View Full Version : Possible Trade for Armas Jr.?
Spaceboy88
06-19-06, 11:26 AM
According to ESPN Insider: Jim Bowden is interested in making a deal involving one or more of the Nat's veteran players, including Soriano, Guillen, Armas Jr. and Livan Hernandez.
"When asked if he would make a deal with the Yankees -- despite the Yanks' supposed lack of quality young players -- Bowden told the Washington Post, "[the Yankees' farm system] is not that dry. It's wet enough for me.""
I don't know about you guys, but I'd LOVE to have a guy like Armas on the Yankees. He's a good, young strikeout pitcher and could end up being the Shawn Chacon of 2006.
According to ESPN Insider: Jim Bowden is interested in making a deal involving one or more of the Nat's veteran players, including Soriano, Guillen, Armas Jr. and Livan Hernandez.
"When asked if he would make a deal with the Yankees -- despite the Yanks' supposed lack of quality young players -- Bowden told the Washington Post, "[the Yankees' farm system] is not that dry. It's wet enough for me.""
I don't know about you guys, but I'd LOVE to have a guy like Armas on the Yankees. He's a good, young strikeout pitcher and could end up being the Shawn Chacon of 2006.
Bowden wants to impress his new boss. He will try to secure a top prospect for a troubled, inconsistent guy like Armas. I think we would be better served offering Bowden someone fairly useless for Ryan Church.
JavyVazquezIsSick
06-19-06, 11:31 AM
He isn't really that good, isn't really that young, not really worth anything IMO...
Spaceboy88
06-19-06, 11:37 AM
He isn't really that good, isn't really that young, not really worth anything IMO...
This is what a lot of people said/thought about Chacon last year.
Am I wrong or isn't Armas a product of the Yankee farm system? You guys who value more highly the home-grown should remember that.
I remember him being traded, foolishly, to the Red Sox to get Mike Stanley back, at the end of 97, I believe. Duquette then packaged him with our long lost Pavano buddy for Pedro. Quite a history.
Frank the Tank
06-19-06, 11:45 AM
Am I wrong or isn't Armas a product of the Yankee farm system? You guys who value more highly the home-grown should remember that.
I remember him being traded, foolishly, to the Red Sox to get Mike Stanley back, at the end of 97, I believe. Duquette then packaged him with our long lost Pavano buddy for Pedro. Quite a history.
Yes. He was traded with Jim Mecir for Stanley and then about 5 months later, was part of the Pavano for Pedro trade.
At this point, I'd rather have his father coming out of the bullpen every 5 days.
Soriambi
06-19-06, 11:46 AM
This is what a lot of people said/thought about Chacon last year.
I think those are two different situations, though. Chacon was in Colorado, where the altitude could have been having an effect on the way he pitched. Plus, this year, Chacon has shown a lot of the same tendencies as he had in Colorado (extremely high walk rate, trouble going deep into games because he throws too many pitches, etc.) He's been pretty awful in 2006 so far. I'm not very interested in Armas Jr. I don't see too much there to impress me.
IronCaballo4
06-19-06, 11:46 AM
Bowden said wet
YankeeStripes
06-19-06, 11:49 AM
I'd give them someone like Henn for Armas.
DontHateOnNumber2
06-19-06, 11:50 AM
Armas Jr. is pretty shaky. I wouldn't give up any top prospects for him, no way. Shawn Chacon circa 2005 doesn't even compare to Armas' potential IMO.
Yes. He was traded with Jim Mecir for Stanley and then about 5 months later, was part of the Pavano for Pedro trade.
At this point, I'd rather have his father coming out of the bullpen every 5 days.
I would rather have his father at his peak helping out in the OF and with the offense, that is for sure!!!
You could make a decent argument that Armas Jr. has had a better career than Chacon. That isn't to say that he's any good, however.
NelsonMuntz
06-19-06, 12:54 PM
He isn't really that good, isn't really that young, not really worth anything IMO...
Agree 100%.
stupidpunchline
06-19-06, 12:55 PM
If we get Armas, can we spin him and Pavano off for Pedro?
