With $32 million coming off the books between Mussina and Sheffield; Cashman would be best served re-investing that money into starting pitching.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:25 PM
[quote=Stan Musial][quote=Ghost of Thurman]
He led the majors in walks. He was 513th out of 675 pitchers in the majors this year in BB/9. And if he gets excited in Chicago, what makes you think he's gonna stay cool in Fenway?
It's a valid concern and one that I would be worried about. However, if I could get him and A-Ram for A-Rod, that may be the best possible offer any team would make.
Z's peripherals are good. His WHIP would be stellar if not for the BB, but predominantly power pitchers are prone to the occasional BB...however, with Z the BB is more than occasional, thus your point is valid. However, he has pitches to succeed anywhere. Just MO.
As long as A-Rod is gone I'm happy.
Everyone is soooooooooooooo quick to trade away 40 home runs and a 125 rbis. And the thing is, at $16 million dollars, A-Rod is a bargain.
It's time to purge and rebuild. If we had done that three years ago like we should have, the team would be ready to compete by now. Instead, we keep putting really expensive but not very rugged paint on a rusting hull.
I'd rather go into rebuilding mode for a few years than not keep doing what we've been doing and getting eliminated from the post-season. Either way, we don't win anything, and at least you have something to show for rebuilding.
Back up the truck and get the U-Hauls.
Yep, after 2004's debacle it was time to blow up the time. Now it's easy to see.
Slioman
10-07-06, 07:30 PM
Jaret Wright's start today did him in.
I, personally, would have liked to see him pitch from the ailing 'pen, though.
Does anyone know who is out there besides Zito and Schmidt when it comes to free agent pitching? I could see George telling Cashman to make a run at Zito but I'm not sure he's consistant enough for the price tag he will demand.
Bambino22
10-07-06, 07:32 PM
and thus begins the winter of our discontent.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:33 PM
[quote=Ghost of Thurman][quote=Stan Musial]
It's a valid concern and one that I would be worried about. However, if I could get him and A-Ram for A-Rod, that may be the best possible offer any team would make.
Z's peripherals are good. His WHIP would be stellar if not for the BB, but predominantly power pitchers are prone to the occasional BB...however, with Z the BB is more than occasional, thus your point is valid. However, he has pitches to succeed anywhere. Just MO.
If you could get BOTH, sure. But I'd be surprised if we could.
?
He's been a workhorse....what injury concern?
Except being meatgrinded by Dusty, he hasnt been injured.
He's the anti-Prior/Wood.
Injury history is not a good choice of words. It's a question of when he's going to be injured. I read on the Cubs site that he had an MRI on his shoulder.
Additionally, he has been overuse by Baker so his shoulder is still a concern.
dontrelle wont be good in the Al just like Melky is a fourth outfielder right. Have you ever seen Dontrelle pitch he is a like a lil kid out there we need more emotion from this team and more youth.
I've seen Dontrelle pitch. I saw him pitch 8 shutout innings against the Rockies at Dolphin Stadium last year in which he looked amazing. But I'm extremely wary of Florida pitchers.
AMYanks
10-07-06, 07:34 PM
Other than Wang, I couldn't care less if the entire starting rotation is re-done. Of course, I can't imagine Johnson walking away from $16M, but if he is starter 4 or 5, then that's not bad.
?
He's been a workhorse....what injury concern?
Except being meatgrinded by Dusty, he hasnt been injured.
He's the anti-Prior/Wood.
He's had back and elbow problems and missed starts here and there as a result. He's also had a bit of a sore shoulder as a result of the back.
RIYankee23
10-07-06, 07:35 PM
Then let's talk about his May or his September?
How about that?
He's not as streaky as Giambi, that's for sure.
Giambi's gotten alot more "big freaking hits" this year. He had a bad ALDS but he did hit a 2 run HR in game 1, while Arod did nothing.
For as impressive as Arod's stat line is for the regular season what does it matter if he can't do anything for the last 2 years in the playoffs? Even Torre showed his lack of confidence in him by putting him 6th and 8th in the lineup.
There's no reason for Arod, the supposed best player in baseball, to hit .257, have 13 errors, and 81 K's in 80 at bats. He's too good for that. That stretch was the most important part of the year when Sheff, Matsui, and Cano were out. That's when he was needed most. After Jete, Abreu, and Damon came up huge in Boston, Arod then went on a tear in the end of August with the division already wrapped up.
For the pressure in NY to get into Arod's head that much, that shows that he simply isn't cut out to be here.
A top notch starter and a top notch reliever is more valuable.
dabomb2045
10-07-06, 07:35 PM
I've seen Dontrelle pitch. I saw him pitch 8 shutout innings against the Rockies at Dolphin Stadium last year in which he looked amazing. But I'm extremely wary of Florida pitchers.
We need to stay away from NL pitchers
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:37 PM
He's had back and elbow problems and missed starts here and there as a result. He's also got a sore shoulder.
Anyone would if Dusty was the manager...:)
and thus begins the winter of our discontent.
The sixth in a row.:o
RIYankee23
10-07-06, 07:38 PM
[quote=Stan Musial][quote=Ghost of Thurman]
If you could get BOTH, sure. But I'd be surprised if we could.
why? This is the 2 time MVP we're talking about here. You know the guy who in an "off year" still hit 290, 35 HR's, 121 RBI's.
The Cubs are perennial losers, the fans are starting to get fed up, they need to do something to create some excitement.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:38 PM
We need to stay away from NL pitchers
you wouldnt take...
Carpenter
Webb
Oswalt
Zambrano
I think people's perception of AL supremecy is way over-rated. Sorry, but those 4 guys are as good as anyone in the AL not named Santana
b_joseph
10-07-06, 07:39 PM
you wouldnt take...
Carpenter
Webb
Oswalt
Zambrano
I think people's perception of AL supremecy is way over-rated. Sorry, but those 4 guys are as good as anyone in the AL not named Santana
He probably meant...''Stay away from the available NL pitchers''
dabomb2045
10-07-06, 07:39 PM
you wouldnt take...
Carpenter
Webb
Oswalt
Zambrano
I think people's perception of AL supremecy is way over-rated. Sorry, but those 4 guys are as good as anyone in the AL not named Santana
We arent getting those guys. But we always seem to get these guys who are good in the NL...come over here and arent anywhere near as good. Willis would fall into that category IMO.
cupcollector99
10-07-06, 07:40 PM
They might wait a few weeks before any real move is made and that makes sense. 120 days till spring training..
ryanthe13th
10-07-06, 07:40 PM
Giambi's gotten alot more "big freaking hits" this year. He had a bad ALDS but he did hit a 2 run HR in game 1, while Arod did nothing.
And Giambi ended up throwing a ball away in Game 3, going completely cold for the rest of the series. Surprise, he even sat out Game 4 with an injury. If anyone should be traded it is Giambi. He's strictly a designated hitter at this point and he can't even do that consistantly without aggrivating some sort've injury.