These are the type of guys I would give up for Armas; Sardinha, Shelly Duncan, Kevin Howard, Jeff Karstens, etc.
FromPagstoRiches
06-19-06, 01:14 PM
First off, Bowden and wet in the same sentence just isn't right. Secondly, no thanks on Armas. We already have our share of guys whose shoulder/arm could fall off in the not-so-distant future. Go get Jason Schmidt. or Oliver Perez. Or wait until the Sox dump Clement and then pick him up and straighten him out and enjoy the Sox paying for him to do well here.
First off, Bowden and wet in the same sentence just isn't right. Secondly, no thanks on Armas. We already have our share of guys whose shoulder/arm could fall off in the not-so-distant future. Go get Jason Schmidt. or Oliver Perez. Or wait until the Sox dump Clement and then pick him up and straighten him out and enjoy the Sox paying for him to do well here.
We aren't getting Jason Schmidt so we can put that to rest. Oliver Perez is a project, he can't help the team this year.
bobbymagee
06-19-06, 01:17 PM
If we get Armas, can we spin him and Pavano off for Pedro?
:roflmao:
JeffWeaverFan
06-19-06, 01:25 PM
The problem with Armas is is he really better than what we already have?
Iknowcool
06-19-06, 02:30 PM
Greg Maddux. His contract expires after this season, he likely would come cheap prospect wise, he has playoff experience, and he could be a very good number four or five starter.
Spaceboy88
06-19-06, 03:03 PM
The problem with Armas is is he really better than what we already have?
If we can get him for a mid-level prospect(s), why not? If it doesn't work out, you're not giving up all that much. At this point, there are no "sure things" in the Yankees roatations save for Mussina (knock wood) and with a sparse trade market for pitching by the deadline, a guy like Armas that could be attained for realitively cheap could be a great ROI.
Greg Maddux. His contract expires after this season, he likely would come cheap prospect wise, he has playoff experience, and he could be a very good number four or five starter.
Maddux will avoid the AL East. He's a smart guy.
Yanknut023
06-19-06, 04:17 PM
Gred Maddux does not pitch deep into games. So the bullpen would be needed.
Spiker101
06-19-06, 04:22 PM
Greg Maddux. His contract expires after this season, he likely would come cheap prospect wise, he has playoff experience, and he could be a very good number four or five starter.
Yeah, and if you pointed a .45 Colt semiautomatic at the head of his wife, he might agree to come to New York. He despises NY for whatever reason.
Spiker101
06-19-06, 04:26 PM
Armas has a 4.18 ERA, which in that league and in that ballpark, ain't so hot, brother. He also has problems with his control, and Torre just loves that in a pitcher. Livan would probably be of more interest. He's not good but he usually gets his keep into the seventh or eighth.
SheffRocks11
06-19-06, 04:28 PM
Well I hope he pitches a perfect game tonight. :)
JeffWeaverFan
06-19-06, 04:32 PM
If we can get him for a mid-level prospect(s), why not? If it doesn't work out, you're not giving up all that much. At this point, there are no "sure things" in the Yankees roatations save for Mussina (knock wood) and with a sparse trade market for pitching by the deadline, a guy like Armas that could be attained for realitively cheap could be a great ROI.
I think Bowden would ask for way too much for a pitcher who I don't think is any good.
South Facing Epitaph
06-19-06, 04:34 PM
He's only gone 7 innings ONCE all year, this is exactly the pitcher the Yankees should avoid.
NelsonMuntz
06-19-06, 04:35 PM
Armas has a 4.18 ERA, which in that league and in that ballpark, ain't so hot, brother. He also has problems with his control, and Torre just loves that in a pitcher. Livan would probably be of more interest. He's not good but he usually gets his keep into the seventh or eighth.
That's only because Frank Robinson never takes him out. Livan has a 5.18 ERA in the NL in an extreme pitcher's park. He's not an upgrade over anyone in our current rotation. Look at his WHIP and BAA. I don't want Armas, but I definitely don't want Hernandez either.