For as impressive as Arod's stat line is for the regular season what does it matter if he can't do anything for the last 2 years in the playoffs? Even Torre showed his lack of confidence in him by putting him 6th and 8th in the lineup.
Which is why Torre needs to be fired. A-Rod was fine going into the playoffs. Sheffield hitting fourth was stupid even though I supported Sheffield being in the lineup. Moving him to 6th told everyone that Torre had zero confidence in A-Rod. You put your guys in the best position to succeed and Torre didn't do that. He hasn't done it for 6 years now.
There's no reason for Arod, the supposed best player in baseball, to hit .257, have 13 errors, and 81 K's in 80 at bats. He's too good for that. That stretch was the most important part of the year when Sheff, Matsui, and Cano were out. That's when he was needed most. After Jete, Abreu, and Damon came up huge in Boston, Arod then went on a tear in the end of August with the division already wrapped up.
81Ks in 80 AB's? It's possible to strike out 81 times when going to the plate 80 times? Wow.
For the pressure in NY to get into Arod's head that much, that shows that he simply isn't cut out to be here.
A top notch starter and a top notch reliever is more valuable.
So who plays third? Who matches his production?
genius-24
10-07-06, 07:41 PM
I want A-rod gone(NOT BECAUSE I THINK HE SUCKS OR ANY OF THAT GARBAGE) but because the drama revolving around him imo has a really bad influence on the team. However I don't want to just give him away for nothing, hopefully we can get something great in return.
I also want Torre gone for obvious reasons. He should've been fired after 2004 and its clear that his laid back style is NOT what this team needs. Not to mention his absolute inability to manage a bullpen.
Moose(I don't think he's a choker like some morons think) but I don't see him staying healthy/having a good year next year.
Randy Johnson, but I don't see any way he's off the team next year.
Oh and Sheff. I hope he ends up on the redsox.
Wright...nuff said.
Couldn't have said it much better, seriously.
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 07:42 PM
I say we just clone Jeter....;) 162-0
Everyone is soooooooooooooo quick to trade away 40 home runs and a 125 rbis. And the thing is, at $16 million dollars, A-Rod is a bargain.
If you can get a couple of good players you do it.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:44 PM
We arent getting those guys. But we always seem to get these guys who are good in the NL...come over here and arent anywhere near as good. Willis would fall into that category IMO.
That may be a good point. It is also what happens when a guy like Pavano gets signed after a career year knowing he would be over-paid and over-hyped.
Beckett seems to not be adjusting so well either.
I say we just clone Jeter....;) 162-0
Game 1 would have been interesting, but they still would have lost games 2-4. How embarrassing, to go 162-0 and get knocked out in the 1st round.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:45 PM
[quote=Ghost of Thurman][quote=Stan Musial]
why? This is the 2 time MVP we're talking about here. You know the guy who in an "off year" still hit 290, 35 HR's, 121 RBI's.
The Cubs are perennial losers, the fans are starting to get fed up, they need to do something to create some excitement.
OK, let me restate. If we could get BOTH, I'd CONSIDER it. Particularly given our need for pitching and how tight the pitching market will be (even though I am less high on Zambrano than most seem to be)
But as I wrote a couple pages ago, I'm not REALLY interested in trading A-Rod unless we're able to structure it such that we get comparable talent back IN A SINGLE PLAYER. The only way I see that happening -- and it's a stretch -- is if we send A-Rod and $$$ to the Angels for absolute top shelf prospects, and flip those (plus maybe some bits) to Florida for Miguel Cabrera. Personally, I'd rather keep A-Rod and replace Torre with Piniella in an effort to help him reach his potential.
you wouldnt take...
Carpenter
Webb
Oswalt
Zambrano
I think people's perception of AL supremecy is way over-rated. Sorry, but those 4 guys are as good as anyone in the AL not named Santana
It would take Oswalt, and even in his current state Lidge for A-Rod and nothing less. And the twins are not trading Santana.
One thing people forget, A-Rod has a NO TRADE CLAUSE and has stated that he will not waive it under any condition. I know that this year could change his mind but if he left with no World Series that would severely hurt his reputation even more then it already is. And he has yet to say that he would change his mind.
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 07:47 PM
let's just root for the Mets....screw the Yanks
DON'T KNOCK THE ROCK
10-07-06, 07:47 PM
Here's my realistic list of who likely will not be back:
A-Rod: it just isn't working here, and the front office will beg him to waive his no trade clause so we can hopefully get some pitching
Sheffield: no way they pick up his option, and there's no position for him
Torre: three years in a row of postseason embarrassments could be enough to get him fired
Wright: his contract will probably be bought out and the money spent elsewhere for someone else who can go more than 80 pitches per start
Lidle: free agent who will not likely be back
Mussina: his option won't be picked up; it will be interesting to see if they negotiate something else, but he's old, his velocity isn't there anymore, and he's not reliable to make 30-35 starts anymore without breaking down
I would like to waive bye-bye to Randy Johnson as well, but like Kevin Brown, he's not leaving any money on the table and is virtually untradeable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the first post I actually agree with for the most part. I don't want to see Torre, Sheffield, Wright or Mussina ever again in pinstripes. If Mussina could have held onto that 3-1 lead in Game 2, maybe we'd be headed for Game 5 tomorrow. Plus, Moose breaks down every year. No thanks.
As for ARod, I hate to see him go but it might be better for all concerned. The Angels are reportedly interested in him. If we could get Ervin Santana and Jared Weaver plus a prospect then I'd consider the deal. We need some young pitching. If ARod stays, I would force him to wear either #11 or Torre's #6. I would tell the attendants not to allow any #13's in the clubhouse.
If you can get a couple of good players you do it.
You need more than a couple of good players. You need to get players who are better than what you could get on the free agent/international market. I think it's going to be very hard for another team to give up that kind of major league talent for a guy they think they can get on the cheap, so you take a big risk on some prospects who might one day be better than what you could get on the international/free agent market. If all you get back is the same as what's out there for free, then you are stepping backwards.
Stan Musial
10-07-06, 07:48 PM
[quote=RIYankee23][quote=Ghost of Thurman]
OK, let me restate. If we could get BOTH, I'd CONSIDER it. Particularly given our need for pitching and how tight the pitching market will be (even though I am less high on Zambrano than most seem to be)
But as I wrote a couple pages ago, I'm not REALLY interested in trading A-Rod unless we're able to structure it such that we get comparable talent back IN A SINGLE PLAYER. The only way I see that happening -- and it's a stretch -- is if we send A-Rod and $$$ to the Angels for absolute top shelf prospects, and flip those (plus maybe some bits) to Florida for Miguel Cabrera. Personally, I'd rather keep A-Rod and replace Torre with Piniella in an effort to help him reach his potential.