Spiker101
06-19-06, 05:12 PM
That's only because Frank Robinson never takes him out. Livan has a 5.18 ERA in the NL in an extreme pitcher's park. He's not an upgrade over anyone in our current rotation. Look at his WHIP and BAA. I don't want Armas, but I definitely don't want Hernandez either.
If Chacon is going to continue to pitch to a 5.89 ERA and barely manage to get his team into the fifth inning, I take Livan in a heartbeat, assuming they're not really asking for anything for him, and they won't be.
I'm not sure I don't prefer Livan to Wright as well, if he continues to implode at pitch 90. I like a number five guy who can throw a lot of pitches.
conkermaniac
06-19-06, 05:22 PM
You could make a decent argument that Armas Jr. has had a better career than Chacon. That isn't to say that he's any good, however.
He's pitching in the NL, in a pitcher's park, and half the games haven't been in Coors Field.
38Special
06-19-06, 05:25 PM
If we can get him for a mid-level prospect(s), why not? If it doesn't work out, you're not giving up all that much. At this point, there are no "sure things" in the Yankees roatations save for Mussina (knock wood) and with a sparse trade market for pitching by the deadline, a guy like Armas that could be attained for realitively cheap could be a great ROI.
So we can give away a mid-level prospect for nothing like that stupid Lawton trade?
He's pitching in the NL, in a pitcher's park, and half the games haven't been in Coors Field.
Armas has a much better career k/bb ratio than Chacon.
He also has a slightly better career era+, which takes into account park factors. He's never had a year like Chacon had last year, but his career numbers are still better.
AnibalTheCannibal
06-19-06, 07:31 PM
Third poor start in a row. Three and two third innings, four runs and a runner on second.
NelsonMuntz
06-19-06, 07:35 PM
If Chacon is going to continue to pitch to a 5.89 ERA and barely manage to get his team into the fifth inning, I take Livan in a heartbeat, assuming they're not really asking for anything for him, and they won't be.
I'm not sure I don't prefer Livan to Wright as well, if he continues to implode at pitch 90. I like a number five guy who can throw a lot of pitches.
But you're missing the point. Robinson just leaves him in games even when he's giving up runs. Torre won't. And that's not necessarily a criticism of Torre. Livan is simply not that good of a pitcher. He's not an upgrade over anything we already have, and I'm not real high on either Chacon or Wright right now.
Mattpat11
06-19-06, 07:57 PM
"[the Yankees' farm system] is not that dry. It's wet enough for me.""
. Sounds like Bowden is asking for a bottle of JD
38Special
06-19-06, 08:12 PM
But you're missing the point. Robinson just leaves him in games even when he's giving up runs. Torre won't. And that's not necessarily a criticism of Torre. Livan is simply not that good of a pitcher. He's not an upgrade over anything we already have, and I'm not real high on either Chacon or Wright right now.
i just watched armas get the piss beat out of him by the sox and i dont think Torre could have helped it
NelsonMuntz
06-19-06, 08:47 PM
i just watched armas get the piss beat out of him by the sox and i dont think Torre could have helped it
Yeah I don't want Armas or Livan anywhere near this team.
Spiker101
06-19-06, 10:04 PM
But you're missing the point. Robinson just leaves him in games even when he's giving up runs. Torre won't. And that's not necessarily a criticism of Torre. Livan is simply not that good of a pitcher. He's not an upgrade over anything we already have, and I'm not real high on either Chacon or Wright right now.
Livan isn't a particularly good pitcher, though he's better than what he's shown so far this season. What he is a workhorse. He's thrown 200 plus innings every season since 1999 and has averaged 250 each of the past two years. He's averaged over 110 pitches thrown per game started over his entire career. You can allow him to take a beating and it won't affect him., physically. That has value.
If Chacon continues to pitch to a 5.86 ERA while routinely failing to get out of the fifth or sixth inning, I'd much rather have Livan give up the same numbers because it would mean less wear and tear on the bullpen. And you never know, you might get lucky and he gets on a roll, sort of how Chacon did last season. but it's a decision that doesn't have to be made for another month and I'm hoping Chacon gets his act together.