Yes..I can somewhat agree with that. I'm not a proponent of trading A-Rod away as I dont think the Yanks will be able to get equal or fair value for him. And, that is the most important aspect of dealing him.
The issue here is that there is no ONE SINGLE player, save Albert Pujols, that is (supposedly) as good as him. Therefore, I think it is impossible to get one single player for him...2 to 3 good to great players is more probable/realistic
You need more than a couple of good players. You need to get players who are better than what you could get on the free agent/international market. Failing that, you take a big risk on some prospects who might one day be better than what you could get on the international/free agent market. If all you get back is the same as what's out there for free, then you are stepping backwards.
The free agent market is weak. Arod can get you players better than whats out there.
The free agent market is weak. Arod can get you players better than whats out there.
Better than DM and Zito? I'll believe it when I see it.
I could see Mussina going to some NL team and completely dominating similar to what Pedro did last year.
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 07:51 PM
Where is David Cone when you need him?
Better than DM and Zito? I'll believe it when I see it.
First of all DM hasn't been posted yet and there is going to be a lot of competition for Zito.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 07:52 PM
Can't trade RJ, no-trade clause.
Doesnt mean you can't trade him. Means he has to approve a deal. If the Yanks could make a deal that sends RJ to an NL West team where we eat most of the salary it could work. Hear me out.
Why it works for RJ: He has a better shot to win 300 in one of the big NL parks out west where it'll be nice and warm like he likes. Thats what he seems to really be after and he has no chance in New York.
Why it works for the NL West team: They get a guy that will still be pretty good because he'll be facing weaker offenses in bigger parks in a pitcher's league and they pay very little.
Why it works for NY: RJ isnt worth his 16 mil and would never come close to earning it in 07. However, if we trade him we could get prospects or a player(s) who could contribute to the Yanks and would probably come closer to earning that money for a longer period of time than RJ would for 1 more year.
DON'T KNOCK THE ROCK
10-07-06, 07:53 PM
[quote=RIYankee23][quote=Ghost of Thurman]
(Part of post) Personally, I'd rather keep A-Rod and replace Torre with Piniella in an effort to help him reach his potential.
Interesting thought. It depends on what ARod would react best to. Torre is very reserved and quiet while Pinella would have benched ARod after Game 2. I was thinking more along the lines of Larry Bowa who is fiery or Joe Girardi, but Pinella might just bring the REAL ARod out.
genius-24
10-07-06, 07:54 PM
[quote=Ghost of Thurman][quote=RIYankee23]
Interesting thought. It depends on what ARod would react best to. Torre is very reserved and quiet while Pinella would have benched ARod after Game 2. I was thinking more along the lines of Larry Bowa who is fiery or Joe Girardi, but Pinella might just bring the REAL ARod out.
Interesting point.
cmaff05
10-07-06, 07:54 PM
Joe Torre needs to be handed his working papers. Not because that we lost the series. Because he doesn't know how to manage a bullpen.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 07:54 PM
I'd say bye to...
Sheffield
Matsui
Mussina
Villone
Myers
Wright
Pavanoshow
Lidle
KEEP ALEX - Trust me on this...as much as i want to trade him for this year and this post season... you can't let him go..it will come back to haunt you, and you won't get any stud pitchers for him anyway.
KEEP Giambi - He can be a monster still, and his arm may be bad, but he can atleast catch the ball, unlike Sheffield. Plus he's an OBP machine. Keep Andy Phillips for backup.
Keep Johnson - He's not walking away from 16 million, not gonna be able to trade him, good enough for 2nd / 3rd starter.
Keep Damon - One of the best leadoff men in the league...still has pop.. fights off pitches like crazy...GOOD FOR YOUR CLUBHOUSE.
Keep Melky - Great defense, shown some pop with his bat, can get on, good for your club house, nice smile, don't think he knows what pressure is, because he always seems to come through like Jeter.
Keep Cano - obvious
Keep Jeter - Obvious
Keep Mo - OBVIOUS
Keep Wang - Best pitcher on the staff at home without a doubt... currently the ace of the staff with Moose's problems and Johnson's currently being chased down by AARP. He's young.. and he helps diversify the market :) revenue helper.
Keep Proctor - gets the job done, even when over worked apparently. Could actually be a good 2 inning go to guy for 7th and 8th or 6th and 7th after spring training.
Keep Farnsworth - hit or miss with this guy, but if he's on, he's on. Headcase, but he brings some fire to the back end of the bullpen. Good enough to set up for Mo.
Keep Bruney - He's a big guy and I like him. Will mature well I hope.
Bring in Zito - Let's face it. We ain't gettin Johann or D-train. Zito is reliable and unlike another italian that we know can actually pitch a good game. Probably going to be expensive, but well worth it if you ask me. He's also got a certain calm and cool about himself that makes me think he would do well here.
Bring in Matsuzaka - Sure why not, lose Matsui, pickup Matsuzaka to keep our Japan relations going well. Argueably the best pitcher in Japan. Throws that "Gyro" ball.. could do well here. Worth the gamble for one year if you ask me.
Bring UP Hughes or Clippard - need some more Youthful pitching with good stuff a la Chien Ming Wang.
Bring UP Kevin Thompson - With Bernie retired and Matsui / Sheff gone, we need a new 4th outfielder. KT can get the job done. Also good for giving Johnny some rest. Kid can serve as a defensive replacement as well.
SIGN A NEW FRIGGEN BACKUP CATCHER WHO CAN ACTUALLY CATCH AND HIT.
Sign us a new Utility infielder, perhaps a good long reliever and a few lefties in the pen including a LOOGY. Keep Rasner and Karstens around I guess.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 07:55 PM
Anyone think LAA would take Arod in exchange for Santana and Kendrick? We could put Kendrick at 1st Base. He's played there some already.
Wright and Shef are definitely gone. We might as well used the draft picks and stock the farm system with pitchers.
I love Moose, but I think he might be gone as well unless he's willing to take at most a 2 year deal. Moose can serve as a stop-gap until Phillip Hughes is ready.
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 07:55 PM
[quote=Ghost of Thurman][quote=RIYankee23]
Yes..I can somewhat agree with that. I'm not a proponent of trading A-Rod away as I dont think the Yanks will be able to get equal or fair value for him. And, that is the most important aspect of dealing him.
The issue here is that there is no ONE SINGLE player, save Albert Pujols, that is (supposedly) as good as him. Therefore, I think it is impossible to get one single player for him...2 to 3 good to great players is more probable/realistic
Someone on another thread made an excellent point. A-Rod was the best talent in baseball when he was producing 40/125 as a shortstop. But as a 3b, I think - given the circumstances - I'd be pleased to replace him with Cabrera.
As long as we have Jeter at SS, we won't be able to maximize A-Rod's value.
I don't know, but this team's psyche has been shot since the 2004 ALCS, and something significant has to be done.
yankees101
10-07-06, 07:56 PM
i'm just venting my anger. people are delusional though if they don't think jeter is part of the problem over the past couple years.You and the other guy have no idea what youre talking about. Didn't he hit a big homerun in game 5 just last year and get on base for the tying run to come to bat, which happened to be Arod who then GIDP. Jeter is the captain but a part of the problem that needs to go? I don't think so and if you think Jeter should be gone maybe you are delusional.
First of all DM hasn't been posted yet and there is going to be a lot of competition for Zito.
Yet they both seem more likely than getting someone better for a player getting run out of town. Think of it this way: does anyone think that Soriano and Arias could have gotten the likes of Weaver or Zambrano or Oswalt or Willis?
genius-24
10-07-06, 07:56 PM
I'd say bye to...
Sheffield
Matsui
Mussina
Villone
Myers
Wright
Pavanoshow
Lidle
KEEP ALEX - Trust me on this...as much as i want to trade him for this year and this post season... you can't let him go..it will come back to haunt you, and you won't get any stud pitchers for him anyway.
KEEP Giambi - He can be a monster still, and his arm may be bad, but he can atleast catch the ball, unlike Sheffield. Plus he's an OBP machine. Keep Andy Phillips for backup.
Keep Johnson - He's not walking away from 16 million, not gonna be able to trade him, good enough for 2nd / 3rd starter.
Keep Damon - One of the best leadoff men in the league...still has pop.. fights off pitches like crazy...GOOD FOR YOUR CLUBHOUSE.
Keep Melky - Great defense, shown some pop with his bat, can get on, good for your club house, nice smile, don't think he knows what pressure is, because he always seems to come through like Jeter.
Keep Cano - obvious
Keep Jeter - Obvious
Keep Mo - OBVIOUS
Keep Wang - Best pitcher on the staff at home without a doubt... currently the ace of the staff with Moose's problems and Johnson's currently being chased down by AARP. He's young.. and he helps diversify the market :) revenue helper.
Keep Proctor - gets the job done, even when over worked apparently. Could actually be a good 2 inning go to guy for 7th and 8th or 6th and 7th after spring training.
Keep Farnsworth - hit or miss with this guy, but if he's on, he's on. Headcase, but he brings some fire to the back end of the bullpen. Good enough to set up for Mo.
Keep Bruney - He's a big guy and I like him. Will mature well I hope.
Bring in Zito - Let's face it. We ain't gettin Johann or D-train. Zito is reliable and unlike another italian that we know can actually pitch a good game. Probably going to be expensive, but well worth it if you ask me. He's also got a certain calm and cool about himself that makes me think he would do well here.
Bring in Matsuzaka - Sure why not, lose Matsui, pickup Matsuzaka to keep our Japan relations going well. Argueably the best pitcher in Japan. Throws that "Gyro" ball.. could do well here. Worth the gamble for one year if you ask me.
Bring UP Hughes or Clippard - need some more Youthful pitching with good stuff a la Chien Ming Wang.
Bring UP Kevin Thompson - With Bernie retired and Matsui / Sheff gone, we need a new 4th outfielder. KT can get the job done. Also good for giving Johnny some rest. Kid can serve as a defensive replacement as well.
SIGN A NEW FRIGGEN BACKUP CATCHER WHO CAN ACTUALLY CATCH AND HIT.
Sign us a new Utility infielder, perhaps a good long reliever and a few lefties in the pen including a LOOGY, and I think we should be alright.
How the f*ck can u let moose go. He will come cheaper then zito or matz. Matsui hasn't done anything wronge. Arod needs to leave. He is bad karma. See sam's first post on this thread.
bambam51
10-07-06, 07:57 PM
Guys, I didn't watch the games. I was upset Joe didn't guarantee Melky a spot when Sheffield returned so late so I refused to watch. I'm bitter. I really feel Joe had a perfect lineup clicking on all cylinders. He had a multidimensional team offense who could do damage by swiping a base, moving a runner, hitting a sac fly, bunting, singling, doubling, homering, taking a base on balls, etc. etc. He took all that mojo and tinkered with it at the wrong time. But I feel, in my heart of hearts, that George Steinbrenner pushed for Joe to play Sheffield. Sheffield was George's signing mostly and he had so many millions of dollars invested in him. Had Joe not tinkered with a perfect lineup and started Melky instead, he would have been fired if they fell short in the playoffs...but that would've never happened IMHO. Yes, we'll never know for sure and yes I understand we need pitching and yes I'm upset with AROD and the entire team. But the team identity was formed long before Sheffield's return...and Joe stripped them of this. Every hitter hit in the same spot over an extended period. Every hitter learned to play upon the strengths of those before and after him. Then Joe bombed the lineup. Yes our pitching failed us in the end so I can't hold that against Joe but I'm upset and bitter about the Melky situation. Please nobody argue with me about this because I'm feeling testy about it and I don't want it to get any worse. We're all upset. We all have our reasons. I have mine. Let me be.
Goners:
AROD
Sheffield
Mussina
Wright
Villone
Dotel
Myers
Pavano (only in our dreams)
The new crew needs to be young. The new crew needs to be hungry. The new crew needs to know how to pitch and hit the friggin' baseball as a team, as they did once upon a time in 2006.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 07:58 PM
SIGN A NEW FRIGGEN BACKUP CATCHER WHO CAN ACTUALLY CATCH AND HIT.
.
Is that a serious concern for you? You won't find any backup catchers much better than Sal unless you have a rookie you're grooming that can split time with a veteran you are phasing out... and we don't have that. Sal is a catcher pitchers like and he has a mustache... theres nothing wrong with him.
lol, I cant believe the issue of a backup catcher got you to say "friggen" and use all caps,lol
RIYankee23
10-07-06, 07:58 PM
And Giambi ended up throwing a ball away in Game 3, going completely cold for the rest of the series. Surprise, he even sat out Game 4 with an injury. If anyone should be traded it is Giambi. He's strictly a designated hitter at this point and he can't even do that consistantly without aggrivating some sort've injury.
Which is why Torre needs to be fired. A-Rod was fine going into the playoffs. Sheffield hitting fourth was stupid even though I supported Sheffield being in the lineup. Moving him to 6th told everyone that Torre had zero confidence in A-Rod. You put your guys in the best position to succeed and Torre didn't do that. He hasn't done it for 6 years now.
81Ks in 80 AB's? It's possible to strike out 81 times when going to the plate 80 times? Wow.
So who plays third? Who matches his production?
81K's in 80 games. Typo, look at the SI article.
Anyone can match his postseason production.
ChrisV82
10-07-06, 07:58 PM
A-rod
Torre
Mussina
Sheffield
Wright
Bernie
Pavano
I got money on at least half of those being traded or not re-signed. If Johnson retires that would be great. I honestly think the team is in for a major change.