Yankyfan
06-19-06, 10:06 PM
How about we give Jim free Taxi service for a year..;)
buntsalot2
06-20-06, 12:34 AM
[quote=Spiker101]Livan isn't a particularly good pitcher, though he's better than what he's shown so far this season. What he is a workhorse. He's thrown 200 plus innings every season since 1999 and has averaged 250 each of the past two years. He's averaged over 110 pitches thrown per game started over his entire career. You can allow him to take a beating and it won't affect him., physically. That has value.
quote]
that would help keep the BP fresher. hard to knock all those innings as say compared to Wright, RJ, and Chacon. okay then, Wright or Chacon for Livan, straight up. oh, k, and a few bucks and trucks of fungo balls.
ryanthe13th
06-20-06, 03:14 AM
I'd take Livan. He's just having a poor year and is bound to break out of this sooner or later. He isn't this bad and he can go deep into games.
The Dynasty
06-20-06, 05:43 AM
I'd take Livan. He's just having a poor year and is bound to break out of this sooner or later. He isn't this bad and he can go deep into games.
Exactly. A rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Wang, and Livan (I'm figuring Chacon would get traded) is as solid as it gets when it comes to the playoffs...and regular season for that matter. I'd then put a young guy as our 5th during the season.
Unfortunately, even with that rotation, our pen sucks. Oh well.
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 08:44 AM
I'd take Livan. He's just having a poor year and is bound to break out of this sooner or later. He isn't this bad and he can go deep into games.
His number this year are practically identical to the numbers he posted last year. His ERA is over 5.00 pitching in an extreme pitchers park in the NL and his WHIP and BAA are awful. On top of that, he's making $8,000,000 this year. I've seen Hernandez pitch a lot the last two years. Trust me, we don't want him.
In Mo I Trust
06-20-06, 08:45 AM
At least Livan gives you innings, something several pitchers on the staff do not.
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 08:49 AM
At least Livan gives you innings, something several pitchers on the staff do not.
He goes deep into games because Robinson doesn't take him out. How long do you think Torre is going to leave him in a game if he's giving up 6 runs in 5 IP?
Arynduil
06-20-06, 08:58 AM
If we get Armas, can we spin him and Pavano off for Pedro?
This cracked me up - nice one. But we all know only Dan Duquette can trade for Pedro.
In Mo I Trust
06-20-06, 09:03 AM
He goes deep into games because Robinson doesn't take him out. How long do you think Torre is going to leave him in a game if he's giving up 6 runs in 5 IP?
Going 7 or 8 innings and giving up 4 or 5 runs would have value on this staff. He's not great, but I'd take him over Chacon or Wright.
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 09:09 AM
Going 7 or 8 innings and giving up 4 or 5 runs would have value on this staff. He's not great, but I'd take him over Chacon or Wright.
Yeah, I would take that too. The problem is that Livan is more likely to give up 6 runs over 5 or 6 innings in the AL which means he won't make it to the 7th or 8th very often.
flymick24
06-20-06, 01:01 PM
steven white would probably offer just as much as tony armas could
hellonewman
06-20-06, 04:57 PM
His number this year are practically identical to the numbers he posted last year.No, they're not:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernali01.shtml
His ERA+ has been league average or better for three years (granted, his WHIP spiked up some from 2004 to 2005). If the Nationals are giving him away (and they'd better be with that salary), I'd certainly take the gamble that with a change of scenery, he can do better than what we've been getting from Jaret Wright or from Nibbles.
I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but when the Mets recently asked the Nats about the availability of Livan they were told it would take Lastings Milledge :lol:
Spiker101
06-20-06, 05:35 PM
He goes deep into games because Robinson doesn't take him out. How long do you think Torre is going to leave him in a game if he's giving up 6 runs in 5 IP?
You can make your case without exaggerating. Six runs in five innings is a 10.80 ERA. Livan's ERA is half that. Would Torre leave Livan in if he gave up three runs in five innings as the number five starter, if his pen was tired, you damn right he would, especially if the game was lopsided one way or the other. The reduction of wear and tear on the bullpen would be a huge plus.
As for Robinson being the reason he's thrown a lot of innings, that's just factually incorrect. He threw 216 innings in '02 when his manager wasn't Frank Robinson. He threw 221 innings in '01 and his manager wasn't Frank Robinson. He threw 240 innings in 2000 and guess who his manager wasn't? Livan is just a throw-back, a workhorse who eats up innings. And if Chacon and Wright don't start getting the game into the seventh inning every one in a while, Livan has to be considered, since he won't cost a bunch of prospects.
Lastly, his career ERA is 4.16, which isn't great but he's clearly pitching below his expected level so far this season, which allows one to at least hope he'll have a better second half.
In Mo I Trust
06-20-06, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I would take that too. The problem is that Livan is more likely to give up 6 runs over 5 or 6 innings in the AL which means he won't make it to the 7th or 8th very often.
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Those are his last 7 starts. Not too bad. Sure he'll pitch worse in the AL, I don't think he'd pitch to an era over 10.00.
He's not very good, but he's better than Chacon and Wright.
DontHateOnNumber2
06-20-06, 05:57 PM
I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but when the Mets recently asked the Nats about the availability of Livan they were told it would take Lastings Milledge :lol:
Bowden is seriously smoking some reefer. Every trade rumor, report, update, etc. that is mentioned regarding the Nats always has him asking for the other organization's top prospect. This is real-life MLB, not like the video games Jimmy.
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 06:30 PM
No, they're not:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hernali01.shtml
His ERA+ has been league average or better for three years (granted, his WHIP spiked up some from 2004 to 2005). If the Nationals are giving him away (and they'd better be with that salary), I'd certainly take the gamble that with a change of scenery, he can do better than what we've been getting from Jaret Wright or from Nibbles.
His ERA was better last year but his peripherals have been in decline that last two years. I think it's a moot point anyway if the Nationals are throwing around names like Lastings Milledge as the asking price.
hellonewman
06-20-06, 06:52 PM
After that display in Boston tonight, maybe I better re-think this Livan thing. :( :mad:
Yankyfan
06-20-06, 06:55 PM
Maybe we can trade Mike Stanley back.:D
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 07:14 PM
You can make your case without exaggerating. Six runs in five innings is a 10.80 ERA. Livan's ERA is half that. Would Torre leave Livan in if he gave up three runs in five innings as the number five starter, if his pen was tired, you damn right he would, especially if the game was lopsided one way or the other. The reduction of wear and tear on the bullpen would be a huge plus.
As for Robinson being the reason he's thrown a lot of innings, that's just factually incorrect. He threw 216 innings in '02 when his manager wasn't Frank Robinson. He threw 221 innings in '01 and his manager wasn't Frank Robinson. He threw 240 innings in 2000 and guess who his manager wasn't? Livan is just a throw-back, a workhorse who eats up innings. And if Chacon and Wright don't start getting the game into the seventh inning every one in a while, Livan has to be considered, since he won't cost a bunch of prospects.
Lastly, his career ERA is 4.16, which isn't great but he's clearly pitching below his expected level so far this season, which allows one to at least hope he'll have a better second half.
Did you see his line tonight? Do you think Torre is going to leave him in for 7 - 8 innings if he's getting abused like that?
Spiker101
06-20-06, 07:19 PM
Did you see his line tonight? Do you think Torre is going to leave him in for 7 - 8 innings if he's getting abused like that?
Are you basing your argument on one outing? Come on now. Every pitcher has a game like this every once in a while, including Jaret Wright and Shawn Chacon.
NelsonMuntz
06-20-06, 07:48 PM
Are you basing your argument on one outing? Come on now. Every pitcher has a game like this every once in a while, including Jaret Wright and Shawn Chacon.