I would like to keep A-Rod, Mussina, and maybe Bernie.
I'm 50/50 with Wright.
I'm about 40/60 against Sheffield.
I would like to see Torre gone.
What can you say about Pavano? Is he going to strain his piggy toe? How can we get rid of him? I hope he actually plays.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 07:58 PM
How the f*ck can u let moose go. He will come cheaper then zito or matz. Matsui hasn't done anything wronge. Arod needs to leave. He is bad karma. See sam's first post on this thread.
How can I let Moose go? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS LAST 6 or so starts. DID YOU NOT SEE HIM LOSE AT HOME IN GAME 2... that's how. We need more youth..
Yet they both seem more likely than getting someone better for a player getting run out of town. Think of it this way: does anyone think that Soriano and Arias could have gotten the likes of Weaver or Zambrano or Oswalt or Willis?
The A-Rod trade was a salary dump.
Anyone think LAA would take Arod in exchange for Santana and Kendrick? We could put Kendrick at 1st Base. He's played there some already.
I think Kendrick will be a good hitter for a 2B, which is where the Angels are putting him now that Kennedy is a free agent, but I don't think he's going to be all that special as a 1B. It's a bit of a waste of his talent to put him there, and in a trade, you are paying for all the value he has at 2B and then wasting it at 1B.
cmaff05
10-07-06, 08:00 PM
How can I let Moose go? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS LAST 6 or so starts. DID YOU NOT SEE HIM LOSE AT HOME IN GAME 2... that's how. We need more youth..
Mussina is the best pitcher on the market and most sure bet. There is no reason not to resign him. He's better than Zito, he's probably better than DM, and he's better than Schmidt.
YankeesMVPDJ2
10-07-06, 08:00 PM
We are the new Red Sox, let's face it....We can't win the big games when it matters....I have seen 4 WS championships in my lifetime, and I truley believe that is all I will see. Before that, I watched a buch of crap, which is exactly what we have put on the field since 03, a bunch of crap....I would rather go back to 92 and watch players like Abbot, Velarde, Mattingly, etc give their hearts out for nothing, just for the game....oh and Jeter is still the man:D
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:00 PM
How can I let Moose go? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS LAST 6 or so starts. DID YOU NOT SEE HIM LOSE AT HOME IN GAME 2... that's how. We need more youth..
How u gonna get youth buddy?
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 08:00 PM
Is that a serious concern for you? You won't find any backup catchers much better than Sal unless you have a rookie you're grooming that can split time with a veteran you are phasing out... and we don't have that. Sal is a catcher pitchers like and he has a mustache... theres nothing wrong with him.
lol, I cant believe the issue of a backup catcher got you to say "friggen" and use all caps,lol
It is of big concern to me. POSADA needs rest!! Alright maybe we just need to sign a catcher than can hit ONCE IN A WHILE. Sorry I didn't think Sal did a good enough job with his bat while with us. His defense was good enough though.
Either Torre or A-Rod has to go. He couldn't have disrespected him more.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:01 PM
I think Kendrick will be a good hitter for a 2B, which is where the Angels are putting him now that Kennedy is a free agent, but I don't think he's going to be all that special as a 1B. It's a bit of a waste of his talent to put him there, and in a trade, you are paying for all the value he has at 2B and then wasting it at 1B.
Kendrick seems like he'd be a fantastic hitter wherever he plays. He showed some power. And he's athletic enough where he could play first base, IMO.
The A-Rod trade was a salary dump.
And in the Yankees case, he's a problem who needs to be dumped Look, I have no problem trading ARod, but there has to be some kind of realism here. People are talking about getting more back for ARod than the Yankees gave up for him, and his value has not gone up.
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:02 PM
If u wanna trade Arod u will have to pay for his salary about 5 mill....what can u get for him idk.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:02 PM
Kendrick seems like he'd be a fantastic hitter wherever he plays. He showed some power. And he's athletic enough where he could play first base, IMO.
The only way I want Kendrick at 1b is if they trade Matsui and keep Melky. Otherwise, fit him for a 3b mitt.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 08:02 PM
Mussina is the best pitcher on the market and most sure bet. There is no reason not to resign him. He's better than Zito, he's probably better than DM, and he's better than Schmidt.
If we keep Mussina, then we need to sign Matsuzaka. Or bring up Hughes or Clippard. I don't want to have to deal with Pavano if he decides to pitch.
b_joseph
10-07-06, 08:03 PM
How can I let Moose go? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS LAST 6 or so starts. DID YOU NOT SEE HIM LOSE AT HOME IN GAME 2... that's how. We need more youth..
Moose should stay..the youth will come with Hughes,Wang and Clipp
Edit: looks like you said this in the post above mine
Lawnmower
10-07-06, 08:03 PM
The Yanks have tried to re-make this team every year but the one ingredient you can't ignore is they do not develop enough young starting pitching. Where are the Verlanders and Bondermans on our team? Instead we have an ancient Randy Johnson, a past his prime Mussina and guys you can never rely on like Jaret Wright, Cory Lidle and Carl Pavano. Wang is the only guy who has been developed from the farm system since Pettitte.
Dump Cashman, hire a Terry Ryan type and change the philosophy of this organization by allocating resources towards scouting and developing young pitchers. It's all about pitching. Even in this series, Mussina has got to hold the Game 2 lead and RJ and Wright could not keep their team in the game and Yankees fell behind which caused the offense to tighten up and press. George is a great owner but his unlimited resources actually hurt the team in some ways because Cashman gets lazy and he throws money at over the hill quick fixes instead of building a foundation down on the farm.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:03 PM
It is of big concern to me. POSADA needs rest!! Alright maybe we just need to sign a catcher than can hit ONCE IN A WHILE. Sorry I didn't think Sal did a good enough job with his bat while with us. His defense was good enough though.
Again, you wont get a backup that will give much offense. The Sox had that opportunity with Bard and blew it. I really think the only way you get offense out of a backup catcher is, again, if he's a youngster being phased into the starting role.
And in the Yankees case, he's a problem who needs to be dumped Look, I have no problem trading ARod, but there has to be some kind of realism here. People are talking about getting more back for ARod than the Yankees gave up for him, and his value has not gone up.
True, but the Yankees are only paying him $16 million. If they pick up say $4 million per year, he's an incredible value.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 08:04 PM
How u gonna get youth buddy?
How we gonna get youth? There are two guys sitting in our minor league system that without a doubt could pitch in the majors right now, despite what some overly cautious fans may think. Theres two options right now. The other comes in the name of Barry Zito, he's a bit younger than Moose if I recall ;) Sure it would be an INCREASE in payroll, but I also think it would be an increase in consistency.
yankees101
10-07-06, 08:04 PM
Either Torre or A-Rod has to go. He couldn't have disrespected him more.I would say both. Arod causes a distraction because of the drama around him, just as someone said earlier. Torre's style ain't working, when our pitchers don't get an obvious call we need him to protect his pitchers once in a while, not Lou crazy but it would be better than to see him sit there and shake his head in disbelief and move on. He doesn't have the arms he used to have and now that he has to manage the bullpen more we are in trouble in back to back games.
cmaff05
10-07-06, 08:04 PM
If we keep Mussina, then we need to sign Matsuzaka. Or bring up Hughes or Clippard. I don't want to have to deal with Pavano if he decides to pitch.
Pavano is a legitimate third or fourth starter on this team. If he is healthy, he'll be a big asset to our staff. But since he hasn't been healthy since he got here, I share your skepticism.
And I do believe we need to resign Moose and get DM.
And Hughes and Clippard should not have a spot in the rotation. Give them some time.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:05 PM
The only way I want Kendrick at 1b is if they trade Matsui and keep Melky. Otherwise, fit him for a 3b mitt.
It depends on whats more available on the market. A decent 3bman or 1st baseman. Giambi isnt going to play much 1b either way.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:05 PM
I have seen 4 WS championships in my lifetime, and I truley believe that is all I will see.
No way. We get some more new blood in here next year and we've got the best team in baseball. Will they play like it? I'd take my chances with them and hope Joe shows more confidence in our system which now happens to ready to produce some more legit talent. We're getting better. Cut ties with the prima donnas and give this team a new look.
Either Torre or A-Rod has to go. He couldn't have disrespected him more.
No kidding, 8th?
yankees101
10-07-06, 08:06 PM
The Yanks have tried to re-make this team every year but the one ingredient you can't ignore is they do not develop enough young starting pitching. Where are the Verlanders and Bondermans on our team? Instead we have an ancient Randy Johnson, a past his prime Mussina and guys you can never rely on like Jaret Wright, Cory Lidle and Carl Pavano. Wang is the only guy who has been developed from the farm system since Pettitte.
Dump Cashman, hire a Terry Ryan type and change the philosophy of this organization by allocating resources towards scouting and developing young pitchers. It's all about pitching. Even in this series, Mussina has got to hold the Game 2 lead and RJ and Wright could not keep their team in the game and Yankees fell behind which caused the offense to tighten up and press. George is a great owner but his unlimited resources actually hurt the team in some ways because Cashman gets lazy and he throws money at over the hill quick fixes instead of building a foundation down on the farm.Randy, Wright, Pavano....all Stein and Tampa ideas weren't they??
dabomb2045
10-07-06, 08:06 PM
No way. We get some more new blood in here next year and we've got the best team in baseball. Will they play like it? I'd take my chances with them and hope Joe shows more confidence in our system which now happens to ready to produce some more legit talent. We're getting better. Cut ties with the prima donnas and give this team a new look.
What is this new blood you wanna get?? They will overpay for Zito and Matsuazaka, and it will bite them in the ass again.
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:07 PM
How we gonna get youth? There are two guys sitting in our minor league system that without a doubt could pitch in the majors right now, despite what some overly cautious fans may think. Theres two options right now. The other comes in the name of Barry Zito, he's a bit younger than Moose if I recall ;) Sure it would be an INCREASE in payroll, but I also think it would be an increase in consistency.
Guys in minors are atleast 1yr away from ML. Zito is sh*t. he cant pitch against AL east teams. He is gonna cost RJ money with 5 yrs at min. Moose is gonna cost us 20mill for 2 years. Zito will just f*ck up our pitching staff for years to come. Just like pavano, RJ and wright did since 05.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 08:07 PM
Pavano is a legitimate third or fourth starter on this team. If he is healthy, he'll be a big asset to our staff. But since he hasn't been healthy since he got here, I share your skepticism.
He's a legitimate headcase is all Carl Pavano is. The only thing he is consistent at is giving me headaches.
Kendrick seems like he'd be a fantastic hitter wherever he plays. He showed some power. And he's athletic enough where he could play first base, IMO.
Again, he's got power for a 2B, but you do need some spots in the lineup that are legit power threats. And of course he can play 1B...he's a 2B. The issue is, though, that his value is tied up in the most difficult position he can play. So, you have to trade for him as if you are going to play him at 2B...what you give up has to be equal to that, because someone who does want to play him at 2B will give up that value. If you then move him off of 2B, you've basically overpayed.
And he isn't a 3B. If he were, the Angels, desperate to improve there this year, wouldn't have given up on that experiment so quickly. He just doesn't have the arm.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:07 PM
It depends on whats more available on the market. A decent 3bman or 1st baseman. Giambi isnt going to play much 1b either way.
Well, if you're penciling in Giambi at DH, you had better find a better option than benching Melky in favor of Matsui.
This team needs to get younger and cheaper and hungrier and faster with more stamina and more fight and more to play for.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:08 PM
Randy, Wright, Pavano....all Stein and Tampa ideas weren't they??
Yes. Dumping Cashman is the dumbest move I've heard people suggest. He has this team headed in the right direction.
TheTinoMobile
10-07-06, 08:09 PM
Guys in minors are atleast 1yr away from ML. Zito is sh*t. he cant pitch against AL east teams. He is gonna cost RJ money with 5 yrs at min. Moose is gonna cost us 20mill for 2 years. Zito will just f*ck up our pitching staff for years to come. Just like pavano, RJ and wright did since 05.
Pavano was an NL pitcher what a surprise... Wright was also, and coming off an injury no less. Johnson is elderly, what do you expect. Zito is an AL pitcher, IN THE POST SEASON right now (in the ALCS no less, where are we?), beat the best pitcher in the American League and the first choice for Cy Young, and isn't injury prone.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:10 PM
Well, if you're penciling in Giambi at DH, you had better find a better option than benching Melky in favor of Matsui.
This team needs to get younger and cheaper and hungrier and faster with more stamina and more fight and more to play for.
Well, I think Giambi isn't moveable. He has too big a contract, a NTC, and he still produces. I don't know what happens with Matsui. If he's dealt I have no argument, if we keep him I can't argue either. After losing in the first round, the Abreu deal has turned into a nuisance because it keeps Melky out of RF.
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:10 PM
Pavano was an NL pitcher what a surprise... Wright was also, and coming off an injury no less. Johnson is elderly, what do you expect. Zito is an AL pitcher, IN THE POST SEASON right now (in the ALCS no less, where are we?), beat the best pitcher in the American League and the first choice for Cy Young, and isn't injury prone.
If u cant win in regular season, then PS is meaningless, u should no that.