No I'm basing my opinion on his declining peripherals and from watching him pitch the last season and a half. He would be a disaster in the AL.
Quangormo
06-21-06, 11:03 AM
"When asked if he would make a deal with the Yankees -- despite the Yanks' supposed lack of quality young players -- Bowden told the Washington Post, "[the Yankees' farm system] is not that dry. It's wet enough for me.""
I don't know about you guys, but I'd LOVE to have a guy like Armas on the Yankees. He's a good, young strikeout pitcher and could end up being the Shawn Chacon of 2006.
Tony's no ace, but he's a decent middle-of-the-rotation starter. He could add depth to the Yankees' rotation, and he is young enough to be around a few years.
He started in the Yankee organization, got traded to Boston to reacquire Mike Stanley, and then was packaged to Montreal (interestingly, with Pavano) for Peedrool.
I'm not willing to give up a prime prospect like Hughes to reacquire him, but some of the guys in the notch just below that would be fair game. (I might up the price if the Nats want to send Sori home too, but I'd need assurances that he could be signed longterm.)
Given the possibility that both Sori and Guillen will be traded, the Nationals probably want young OFs. While the Yankees don't have any prime young superstar outfielders (Rudy Guillen is about as close as you get), both KT and Reese are nice players. (This assumes that Melky is unavailable.)
The Yankees can afford to trade one of Tyler Clippard or Matt DeSalvo. Not both, and neither if Hughes goes, but one of these can be traded. Clippard probably has more appeal.
Do you think the Nationals would like to have Rasner back? A friend of mine who's a Nats fan said that it would be typical of Bowden to "get Rasner back and say he's improved our pitching."
Relievers they probably don't need. Cordero, Majewski, and Rauch are three pretty good ones and next year Luis Ayala, who was very solid for them in 2005, will return. Bill Bray has had mostly terrific outings, but one bad game blew up his ERA.
And I don't think they would have that much use for Eric Duncan, as Ryan Zimmerman (whom I think should be NL Rookie of the Year) is at 3B and our old friend Nick Johnson is locked in at 3B. In addition, among their top prospects are 1B Larry Broadway and 3B Kory Casto. (I'd be teaching those guys outfield if I were running the Nationals.)
So waht can we give for someone like Armas that the Nats would want? An OF like KT, Reese, or Guillen plus a pitcher like Clippard or De salvo should do it. If we can get Church, I'd throw in someone like Bronson Sardinha and/or Colter Bean. Do you think we could get Stanton in the package?
Of course, what I'm willing to deal goes up a good bit should Sori be in the package.
SoxFanCO
06-24-06, 05:47 PM
Armas is, of course, a trip to the DL waiting to happen. How many trips has he made as an Expo then Nat?
Further, his stuff just isn't that good. Decent fastball, some movement... but Boston raked him, and based on his results in the NL I think the AL would continue to rake.
He's worth a low-level prospect, maybe, but the Yanks would not get an innings eater, and what they would get just isn't that good. Too many health problems over the years. Think Wright without the fastball.
Yankees1962
06-24-06, 05:56 PM
Armas is, of course, a trip to the DL waiting to happen. How many trips has he made as an Expo then Nat?
Further, his stuff just isn't that good. Decent fastball, some movement... but Boston raked him, and based on his results in the NL I think the AL would continue to rake.
He's worth a low-level prospect, maybe, but the Yanks would not get an innings eater, and what they would get just isn't that good. Too many health problems over the years. Think Wright without the fastball.
He's already back on the DL. He was placed there yesterday.
TheMelkMan
06-24-06, 07:21 PM
I'd take Livan over Tony Armas, but I don't really want either of them, especially since they'd probably both tank in the AL, Jim Bowden is asking for an insane amount for them, and I think we have better options both in the minor leagues (Steven White) and elsewhere in the trade market.
I don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but when the Mets recently asked the Nats about the availability of Livan they were told it would take Lastings Milledge
For Milledge, the Mets might as well go after Zito or Willis. There is no way in hell Livan is worth even half of that.
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