BronxBomberJoe
10-07-06, 08:10 PM
We need new blood that wants to win, this team looked like they didn't care if they won or not. Trade A-Rod and get some great pitching. Let Bernie, Lidle, Wright all go. Resign Sheffield and Mussina. And in my opinion someone needs to take the heat for this, Torre shoudl be gone as well. I love the guy but this team needs a new voice in that clubhouse.
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:11 PM
Well, I think Giambi isn't moveable. He has too big a contract, a NTC, and he still produces. I don't know what happens with Matsui. If he's dealt I have no argument, if we keep him I can't argue either. After losing in the first round, the Abreu deal has turned into a nuisance because it keeps Melky out of RF.
U cant trade matsui. He gives us so much revenue intenational wise. Him will traded is bad image. No need to put blame where its not deserved.
SkooterPhil#10
10-07-06, 08:12 PM
A-rod
Torre
Mussina
Sheffield
Wright
Bernie
Pavano
I wish.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:12 PM
Yes. Dumping Cashman is the dumbest move I've heard people suggest. He has this team headed in the right direction.
Agreed. Cashman will have a field day gutting this pathetic squad. His hands are no longer tied and some big contracts coming off the books: Namely AROD, Mussina and Sheffield. If he trades anybody, it won't be a homegrown starter or position player or farm hand.
I can't wait.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:14 PM
Well, I think Giambi isn't moveable. He has too big a contract, a NTC, and he still produces. I don't know what happens with Matsui. If he's dealt I have no argument, if we keep him I can't argue either. After losing in the first round, the Abreu deal has turned into a nuisance because it keeps Melky out of RF.
Then trade Abreu or force Giambi to play 1b if you can't trade Matsui. Melky stays. That's where Joe went wrong.
dabomb2045
10-07-06, 08:14 PM
He's a legitimate headcase is all Carl Pavano is. The only thing he is consistent at is giving me headaches.
I cant wait for the next Pavano injury in March.
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:14 PM
Then trade Abreu or force Giambi to play 1b if you can't trade Matsui. Melky stays. That's where Joe went wrong.
Dude u cant trade abreau. This is the guy who got us here. Trading abreau would be one of the worst moves.
We are the new Red Sox, let's face it
Actually, we're the new Atlanta Braves:(
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:15 PM
Dude u cant trade abreau. This is the guy who got us here. Trading abreau would be one of the worst moves.
No. The guy you absolutely cannot trade is the homegrown who was snubbed.
Sam2448
10-07-06, 08:17 PM
I'd like to get rid of A-Rod as much as the next guy. I'm sick of him being the focus of attention. It makes things hard in the clubhouse and is bad for chemistry. But I simply don't think we can trade him. We won't get equal value. Despite all his flaws, he's more talented than anyone else in baseball. And his salary and no trade clause makes him impossible to trade except to the Angels, White Sox, Boston, and maybe a couple other teams. And there's no doubt in my mind that he would just come back and bite us in the ass. We could get some great young pitchers from the Angels, but put A-Rod on that team with Guerrero... we would regret it.
I'm not a huge Zito fan, but I don't think there's anyone better out there, and we need pitching. I'd keep Moose just because he's better than just about anyone out there. And I'd plug Hughes into the rotation. I
genius-24
10-07-06, 08:17 PM
No. The guy you absolutely cannot trade is the homegrown who was snubbed.
That's y torre should be fired.
Yes. Dumping Cashman is the dumbest move I've heard people suggest. He has this team headed in the right direction.
Who the hell said that? If anything like you said he is trying to get this team back in the direction of the mid to late 90's teams.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:20 PM
That's y torre should be fired.
BS. Steinbrenner pushed for his boy Sheffield, not Cashman, not Joe.
Sheff and George go way back. Torre should not be fired. He deserves one last chance to coach for a team without egos you have to massage and drama you have to deal with. Joe deserves a fresh team, a coachable team. And Guidry did what he could but we need younger arms and watch Guidry turn them into machines.
Mark my words. AROD, Sheffield and Mussina will not be Yankees in 2007.
And I'd plug Hughes into the rotation. I
Rushing Hughes into the majors is not the answer. 2008, not '07, for Hughes.
gangstarr1984
10-07-06, 08:21 PM
If there's one person we should keep for showing heart. It's Proctor
Ghost of Thurman
10-07-06, 08:22 PM
U cant trade matsui. He gives us so much revenue intenational wise. Him will traded is bad image. No need to put blame where its not deserved.
The real problem with trading Matsui is that he's part of the solution, not the problem.
It would be kind of nice if he could learn to play 1b, though. That would solve a lot of problems....
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:22 PM
If there's one person we should keep for showing heart. It's Proctor
And if there's one guy we should replace to help share workload with Proctor it's that Myers bum!
I think it's pretty much impossible to plug Hughes in next year. This was the first season that his season hasn't been cut short due to some kind of minor injury, but even then, he was held to incredibly strict pitch and inning counts. That can increase next year, but it can't increase in one year to the level of an everyday major leaguer. So, what you are left with is, given no growing pains (and that's a big given) a better version of Wright.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:24 PM
The real problem with trading Matsui is that he's part of the solution, not the problem.
It would be kind of nice if he could learn to play 1b, though. That would solve a lot of problems....
Matsui needs to learn 1b. The OF configuration of Melky, Damon and Abreu instills confidence in our staff and saves runs. We don't touch that combo. You build around it and do what you can. If that means forcing Giambi to play 1b when Matsui DH's, so be it. If that means forcing Matsui to learn 1b, so be it.
26 and counting
10-07-06, 08:24 PM
Just wondering, why do so many people want Farnsworth gone? I think he could be a good seventh inning guy next year.
Is it because he can't pitch back-to-back days or multiple innings in the same game?
It would be kind of nice if he could learn to play 1b, though. That would solve a lot of problems....
Agreed.
JeterRodriguezSheff
10-07-06, 08:25 PM
Rushing Hughes into the majors is not the answer. 2008, not '07, for Hughes.
The things is, he might be ready in 07. Give him a shot in spring training, if he doesnt make it see how he is doing at Columbus during the all star break.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:25 PM
And if there's one guy we should replace to help share workload with Proctor it's that Myers bum!
You cant blame Myers for Torre not knowing how to use him. Myers has to go, but it should be with no ill feelings towards him.
Slioman
10-07-06, 08:26 PM
Just wondering, why do so many people want Farnsworth gone? I think he could be a good seventh inning guy next year.
Is it because he can't pitch back-to-back days or multiple innings in the same game?
I've no problem with Farnsy but I do think we should be getting a new bullpen hand.
You cant blame Myers for Torre not knowing how to use him. Myers has to go, but it should be with no ill feelings towards him.
Is there another top-notch LOOGY available?
Panamaniac42
10-07-06, 08:27 PM
You cant blame Myers for Torre not knowing how to use him. Myers has to go, but it should be with no ill feelings towards him.
Oh, I thought letting him sit on the bench for 2 weeks and then bringing him in to face 6 righties in the row to "get some work" is the right way to use him.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:28 PM
I think it's pretty much impossible to plug Hughes in next year. This was the first season that his season hasn't been cut short due to some kind of minor injury, but even then, he was held to incredibly strict pitch and inning counts. That can increase next year, but it can't increase in one year to the level of an everyday major leaguer. So, what you are left with is, given no growing pains (and that's a big given) a better version of Wright.
Rasner and Karstens earned the right to vye for the 5th starter role. We have S. White, Clippard and Hughes ready to take over midseason. We have to keep them young and hungry. My staff: Zito, Wang, Matsuzaka, Johnson, Karstens/Rasner (1/2 season) replaced by Clippard or Hughes. Maybe you get a pitcher for AROD but at this point I'd take Betemit and a prospect.
Panamaniac42
10-07-06, 08:28 PM
Is there another top-notch LOOGY available?
I think Joe Beimel has fallen out of favor with the Dodgers (kidding).
I'm in favor of keeping Myers.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:29 PM
Is there another top-notch LOOGY available?
For years we all dreamed of a LOOGY. Then we got one and it was like "well, big deal." Its an overrated concept and the Yanks need to find someone who can pitch effectively to lefties and righties to take Myers' spot.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:29 PM
You cant blame Myers for Torre not knowing how to use him. Myers has to go, but it should be with no ill feelings towards him.
Joe used him just fine in game 1. Myers isn't a lights-out loogy and he didn't get the job done in the playoffs. He only pitches to one batter and we need more work horses in the pen. Does Detroit have a loogy? Heck no.
I think Joe Beimel has fallen out of favor with the Dodgers (kidding).
I'm in favor of keeping Myers.
I am too. It's not like lefty specialists are falling off the trees out there. But the Yanks need a manager who knows what to do with him.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:30 PM
For years we all dreamed of a LOOGY. Then we got one and it was like "well, big deal." Its an overrated concept and the Yanks need to find someone who can pitch effectively to lefties and righties to take Myers' spot.
You said it!
RIYankeeFan
10-07-06, 08:31 PM
That's y torre should be fired.
Amen.
Joes loyalty FTL. Melky earned his role as our future LF. Joe basically spit on him. What was wrong with Matsui DH and Sheff on the bench to PH?
I'm all for Girardi back here. Look at the impact he had with Florida. They loved him. He knew how to handle the youngsters. Look at Leyland, he came in and after the first bad loss he put his foot down. His team is going to the ALCS.
When was the last time you saw Torre get excited? You'd swear he was Bill Belichicks brother. 10 years at the helm, Torre is 4-6. Not bad, but something isn't working!! Does he even get through to the players?
Like someone said, this team needs to be gut out. Kinda like what KC started doing. If you can't help the future, pack your bags and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I think A-Rod has to go to. He's the new Kevin Brown. He brings so much drama that isn't needed. The media fuels this, but lets face it. This guy isn't clutch at all. And because he's the most paid player in baseball, it will always be in the headlines in NY til he retires.
Rasner and Karstens earned the right to vye for the 5th starter role. We have S. White, Clippard and Hughes ready to take over midseason. We have to keep them young and hungry. My staff: Zito, Wang, Matsuzaka, Johnson, Karstens/Rasner (1/2 season) replaced by Clippard or Hughes. Maybe you get a pitcher for AROD but at this point I'd take Betemit and a prospect.
I'd rather see one of Karstens/Rasner as the swing man and one of them in AAA. It is a huge advantage to have legit pitching depth that you can shuttle into the rotation, and if you go into the year with both of these guys on the 25 man and one in the rotation, you've lost that. The result is things like Sydney Ponson getting starts.
The problem with plugging in Clippard/Hughes is that you are plugging them in for the 2nd half, and that's the half they are likely to wear down in, especially when the workload and expectations change.
brosiusbuddy
10-07-06, 08:32 PM
Joe used him just fine in game 1. Myers isn't a lights-out loogy and he didn't get the job done in the playoffs. He only pitches to one batter and we need more work horses in the pen. Does Detroit have a loogy? Heck no.
Game 1 showed exactly why its an overrated concept. You bring him in for one specific purpose and if he can't do that you're screwed because he can't pitch to more than 1 hitter at a time.
cmaff05
10-07-06, 08:32 PM
Just wondering, why do so many people want Farnsworth gone? I think he could be a good seventh inning guy next year.
Is it because he can't pitch back-to-back days or multiple innings in the same game?
I've not given up on Farnsworth, I think he can be a very valuable member of our team next year. But he's gotta pitch better than he did this year. And we definitely need another setup man to go along with Farnsworth.
And oh yea, we need a manager who isn't going to kill them by the end of the year.
For years we all dreamed of a LOOGY. Then we got one and it was like "well, big deal." Its an overrated concept and the Yanks need to find someone who can pitch effectively to lefties and righties to take Myers' spot.
I agree 10000%! I don't understand the point of having a guy that can only pitch to 1-2 guys max a game. It may make sense if your starters go 7-8 innings, but ours don't.
bambam51
10-07-06, 08:33 PM
Just wondering, why do so many people want Farnsworth gone? I think he could be a good seventh inning guy next year.
Is it because he can't pitch back-to-back days or multiple innings in the same game?
Farnsworth's not going anywhere.
wileedog
10-07-06, 08:33 PM
The problem with plugging in Clippard/Hughes is that you are plugging them in for the 2nd half, and that's the half they are likely to wear down in, especially when the workload and expectations change.
I would 1000x rather lose breaking in a staff of new pitchers than a repeat of the past two years losing with old guys.
I would 1000x rather lose breaking in a staff of new pitchers than a repeat of the past two years losing with old guys.
That's fine, but bringing up guys early for the sake of breaking them in when you are going to need to shut them down doesn't accomplish that. I never said they need to go get old guys, but they also don't need to just treat their young guys willy nilly.
Slioman
10-07-06, 08:36 PM
I would 1000x rather lose breaking in a staff of new pitchers than a repeat of the past two years losing with old guys.
Then we'll have people hounding us for "Having a ridiculous payroll team and 'rebuilding'" just like how the Red Sox were hounded.
Lawnmower
10-07-06, 08:38 PM
Yes. Dumping Cashman is the dumbest move I've heard people suggest. He has this team headed in the right direction.
Ok, he deserves a pass (even though you & I know he'll be out by mid-week) because this is his first year with full control but what are we talking about with regards to "heading in the right direction." This is not the Cleveland Indians, it's the NYY and we just bowed out of the playoffs in a monumental upset. If anything, this team is about to change directions drastically.
The Yankees are a "now" team and when you build that primarily on offense, which runs hot and cold, you put your team a risk when they go in a hitting slump. If Cashman stays, he's got to become more creative like his counterparts and build this team from the inside out.
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